Why are only pilots captains

[Shadwell the old]

Looking at the "young C17 pilots thread" made me think (a rare thing!). Why do most fleets only have pilots as the aircraft captain?

The kipper fleet is clearly ahead of the game and enlightened, by making navs and AEOs or pilots as the aircraft captain. Surely the man or woman with their finger on the operational pulse is the best person to be in charge.

The fast jet world has navs leading formations. Why should they not be the aircraft captain?

What does the pilot know about what is really happening abord an E3?

Does the captain of a submarine or the captain of the navy's surface ship ever "drive" the vessel? I think not.

Discuss

[c130jbloke]

No stick, no vote !

God I must be bored replying to this......

:ugh:

C130JB

[Shadwell the old]

:D I'll take that as my first bite.

Thanks!

Time for my ovaltine

[Human Factor]

BEA had a thought (an aberation?) in the Sixties that the Captain of the Vanguard should sit on the jump seat and the two First Officers should fly the thing (make it so, Number One!!). I can perhaps understand why a Nimrod or such should perhaps have a mission specialist as the Captain, but a transport? What's the point.

Having said that, I may be missing something here but as a non-military flyer, whoever the "Captain" may be: no controls, no say I'm afraid.

[ZH875]

What does the pilot know about what is really happening abord an E3?And what can a Scope Dope in the back do when the aircraft has to make an emergency landing, and try keep his POB in one piece.:ugh:

[scitzo legman]

c130jbloke

I must be bored reading your reply :mad:

CRM 10/10 :D

Typical 'J' answer

[movadinkampa747]

What does the pilot know about what is really happening abord an E3?

Does the captain of a submarine or the captain of the navy's surface ship ever "drive" the vessel? I think not.

Discuss

I don't suppose he really cares.

Does the NAV/AEO ever drive the plane. I think not.:ugh:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Building blocks duh:ugh:

How is that a typical J reply:rolleyes:

As it happens irrespective of type he is 100% correct, there maybe well be a multitude of mis guided kippers who "thought" they were A/C captains but at the end of the day the guy driving is ALWAYS in charge:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Edited after sciatica's cartoon, as I am an ALM please explain to simple old me how you have "hooked" me:=

There is no rocket science involved in comprehending that whoever controls the control column is actually in control, I mean come on if a tea boy can grasp this simple concept surely you can:rolleyes:

[scitzo legman]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_3_202.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm824JTUS) easy easy easy!

[c130jbloke]

Change of plan: I am bored.

[boyassassin]

Gay Bloke, how long did it take you to become a t*sser?:O


Later.

[movadinkampa747]

Gay Bloke, how long did it take you to become a t*sser?:O
Later.

I think you will find he is still learning, but I am sure you could give him some lessons:ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Boyblunder

Gay Bloke, how long did it take you to become a t*sser?


Later.

As we are about to get a bunch of way above average K guys onto the J fleet I guess you are a bit bitter at not being included in that gang:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[scitzo legman]

It's about time you got some of the 'above average' ones. They've been keeping all the good ones up til now apparently.:ok:

[ch135146]

http://c0venant.net/imagenes/troll-dontfeed.jpg

[goatmanni]

Chaps - who cares? :confused:

[B200Drvr]

The captain is responsible for the aircraft, but is not always in charge of the mission. The captain of a ship does drive it, (on cruise ships) almost always does the parking, and when its on auto pilot he makes the final decisions.

[airborne_artist]

Who signs the 700?

[Shadwell the old]

airborne_artistWho signs the 700?

If he is the Captain the AEO of course!

Kev NurseWhen someone (Shadwell) ends an opening message with the word (directive), "discuss", I can't help but think, "what an arse"

As your ex captain - thanks Kev!:=

Shadwell

[Pierre Argh]

It used to be the case in the RN Fleet Air Arm that the senior crewmember was the captain... hence often that responsibility would fall upon the Observer (they've never had Flt Engineers) Is it still the case, or become another victim of jointery (and the perceived need to do it the light-blue way)? ISTM Captaincy is pretty much divorced from crewrole?

[anotherthing]

I agree with Pierre -

What difference does crew role have?

Captaincy is about decision making. If a Nav has a hell of a lot more experience than the pilot, he should be the Captain.

The RAF promotes people based on experience/seniority, why is being in an A/C any different?

[winkle]

no the raf does not promote for the above. it promotes for running the creche/scouts and spellling. if ship/sub captains dont drive its not cos they cant its cos they can and have the ability to allow their co driver do it. no stick no vote - simple.

[Dunhovrin]

I was collared by one of our airline's recuitment interviewers who asked about who captained navy aircraft. It seems an ex-observer with a frozen ATPL and about a hundred hours stick time (or whatever you can freeze and ATPl with nowadays) was trying to count his "Captain" time towards the hours requirements.

