Capped Actuals

[Hoots]

During CAS's recent tours around the stations, it was intimated that the bureaucracy surrounding JPA and Capped Actuals would be reduced, does anyone know if the paperwork trail is going to be reduced with capped actuals and if so, when?

I would also be intrested to know how the admin staff around the stations are coping with the extra paperwork created by capped actuals. I know it's a pain for the aircrew and groundies where I am how are the truckie fleet finding it?

[Severance]

No idea. The only thing capped in the sandpit are the oil wells:}

Joking aside, it's a real pain and I think even our lord and masters agree. Paper trail is epic and I'm convinced even a 10% audit will take years. I heard a rumour from a mate's mate's wife's neighbour that it may well all come grinding to a halt soon and go to a fixed rate depending on geographical areas. Hostees have something like that don't they? Hey, that sounds rude.........

[Spotting Bad Guys]

Been on an ex in the USA for about a week now - total UK personnel involved will reach about 100. The poor DAO is ALREADY up to his ears in receipts. What a stupid system - a poorly implemented idea, and nothing more than an excuse for saving money.

Bring back rates!

RANT OFF

SBG

[sonicstomp]

System at Waddo is now de facto rates.....

In theory, one signature to say you have complied with the rules and no receipts have to be produced (unless you have individual expenditure over the threshold of course)...

[uncle peter]

I'm no longer in the mob but keep up to date via various ex studes of mine throughout tha bazaars. I'm glad I left when I did as these guys are having to spend hours upon hours sorting out imprests when they should be in crew rest or flying the a/c home - not sifting through a mountain of paperwork and explaining their take on a new system that apparently very few people properly understand.

According to rumour a quick fix was proposed and supported by the upper echelons and very nearly made it; but got vetoed at the last minute by the army. Another reason that I'm glad I left. As i remember it the army very rarely (if ever) used the imprest system, so how they got to veto a system essentially for reducing the admin burden on the RAF makes the mind boggle. Surely this should have been a case of "this is whats happening - any questions", or at very least get the vetoing green 1-2-3-4* to do a week in the life of an AT imprest holder.

Flight Safety, it seems, no longer has the sway or importance it once had which is disappointing from an external perspective.:(

[SirToppamHat]

Can you calim individual expenditure over the threshold? I thought that was the idea of the cap. Mind you, I was a bit hacked off when it was suggested that my people were caning the system because they were claiming the full amounts for their rates. Only when it was pointed out the this was because they were actually incurring greater costs than the rates provided for (with receipts) did the criticisms ease off.

It must be an absolute nightmare for those on extended dets. Sonicstomp that sounds very interesting at Waddo.

STH

[Chris Griffin]

Apparently the capped actuals will cost upwards of £3 million more per year than the old rates system. So in summary;

1. It costs more
2. It takes longer to administrate by all parties
3. It's almost impossible to understand and keep up with weekly changes
4. Flight safety issues various

apart from 1-4 above it's perfect. :ugh:

[Fox2long]

STH, Having been on one of the first "long" dets post JPA the capped actuals system is a darn nightmare!!! Mainly saw it on the Aircrew side but guys were so busy filling out the paperwork they were not getting sortie prep done until the main brief was about to start. Not only does this cut down the chances to spot mistakes it also meant delays on some sorties!!! The groundcrew were so engrossed in not losing out on their own cash it was the only subject of conversation when on the line. This is a Flight Safety issue. :ugh: :ugh::ugh: :ugh:

[EODFelix]

Just to add fat to the fire....... it appears that the JPA ruling on receipts having to be retained for a year may be incorrect. Civil Servants HRMS system insists on 3 years PLUS the current year (iaw Inland Revenue guidance) as well as receipts for expenditure under £5.

Although unit staff may not be interested in auditing your expenditure after a year Hector the Collector may well be (especially all the truckies with their cases of receipts!!!!).

JPA Project staff ascertain they have a dispensation from the taxman but so far have been unable to produce it when asked.

[Pontius Navigator]

Good mornng EOD Felix, not near the A1 are we?

Anyway you are quite right about that difference between CS and Mil. The application of the 3 year rule is also interesting. Apart from the short term (one year?) potential for audit, the 3 year retention is, as you say, for Hector. Now it is recognised that Hector might conclude that the Chateau Laffite '61 was a bit excessive when Vin d'table d'kwiksave was more in keeping with the spirit of the rules. Hector might then make an assessment that an additional £60 tax be due.

The civil service has said that they, and not the individual, will pay that difference.

If you were paying attention you will have noticed two other features of the example. One it is about alcohol - half a bottle per evening meal - and is clearly not capped.

