IFR Avionics - cost

[loewy]

Hi all !

I am not yet an aircraft owner but currently on the market to buy an economical four-seater entry craft. My mid-term objective is to get my JAR-IFR rating, since I live in Northern Europe where weather is less dependable than, say, Florida (!).

What is the approximate cost of upgrading a VFR avionics equipped SEP a/c to IFR ? I am sure price can vary depending on the kind of instruments one chooses, but I'm trying to get a sense of it...

All answers will help...

L

[IO540]

What is your aircraft purchase cost budget, and what kinds of trips do you want to fly?

[loewy]

Thx for your prompt reply IO540.

I haven't defined my budget yet - I'm in the process of doing just that.

The trips I will do are all around Europe with the longest probably being Belgium-Ireland, Belgium-Denmark or Belgium French Riviera... but not right away (!).

a/c under consideration are C172, PA28 and Socata TB9 or 10, with a current preference for the latter manufaturer.

Good landings,

L

[IO540]

I am going to get jumped on for saying this, but to fly Euro airways you need a 16000ft minimum operating ceiling, and none of your choices will hack that. You will just end up collecting ice at FL100-120 - or cancelling almost as many flights as you would if limited to VFR. Unfortunately the weather doesn't care much for whether you have an IR or not.

A lot of airways routes don't even get validated by Eurocontrol below FL130, in places.

I'd look at a reasonable used TB20, £130k or so. 20k ft ceiling, portable oxygen of course. And unless you get a real dog, it will have the avionics too. Get TKS prop de-ice.

Not to say you can't do "IFR" for less but you will be disappointed on the mission capability front.

The other thing is that you could fit the equipment in something lower down but the stuff is expensive to put in. That's why it is better to buy a plane where the previous owner has already blown his bank balance :)

[Keef]

As IO said.

You could buy a Cherokee 140 for about £20k (with a reasonable engine but no avionics worthy of the name).

Then you'd need the rest of the IFR kit. I would reckon a GNS430 (£6k-ish), a COM2/NAV2 (£4k-ish), ADF (£2k-ish), Mode S transponder (£6k-ish), Marker receiver and audio panel to suit all the above (£3k-ish), second altimeter (£1k-ish), DME (£2k-ish), plus fitting that lot (£5-6k) plus VAT.

You just added more than you paid for the aeroplane to start with.

And if the AH, DI, and TC were a bit "shot", you'd have to replace them too.

Buy one with it all fitted, I'd say.

[dirkdj]

You may want to have a look at the website of PPLIR (http://www.pplir.org) who are a group specially focused on private IR flying. There is a meeting in Kortrijk Belgium on the 9th of September where you can get a feeling of the group and meet people.
There are plenty of good well equipped aircraft available. First define your mission, number of pax, range, weather capabilities, pilot capabilities and budget for fuel/maintenance etc.
Even if IR rated it is best to have an alternate day for travelling. Early this spring I canceled a flight to Bavaria, there was about 1 m of snow, unexpected the evening before.

[drauk]

Whilst most of Keef's prices seem about right, he has overstated the Mode S cost (and no, I don't work for the CAA!), particularly if you were having the other stuff fitted. A GTX330 is £2,500 + VAT installed.

Also, you might want to give some thought to the need or otherwise for an autopilot, if only a basic "heading mode" one. Lots of people won't fly in IMC without one. These aren't cheap.

[SkyHawk-N]

Whilst most of Keef's prices seem about right,

You think so? I think you could do it much cheaper. However, I do agree about getting the kit in an aircraft you purchase and that you need to work out how you are going to use it before buying one. If buying an IFR equipped aircraft the USA is the place to look, there are hundreds of good looking ones for sale at the moment.

[loewy]

All this is very helpful, guys. Thanks !

To IO's point, I understand what you mean and won't dispute that you are right as I don't have the experience you seem to have. However, people get IFFR trained on "modest" machines. In our school, we have an Archer, a C172 or an Arrow which all have the limitations you state in your message. I guess one just has to get trained somehow and then people decide what they do with their IR.

In my case, I am suggesting (maybe wrongly...) that if I am prepared to buy a simple machine to build hours and start travelling VFR - but have the plan to get an IR quickly - it could make sense to get trained on my a/c rather than a rental one. After that, I might either rent a performant machine henI plan to go to Bavaria... or buy one ! ;-)

Comments & thoughts welcome.