He who lands it, commands it.

[DICKY the PIG]

Shadwell the old

Seeing as Kev Nurse is on Guernsey's Own, "What an ARSE" may be a compliment or a come on!!!!!!!:eek: :uhoh:

[brakedwell]

Two, three or four engines, it don't matter which - Glass cockpits - Two crew - No argument!

[scitzo legman]

Which one of our multi ac has two crew then????

[Antique Driver]

Why are only pilots captains


Because we are the most gifted, highly trained and most intelligent member of the crew.

Only 2 Fg Branchs left - PILOT and all the rest of you WSOs/WSOps!!


No Stick No Vote!

[chornedsnorkack]

Building blocks duh:ugh:
How is that a typical J reply:rolleyes:
As it happens irrespective of type he is 100% correct, there maybe well be a multitude of mis guided kippers who "thought" they were A/C captains but at the end of the day the guy driving is ALWAYS in charge:ok:
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Edited after sciatica's cartoon, as I am an ALM please explain to simple old me how you have "hooked" me:=
There is no rocket science involved in comprehending that whoever controls the control column is actually in control, I mean come on if a tea boy can grasp this simple concept surely you can:rolleyes:


It is not obvious for sea "Captains".

On a ship, the man actually holding the steering wheel behind the rudder is just one out of many affecting where the ship goes. A lot is decided by what the men are doing with the sails, ropes and winches, or what the engine room team is achieving.

So, the person actually holding the steering wheel on the bridge is not even an officer. Actually holding the wheel and being helmsman is IIRC given to quartermasters.

A ship is navigated by someone who holds no controls, but who stands behind, watches the outcome of the work of helmsman, engine room and others, and gives orders. Which may be Captain, and a lot of time is Officer on Watch.

So. On a plane, who should hold controls, who should be a Captain? Could or should a plane be flown by two First Officers while the Captain occupies an observer seat?

[buoy15]

Shadwell
You should well know that captaincy is about experience, knowledge and airmanship - that's why ISK have a good share of WSO capts. Most importantly, captaincy, amongst other things, is facing the Boss and Stn Cdr if you screw up - they don't send for the Lead Wet or P2
As a back end capt twice, I had my share of incidents - each time I quite simply stated on crew intercom, " P1 - capt, you are to RTB and get us there as quickly and safely as possible"
I also read and signed the F700, usually after everyone with an interest had seen it - I also ensured any crew member who had entered a snag, gave a face to face de-brief to the respective ground trade before vacating for the bus
Worked quite well

[winkle]

all the planes in my company are 2 crew glass and in fact in most modern outfits are although some of the less modern aircraft still have flight engineers ( i would still welcome them back even now- salt of the earth and all that). what about captains only landings at certain airfields. also i am sure that on a ship if the steering bloke keels over then the skipper would be able to take over and land without too much drama. dont see the point of a loadie being skipper on a j, or even one of the ftr controllers on the airborne bunker. as for having skipper in jump seat whilst having .... well what a waste of money.
lets face it ,should have tried harder during training or bought an atpl then you get to be captain - one day (+the big pay cheque)
incoming........

[SASless]

Since when did the RAF have "Captains"? That sounds like the AAC or RM's.

[pigsinspace]

Actually the Nav drives the a/c most of the time on AT (VC10) as he controls the steering to the autopilot.

Actually only on the Antique AT fleet. The Ultra modern Tristar has 3 little black boxes called INU's NO nav Reqd.

[FFP]

Actually the Nav drives the a/c most of the time on AT (VC10) as he controls the steering to the autopilot.
On the OCU it was demonstrated that the autopilot can fly much smoother than any pilot, so the pilots were relegated to being radio operators.
WTN

Be careful about using the word "drives". If by "drive" you mean the Nav types in some waypoint names and tells the pilots "The kit's good if you want to use it" then they do indeed "drive" it.

But if you don't mean that, then your wrong and they don't drive the VC10. They programme the flight plan waypoints for use by pilots by either engaging the kit or following a white line. It is possible (and in some operational flights SOP) to fly without the nav kit engaged over long distances.

And you can input as many waypoints as you like, and engage any one of the 2 autopilots you want. Without the CAPTAIN allowing for the Nav key to be engaged, then nothing is driving the aircraft :ok:

[FFP]

so the pilots were relegated to being radio operators.WTN

F**k me ! And to think I've been turning up to work all this time, taking off and landing planes and all I needed to do was answer the radio !!

Wish someone would tell me these things !!!

I'll remember that when the weather is on minimas next time and you need someone to land the thing.....:E

[FFP]

On the OCU it was demonstrated that the autopilot can fly much smoother than any pilot

Shall I ? Why not. While I'm at it . . .. . . .

You'll know from the OCU (Trg Flt for the purists out there) that the autopilot comprises of an Alt lock, an IAS lock and a Mach lock.

