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Superpilot
21st Aug 2006, 14:57
Details on the OAT website.

Flies-like-a-chicken
21st Aug 2006, 15:05
Presumably it costs around £200 for the second stage of assessment like the Oxford Thomas Cook scheme...

raviolis
21st Aug 2006, 15:15
Presumably it costs around £200 for the second stage of assessment like the Oxford Thomas Cook scheme...

Hey I just got this email too (unwanted and unsolicited). They must be desperate for integrated students. Obviously they must be making good money with the selection fees.
Spoke to a few Thomas Cook Captains when their scheme was advertised and they didn't even know such thing existed, which shows you how important it is. I'll speak to Excel pilots too, and I'm sure I'll get the same answers (even worse , as most of them are Canadians based here just for the summer).

I wonder how long will those "sponsorships" (with 100% financial burden on the cadets and zero guarantees from the Airlines) go on before someone points them out to the Trading Standards !

flyingmutant
21st Aug 2006, 15:16
I love it how OAT again demand a maths A-level for one of their "sponsorship" schemes yet further down the page state:

"A recent survey into airline recruitment concluded that one of the most important attributes required of an airline pilot is team-working skills"

and not a maths a-level! so when will OAT stop barring perfectly good and possibly better candidates from applying simply because they don't have one :mad: exam :ugh:

Halfbaked_Boy
21st Aug 2006, 15:28
flyingmutant - Unfortunately, due to the massive numbers of applications that would undoubtedly be received if such a requirement were to be dispersed with, I believe it serves a filtering purpose as opposed to it being in place for 'security' reasons, especially seeing as the student bears the brunt of the cost, not the airline.
I am in agreement, however - I have an 'acquaintance' who is necked up to the eyeballs with qualifications... trust him with many simple, practical tasks, however, and he is useless and lacks a standard of common sense that would be normally expected of any individual, let alone a prospective airline pilot.

Most annoying, but something I am sure we are going to have to live with, at least for the foreseeable future I'm afraid.

Cheers, Jack.

EGAC_Ramper
21st Aug 2006, 16:08
Final Destination I'd stick well and truely with CTC myself...:ok:

UAU242
21st Aug 2006, 17:22
Security for the loan needed, only a conditional offer of employment, rubbish salary, maths a-level needed.....well that rules me out..

sicky
21st Aug 2006, 17:55
Starting salary of £18k... tell me they're joking?! Ok so they pay you the training costs, but these have already been more than deducted from your wages at that rate!

It says they pay you the same again in tax-free payments to pay off your loan

sicky
21st Aug 2006, 19:36
Is anybody else getting an error page when they click submit?

Superpilot
21st Aug 2006, 19:38
Glad to see more and more people now realising what integrated courses really are - major $pondulikas for the FTO's and nothing more. The airlines gain because they have debt ridden young employees who would think twice about leaving. If more of us went down the modular way, aiming to do everything as cheap as possible or to the degree that suited us best, we would be doing ourselves a favour and bettering our own job prospects.

I received this unsolicited email too. And you know what the ironic thing is, I'm probably not even eligible because I applied last year. :\

bluepeely
21st Aug 2006, 19:52
18k a year is sh:mad: te no matter how you dress it up, i earn not far off double that wiring councill houses in wigan and putting in alarms for little old ladies but i'm still going for it.

Why i hear you ask?? cos its possibly the best chance of getting a job we'll come across ,barr ctc , and in years to come we'll laugh about worrying bout the money cos we'll all be soo rich.

Will i regret it even if i'm 60k out of pocket????
Not if in 5 years time i'm cruising over the med in a white shirt instead of being covered in plaster and flea bites from a crack den in the slums of lancashire ,ripping up floorboards!:{

Those who want this job bad enough will bite the bullet and admit were being shafted but you've gotta live the dream:ok:

harrier007
21st Aug 2006, 20:05
sicky,
i to am getting an error page, have you had any luck?

captwannabe
21st Aug 2006, 20:06
in years to come we'll laugh about worrying bout the money cos we'll all be soo rich

:rolleyes:

asuweb
21st Aug 2006, 22:29
Pprune has always been full of bull**it, but this thread really does go that bit further..