Happy landings,

L

[drauk]

SkyHawk-N,

That's great news. So where can one get a GNS430 installed and fixed up to everything for less than 6k-ish? Lowest price I've seen is £5,500, plus certification costs.

[SkyHawk-N]

SkyHawk-N,
That's great news. So where can one get a GNS430 installed and fixed up to everything for less than 6k-ish? Lowest price I've seen is £5,500, plus certification costs.

I was looking at the prices for the rest of the stuff. The COM/NAV, altimeter and audio panel.

And if you really want to know about a cheaper GNS430 just look for an aircraft across the pond and get it installed before delivery, no problem! ;) I had a complete avionics panel installed in mine.

[StraightLevel]

hi guys,

does anyone know where online i can find a list of the required avionics for ifr in the uk?

regards,

straightlevel

[IO540]

The UK airspace equipment list is in ANO Schedule 4 and 5.

However, this varies from country to country. The equipment list for each country is in the country's AIP GEN 1.5

Above FL095 you also need BRNAV which means an IFR approved GPS.

Yes, a GPS is mandatory for IFR in Europe, which is really going to please the old farts slagging off GPS in the other thread :)

The problem isn't so much the equipment. You could get an old C172 and stick the stuff in it, bought secondhand and installed by a friendly avionics man who isn't after the trade margin on the supply (very rare). But it won't give you the performance to handle European weather.

[drauk]

In case it saves anyone some effort, this was my recent experience as of mid-2006...

Buying a brand new GNS430 or GNS530 in the US and shipping it to the UK is no cheaper than buying it in the UK.

Buying from an established avionics installer is no more expensive than buying it from Harry Mendelssohn.

In combination, assuming one wants to buy the kit new, these two facts mean that finding someone to give a good price to install it without supplying is moot. If secondhand all bets are off - though when I did have quotes that broke everything down the prices for installing non-supplied kit weren't substantially different.

[SkyHawk-N]

In case it saves anyone some effort, this was my recent experience as of mid-2006...
Buying a brand new GNS430 or GNS530 in the US and shipping it to the UK is no cheaper than buying it in the UK.

It would be nice to hear specifics on costs.

Aircraft Spruce (not the cheapest supplier) is offering a GNS430 for $6530.00
or £3550 using my credit card today.

[BroomstickPilot]

Loewy,

The guys have answered the question you have asked, but there is another question you have not yet asked, without which, the whole thing looks much more easy than it really is. After all, what we have discussed so far only requires money!

You need to consider the time and difficulty involved in getting the JAA IR (not to mention the money) that will authorise you to fly IFR in an aeroplane registered in a JAA country.

You will need to pass no less than nine written examinations at about CPL level. This alone will require months of study assuming you study full time.

In addition, you will need to train for and pass the IR skill test, which is an extremely difficult test to pass.

In financial terms we are talking about at least £1,200 for a distance learning course (Atlantic Flight Training), or more like twice that for full time, and probably I would guess about £9,000 worth of flight training assuming you pass at your first attempt, (costs less if you do it in the US).

There is talk of a PPL IR being introduced, but that might take years.

The whole thing comes down in price somewhat if you buy an 'N' registered aeroplane and go for the FAA IR instead of the JAA IR. However, IO540 will know much more than I about this.

Incidentally, if you buy an 'N' registered aeroplane with the intention of moving it onto the 'G' or 'EI' registers, you may find some of the fitted kit is not permitted by the 'G' or 'EI' civil aviation authorities.

Good luck: (you are going to need it).

Broomstick.

[drauk]

Skyhawk-N,

I was quoted £3700 for a GNS430 and £5700 for a GNS530 - plus VAT, as presumably are the US prices. So basically the same as the US. Fully fitted, including a CDI/GS and antenna for £5650 + VAT. I can't tell you the price of fitting the GNS530 on its own because I'm having some other stuff moved around (not necessary with the 430) which is adding to the cost. Fitting an IFR nav/com/gps/mfd is a big deal I suppose because it hooks up to so many other things - HSI, GPSS, audio panel, Mode S transponder, etc.

BroomstickPilot is right about the CAA IR as I understand it. But the N-reg one is much much more accessible; plenty of info about it on pprune and PPL/IR, including IO540's great write up.