Unlike your modern jets which have far superior autopilots whereby you can programme in your cleared height, and the thing takes you up there as well as adjusting the power for you, the VC10 requires a PILOT input to make all that happen.

So, you can pitch the aircraft using the pitch wheels and turn it using the manual control (or the heading bug if HDG mode selected). Until the nav key is engaged, that's how the turns will be done and until you are in the cruise the aircraft will be levelled on the pitch wheels.

More often than not it's the pilot inputs in the VC10 at critical stages of flight you'll be noticing.

And above all, the autopilot will only perform as well as the person operating it. It's not a magic box you know . .. :ok:

[brakedwell]

F**k me ! And to think I've been turning up to work all this time, taking off and landing planes and all I needed to do was answer the radio !!
Wish someone would tell me these things !!!
I'll remember that when the weather is on minimas next time and you need someone to land the thing.....:E

FFP - You'll be too busy working the radio to land the thing unless you convert on to something that lands itself.

[FFP]

True. I'll be able to give an awesome Finals call, just before the jet crashes in the undershoot :ok:

[anotherthing]

Is there any truth in the rumour that future large jets will be manned by a pilot and a dog?

The Pilot is there to feed the dog, the dogs job is to bite the pilot if he touches the controls??:E

obviously more to do with the civil airliners that are able to auto land zero/zero and taxi to stand

[brakedwell]

obviously more to do with the civil airliners that are able to auto land zero/zero and taxi to stand
Can't taxi themselves I am afraid, and it is easy to get lost in very low vis.

[Pontius Navigator]

On the mighty Vulcan the Plotter often 'flew' the aircraft in azimuth. Once, over Iran he was the only crew member awake, I had one eye half open, and he had to turn the aircraft south. In those days he did not have an R/T button so he could not make any R/T calls.

The pilots woke up as the Sun drenched the cockpit.

[Shackman]

A long time ago, at ISK:

New 1st Pilot taxying Shack into dispersal in middle of night slices wingtip into another aircraft. Says to Nav Capt - who has been looking out other side of ac iaw GASO's - "Now look what you've done!"

(And guess who got the primary blame and bollocking):E

[John Eacott]

It used to be the case in the RN Fleet Air Arm that the senior crewmember was the captain... hence often that responsibility would fall upon the Observer

The looker was often Crew Captain, which seemed to mean Very Little in the great scheme of things, except when SOBS turned us back to Mother one day, instead of overnighting in NZ: rotter ;)

The Wessex HAS3 could be driven from the back, with 1960's technology: once plugged in at 150' jump height, the range/bearing could be inputted from the back end into the autopilot, with two drivers up the front merely required to press "Transition Down" to a 30' hover. IIRC this was removed from the Sea King HAS1, so the pilots actually had to make the turns as well :p

[vecvechookattack]

In the FAA the chap in command is now called the "aircraft commander" and he will be the senior officer regardless of what job he does. If the Observer is senior then he is Aircraft Commander.

[QFIhawkman]

Well looking at most of your posts that makes sense!

Chump.

[sonicstomp]

To respond to the original post - in fact a good E3 skipper will know plenty about "what is going on" and will be working with his mission specialists closely (primarily the Tactical Director).....While the TD will direct mission execution, the captain will take overall responsibility.

The system relies on a close working relationship between the TD and captain (particularly in an operational environment) but *it works*....I cannot think of a TD on the fleet who would like to see it changed (well one, but he has retired now)...

[doubledolphins]

On a trip to Kinloss I was told the story, by a fellow pilot, of the "Captain" of the aircraft who was disciplined for a Mess beat up on Ball Night that he knew nothing about. He had been sat in the back and the pilots had not bothered to tell him what they were doing. (Don't know if it was a Nimrod or Shackleton or if true.)

[Shadwell the old]

doubledolphins

If the incident really happened, IMHO the captain (back end) should not have been a captain and the P1 should not have been a P1.

There was an incident (not on my crew) where the P1 decided to do a beat up of Aberdeen at 0130 after a SAR sortie en route ISK, with a Flt Cdr guesting as second nav, and the other nav as captain. The captain was disciplined and the P1 moved to my crew. On the 1st sortie with me he carried out an unauthorised beat up in poor weather during an authorised PD without even telling the other 2 members of the flight deck crew what he was doing - none of us were impressed. He was then briefed by me, on ic, to return to ISK and land from the first suitable approach. I was hauled off him in the locker room before reporting him to the Sqn Cdr, wherupon he was made P2 to the pilot leader (a big fingered Yorkshireman who smoked a pipe!), who also wanted to dispense summary justice. The staish at the base "we" had just beaten up called the staish at ISK to report the cowboy and his dangerous crew. Fortunately my boss knew about the whole issue and was able to brief the staish on the action he had taken. If the system had been that only pilots had been captains, the "cowboy" would have been in overall command and could have done what he did without anyone to over rule him, probably resulting in the loss of an aircraft and crew. Funnily enough the P1 never made captain despite a tour away and being retreaded. However, he never transgressed again while he was on my crew.

