Fixed Float autos...

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

What would be the recommended technique to perfrom an auto onto water with a fixed floats machine ?

TFS

[rudestuff]

As someone who flies with floats regularly, i've often wondered that myself.
Having never had the opportunity to do it, i'm not too sure, but i'd assume you'd want to get as close to zero/zero as possible, although I saw a video of an R44 doing them to water, and it seemed pretty forgiving even with 10 knots or so of forward speed - just a big splash. I'd rather do one to water than land. (don't have to worry so much about making the spot in the ocean!)

[Arm out the window]

There has been a thread on this in the past, but the main differences I've noticed between an auto to the ground on skids vs. to the water on fixed floats (in Bell 205 and 206) are:

1. Big pitch up on entry, presumably because of extra surface area up front, which needs a good amount of forward cyclic to counter;

2. Yaw instability in auto, just like the waffly feel in forward flight;

3. Flare height and level normal, but may be hard to judge especially on a glassy day;

4. Actual water entry is quite relaxed and 'spongy' - just make sure it's straight, and a level to slightly nose up attitude, and expect a bit of a bow wave with any forward speed - can wash into the cabin if the doors are open, quite sporty.

5. Hover / taxi autos are very forgiving collective-wise, but don't be moving sideways when you touch down.

I haven't autoed into much in the way of swell or waves, but have been told to land into wind on a small wave day and along the swell if the waves are significant - seems to make sense.

[LIMIT NOT TARGET]

Speaking from experience, I have had two real autos onto the ocean, and I do training in a dam once a year. All have been in a MD500. The landings are very soft, oleos must help out here aswell.
The only thing that you have to think of is the wind, no power lines, trees or school yard filled with kids to worry about.
And yes, run on autos are not really the desired auto for water, and if you are being silly and doing running boat like take offs, watch out as the front of the floats will try and be a submarine.
Just do some normal landings on water, take it easy, have some fun and as they say ' you only learn from experience'.

[Gomer Pylot]

I've done a lot of autos to the water in fixed-float 206Bs. The technique is exactly that for any other auto. The only difficult part is the possibility that very calm water can make it more difficult to judge the flare altitude. The water entry, as already stated, is very gentle, and it can sometimes be hard to tell when you're in the water, if everything is done correctly. You just need to make very sure you get as close as possible to zero groundspeed, because the floats don't take well to high speed entries. The front end can tuck under if you're going too fast and have the nose a little low.

[widgeon]

How about autos onto terra firma with fixed floats ?. I heard a tale ( not sure if it was true ) of a less skilled pilot doing a big bounce when auto ing a fixed float AS350 some years ago.

[bladepitch]

hi guys

i fly a 44 with fixed floats.

question from widgeon.

mate all depands, the 44 has the floats attached on top of the skids which are a bit taller that regular height, so landings on land are made on the skid itself, hence, a solid landing on terra firma every time. not sure about the 206 thought i think they are set up differently. as for autos
all mentioned above is pretty spot on. just remember to hold a small mount of aft cyclic upon entering the water. try to land with in 30 meters of shoreline in rivers or dams (if your ever in them) it alows you to gauge drift alot as the water affect from the downwash is a bitch. a tip for all guys flying 44s with fixed floats. be wary of practice water landoing by your self as the machine sits tail heavy and you risk putting the tail rotor closer to the water, or in it during entry.

they are great fun once your used to them.

BP:ok:

[B Sousa]

Funny this has not been brought up before. Just had to do a contract with a B206 on Big rubber inflatables......... A real speedster she was. Anyway I had to get OAS carded for the Ops, so the owner and I went out (Hes a CFI) and did a few in a lake....... Real interesting if your not used to them. Most important is zero that airspeed and watch the flair (tailrotor in water is not good)before you go in.........In can get really wet in the cockpit if you dont. ha ha
Something else some dont think about is the fact that when your flying XC, its safer to put the float thing in water than land. Anything OTHER than zero forward speed on land and over she goes............

[Nigel Osborn]

I've had the pleasure of doing 100s of eols onto rivers, lakes & the open sea in 47s & 206s. The main difference between those 2 types is the shape of the float. The 47 float is the shape of a big fat Cuban cigar with drag characteristics of a small parachute. The 206 is beautifully streamlined & a joy to fly.
With both machines the auto characteristics are not much different to skids, just a bit more sloppy which you should be able to sort out after 1 or 2 goe:ok: s. The 47 needs to be quite slow on touchdown whereas the 206 can do quite a fast run on. Both need their floats to be well blown up as cold water makes them go quite soft if you spend much time water taxying. The 206 needs a bit more back stick than the 47 to allow it to run on. All the pilots I've checked, if they could do good eols on skids, had no problems converting to floats.
As for doing an eol on land, not so easy! A friend in PNG on a max weight take off with 2 big geos on board, at first light with zilch wind, had the throttle rod break off at full throttle. At 3000 feet he explained the principles of eols to his 2 pax & stopped the engine. He selected the long wet grass near the runway & almost made a zero speed touch down but sad to say, the main rotor nicked the tail rotor drive shaft. A bit lighter & he would have managed it, so stick to water!

[rotorque]

We use to operate 47's on floats in another life....

One intersting fact was that you could afford a far greater rate of descent on entry into the water. I have first hand experience of seeing the entire float on my side below the water line with the associated 'popping' up of the machine as a result.

Entry into the auto was pretty much the same. The size and shape of the 47floats create lift over the nose section during the descent so the kit includes a set of spoilers mounted on the upper surface just forward of the doors, as well as a protector on the stinger that also acted as a surface to create a nose down moment.

47's were less forgiving to side slip with the floats as they acted as a surface area below the CoG exacerbating the slip.

One scary fact is that 'supposedly' there has been no factory demonstration of a successful auto to land in the 47. Successful meaning, without chopping the tail boom. Being a fairly low powered machine, our worst fear for young fella's was an overpitch on takeoff and an inadvertant contact of the float with the ground....... with the smallest amount of forward speed, this would cause a tucking under of the float bags and either a rollover of the machine or contact with the tail boom.....

P R nightmare.