[IO540]

The way to get avionics "cheap" is to buy professionally refurbished gear, with the appropriate paperwork

http://www.seaerospace.com/

Great firm, excellent service. The downside is that avionics shops don't generally like this - those that I have used to date were very reluctant to do it, most likely because they don't get the very generous trade discount which they get on new supplied. OTOH I do know others who have managed to get it done, though usually in the context of other work.

I have no idea what is currently involved under EASA regs (and neither, sadly, have many others) but with an N-reg you need an 8130-3 form with the kit, plus the usual 337 / DER / IA etc signoffs.

As BP says, the real hassle with flying IFR around Europe is the IR. I'd say go N-reg and FAA PPL/IR but of course there is always the risk that the DfT will try to carry out their plan to kick N-reg planes out of the UK - depriving hundreds of UK pilots of their IFR privileges and driving them back to VFR (or the IMC Rating). The DfT is due to publish a ruling on this in the next few months, I think, and the worst case outcome will finish the flying ambitions of a large number of pilots around Europe (because other countries are likely to follow if the UK manages to pull off this ridiculous stunt).

This is the longest reply I can type up on my GPRS connection before the pprune server logs me out, losing everything I have typed :)

[scooter boy]

"I'd say go N-reg and FAA PPL/IR but of course there is always the risk that the DfT will try to carry out their plan to kick N-reg planes out of the UK - depriving hundreds of UK pilots of their IFR privileges and driving them back to VFR (or the IMC Rating). The DfT is due to publish a ruling on this in the next few months, I think, and the worst case outcome will finish the flying ambitions of a large number of pilots around Europe (because other countries are likely to follow if the UK manages to pull off this ridiculous stunt)."



God forbid that the above should come to pass.

You need to be able to get above as much wx as possible so I agree with IO540 - being able to get up into the teen flight levels makes life more pleasant and safer.

So we are either talking a turbocharged engine or a normally aspirated aircraft with excellent performance that can reach these levels. This narrows the field down somewhat.

A glass panel is the way of the future without a doubt. Most new production aircraft from decent manufacturers have this as an option and I can't begin to tell you how great a G1000 with weather, traffic and terrain superimposed is - really cuts the workload.

You need de-icing - even in July in Southern Europe. At some points the legs you mentioned will involve crossing fronts and they mean ice.

You will need oxygen, a portable oximeter and a wife who doesn't mind wearing the mask/canula (or a pressurised airframe).

You need a long range - so you can cross the whole of Europe without having to worry about the cost and hassles of intermediate fuel stops and the additional wear and tear, risk and wasted time of extra stops.

FAA/IR is easiest, least expensive and best IMHO.

PM me and I'll give you my shortlist of airframe choices (depends on budget - I have no vested interest in A/C sales),

SB

[IO540]

Worth mentioning that a glass panel might be mandatory to sell planes these days but it adds nothing to mission capability, and probably doesn't help with pilot workload either.
The G1000 is basically a GNS530 with engine instruments added.
It won't give you enroute weather (no service in Europe), won't give you a lot of useful traffic (few people fly with transponders, currently, and there no Mode S traffic uplink in Europe). Terrain is useful but this is normally taken care of during planning.
It also concentrates failures and expenditure into one item which, when it goes, is going to set you back massively, lending a whole new meaning to "partial panel" :)

Prop de-ice is very effective and far cheaper than full de-ice of any kind.

The other thing is that the only way to get a glass panel, generally, is to buy something new. GBP 150k would get you a new C172 whose IFR mission capability is close to useless. A good used TB20 will cost less and will do far more.

One can do it for less - plenty of 30 year old planes around with the equipment - but then one is very likely looking at knackered avionics and this tends to cost a lot of money. That's why I believe buying something really old just means you spend the money over the next few years.

[scooter boy]

IO540
I would assume by your attitude to the glass cockpit that you have logged little time in aircraft with glass panel technology or TCAS.
Please come flying with me and I will be happy to attempt to change your mind about any perceived shortcomings you see with glass panels - including systems integration, systems redundancy, pilot workload (incredibly light) and of course TCAS (which I hope now to never fly without). I would also say that most aircraft appear on the display whether squawking mode A, C or S and that the majority of aircraft in the airspace I venture into are transponder equipped. It is amazing what you miss with the visual scan - the TCAS is a real eye-opener.

Interestingly when I visited the Mooney factory in November 2004 they had plenty of new orders for G1000 equipped A/C and none for A/C with conventional panels.
A retired 747 training captain friend of mine (who trained me to fly the Mooney with the glass panel) predicts that within the next 10 years glass will become the norm in new aircraft.

Having logged 250+ hrs IFR with the G1000 over the last 2 years I can tell you I won't be going back to steam in a hurry.

Don't knock it til you've tried it,

SB

[S-Works]

I like the glass panel's a lot, quite a bit of time now on the G1000 and some on the avidyne before it. Without doubt it will be the future and a welcome one. However I do like my old steam gear, it is comforting and easy to fly IFR.

I have a GNS430, GMA340 Audio Panel, GTX330 Mode S, MX170C Dig Nav Comm, ADF, FS450 fuel computer and a trusty 296 for my fit. The whole Garmin set up cost me £5500 plus VAT. David Jones Airspeed Aviation at Derby does a suberb job.

As far as capability is concerned, I do like the TB20 once you get over the 70's renault feel of it! But there are also plenty of cheaper aircraft out there that will IFR up for your needs. I have a 172XP which has a 18,400ft service ceiling this gets me to FL170 without problems and certainly over the top of the worst weather I am prepared to go near.

I would like an autopilot and am considering options like the STEC tyo interface to the GNS430. I don't mind hand flying but on a leg like La Rochell-Cranfield a couple of weeks ago over 3hrs in the clag makes it difficult to drink my coffee!

But as has been pointed out on here an IR is not a magic carpet that will allow you to fly anytime it just gives you more options.

[drauk]

I thought it was interesting that (AFAIK) the new TBM 850 doesn't use a glass cockpit. Or rather, it does use some moderate-sized electronic displays, but they are independent of one another, rather than a big G1000 type setup.

Also I don't think it'll take ten years for the likes of most certified 4 seaters - I believe the majority of new ones are already being supplied with fully integrated glass cockpits.

I've flown with TCAS extensively in the US and I loved it, but anytime it was busy it tended to be in a Mode C veil area. It amazes me how many "contacts" in the UK are not using transponders.

I've not flown with a G1000. I find an HSI and a decent GPS+MFD makes the basic control and NAV pretty straightforward. I don't doubt that glass cockpits are the way of the future regardless. I like the idea of multiple devices rather than one big black box though. And I don't think it adds to the mission capability of a given aeroplane, though nor do sheepskin seat covers but they're damned comfortable (if rather ugly).

Bose-X, get that AP! I recently moved from a plane without one to one with one and it has made more difference than I thought it would. I am having it upgraded to GPSS as we speak. I'd always assumed it was just a question of the GPS saying "turn left or turn right" but it's more complicated, involving your ground speed, turn anticipation etc. With a suitable GPS it'll fly holds, DME arcs and the rest.

[IO540]

There is no doubt that new planes cannot be even given away without a glass panel or two, but that doesn't mean this is the right time to spend 150k plus buying a plane with a glass cockpit. Of course if your budget is 250k and you are getting an SR22 or similar then you will get one anyway, which is OK.

The TBM850 doesn't use glass because, according to Socata, the autopilot options on the currently popular GA glass (G1000 or Entegra, basically) are not adequate for the aircraft performance. Also, it's evident that Socata play very safe, in terms of both certification issues (the TBM850 is far more similar to the TBM700 than one would expect) and in terms of risking a huge U.S. business on avionics issues. There are loads of reports of these units crashing in mid-flight, and while one can dump that kind of an issue onto the fairly supple low-end-GA community like us, TBM owners who paid 10x more would not wear it, and would be on the phone to their lawyers in no time at all.

At low levels, say below 3000ft, I would be the great majority, perhaps 90%, of GA traffic is non transponding; this makes TCAS of very limited value. At higher levels this changes but then there is very little GA traffic up there anyway. If I was spending 10k or so I would get GPWS or similar; one is far more likely to fly into a hill than into another plane.

I would be a little careful with a 18k flight manual ceiling on a C172. A tiny bit of ice on the prop is going to halve that figure. That's why a de-iced prop is such good value - even if the plane as a whole is not certified for any icing whatsoever.

As I say, if the budget is 250k then it's easy, but I didn't get that impression from the original poster. That's why I am listing all these things. There is more to IFR/airways than screwing in a GNS430; the weather doesn't care whether you have an IR or not and one does need good performance.