Curious, one who wrote the rules?








Absolutely nothing to do with the membership of a trades union or not.:}

[Pontius Navigator]

It was explained, about 6-8 years ago by a 2* that the move from a Rate 1 for an overnight absence was seen as a cash-in-hand perk and had to be stopped.

It particularly affected the MT drivers at Stafford who were on the road Monday-Thursday and slept in their cabs. It gave them a nice little tax-free bonus for anti-social hours and a sweetener given their low pay.

Despite this CHBS came in and they lost their perk. Whereas the previous 'automatic' £50 or so was replaced by the equally automatic £60 odd for a CHBS hotel, en suite, TV etc.

Yes, it was acknowledged to cost more but it was 'fairer' and stopped people getting a tax-free perk.

Many years before that the Strike dictat was that the service would pay for your accommodation (removed the need for a pup-tent at SAC HQ VOQ) but would give you money for food so you were free to chose and eat or not.

Naturally many would chose to spend in a BX and minimise solids input. Now with our new fitness consciousness we are encouraged to fill our faces up to a cap or beyond. Don't you love joined up thinking?

[Mmmmnice]

I must say that the whole JPA thing fits in nicely with the general sitch featuring few a/c to play with and even fewer opportunities to score any actuals/rates. We seem to spend more time going for the Green-walled Hilton option - so between that and the time spent eating sand/dust, the closest I get to claiming for anything is hearing you guys saying how difficult it is!! Is it true I could claim up to a fiver (self-certified and no need for a receipt)? - or do I need to ask HR Flight about that? ha ha

[WPH]

I've recently seen a letter to an individual from AFPAA regarding Daily Subsistence. A serviceman has been given authority to claim expenses above the DS limit (£21). The person concerned regularly travels and is accommodated with MoD Civil Servants, who are allowed to claim uncapped DS rates and as a result incurs expenditure in excess of the DS limit. The AFPAA consider that these expenses are 'unavoidably incurred' and has agreed to reimburse expenditure in excess of the DS limit for this individual.

As a serviceman I feel ashamed that I've been driven to this level of penny-pinching trivia and should be grateful I'm not being shot at but I thought it was news worth sharing.:)

[k1rb5]

I'm currently away on CA for 3 months. Does anyone know if I'm entitled to buy a suitcase to bring home my mountain of receipts at public expense????

[Pontius Navigator]

Fedex? .

[500days2do]

U splitter....:D

All the best mate...c u at pies if ure back/invited/sober...

5d2d

[SirToppamHat]

k1rb5

Never mind the case of receipts, it will take you 6 months to complete the forms on JPA; every time you his the wrong key it will say 'Sorry, the session has expired' (Or 'Compooter says NO' as it seems to me). Then the HR people will want to audit every single claim (because they or the system will be bound to be suspicious!).

Good Luck

STH

[k1rb5]

5d2d
Back in Nov so hopefully so. Looks like I'll still be in front my JPA terminal 'til then though. You have a PM.
k1rb5

[donardboy]

I heard on Friday from a VERY VERY reliable source that we are returning to rates within the next 2 weeks. The penny pinchers agreed on Friday and are giving stations time to absorb the detail and introduce either 25 Sep or 1 Oct. I repeat a VERY VERY reliable source.:ok: :ok: :ok:

[NoseGunner]

So LAC whos mate's girlfriend works in PSF then?

[donardboy]

Ng,

I will happily accept apologies for your sarcastic comment when it is announced this week !!!!!!

[droid3]

Donardboy,
I heard the same thing from an equally 'very reliable source' 8 weeks ago. Was told the whole thing had been staffed right up the chain, decision imminent, back to rates before you know it, etc, etc. Standing by...

[TheInquisitor]

The decision has been made and was passed to Stns verbally on Friday. Written confirmation will follow shortly. An amendment to the JSP is currently being written that will purely cover FSIs - when this is published the new system should go 'live' - no estimate on date though.

My source was also 'VERY VERY reliable'.

[mayorofgander]

Ng,

I will happily accept apologies for your sarcastic comment when it is announced this week !!!!!!


Dry your eyes Princess.

I don't suppose if it all changes back, that they couldn't prevent some tinkering with the FSI admin....probably still making it more cumbersome than the previous 'sign & spend' system....

MOG

[FFP]

Mayor Of Gander,

From your username, I guess your town would like to see the Actuals system back, like they tried there before :ok:

Those were the days . . .

[South Bound]

Anyone fancy a bet that the rates will have somehow been recalculated since we last used them and perhaps be a little smaller???

[FFP]

Probably. And will we complain and risk going back to the old system ?