Think he flys for a civvy airline now - hmmm!

[Biggus]

'Why are only pilots captains?' - well Shadwell answered his own question in his opening post - THEY AREN'T!! So why 3+ more pages?



As for the 'no stck no vote' replies from some of the pilots, that is the sort of arrogant remark I would have expected in the days before we tried to apply CRM. I used to fly with a pilot captain who consulted his crew in a much fairer manner. We all used to get a vote on any issue, and then the captain would cast his Union block vote of 5 million!! This lead to a much happier crew, where we all felt our opinion was valued ...... :)

[kmagyoyo]

Because they tried hardest at school :E

(ready for incoming)

[Bootleg]

Shadwell, you really should know better! Especially an old and crusty AEO, sorry WSO, like yourself. Everyone knows you guys are the mission commanders really, and not the aircraft captains in the real piloting sense of the word.

I know you take it very seriously and that you are particularly polished at cod fishing, but don't ever doubt who is actually in control of that nimrod that you've been a passenger in for all those years. Dare I say, walking freight; with access to a dimmer switch (which is probably u/s). Who's coat is that jacket?

Tell us another sea shanty old man, aaaar! :cool:

[Two's in]

:confused: So who get's handed the Neglect, Misuse, and Damage chit, when Human Factors (Aircrew Error) results in some serious damage to one of Mrs Windsor's shiniest bits of Aluminium? The Aircraft Captain or the P1 (assuming they are different people)?

[QFIhawkman]

:confused: So who get's handed the Neglect, Misuse, and Damage chit, when Human Factors (Aircrew Error) results in some serious damage to one of Mrs Windsor's shiniest bits of Aluminium? The Aircraft Captain or the P1 (assuming they are different people)?

Depends on who was taxying the aircraft at the time of course! It's his fault! (Unless there were any movers involved with a highly mobile atlas!)

[wingstoosmall]

Ok here it is. The captain of an aircraft must be that individual who is best placed to guard the safety of that aircraft? A decent agrgument? So here we go; relate to the single seat model - The pilot is at the centre of the aircraft and as such is the first person to see a caption on the CWP or feel an incongrous malfunction in the aeroplane. As such, despite the the possible interference of anyone on the ground or in another aircraft who may be on hand to help or offer advice, the dude in the cockpit is the man who's decisions will be judged, analysed and praised or scorned.
The point is, no matter how many people sit in/on an aircraft, the dude with the stick is almost always the shortest path from problem to solution as he has not only the controls but also the sole responsibility of looking after the aeroplane, a skill he has been learning since day one of flying training.
Put simply, it's all well and good to try and justify how well crewpeople can make captains but if you don't have the stick in your hand and the CWP at your side then you are simply going to lengthen the process by which your crew will deal with problems, this overcomplication is almost an offence in aviation. The shorter the command chain, the better - this involves no-one telling the pilot what to do, only advising him as to the best course of action since he and his co-pilot alone possess the relevant skills to deal with the handling of the aircraft, as tought by a FTS which, if nothing else is designed to make aircraft captains.

Any suggestion that anyone other than a pilot should be captain is simply overcomplicating the process of managing an aircraft or insecure about how his position or is viewed.

It's much easier when there's no-one around to bother your little brain

Wings.

[Shadwell the old]

So wingtoosmall thinks all pilots are "he". Is this sexist? I never thought I would be the one to be PC. I only have experience (in the flying sense) of one lady pilot and she was fantastic.

To balance the comments of my last post, I have nothing but respect for all but one of the P1s that I have flown with. Hopefully they would feel the same way about flying with me. I cant think of an occasion when I interfered with their pilot or nav type decisions. When we had an emergency, clearly the appropriate people take the lead, be it the pilots, Eng navs or the R5, with the rest of us supporting them in any way possible. In over 1000 hours as captain, I probably only had to "interfere" once and that was to resolve a dispute. In my belief flying a multi crew aircraft is a team sport and just because whoever is captain does not give them a monopoly on knowledge. The prima donas (and I am sure we have all met a few) are probably the worst and least suited to captaincy. As aircrew we are all trained to do our respective jobs to a high standard and it is my belief that without a mix of skills required of a crew, the aircraft could not complete the mission successfully.

It was a dreary bank holiday Monday when I put this thread on the ether, and I did not expect to get more than a couple of responses. However, what do I know!

Oops here comes my nurse (not Kev) to dress me..........

Shadwell

[doubledolphins]

Shad, now you come to mention it I think it was the Pipe Smoking Yorkshireman who told me the dit. When I see him again I'll ask him.