Spoke to a few Thomas Cook Captains when their scheme was advertised and they didn't even know such thing existed, which shows you how important it is.

What, exactly, does that show? I'm sure if you asked those same captians the number of people they recruited, and from where, last year, or this year to date, they probably wouldn't have an answer either.

I love it how OAT again demand a maths A-level for one of their "sponsorship" schemes

Have you ever considered the fact that it is actually the airlines themselves that set the requirement for these schemes! As with most sponsorship schemes, the requirements are bound to be more restrictive.

Starting salary of £18k... tell me they're joking?!

No, they aren't joking. Through this scheme, you will also be paying off a £60k loan (interest rate 6.5%), tax-free, in 5 years. Do the Maths!

sagaris
21st Aug 2006, 23:11
superpilot: Bitterness seems to be the order of the day from you, who applied and clearly didnt make it. Where are you now? hmm... probably not in a 737/757 It would seem.

The market has changed, grow up and face it. One has to indeed bite the bullet, as the 'good old fashioned way' no longer cuts it for the majority anymore. I know of airlines who no longer consider fATPLs from modular training. Fact. I also publicly heard Willie Walsh explain that integrated students are preferred. In a market where employers can afford to be so picky, its an understandable point.

Financially, it is stated that starting salary is 18k with the same again tax free... My maths isnt the best, but that is 36k a year. Not unreasonable for any low hrs FO. BA give 28k.... but then they do pay the TR. Oh wait, so do Excel on this scheme! Coupled with the fact that 18k is tax free... that is surely one of the highest take home pays going, the tax saving alone must be pushing 35k over 5 years (lets not forget the 18k or so for the TR which is provided). This could mean a saving over time of over 50k. Surely this is a much better position than the modular guy whos spent 30k and is still struggling to seek employment. Also bear in mind that the loan is still over 11 years (excel have just set payments so they can be covered in 5), so after a few years, having paid the loan minimum (probably around 600 a month) - if you would be better off joining Cathay or one of the other 'big boys', go for it.

Nobodys making you take a 60k loan, if this is too much of a risk in your eyes, then dont do it. Go in knowing what level of debt you'll be getting yourself into, if you don't like the sound of it, then dont take it. Equally, if successful, you'll understand that you're probably in the best position in the business to deal with such a loan.

I met someone off a previous OAT/Excel scheme which was nigh on identical to this who is now in his RHS, and from what I can gather (and indeed what he said) he is leaps and bounds better off than his 'ordinary' FO colleagues.

Of course like the TCX scheme and indeed the Tfly one at FTE, there is no absolute guarantee that there is a job at the end, after all it is a cylcical and volatile industry we are part of (or want to be part of in this case). However, should no vacancies be available post-training, then rest assured those would-be excel pilots are about as high calibre as any other low hours jobseekers out there, and would no doubt have little difficulty getting into some other company's RHS thereafter. I would also assume that OAT would recognise this also, when forwarding names to airlines.

If you want it, this is as good a chance as you can get, and in my opinion (bearing in mind the calibre of those it involves) equally as good as CTC.

sicky
21st Aug 2006, 23:14
sicky,
i to am getting an error page, have you had any luck?

No luck at all yet. I am going to leave my PC on with the page open and filled in, then ring them up tomorrow morning. I assume it is OAT i should contact?

jimsmitty01
22nd Aug 2006, 02:05
Hey guys, does anyone know whether I can apply for the OAT integrated Atpl course without doing bloody maths at A Level or Uni!? Of course I passed at GCSE, but as they are not taking calls or even emails (which is very annoying) I was wondering if anyone is in the same predicament as me?

Although it says you need it in the 'requirements' section, I've had testing days with similar things in the past that said the same thing but still allowed me to give it a go non-the-less. - Anyone with any info? or are they that strict on that one? Cheers!

Groundloop
22nd Aug 2006, 08:11
I wonder how long will those "sponsorships" (with 100% financial burden on the cadets and zero guarantees from the Airlines) go on before someone points them out to the Trading Standards !