[NoseGunner]

Donardboy

Apologies if my reply seemed sarcastic (the lowest form of wit!) I was more going for the cynical - been in too long (and read too much PPRuNe).

Nosegunner

[donardboy]

Ng,

Sorry, I interpreted your words incorrectly but I wasn't trying to be a smart a**e. I was 100% convinced again yesterday that this is going to happen sooner rather than later. It has also been suggested that if it happens before 1 Oct we will use the current capped actual rates as the rates to be issued. I only hope if this is the case there is not a massive decrease in the rates post 1 Oct. Fingers crossed !!

[South Bound]

Rates are now back for FSIs until Sep 07, applicable for all FSIs after 25 Sep 06....

Official.

[L1A2 discharged]

Bone question, What is FSI??

[South Bound]

Soz, Flight Sub Imprest.....

Looks like we are going to have to put up with Actuals for DS within the UK though....

[Backwards PLT]

South Bound

was your first post today supposed to say
"Rates are now back for FSIs until Sep 07...."??

Otherwise I dont understand!!

If so what about other non FSI claims outside UK?

[pigsinspace]

Actuals are now back for FSIs until Sep 07, applicable for all FSIs after 25 Sep 06.


which means, still collecting reciepts?

[donardboy]

As mentioned earlier, we are now back on rates from 26 Sep 06 until 30 Sep 07. No requirement to keep receipts on overseas FSI's from 26 Sep. IE and OSA paid as rates, LOA still to be claimed via JPA.

Hoooooooooooray

[South Bound]

Shouldn't need to!!!! Hooray

[Wader2]

I would have thought you are still into receipts, in fact more so. Under capped actuals you could stop collecting once you exceeded the cap? Under full actuals I would expect you need to account for every penny.

[donardboy]

Wader2,

It is NOT full actuals it is rates like before 1 Apr. NO need for receipts, full stop. I have seen the policy letter and sought the advice of FSI office

[KipperNav]

Unfortunately the bean counters have also decided in their infinite wisdom, that we are to spend over 5 hours on the ground to be entitled to any rates....not including any airborne time at all (ie you could fly for 6 hours, be on the ground 4.5 and fly for another 6 and get nothing.....). Hmmm, puts a dampner on being back to rates. Therefore, a short stop over/lunch stop overseas gets you nothing. Back to square 1. :confused:

[downsizer]

As mentioned earlier, we are now back on rates from 26 Sep 06 until 30 Sep 07. No requirement to keep receipts on overseas FSI's from 26 Sep. IE and OSA paid as rates, LOA still to be claimed via JPA.

Hoooooooooooray

Why only till 30 Sept 07 then?

[Yeller_Gait]

Without having seen the official paper, though I heard the same from someone at work this afternoon, I guess they will see over a trial period of a year if the rates system is cheaper and easier to administer.

Bring on my next det next Tuesday!

Y_G

[Pontius Navigator]

Found this web site: http://www.rafcom.co.uk/pay_allowances/allowances.cfm

Not up to date (1 Aug) but worth watching.

[Ginseng]

Good news, but worth noting that it applies specifically to Flight Sub-Imprests (FSI) only, not to Exercise/Operational Imprests generally. Also, I'll wait to see what the published rates are before I jump too high for joy. Still, a commonsense move, even if only guaranteed for a limited period.

Regards

Ginseng

[Tourist]

Us in the RN never get an imprest, but does this work the same for a crew of us that go abroad for a det somewhere in Europe, have to spend our money and keep all our receipts, or is it impresst only

[ratty1]

Without having seen the official paper, though I heard the same from someone at work this afternoon, I guess they will see over a trial period of a year if the rates system is cheaper and easier to administer.
Y_G

The introduction of Capped actuals in concuntion with JPA was never a money saving exercise. They wanted to save on personel, but infact had to employ more people to administer the whole stupid exercise. It was the Army, bless them, who were against the FSI's. Dont forget to keep your Capped actuals rate sheet, to compare, and see if they cut the rates though.

[CAC Runaway]

Anyone know what happens for me as i'm currently on a Det (keeping receipts!!) but will not return to the UK until a few days after the 26th Sep?

[k1rb5]

Me too. About 7 weeks left so if I don't need to bring my receipts home for post 26/09 I could do my bit for global warming and cut BA's fuel bill in half!:ok:

[mayorofgander]

Hi Guys;

It would be nice to keep the rate as a 'stay on the ground more than 5 hours....get the full whack' scenario.
Don't think many of us go flying for 6 hours, land for 4.5, then go flying again for another 6 hours.....think it may bust CDT.....(not even the 7-5-7 boys would go for this as they prob wouldn't be on an FSI doing 7-5-7 anyway).

