I infringed today . . . [Archive]

Stik

22nd Aug 2006, 23:02

I'm feeling pretty crappy right now, after screwing up badly ... I think I've learned a big lesson and maybe it can help others too . Here's what happened.

I was flying my first solo navex land away, and infringed Luton ATZ.

Briefly, the circumstances were as follows: my route was from Blackbushe to Cranfield via Westcott and Woburn. Everything was going fine approaching Westcott, where there was intense glider activity - I had seen 3 or 4 in the vicinity. As I approached Westcott, it was necessary to make a turn to give the gliders plenty of room. Consequently, I was unable to actually turn toward Woburn, precisely where I had intended. I thought I was now north of Westcott so turned 090 to intercept my intended heading of 056.

I was receiving a FIS from Cranfield Approach, who requested I report overhead Woburn. As the leg progressed, I saw a town in my 10 o'clock (I took as Milton Keynes), another in my 2 o'clock (which I took as Leighton Buzzard). I made out a disused field abeam on my LHS, around my half way point. (I took this as the disused field at Little Horwood). As everything seemed to ‘fit’, I maintained the heading. Unfortunately, the towns were in fact Leighton Buzzard to my left, and Hemel Hempstead to my right. The disused field was Wing. As the ETA to Woburn approached I was concerned that I did not have the abbey or village in sight, but soon made out a manor with a lake ahead. The conurbation to my left was larger than it should have been and the manor did not look right. . (I had flown the leg dual the previous week). 'Alarm' bells started ringing in my head. Despite this, I reported 'overhead Woburn' and was asked to report downwind. My heading now was planned as 358, but the field I could see was more like 030 . . . the 'alarm bells got louder'. Cranfield asked my position and I think it was at this point, I told them I was uncertain. Another aircraft on frequency reported they believed me to be overhead 'the brickworks' although I could not confirm that. Cranfield believed they had me visual, but by this time I could make out the field much more clearly and it was definitely not Cranfield. I reported that I could see jets on ‘’rwy 06’’, and it was now blatantly obvious I was in the Luton ATZ.

Cranfield passed me on to Luton ATC who vectored me to my intended destination. I was mortified with my error and very nervous. I joined the circuit at Cranfield from left base and landed safely. Unsurprisingly, it was far from my best effort in a circuit.

Luton ATC had been splendid - very calm, helpful and no hint of chastisement, only a request to telephone the ATC supervisor at Luton upon landing. This I did, and gave a brief account, explaining I must have become disoriented after avoiding gliders around Westcott. It seemed a poor excuse, and it is only now, sat at home with my chart on the desk can I understand how I let this happen.

After telephoning the school, I flew the return leg, nervously but without any difficulty. I was very happy to touch down at ‘home’.

My experience so far ? I'm a 35 hour JARPPL student. I fly two or three times a week subject to weather. I've passed all but the RT exams. I was feeling quietly confident about this part of the training, but this has 'knocked me for six'. My FI is being very supportive, I'm going in tommorrow to talk it over again and weather permitting, fly it dual again. (although at the moment - I'm not sure how I feel about that !)

It is a bit late in the day now, but I can see how I got into the situation. Reasons, rather than excuses: - the geography was uncannily like my intended route; perhaps the westerly wind was stronger than planned for; but mainly, I was not north of Wescott after my manoeuvring turns? My lesson from all this is to trust my training more and be more proactive. The minute those ''alarm bells'' began to ring I should have acted. I should've requested a position fix there and then, rather than taking comfort in ATC’s supposition that they had me in sight of their field. I was the pilot - it was my responsibility.

I'm not sure what happens next . . .

ShyTorque

22nd Aug 2006, 23:18

What happens next is that you feel roughed up for a few days.

You work out exactly where you made your mistakes. You learn from them and you carry on.

Like all of us muckers did. ;)

stickandrudderman

22nd Aug 2006, 23:21

Don't worry about it. Go and do your next trip solo and if you get lost call 121.5 and they'll sort you out no problem, no sweat, no bollockings. Just do it early!
Remember, they're not like Plod, looking for any excuse to give you a ticket, they want to help you stay out of trouble.:)

White Bear

22nd Aug 2006, 23:23

Stik,
Ease up on yourself.
You’re a 35 hour student pilot; you know just enough to get the aircraft airborne, and land it again, if the wind is right.
Pilotage Navigation can be difficult sometimes; the view is very different from up there, and it takes a little getting used too.
Everyone screws up, everyone.
You walked away, you get to use the aeroplane again, so it was a good lesson.
Forgive yourself.:ok:
Regards,
W.B.

Final 3 Greens

23rd Aug 2006, 04:51

Stik

Firstly you have learned an important lesson, it doesn't take very long to get disoriented. It can happen to all of us.

Secondly, your attitude is exemplary, you will be a safe pilot.

Third, if you ever feel that you are unsure immediately call up 121.5 and ask for a training fix - within seconds they will tell you, without any fuss, a relative bearing to a town.

Fourth, if you are still unhappy, inform 121.5 that you are uncertain of your position and they will help you. Don't hesitate, D&D are there to help you and they will.

Finally, post PPL, it's worth spending more time with an instructor becoming comfortable with radio nav techniques (beacon tracking) and basic GPS use.

Then you will have two additional sources of nav info to fall back on.

And very finally, if you ever read the "skygods" on PPrune complaining about PPLs blocking their 121.5/guard channel, please ignore this, the UK authorities have provided the Training Fix and Practice Pan services to aid students like you on navexes, as an aid to flight safety.

kookabat

23rd Aug 2006, 05:42

Stik: Well done 'fessing up. We all make mistakes like that... I got lost on my solo nav right before my flight test and had to get ATC assistance... I've stuffed up a few more times as well, I can tell you. You talk about it to various people, you feel bad for a few days, but you learn from the experience and you certainly won't be making THAT little mistake again!

You have the right attitude for a pilot in any case. Anyone who DOESN'T feel a little bad after something like that obviously doesn't care enough.

:ok:

B Fraser

23rd Aug 2006, 06:24

There are two types of student, those who have...... and those who will.

The D&D team on 121.5 are a great bunch and have all sorts of clever methods for getting you out of trouble. Ask your flying club to arrange a visit to West Drayton and you will have a very informative day out.

bookworm

23rd Aug 2006, 07:02

As the leg progressed, I saw a town in my 10 o'clock (I took as Milton Keynes), another in my 2 o'clock (which I took as Leighton Buzzard). I made out a disused field abeam on my LHS, around my half way point. (I took this as the disused field at Little Horwood). As everything seemed to ‘fit’, I maintained the heading. Unfortunately, the towns were in fact Leighton Buzzard to my left, and Hemel Hempstead to my right.

The day they stick large visual idents on towns, lakes and roads is the day I'll stop banging on about the CAA's regressive attitude to GPS.

FREDAcheck

23rd Aug 2006, 07:17

There are two types of student, those who have...... and those who will.

I'd expand that. There are three types of pilot:
- those that make mistakes and admit it
- those that make mistakes and don't admit it
- those that make mistakes and don't even know it

Well done for realising, and dealing with it well. And welcome to the club of bruised egos that aren't as good as we'd like to be, but always try to learn from mistakes.

stiknruda

23rd Aug 2006, 07:25

Dear chap - as somebody has already said, we've all made mistakes! No one is dead, no one is injured or inconvenienced - chalk it down to experience!

Many folk with greater experience have made much bigger mistakes - some of us have even landed at the wrong airport, in my case it was at a temporary crop spraying strip instead of a large tarmac runway!

When is your next sortie?:ok:

Stik

Genghis the Engineer

23rd Aug 2006, 07:59

Well handled.

You made a navigational mistake; this is a normal state of affairs for anybody flying light aeroplanes. We all do our very best not to, but don't always succeed, however experienced.

Then, using available resources you got out of trouble, without going to pieces, and spoke to the people you needed to speak to. Again well done.

For a 35 hour pilot, you are a credit to yourself and your instructor. Learn from what happened, and handle any future mistakes as well, and you'll continue to be.

Well done, and stop beating yourself up - it's not necessary. I'd not expect that anybody will take any action against anybody for this - it might appear as a footnote in a report somewhere with some lessons to be learned from it (so if somebody does come and ask you more questions, don't worry, just be open and honest with them - as I'm sure from your attitude above you would be anyhow).

G

(Also got lost on my QXC, and although I didn't infringe any airspace, probably didn't handle it as well as you have).

Choxolate

23rd Aug 2006, 08:18

I concur with the sentiments of the earlier postings.

Importantly when you realised you had cocked up you did the right thing, we have ALL done it to a greater or lesser extent only some do not learn from their mistakes (some do not even realise or admit that it had happened.) One thing is for sure you are now a safer pilot and that is a GOOD thing.

The only people who do not make mistakes are those who do not do anything. You will make more mistakes but if you approach them with the same attitude you'll be fine.

I would estimate that on average I make at least one recognised "error" on every other flight - most are minor (frogetting to do a FREDA check, forgetting to switch tanks at the right time etc.) but some are real ring tighteners.

Don't wear a hairshirt and lash yourself - if you do not read PILOT magazine then have a look at the back page next time you get hold of a copy - ILAFFT - (I learnt about flying from that) is always excellent reading.

Standard Noise

23rd Aug 2006, 08:33

Stik - as an ATCO, I'd say it sounds like you got into this situation through trying to do the right thing ie avoiding the gliders. No ATCO could or should blame you for taking that course of action. As a result, you inadvertantly ended up inside CAS, ah well, it happens. What annoys ATCOs, is when it happens and we never find out why either because the a/c troggs through our zone and says nothing or they don't ring back to explain. Honest mistakes are honest mistakes, no two ways about it.
From the start of September, we will be filing on all infringements at Bristol, but only for auditing purposes. The CAA want to know how many infringements occur (with our new airspace) and the reasons, but only so they, and we, can work out a plan of action to try to prevent it from happening again and again, not for any want of "punishing" anyone.

It appears you admitted to yourself you needed help, got it, and did as you were asked by Luton, we as ATCOs couldn't ask for anything else, don't worry about it mate.

Maxflyer

23rd Aug 2006, 08:47

Briefly, the circumstances were as follows: my route was from Blackbushe to Cranfield via Westcott and Woburn.
Were you using the WCO NDB? Or was it just coincidentally on your route?
I didn't know that NDBs could be used for Navigation exercises during training (I wish I could have used them in mine!) is it something that is up to the instructor?
I mistook Duxford for Cambridge on one of my navexs. It was only the fact that I didn't think Cambridge had a concorde there that woke me up and prevented me from becaming a laughing stock:) ...although some would say that I am a laughing stock!

Bravo73

23rd Aug 2006, 09:35

Third, if you ever feel that you are unsure immediately call up 121.5 and ask for a training fix - within seconds they will tell you, without any fuss, a relative bearing to a town.

Fourth, if you are still unhappy, inform 121.5 that you are uncertain of your position and they will help you. Don't hesitate, D&D are there to help you and they will.

Final 3 Greens,

Agree with all of your sentiments (and great advice!) but just to clarify: if you are actually lost, tell D&D that you are lost. Don't try and 'hide' it by asking for a 'training fix'.

Give D&D the full info from the off. It would seem that some of the time, it's these bogus 'training fixes' that wind up the 'skygods' on 121.5.

HTH,

B73

Martin @ EGLK

23rd Aug 2006, 09:41

The one thing I've learnt about the CAA (including ATC's in zones) is that it's always better if you tell them about your errors before they come to you (if you have to tell them at all).

Between you and Cranfield, you did the right thing in realising your situation and taking the most appropriate action to rectify it. In this case, calling up Luton.

If you'd have just bimbled around a bit, interfered with Luton traffic & then found your way to Cranfield, both you & your instructor would on the receiving end of the CAA's wrath.

As it happens, to them, your probably just a statistic. Which in this case, is good.

markflyer6580

23rd Aug 2006, 11:37

I did it on a very short hop for maintainance about 2 flying hrs post skills test.

Infringed a restricted danger area around an RAF base,got as close as short final when I realized,I was plenty annoyed with myself at the time and it knocked my confidence as I had never got lost during training.
It was also the day I learned about scud running and vfr minima,I don't fly when its that bad anymore even for short bimbles.
Like you I called the RAF the day after as it was late on a sunday when it happened,fortunately the shiny red jets where in the hangars at the time and the place was closed,it would have been a different story midweek.
The SATCO was very good about it though and the general concencus at the club was that every body does it and thats the way it is.

I still get a bit nervous going through the luton/stanstead corridor now as a result,but have made sure my VOR tracking etc is up to scratch to ease things.

Enjoy the rest of your training:ok:

hobbit1983

23rd Aug 2006, 12:24

Low-hour PPL here - haven't infringed yet, but if/when I do so, I hope I handle it as well as you did :ok:

QDMQDMQDM

23rd Aug 2006, 12:39

I still get a bit nervous going through the luton/stanstead corridor now as a result,but have made sure my VOR tracking etc is up to scratch to ease things.

VOR?! Sod that and just get a GPS as soon as you are qualified. It ain't the be-all, but add that to a map and a compass and your chances of infringing are much reduced. I cannot believe the attitude to GPS in some corners in this country.

Why would you voluntarily fly with one arm tied behind your back? It's the same kind of attitude as kept parachutes out of planes in the first world war: just isn't gentlemanly, don't you know?

QDM

big.al

23rd Aug 2006, 12:53

Stik -
The things to remember about mistakes like this are:

we all make them

we will all make more of them

you have learnt from it

the learning will continue

the more mistakes you make, the more you will learn

how you deal with the situation once the mistake is made is paramount

and finally (my opinion)

whilst prevention is always better than cure (we all know the adage about the five 'P's) remaining calm in the face of adversity and seeking help where available is just as important a part of 'good airmanship' as trying to be a 'perfect pilot' who never makes a mistake... there is no such person of course.

I speak from (a lack of) experience - I have relatively few hours but plenty of mistakes in the bank, and rather than pretending I won't make any more errors I simply intend to learn from each one and try to avoid making the same one twice. Like you, I've beaten myself up over some of them for a while, but then realised after a time that it's counter-productive. Good luck with the continued training.

ShyTorque

23rd Aug 2006, 14:11

Final 3 Greens,
Agree with all of your sentiments (and great advice!) but just to clarify: if you are actually lost, tell D&D that you are lost. Don't try and 'hide' it by asking for a 'training fix'.
Give D&D the full info from the off. It would seem that some of the time, it's these bogus 'training fixes' that wind up the 'skygods' on 121.5.
HTH,
B73

A training fix isn't ever bogus and a trainee pilot shouldn't ever be nervous of asking for one, preferably in good time before it all goes completely pear shaped. It is one of the functions of D&D to give that service and they are always pleased to give it.

CAP 413 contains the following:
1.8 Training Fix
Pilots who do not wish to carry out a practice emergency but only wish to confirm
their position may request a ‘Training Fix’ on 121.5 MHz. This ‘Training Fix’ is
secondary in importance to actual emergency calls but takes precedence over
practice emergency calls in the event of simultaneous incidents.

The self-styled "skygods" are wrong to complain, in actual fact they themselves make most incorrect use of 121.5 mhz. The CAA agree with that view and recently (after some complaints from commercial pilots) carried out a survey then put out a letter telling them in not very couched terms to wind their necks in. (This was obviously not read by the so-called professional morons repeatedly asking for World Cup football results on the emergency freq. a short while back).

Stik

23rd Aug 2006, 14:14

I know where to come if I ever need reassurance ! Thanks to everyone for the support - it's good to know I'm not the only numpty out there!

I went into the school this morning as planned, and got another healthy dose of reassurance from my FI (and the other FI's) . . . . . . and then a 45 minute flight.

The weather was marginal, so we were in the circuit for several touch and go's. I now feel much better about this episode, and the best bit is; I managed to fly around the correct field !

Wx permitting - dual to Cranfield tommorrow . . . :\ :ugh:

Cheers all.

bookworm

23rd Aug 2006, 14:23

I mistook Duxford for Cambridge on one of my navexs. It was only the fact that I didn't think Cambridge had a concorde there that woke me up and prevented me from becaming a laughing stock:) ...although some would say that I am a laughing stock!

I imagine you got the Cambridge controllers' attention. Most of the time when someone calls final for 23 at Cambridge and can't be seen, they're on final for Stansted not Duxford. ;)

Superpilot

23rd Aug 2006, 15:27

After qualifying if at anytime you think you are relying too much on a GPS. Hand your GPS to a flying buddy. And navigate 100% visually, let your buddy correct you if you are going to infringe any airspace.

Whopity

23rd Aug 2006, 15:41

The day they stick large visual idents on towns, lakes and roads is the day I'll stop banging on about the CAA's regressive attitude to GPS.
I am sure that if you examined the infringement statistics you would discover that a high proportion involve pilots using GPS, so it does not solve the problem especially when learning to navigate!

Heading and Time! Heading and Time! Heading and Time!
What use are halfway positions unless they are drawn on the ground?

FlyingForFun

23rd Aug 2006, 16:04

Sounds to me like you messed up, then did exactly the right things to sort it out, just like others have said, so well done on that score.

Me - well, the last time I infringed controlled airspace, a few years ago, was very similar to what you did. I didn't turn at my planned turning point because of a large CB overhead the planned turning point. I went around the CB, then resumed my planned heading, cross-checked that the large dual carriageway was on my left hand side where I expected it - only it was the wrong dual carriageway, and the one which was now down my left hand side took me through the corner of Heathrow's zone. So I know exactly where you're coming from.

Although I understand where people are coming from when they say GPS is the answer to all navigation problems, I don't agree. GPS is an great additional tool to add to the repertoire. But what has happened in this case is that the primary tool - ded reckoning backed up by visual nav - hasn't worked.

There are two reasons why Stik bust controlled airspace:

The first, as Whopity says, is not sticking to his planned heading/time. In this case, he had to deviate from his plan to avoid gliders, but he needs tools for doing that and getting back on track. E.g., turn 30 degrees left, fly for one minutes, then resume original heading. Once clear of gliders, turn 30 degrees right, fly for one minute, and resume original heading again. This will put you back on track, a little later than originally planned. But it gets much harder if doing this means you miss your turning point, so:

The second reason is the way Stik fixed his position. He looked out the window, saw towns where he thought they ought to be, and, in his own words: "As everything seemed to ‘fit’, I maintained the heading". What he didn't do was look in detail at the towns he found, working from the big picture (the towns) down to the smaller details (the roads in and out of the towns, railway lines, shapes of the towns, towns' surroundings, etc). We've probably all experienced situations where we've made things fit even though they've been wrong, and it's only by looking first at the big picture, then at the detail, that you can avoid this trap.

Once Stik has learnt these techniques and become comfortable with them, that's the time to start introducing the GPS to suppliment them.

FFF
----------------

tangovictor

23rd Aug 2006, 17:32

well done & thank you for sharing, lets hope others learn from it
Oh Stick&Rudder, being ex "plod" traffic non I know ever look for a reason to give a ticket to a genuine driver, who's made, and admitted a mistake, only the ones that try to lie about it !
TV

IO540

23rd Aug 2006, 17:51

Final 3 Greens

23rd Aug 2006, 18:33

ShyTorque

A training fix isn't ever bogus

Thanks for making this port.

The statement from Bravo 73, although well intentioned, shows precisely why I made the point about skygods, who are opinion formers, but not always for the better :ugh:

Johnm

23rd Aug 2006, 19:36

The only time I've infringed (so far) was when the GPS packed up and I didn't think to steer further away from the nearby airspace boundary while using steam aids in IMC and ended up half a mile inside CAS, fortunately I had a service from the zone in question who were kindness itself.

stickandrudderman

23rd Aug 2006, 20:02

TV (now that particular achronym coupled with the knowledge of your previous employment condures up a multitude of images!)
The sentiment was that 121.5 is not something to be afraid of.
I'm sure you did your best in representing the positive side of Policing, but in this situation I considered it a useful analogy.:)

paddy johnson

23rd Aug 2006, 20:07

unforgiveable, time to draw the flying club Webley and take the gentlemans way out. Joking , the reality is everyone cocks up now and again, your turn today. play the rubber ball and bounce back, its how you earn your wings

CAT3C AUTOLAND

23rd Aug 2006, 21:33

Stik,

All good advice here, and like a lot of people have said, we have all done things in our flying careers that we are perhaps not proud of, but we learn from them.

Anyway, I have first hand experience of your flying skills, so be told, put it behind you, onwards and upwards :ok:.

I am looking forward to that pre-test when your qualifier is done, more spinning for you sir ;).

All the best, see you soon :).

theresalwaysone

24th Aug 2006, 05:51

I see your incident has been reported on Captain Jon's site. Looks like some good advice here

http://www.madeinbirmingham.org/kiss/askcaptainjon.htm

I think it was 'Just inside Luton CTZ'

Roffa

24th Aug 2006, 19:01

Whopity

I am sure that if you examined the infringement statistics you would discover that a high proportion involve pilots using GPS

Come on, you know me better that that. Supporting evidence please.

Take a look at the Fly On Track report (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAPAP2003_5.PDF) for some stats.

Of the infringements looked at in the report 96 or 58.2% were GPS equipped. There are various other numbers to be found in the report as well but if those figures are carried over to all infringements then there are a lot of aircraft carrying GPS still managing to infringe CAS.

Correct use of a GPS unit, and that includes having an up to date database, may be a large part of a solution to this issue but it's by no means the total answer that is sometimes suggested.

Final 3 Greens

24th Aug 2006, 19:23

Of the infringements looked at in the report 96 or 58.2% were GPS equipped.

The report does not specify the amount or % that were USING the GPS kit.

100% of aircraft which transgressed were equipped with landing gear.

GPS features much less than navigation issues and the (rather stupid) case study of a pilot reported GPS problem is clearly a human factors problem, not a GPS problem. Shock horror, the GPS will navigate you to where you program it to go .... seems to me that it worked perfectly and the issue was lack of double checking.

One could easily cite an example where the PIC landed wheels up because he forgot to extend the gear - does this mean that retracs are the spawn of the devil?

Roffa

24th Aug 2006, 20:10

Got the figures slightly wrong above.

47.9% were reportedly GPS equiped and 40.6% reported using GPS as an aid to navigation.

That still highlights an issue with GPS usage that needs to be addressed somewhere, which it is to an extent further towards the end of the report or alternatively...cue IO540 :)

Regarding addressing the issue(s) though, interestingly the report is over three years old now. I wonder how many, if any, of its recommendations have been acted upon?

IO540

24th Aug 2006, 21:22

I am off for a while so this is a quick reply only. Last time i read the report it reported 18% as using a "moving map". The others were presumably a non moving map camping shop style GPS; useless for situational awareness. Remember a lot of people carry a GPS planning to switch it on only if they get lost.......

I have no time to read it again for about 2 wks. Got 3000nm to fly, and 100% of it with GPS.

It's a near-useless report anyway, with the usual prejudiced categories like "over reliance on GPS" and unprofessional stuff like get-home-itis.

They should have analysed what exactly people did wrong to get lost; then one could learn something from it. The CAA should also go on a basic stats course.

I recall a recommendation in there that GPS should go into the PPL syllabus; very funny!!! Zero chance of that ever happening.

Nothing will ever change in this business. Too many vested interests. Schools just (mostly) want the £8000 from each punter and anyway most new PPLs don't go anywhere, so why bother? The CAA will do whatever the schools want.

The only way for an individual pilot to move on is to learn from somebody a bit more experienced, and yes buy a decent GPS :)

Gertrude the Wombat

24th Aug 2006, 21:32

The CAA should go on a basic stats course.

And so, people keep arguing, should all public bodies.

But of course it comes down to money - doing stats properly is expensive, and if it's a public body doing it it's your money - how much extra tax are you volunteering to pay?

(A real life example. Residents wanted a road closed to trucks during the night. The council thought it needed to at least know whether there were any trucks using that road at night. So it stuck two people in a parked car with a clipboard to count lorries for just one night, and on the basis of that data the decision was made.

Clearly completely useless statistics (other than the absolute observation that the number of trucks wasn't zero).

Why use people not a camera and a computer? Apparently there's no off the shelf image analysis software which can distinguish, at night, between the various categories of HCV and other large vehicles to get a reasonable count. Why does it need to be two people not just one? H&S nazis.

The cost of getting reasonable stats on which to base this decision would have been at least an order of magnitude greater than the cost of implementing it. What about cost/benefit? - was the benefit to the residents of not having the trucks outweighed or not by the cost to the truckers of having to drive a few yards further or time their journeys a few tens of minutes later? Haven't a clue.

Lots of public decisions are made like that.)

NuName

25th Aug 2006, 06:22

VOR?! Sod that and just get a GPS as soon as you are qualified. It ain't the be-all, but add that to a map and a compass and your chances of infringing are much reduced. I cannot believe the attitude to GPS in some corners in this country.

Why would you voluntarily fly with one arm tied behind your back? It's the same kind of attitude as kept parachutes out of planes in the first world war: just isn't gentlemanly, don't you know?

QDM
The poster is a 35 hour student. Do you really believe a GPS would enhance his performance for the future. We all have to learn the basics and this would not be achieved with GPS. He will do just fine, how many out there would publicly admit to a mistake? I doubt his FI would think thia a good suggestion.

SkyHawk-N

25th Aug 2006, 08:00

The poster is a 35 hour student. Do you really believe a GPS would enhance his performance for the future.

I personallly think it would. The situational awareness given by a GPS (used properly as a SECONDARY VFR navigation device) is invaluable in developing a novices confidence.

An example: "there's the town I need down there....or is it, that town over there looks like it as well....blimey I'm not too sure now.....oh lets just have a double check on the GPS.....ahhh it is the wrong town, the wind must be stronger than was reported. Right now I must now plan my adjustments...."

NuName

25th Aug 2006, 08:18

The UK PPL I believe requires navigation by dead reckoning, you need that skill first, even if it is a little traumatic. It pays dividends in the long run.

SkyHawk-N

25th Aug 2006, 08:26

The UK PPL I believe requires navigation by dead reckoning, you need that skill first, even if it is a little traumatic. It pays dividends in the long run.

A 'little traumatic' and not without it's dangers to both student and others. I agree 100% that dead reckoning skills are essential in the UK but I think there is a better ways of developing them nowadays.

NuName

25th Aug 2006, 08:29

Well I guess its all geared to having equipment failures and being able to cope when it happens

Choxolate

25th Aug 2006, 08:53

Learn by using map & stopwatch only, once competent then start using navaids such as GPS, VORS etc. but keep up the basic skills.

Bit like the way calculators have taken over from mental arithmetic - not a problem until the calculator doesn't work for any reason.

NuName

25th Aug 2006, 08:57

Right then. Seems we all agree. Obtain PPL using basic nav skills, pass test then explore the delights of radio and satellite navigation.

markflyer6580

25th Aug 2006, 09:01

I can't work the f*@king GPS in the a/c I usually fly,although its having a 430put in at the mo which should be better.
So for me post ppl and pre cpl, a map,whiz wheel and a pen does the job.
Its easy anyway if you do it right.:ok:

SkyHawk-N

25th Aug 2006, 09:06

Right then. Seems we all agree.

Not quite ;)

NuName

25th Aug 2006, 09:10

Not quite ;)
You would if you were training in the UK, you really would not have much choice.:ok:

ormus55

25th Aug 2006, 09:21

i was out of WW for a nav exercise, (rhs) and got lost over approx compton abbas.
it would have been really nice to have a gps map display just to check where we where.

i thought i was a half decent map reader, (ex rally navigator), but it was disconcerting for me as a student to realise that from the air, towns and roads etc.. look very much alike.
:eek: :confused:

situational awareness is essential, imho.

SkyHawk-N

25th Aug 2006, 09:30

You would if you were training in the UK, you really would not have much choice.:ok:

but that shouldn't stop us thinking that things could be improved :ok:

NuName

25th Aug 2006, 09:43

but that shouldn't stop us thinking that things could be improved :ok:
Certainly not, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I am quite a few thousand hours out of that situation now, I hated it when I was doing it and had quite a few nervous moments at the time. I still do a bit of private tuition from time to time and I always insist on a good understanding of basic nav. This IMHO can only be achieved initialy without the use of electronic equipment. Otherwise a dependancy will develop. Like the chap who made the anology of the calculator, what do you do when it fails or tells lies. And who had the knowledge to build it in the first place. Flying is a wonderful activity but it should be undertaken responsibly. To ask a student to learn dead reckoning navigation is not unreasonable and it is a skill that will stay with them for the rest of thier flying days. I have had occasion to lean on these skills after FMS failure, it still works.

QDMQDMQDM

25th Aug 2006, 17:47

Of course you need to learn DR, but GPS is a fact of life and it makes aviation safer. It is a near unbelievable, superb aid to basic navigation. It is far more accurate and easier than radio navigation, not to mention a damn sight simpler and less time consuming. You can still infringe, but it sure as hell helps in those dodgy situations where you're not quite sure which town is which and you're wandering around close to CAS.

The CAA chooses to ignore it completely. How does that improve flight safety? How does it improve flight safety to send PPL students off without the best, simplest aid to navigation ever invented?

QDM

White Bear

25th Aug 2006, 20:09

Whopity,
The fact that people with opinions like yours still exist, depresses me deeply. The Dakota was a great aircraft, the pinnacle of aviation in its day, but its no Boeing 757.
YE Gods it’s a wonder we’ve progressed at all. I have no desire to live in a world where doctors still bleed you, sail dominates the high seas, and only land owners get to vote.

Heading and Time you, say, well without constant reference to the ground, or when flying at night, only 1 in 100 aircraft from the much vaunted RAF could find Berlin, one Europe’s largest cities, never mind a little air field in the country. Those men were well trained, and had dedicated navigators, not one poor sod doing both jobs. Ded reckoning is totally dependant on winds aloft, and when was last time that forecast was correct!

If you’ve never used a moving map colour screen GPS with a up to date aviation data base displaying course, track, X track, altitude, destination and ETA readouts right there constantly in front of you, then I suggest you do. You will find you spend much more time with your head out of the cockpit than in it, looking and maps and fiddling with your watch.

For cross country work students don’t need to learn ‘ded reckoning’ any more than they need to learn how a rotary engine works.
They need to learn 2 things:
1.Pilotage; they need to learn to read a map, to draw line on it, and follow it.
2.Fuel management.
1 and 2 are for backup to GPS as primary navigation.

GPS has made flying safer and simpler, and I’m all for that. :ok:

Regards,
White Bear.

Does the Royal Navy still insist every able seaman can row?:ugh:

iamhere

25th Aug 2006, 20:27

Yes do learn how useful a GPS is. It is a real safety aid.

BUT PLEASE ALSO LEARN HOW TO USE THE GOOD OLD
MAP, COMPAS, WATCH AND THE MK.1. EYEBALL TO LOOK OUTSIDE.
YES, DO LOOK OUTSIDE AT LEAST 95% OF YOUR TIME.

The GPS will tell you where you are, and when you will arrive (hopefully), BUT is removes a big chunk of your situational awareness.

Example:-
Take any weekend or even professional pilot.
Let them fly about a bit using the GPS.
Then take it away, without warning and replace it with a standard map.
Sit back and watch the fun.
Over familar terrain its easy. Not so much fun.
BUT put them some where they've never been befor and then it really is fun.
The result is that most will become lost.
Yes LOST.
The professionals too.

You only need to be lost for a minute or too and ..... well ......

Fly with a pilot using a GPS in a light aircraft and I'll bet they spend more time looking at the GPS than the view outside. They are just accidents or incidents looking for somewhere to happen or for that matter, get lost.

:) Fly safe, don't be distracted by the instruments or GPS and enjoy the view outside.:)

White Bear

25th Aug 2006, 21:07

Yes do learn how useful a GPS is. It is a real safety aid.
Fly with a pilot using a GPS in a light aircraft and I'll bet they spend more time looking at the GPS than the view outside.???

We’re all entitled to our opinions, but I fail to see how working maps, watches, writing things down, estimating cross track, working the protractor and wiz wheel, guestimating how much, and in which direction to turn to get back on course, and all the other things that ‘ded reckoning’ requires can provide superior situational awareness.

I do recommend having a map to hand, and checking off your weigh points on the line you have drawn, but that only takes 10 seconds every 10 minutes. Hard to get lost then don’t you think?
W.B.

QDMQDMQDM

25th Aug 2006, 21:33

The GPS will tell you where you are, and when you will arrive (hopefully), BUT is removes a big chunk of your situational awareness.

This is total bollox, as far as I'm concerned.

I fail to understand why GPS appears to excite such anti feelings. It's an extraordinary aid to navigation. People who decry it in the ways expressed here are like people who don't like these new-fangled aileron things and think we should stick with wing-warping.

Get real: a moving map, GPS, in a split second glance, will tell you exactly where you are on the planet and which direction you're moving and how fast. What, for God's sake, is wrong with that? Why is it viewed as 'cheating'?

Gertrude the Wombat

25th Aug 2006, 21:54

We’re all entitled to our opinions, but I fail to see how working maps, watches, writing things down, estimating cross track, working the protractor and wiz wheel, guestimating how much, and in which direction to turn to get back on course, and all the other things that ‘ded reckoning’ requires can provide superior situational awareness.
Indeed.

So much easier just to use a GPS.

Such fun playing with the worlds most impenetrable user interface, such that it takes minutes to try to get it to do anything at all ... oh, no problem, programme the route on the ground before starting the engine, that way it doesn't cost you an extra £20 just to get your route in.

OK ... then there's a little bit of slightly iffy weather ... you've got a choice of going straight ahead - after all, you're fairly sure you can nearly see through that cloud - or trying to work out a diversion and programme that in, lemme see, pull the knob out and rotate four clicks anti-clockwise, press the cursor button three times, push the knob in and rotate seventeen clicks clockwise ... yes, I'm really sure I can nearly see through that cloud, OK straight ahead then, besides after all that heads-in time I'm already in the cloud.

Right, now, not sure entirely where I am - but never mind, the GPS has got lots of numbers displayed on it, that tells me exactly! Now, just let's try and relate all those numbers to my real map, whilst trying to maintain straight and level and keep a lookout ... er ... hmm ... er, can't quite get the picture ... ah! - the GPS has a moving map mode! - and I was clever enough to memorise the bizarre set of button pushes necessary to switch modes, so here we are! Er, yes. Now, what scale is that? - it shows one town and one road, not desperately helpful, am I half a mile away or ten miles away. I'm sure there was some controlled airspace around here somewhere??? - perhaps the previous hirer turned off that layer (not something I've ever learned how to turn back on)?? - perhaps I should have taken some notice of that warning about the database being out of date when I switched the thing on?? - yes, there was something in the school's flying order book about not relying on the airspace database.

And so on and so on ... hand helds, so you can familiarlise yourself with one device? Sure, and how many batteries do you carry with you, and the ones you drop go through which holes in the floor and jam which control cables ...

OK, so none of this is a problem if you're rich enough to have your own plane and your own GPS so that it's worth spending time learning how to use it properly and you're rich enough to fly often enough that you don't forget stuff, like in which order the 17 different display pages come and how do you turn the military airspace layer back on, and you're rich enough to afford the database updates and so on, but for the rest of us?

[devils-advocate-smilely]

(Yes I do usually programme my route into the GPS, and I sometimes even look at it. And one of the club aircraft has a large colour moving map, which entertains small boy passengers no end, but I only turn it on towards the end of the flight otherwise they'd never look out of the window.)

Gipsy Queen

26th Aug 2006, 03:55

An interesting topic and Stik was brave to start it.

Pilot navigation has never been particularly easy and in my experience has become less so since they stopped painting the names on the roofs of railway stations. Hell, it's difficult enough just to find a railway these days.

I'm too old to have any operational knowledge of this GPS gizmo but using it sounds very much easier then trying to get some sense out of a couple of ADFs, getting X marks the spot on the chart draped over your twitching knee, marking off drift and performing other calculations with your Airtour computer whilst passing through a frontal system in something as unstable on instruments as a PA30. That type of workload a pilot can do without. We thought Nirvana had arrived with the introduction of VOR and DME.

But these things quite intentionally were called "Navaids" as they are precisely that. In no way are they substitutes for proper navigation or situational awareness. However, as QDM3 astutely observes, there is little point in fighting with one hand behind your back and if GPS assists in a reduction of workload, leaving the pilot to do a generally better (for better, read "safer") job, why pooh-pooh it?

Having just brought myself up to date on the "Epaulette" thread, I have this mental picture of the "four bar wonder" climbing into a Cherokee 140 with his bag stuffed full of oudated Jeps, bubble sextant and sight reduction tables. Much more macho than a little handheld GPS which he can't use anyway. There are some tiresomely silly people out there.:ugh:

Diddley Dee

26th Aug 2006, 06:27

Stik

Just come across this thread.... I am a D&D controller & recently qualified PPL. Just to reiterate what the others have said from the horses mouth as it were.

If you ever begin to get an uneasy feeling about your nav call us sooner rather than later, that is part of the reason we are here. However as someone said earlier, if you are lost, say you are lost. If you just call for a training fix we will tell you where you are (although perhaps we wont if we have a real emegency on) and then move you on sharpish. However if you say you are lost we will stay with you until we have got you back into a position where you are 100% happy with where you are.

Have you called 121.5 for a training fix or a practice pan during your training? If not i would suggest you speak to your FI and give us a call so that you become comfortable with the use of 121.5....... we are here to help.

Regards
Diddley Dee.

Roffa

26th Aug 2006, 10:02

This is total bollox, as far as I'm concerned.
I fail to understand why GPS appears to excite such anti feelings. It's an extraordinary aid to navigation. People who decry it in the ways expressed here are like people who don't like these new-fangled aileron things and think we should stick with wing-warping.
Get real: a moving map, GPS, in a split second glance, will tell you exactly where you are on the planet and which direction you're moving and how fast. What, for God's sake, is wrong with that? Why is it viewed as 'cheating'?

A recent infringement caused a number of problems in the TMA.

A 7000 squawk was tracking west to east just north of the London Zone boundary at 3,500ft, on a steady track from airfield A out west to airfield B in the London area, affecting a number of fairly busy airfields en-route, you can probably figure out which ones.

After landing the pilot stated the reason for the infringement was a problem with his moving map GPS.

I certainly don't decry the use of GPS, but despite the fact that it is carried and used more often than not these days the fact remains that pilots, for whatever reason, are still managing to get themselves into places they are not meant to be whilst carrying and using GPS.

QDMQDMQDM

26th Aug 2006, 10:31

A recent infringement caused a number of problems in the TMA.

A 7000 squawk was tracking west to east just north of the London Zone boundary at 3,500ft, on a steady track from airfield A out west to airfield B in the London area, affecting a number of fairly busy airfields en-route, you can probably figure out which ones.

After landing the pilot stated the reason for the infringement was a problem with his moving map GPS.

I certainly don't decry the use of GPS, but despite the fact that it is carried and used more often than not these days the fact remains that pilots, for whatever reason, are still managing to get themselves into places they are not meant to be whilst carrying and using GPS.

Of course you can still infringe if you are carrying a GPS. It doesn't fly the aircraft for you.

The problem was infintely less likely to be the GPS itself than the pilot and haven't we got a crystal clear argument here for teaching students the correct way to use a GPS, rather than completely ignoring this form of 'illicit' unmentionable navigation during training and then expecting newly trained pilots to sort it out for themselves?

We teach children about sex these days (gasp, horror!) for exactly the same reason: so they can do things sensibly and responsibly, with due regard for the consequences and take the appropriate precautions.

Some people need to wake up and smell the coffee and stop living in the 1950s.

I apologise (slightly) for the irascible tone of my posts on this thread, but I find some of the attitudes expressed intolerably archaic and sanctimonious.

QDM

DenhamPPL

26th Aug 2006, 10:32

Hi Stik

Thanks for starting this thread.

I had my first solo last week at Denham and our local training area is the same as where you got a bit lost. It's certainly not the easiest bit of the UK to fly around as I have found whilst practising nav with my instructor. I think I'll be going out there alone at some point soon and your post has reminded me to keep a close eye on the map/wind/disused airfields etc. I'm also going to ask my instructor to take me through a training D&D fix with the nice people on 121.5 next week just in case I have similar problems to you in the future (I know one of my "land aways" for the QXC will possibly be Cranfield so it can only help!).

I do hope you feel better about the experience now especially following the positive responses from ATC on this thread. It has certainly made me feel more able to call them in future if I become unsure of my position.

Cheers

Andy