There are lots of different definitions of sponsor and sponsorship in the dictionary. Financial support does not have to be included. Therefore no problem with Trading Standards.

captwannabe
22nd Aug 2006, 08:45
Quote sagaris: I met someone off a previous OAT/Excel scheme which was nigh on identical to this who is now in his RHS, and from what I can gather (and indeed what he said) he is leaps and bounds better off than his 'ordinary' FO colleagues.
Complete twaddle. You think he's better off (financially I presume) because he says so. :rolleyes:

Quote: One has to indeed bite the bullet
Why? There are other ways to get to the RHS. Ts & Cs will continually become more eroded, especially for new recruits, if people indeed bite the bullet.

Quote: I know of airlines who no longer consider fATPLs from modular training
Yes, British Airways don't take low-hour pilots who have modular training.

CTC is still less expensive than OAT, and has better graduate placement.

scroggs
22nd Aug 2006, 09:14
Quote: I know of airlines who no longer consider fATPLs from modular training
Yes, British Airways don't take low-hour pilots who have modular training.



Yes, they do - though not (officially) straight from graduation. You'll find that quite a reasonable proportion of BA's low-hours (1500 hours or less) new-hires are from a modular background.

Scroggs

Superpilot
22nd Aug 2006, 09:17
sagaris, not bitter in any way. It's a fact that even those who apply for such schemes go into the venture extremely nervous (about the financial implications) and uncertain of the outcome. And that's exactly how I applied. I didn't make it, I didn't expect to. It was a good learning experience though. Since then however, I have wised up. It's now a no brainer. £35-40k with a school based down the road, living in the same property I'm paying a mortgage for, or up to £100k for a course based 100 miles for a chance of a job at the end. If I wanted to buy a job I'd take my cash to RyanAir :E

As for your suggestion that this is the way of the future....Only if you let it be.

captwannabe
22nd Aug 2006, 09:36
I stand corrected. Another reason to go modular! ;)

Boing7117
22nd Aug 2006, 10:58
It appears that this thread has brought together a bunch of bitter, anti-OAT folk who have jumped the gun with their comments about this scheme - bringing it down to sound like a pathetic attempt at recruit desperate people who want to be pilots and give an FTO a shedload of profit along the way.

I attended the Excel Airways assessment that was run last year at OAT and unfortunately for me, didn't get selected. But unlike most of you lot - I sat and listened to the details of the scheme from 'the horses mouth' and was extremely impressed with the deal being presented.

Yes the starting salary is a bit lower than most low-houred FO Jet positions but look carefully - it's the basic salary, and from what I recall, you still need to add on your duty pay / sector pay (sure someone from Excel could give you a ball park figure here).

The training cost is paid for. Full stop.

The type rating is paid for. No arguments.

Okay - so the job isn't guaranteed. Then again, nothing in life is guaranteed.

At the end of the day this is an opportunity to do a flying course at a well respected FTO (don't want to kick off any FTO vs FTO arguments here so just hear me out!) - with training costs going from zero hours to Frozen ATPL including Type Rating already paid for with a pretty excellent chance of starting work immediately after training.

I wish I were eligable.

sagaris
22nd Aug 2006, 11:20
Quote sagaris: I met someone off a previous OAT/Excel scheme which was nigh on identical to this who is now in his RHS, and from what I can gather (and indeed what he said) he is leaps and bounds better off than his 'ordinary' FO colleagues.
Complete twaddle. You think he's better off (financially I presume) because he says so. :rolleyes:

Quote: One has to indeed bite the bullet
Why? There are other ways to get to the RHS. Ts & Cs will continually become more eroded, especially for new recruits, if people indeed bite the bullet.

Quote: I know of airlines who no longer consider fATPLs from modular training
Yes, British Airways don't take low-hour pilots who have modular training.

CTC is still less expensive than OAT, and has better graduate placement.

1. not complete twaddle. do the maths - my starting salary was c35k a year gross. Theirs will be 36k. 18k of which is tax free. taking home more cash than any other first jet job i know of, by a fair whack too. Oh and his TR was paid for. Where are you again? oh as usual you're sat by your computer posting anti-integrated rubbish again.

2. I agree if ones bites the bullet and is willing to pay for all the training, low hours Ts and Cs will be eroded, but you find me someone who desperately wants to be a pilot, knowing an integrated scheme is what he needs, but will forfeit this for the betterment of the Ts and Cs for a following generation. Hense, times have changed im afraid. In this scheme (and other similar schemes) the TR is paid for too. 20k saving again.

Regarding the loan payments (should you have a loan), you have 11 years to pay back the HSBC loan, irrespective of how excel have structured payment to you. Remember the loan is between you and HSBC, not between HSBC and Excel/OAT. Therefore there is nothing stopping you paying off the loan on your own terms. If i had mortgages kids and all the rest of it, i'd not be paying this loan off in 5 years either. If the loan was the only debt I had, I think i'd be wise to use as much of that tax free cash as humanly possible to try and put this loan to bed.

CTC does have a better placement average compared to OAT, but i'd say if you were accepted onto one of these OAT schemes, the odds of immediate work are as high as CTC. The reason for CTC's figures is down to the selection. CTC is very selective, however statistically less selective than these OAT schemes. I believe that anyone who gets a place one this Excel scheme, or the previous Excel/TCX schemes would have had no difficulty getting into CTC. These are the people the airlines want. High calibre.

asuweb
22nd Aug 2006, 12:23
Hey guys, does anyone know whether I can apply for the OAT integrated Atpl course without doing bloody maths at A Level or Uni!? Of course I passed at GCSE, but as they are not taking calls or even emails (which is very annoying) I was wondering if anyone is in the same predicament as me?

Although it says you need it in the 'requirements' section, I've had testing days with similar things in the past that said the same thing but still allowed me to give it a go non-the-less. - Anyone with any info? or are they that strict on that one? Cheers!
I would suggest asking the question on the OAT Forum, which will allow the OAT training advisors to answer your question. However, since you don't have a Maths A-level or any advanced maths, it would seem that you don't meet the necessary requirements.

Propellerhead
24th Aug 2006, 10:45
It's up to the individual to decide whether the Excel / OAT course is for them and you'd be wise to explore all the different options. However, those that decide to go for it should be pleased at some of the negative attitudes on here - less competition! Besides, in my experience anyone who shows those kind of attitudes at this stage is unlikely to succeed at selection anyway!

You have to confront the commercial realities of the day, and if you want the job badly enough, and you're lucky enough to be able to get financial backing then go for it!

It's fair to say that someone on the Excel / OAT course still has a better chance of employment than those on a CTC course!! Also, I don't know many CTC graduates who get their type rating paid for (saving ~15k).

18k may not be a great amount to live on for a few years but it is possible in rented accomodation - its fair to say its more than the Excel cabin crew you will fly with will earn and they manage! Give it 5 years and either you will be close to a command or very marketable for a DEP salary at a major airline (BA / easy etc) earning 45k+ (more like 50-55k+ with allowances).

When you apply for training places you just have to learn to get on with it and jump through the hoops. Either that or someone else will.

Good luck.

balhambob
24th Aug 2006, 10:57
Anyone got any ideas how many places are going on the scheme?

I think it sounds like a great scheme altho no doubt all the OAT bashers will tell me otherwise!

Propellerhead
24th Aug 2006, 11:07
From the OAT website it would seem to be one course of Excel students, who will also be on a course with self sponsored students. Therefore as the average course is around 16-18 students (?) it's between 1 and 17!

balhambob
24th Aug 2006, 12:04
Cesco, How do you know it is 6 places?

rogueflyer01
25th Aug 2006, 09:00
Well i just applied for this scheme. Just wanted to wish everyone luck! sounds like a fantastic opportunity..:p

Cesco, How do you know it is 6 places?

Well last time they selected six so a reasonable assumption would be that they are looking or six this time. For the TCA scheme there were six too.. :)

BobbyK
30th Aug 2006, 16:14
Hey,
anyone else applied? I sent mine off on Monday night - good luck to all

balhambob
30th Aug 2006, 20:18
I submitted last night. I think it sounds like a fantastic scheme.

Good Luck to all

gearsupflapsupteasup
2nd Sep 2006, 23:24
excel's duty pay is £2.28 an hr tax free. On average i'm taking home £300-400 a month.

the 737-800 rocks, and excel is a really friendly airline to work for.

hope this helps!

BobbyK
4th Sep 2006, 17:02
Hey just got email saying im through to stage2! Woo! Anyone else?

Now i need to get the old aptitude tests a practicing...how exciting :)

I have to say the cynic in me isnt surprised given theyre charging £195 for this next stage :o

Weekillie
4th Sep 2006, 18:37
Me too!!! Like you, not surprised given the costs they can charge at Stage 2. However, time to get practicising!

BobbyK
4th Sep 2006, 18:40
Also did anyone by chance save the recruitment page that was up? Its gone down now the applciations closed but quite interested in the dates they were saying for interviews and things and just the general T+Cs

The Mixmaster
4th Sep 2006, 21:10
Yeah i'm down on 18th September... sweeet. Agree with you guys about having to pay all that dosh, I mean how much can it really cost to do some maths tests and play with a joystick!

rogueflyer01
4th Sep 2006, 22:03
Good luck all i shall see you there 2.

Yeah i'm down on 18th September... sweeet.

how do you know? :confused: i only recieved the one e-mail telling me that i had got through :confused:

Anyone else have their date?

:ok:

The Mixmaster
4th Sep 2006, 23:08
Ah no worries man. I sent them an email asking if I could have it after 12th as I've got phase 3 of ctc then. They got back to me this evening which was pretty impressive. I'm sure it said in the email that they'll let everyone know by tomorrow.:ok:

sicky
4th Sep 2006, 23:45
I have CTC Phase 2 on the 11th, a drive to/from Bournemouth and a hotel stay, plus accom for this stage 2 and the £195!

Will have to see which date they give me, it would be a huge shame to have to pull out. I've only just got the email which is too late to request a date aswell.

I need to have another look over how it is all financed to make sure i could afford it if i got it!

The Mixmaster
5th Sep 2006, 13:04
Also did anyone by chance save the recruitment page that was up? Its gone down now the applciations closed but quite interested in the dates they were saying for interviews and things and just the general T+Cs

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/excel/index.htm

sicky
5th Sep 2006, 15:22
Everybody get their email?

Unfortunately, they've given me Monday and potentially Tuesday. I've emailed back asking if they can put it back 24 hours, it was worth an ask but i know they won't be able to, so unfortunately it looks like i'll have to miss out on this one. It's a shame!

BobbyK
5th Sep 2006, 16:35
Havent got mine yet! Hopefully itll appear tonight :)
Shame about that sicky seems so harsh to rule people out for not making interview but i guess it makes the choice easier at the end of the day (or list shorter hehe!)

Cheers for the link mixmaster

HK2006
6th Sep 2006, 12:23
Managed to get the latest slot available but unfortunately spending the next 11 days approximately 17 hrs flight time and 11 time zones from the UK has put paid to this one. Shame as this is one of those rare beasts that doesn't exclude those of us of a more advanced age.

Best of luck to those heading down to Stage 2.

BobbyK
6th Sep 2006, 16:43
Ive got mine Monday 18th September in the afternoon slot! Anyone else?

AKirky
12th Sep 2006, 19:47
Yeah Ive got my Assessment starting at 13.00 hrs on Monday 18th September aswell! By any chance, are you stayin in the halls? Im stayin Sunday and Monday night!

TooL8
13th Sep 2006, 11:26
Through this scheme, you will also be paying off a £60k loan (interest rate 6.5%), tax-free, in 5 years. Do the Maths!
Wish I could, failed Maths A-Level ;) ... but you're right.

Tesco, with it's enormous clout (and cash reserves) has secured loans at 6.9%. 0.4% worse than the sponsorship route.

I hate it, I don't want to put myself or my family into bankrupcy, but the 'laws' of supply and demand in the pilot labour market mean that this is the deal for the mid-term.

The only sensible thing to do is plan for the high cost of training :{ and the interest payments on the loans and recognise that the lender will have their 'pound of flesh', regardless of whether that is the sponsoring airline or Tesco!

BobbyK
13th Sep 2006, 16:26
Check your pms Akirky!

AKirky
13th Sep 2006, 19:45
From What i understand, there are 6 people in each group! Well thats what it is for the normal OAT Skills Assessment! You been doin much revision?

BobbyK
13th Sep 2006, 20:03
not really just done a little bit of maths and physics reading - my computers not working which is really annoying because i was hoping to practice with my joystick for the other tests so all ive done is read the gcse bitesize pages :) How about you?

AKirky
13th Sep 2006, 20:11
Pretty much the same as yourself, mental arithmatic just dividin, square roots and that stuff, gcse bitesize aswell and have a friend goin through some stuff with me! For Microsoft Flight Sim are you talkin about? Ive got a 45 min flyin lesson on sat mornin which will hopefully help! Fingers crossed for both of us! Are you drivin up on the tuesday aswell?

A and C
14th Sep 2006, 07:55
The advantages of joining Excel are the best working enviroment that I have seen in any airline that I have worked for (five in total) and a pilot managment that has real open door policy.

In the summer you will work very hard and the roster has a habit of changing but I dont think that it is better or worse than others in the charter sector.

As for the OAT program I think that if you look at the way it is put together you may well find that you have to put up less taxed income than on some other programs, this could well save you 30% on some parts of the program in real money.

BobbyK
14th Sep 2006, 18:25
Yeah assuming I get invited back id drive up again on the tuesday...early start! Id hoped to play a bit of flight sim before hand but i guess ill have to do without, never mind. Flying sounds great though - good way to get the enthusiasm juices going hehe. Have you been before?

AKirky
14th Sep 2006, 18:34
Havent been before at all! Just its my b'day today and my dad got me it for a present. Lookin forward to it, but it will hopefully help with tests also, dont think they are too much to worry about anyway! My names Andy, just incase ur wanderin who i am on monday!

sicky
22nd Sep 2006, 16:34
Any news for anybody yet?

BobbyK
22nd Sep 2006, 19:43
We should hear on Monday! Not holding my breath though as my interview score was low...still if I go back for sim check I could have a place at Oxford - now do i go for interview at ctc too? :)

sicky
22nd Sep 2006, 20:07
How do you know your interview score was low?

BobbyK
23rd Sep 2006, 11:49
we had a debriefing at the end of the second day with a score out of 10 for interview and team work. As it was only Oxford and contracted assessors involved in the whole two days Excel are just gonna simply look at the scores and take their pick for the final round

sicky
23rd Sep 2006, 12:13
Oh right. I never had a debriefing at the end of the second day, then again i was interviewed second and left pretty much straight away after my interview to try and avoid some Friday afternoon traffic. I hope i didn't do wrong but they did say we were free to go straight after!

AKirky
24th Sep 2006, 13:28
Bobby, well done on gettin through to the 2nd day and all, you probably guessed, i didnt get through - my Math score was too low. I wonder, can you remember some of the maths topics - just so i can study it a bit more and go back to resit later on this year?

BobbyK
24th Sep 2006, 20:05
Hey Andy, as it turned out the rest of our group didnt actually get through so I was with 5 guys from the morning group on the next day.

Sorry to hear about the maths but good luck with the retakes. I cant remember exactly what was asked but I know there were general maths problems like pythagorass theorum, long divison, percentages...hmm not sure what else but it was definately the kind of stuff id been looking at on gcse bitesize - just maybe a bit wordier.

Sicky - Our debriefing was about 10 minutes after the interview and then we were free to go. Was it this excel scheme or the oxford app you went for? How did you do?

sicky
24th Sep 2006, 23:35
It was the Excel scheme, and i should find out tomorrow!! I've got everything crossed...want this sooo much :{

Nobody said anything about a debriefing, which were you there for?

sicky
25th Sep 2006, 15:47
Well that's me knocked out of this one! Unable to forward me to stage 3, so now i need to decide if i can afford OAT self-sponsored. I'm not so sure that i can.

BobbyK
25th Sep 2006, 16:30
Yeah same here - just got the email and not through, although its what i expected. The thing is though although this scheme is 'sponsored' if you went to oxford and ended up with a job straight away at the end of it youd be in no different situation to the people who get on this scheme anyway. The main advantage being they pay your loan off tax free but Im sure if you paid it off yourself with the higher starting salary of not being on the cadet payroll youd only be disadvantaged slightly.

Think im gonna go for CTC interview first before i make my decision about Oxford

sicky
25th Sep 2006, 18:15
I have stage 3 at Dibden manor on Wednesday for CTC - Lucky that i didnt put all my eggs into one basket!!