The only downside to the 5 hour rule is the start snag the next morning after you have spent all your dosh the night before on a nice meal....then you would have to go hungry ...(until the 29hr point!!) or start eating the perishables.

Be nice to the rainforests...don't collect receipts.

MOG

[Spit the Dog]

You should have your head in the -9 and getting on with your CBTs ...not wasting time on 'pprune' ! Love to Charlies

[k1rb5]

Get the odd moment to pprune! I'll send C your love. Is that a pic of you behind the bar??:ok:
Oh, and any gen on post 26/09 rates would be great as I'm on my 2nd rainforest already;)

[Spit the Dog]

As previously said through this thread, its only for 'imprest' trips so when your back there in 6 months doing a bit of 'simming', its all receipt based again, however it certainly makes the 8 day 'det' eating chicken tava a bit easier to swallow.

[k1rb5]

Best I get down the BX and pick up and extra suitcase then. Bu&&£r

[donardboy]

Kipper Nav,

Prior to 1 Apr we only got rates when we were on the ground over 3 hours during a meal time. Meal times are no longer a factor, a big win for us I think. Remember whilst in the air for 5 hours you will be receiving food at public expense (ie: In-Flight).

I am very happy with the new rules and I think due to Bzn and Lynehams proactive canvassing on our behalf should be appaluded

[Comp Charlie]

Mayor Of Gander,

From your username, I guess your town would like to see the Actuals system back, like they tried there before :ok:

Those were the days . . .

Would that be during Ex Purple Star in '96 by any chance? What a joke that was - you couldn't move in Reflections for the amount of 'wagon-wheels' loaded up with a gigantic combination platter per person!!

I believe it came to a head when a 1* Bean-Counter came thru and realised what a rubbish idea it all was and we went back to rates.

CC

[KipperNav]

[QUOTE=donardboy;2868523]
Remember whilst in the air for 5 hours you will be receiving food at public expense (ie: In-Flight).

Only if you have onboard re-heating/cooking facilities....not all aircraft have an oven/microwave. Those that don't lose out. For example, a FJ transiting europe to Cyprus without AAR. Or a Kingair on a euro-trainer. Stops for fuel overseas and crew are not entitled to any cash/rates for lunch unless they stop for more than 5 hours. Not a very efficient use of the ac. There used to be an exemption to the 3 hours rule on the ground for ac without hot food facilities to just 1 hour on the ground. This has now been lost (although I hope temporarily).

However, going back to rates is certainly heading in the right direction :D . Just goes to show if we, the end users, kick up enough of a fuss then someone listens to us....

[Tourist]

Could somebody please point me in the direction of the new policy document that the RAF has got about this change back to rates, as the RN are disavowing any knowledge of any change

[DICKY the PIG]

Official paperwork posted up on Sqn notice board today. It confirms that we are back on a daily rate which is to be issued in full, no receipts required. If you are on the ground for more than 5 hours full daily rate applies.
I bet the bean counters are looking at other ways of screwing us over though.:ugh:

[Tourist]

Dicky, could you please tell me the name of the policy document, where it came from etc so that the rest of us can share in the RAF's good fortune?
Even better post it on here!

[Feck]

Now I was told a while ago that JPA would be accessible via the internet. Is this the case? If so, what's the address? It would be useful to be able to fill in the claims piecemeal when detached, before hitting the whirling dervish that is the office back home...

[cazatou]

There was a time, believe it or not, when Senior Oficers actually sought the opinions of Junior Officers because they were the people doing the job.

I can remember the then AOCinC specifying that I would be the Captain of a specific task so that we could "Discuss" various matters that had come to his attention. My (Navigator) Flt Cdr came along to provide top cover.

The discussion lasted for some 6-8 hours over 2 days and there was absolutely no adverse come back from the AOCinC.

The crew, however, felt that somewhere other than Vagar would have been a better choice of nightstop!!

[movadinkampa747]

There was a time, believe it or not, when Senior Oficers actually sought the opinions of Junior Officers because they were the people doing the job.
I can remember the then AOCinC specifying that I would be the Captain of a specific task so that we could "Discuss" various matters that had come to his attention. My (Navigator) Flt Cdr came along to provide top cover.
The discussion lasted for some 6-8 hours over 2 days and there was absolutely no adverse come back from the AOCinC.
The crew, however, felt that somewhere other than Vagar would have been a better choice of nightstop!!

Oh thats super........ Where the hell is Vagar?

[BEagle]

In the Faroe Islands.

Interesting place to be stuck with the AOC-in-C, I would imagine...:eek: