Monarch Boots off 2 Arab/Asian men AGP - MAN due pax complaints

[Easy Ryder]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5267884.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5269106.stm


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=401419&in_page_id=1770&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=NEWS&ct=5

Poor form by MON. Yes we leave in troubled times but that does not mean you kick people off because your pax feel uncomfortable due racial profiling. If they're not happy with the situation they should get off.

The airline seems to be on a role, in regards negative press, the media reportingthat they let a kid with no boarding pass get on board one aircraft and booting off 2 legitimate pax off another.

[MarcJF]

That's the point. Some Pax did get off, which prompted an investigation by the security services, and the two Asians were held for a while. Until something is done this type of situation could become more frequent, not saying it's right or wrong, just a fact.

[jesty]

Apparently (according to BBC TV news reporters), the passengers' suspicions were arroused when they saw the two gentlemen wearing clothes that set them apart from everyone else (who were predominantly UK holiday makers in shorts and flip flops), and talking Arabic.

Terrorism has won if you're afraid to fly in the company of people who don't dress like you or talk your language.

[Easy Ryder]

True MarkJF, but thats where it should end. They get off have their bags removed and catch the next flight. At no consequence to the 'percieved threat'.

One things for sure. The TERRORISTS of this world now realise they dont even HAVE to succeed in causing an OUTRAGE to achieve their aims. The effects are still felt from their demented plans. And whats more this kind of behaviour will result in further racial/cultural divisions, breeding more and more resentment.

What a crappy world to live in.......:ugh: :{

In refernce to the clothes - i mean how stupid. They must have had the forsight to find out the weather in MAN was.........cold (Highly unusual i know)! And dressed accordingly, i know i do!

I better leave my jacket at home whenever i'm going to work now. God help me if a PAX sees me on the flt deck with a jacket on. Sheesh

[DH121]

The airline seems to be on a role, letting a kid with no boarding pass get on board one aircraft

Please get your facts right - the young person got through airport security but was stopped from bording by the vigillance of the Monarch cabin crew.

[BISH]

I suspect, as is generally the case with the media, the information is incomplete and ALL the facts surrounding the incident have not been reported. This incident is something everyone is going to have to get use to, the positive side is that those who intend to harm will find it more difficult to achieve their aim, and the negative side is the innocent will have to accept the disruption, regardless of political correctness. Well done to the crew and the vigilance of the passengers. :D
EasyR :mad: , I think the crew who detected the 12 year old who had slipped through all the ‘professional’ security checks are to be congratulated on doing their job properly.

[Easy Ryder]

Yes your right the crew did do well, and will edit the above post to reflect this.

However to applaud the pax for their racism (and call it 'vigilance')...........??? WHAT A LOAD OF S#!T!!!!!!

[flybywire]

:= := :=

With all due respect to those passengers that nowadays feel nervous about flying due to the current situation, until I know for certain what exactly these people were doing to alarm the other passengers and the crew I will consider this simply a case of ignorance, intolerance and possibly racism.

I see nervous people fly every day, british, european, middle eastern, asian, african, america etc. If you are nervous of flying it doesn't matter what part of the world you're from. I have a few Arabian friends who don't feel comfortable flying these days because they too could be victims!!

I have been a cabin crew for several years and I have met thousands and thousands of people. I have been in difficult situations, including having to calm down a nervous, panicking passenger post 9/11 as she was scared that the middle eastern passengers that she had seen on boarding were going to blow up the plane.:ugh: She would not reason with me and at the end I had to carefully explain that since I speak arabic I would have understood if they had actually been talking about such plans :rolleyes:

There's a limit to everything, and until I read exactly what these people were doing to be taken off a flight, this will be my opinion.
I just hope, for the captain's/senior crew member's sake, that their behaviour was really endangering the aircraft, the passengers and the crew.
Otherwise.......monarch, you'd better save some money for the court case :=

FBW

And to those people who are scared/do not approve/are not able to tolerate other culture's way of dressing, language etc what the hell are they doing on a plane, going around the world?! One wonders....:rolleyes:

[Easy Ryder]

And to those people who are scared/do not approve/are not able to tolerate other culture's way of dressing, language etc what the hell are they doing on a plane, going around the world?! One wonders....:rolleyes:

LOL WELL SAID! :}

[Sunfish]

I have to agree with FBW, well said.


By the way, since not all terrorists are as dumb as people think. Is it possible that theses fiendish creatures might decide to disguise themselves?

Shave off the beard? Go blond? Wear a smart suit and tie? A clerical collar? Change their name to Fred Bloggs?


On a similar note,

I have an acquaintance who is a world renowned specialist in diseases of the blood who has an Arab name and is of arab appearance. He no longer attends conferences in the U.S. because of the hassle he receives when travelling. The community is poorer because of it.

God help us all if passengers are encouraged to "profile" their nieghbours.

[Jerricho]

And to those people who are scared/do not approve/are not able to tolerate other culture's way of dressing, language etc what the hell are they doing on a plane, going around the world?

They're the very ones you find sitting in a cafe in the middle of France demanding tomato sauce/HP sauce and bitching because the waiter doesn't speak English.

[Nov71]

Well said FbW!
Surely an appropriate response would have been to request the 2 Pax to de-plane so their ID could be verified and luggage/person searched again, whilst the aircraft & pax waited for them?

I know .. money!

[RevMan2]

What we have here is mob rule.

A sensible course would be to offer those passengers who feel uncomfortable with travelling in the company of other ethnic groups the option of disembarking, retrieving their luggage and finding their own way home.

And before the stones start flying.....

On the assumption, of course, that adequate security procedures were in place at the airport and that the "suspicious" passengers were doing nothing more threatening than talking in a non-English language

[Krystal n chips]

What we have here is mob rule.
A sensible course would be to offer those passengers who feel uncomfortable with travelling in the company of other ethnic groups the option of disembarking, retrieving their luggage and finding their own way home.
And before the stones start flying.....
On the assumption, of course, that adequate security procedures were in place at the airport and that the "suspicious" passengers were doing nothing more threatening than talking in a non-English language
I would concur wholeheartedly with that summation of events !!
When I watched the report on TV last night, my initial response was :mad: with regard to the pax who decided the two gentlemen concerned were "suspicious" and duly, it seems, acted as judge and jury. Then I started thinking a bit more. Given the circumstances, the choices the Captain, or whoever made the final decision of course, were limited I suppose. The report said they were off loaded for security reasons---possibly their own security ??--given that as of yet we know nothing about the pax involved in initiating the "mutiny":yuk: and lets's face it, a 4 hr flight with a lot, or even a few, disgruntled or totally bigoted / paranoid tabloid readers has the potential to turn very nasty, very quickly doesn't it ?. A tough set of circumstances for all involved at the time and with no easy option or simple solution readily apparent.
Me ? I would take a long, hard and detailed look at the those who decided to walk off in the first place. I also suspect that in the very near future, a letter from Messr's Sue, Grabbit and Run "acting on behalf of our clients" will be passing into the Monarch mail box. The other problem of course, is that a precedent ( of sorts ) has now been set and it doesn't take much, given the level of stupidity prevalent here in the UK--one area we are truly "world class" in :rolleyes: --for others to orchestrate a repeat performance at some point.

[Bumz_Rush]

According to a BBC interview the ejected pax were incorrectly dressed;

"wearing suits" and looked out of place on a Monarch flight from Malaga.

They were chatting between themselves...not screaming to the kids to shut the %%%% up....

Also looking at their watches.......perhaps the flight was " on time", and they were confused....


Thats just how down market air travel is going....

Pass me my VJL..... ....

Bumz

[BISH]

EasyR,

Racism or ‘profiling’? If it was racism shame on them. If it was due to something they had physically seen or heard I stand by my comments. If the professionals who work in security can make the ‘gaffs’ we have seen over the past 2 weeks I would prefer passengers and crew to maintain a self-preservation level of vigilance. Stuff political correctness!

[PanPanYourself]

Is it me or are airplanes usually pretty damn cold inside? I can't say I've ever been comfortable wearing just a t-shirt on a flight, and I've been on literarly thousands of them. Also, as already pointed out, Manchester would be way too cold to be prancing around in shorts and flip flops upon the supposedly early morning arrival of the flight. So I think the jackasses in shorts were the ones dressed suspiciously and if I were the captain I would have ejected all the passengers with shorts, bitch-slapped the ones who disembarked voluntarily, and been on my merry way. If the captain was concerned for the safety of the two asians he should have gotten rid of the passengers posing a threat to them, even if that meant getting rid of half the passengers, that would have been the RIGHT thing to do, but not economical. Monarch and the passengers owe a huge apology to these mistreated young gentlemen. This is all assuming that the event was reported correctly, and judging by an interview on the BBC with a couple of passengers in which the only cause for suspicion mentioned was language and dress, I believe it was reported correctly. Brits are notoriously racist by the way... is it racist of me to say that?

I hope a passenger on that flight reads this (slim chance), but if you are one of them, you are a jackass, do the world a favor and go jump off a cliff.

[Taildragger67]

Maybe one way to shut everyone up would've been to offload everyone and give them all a pat-down?

SO now when my employer demands that I travel Ryanair on co. business and I'm dressed in a suit rather than casuals, I can expect demands from other punters that I be off-loaded. Especially if I pull out my religious book (not saying what type) and start thumbing through it.

[Easy Ryder]

BISH,

This case definitely stinks of racism period.... You can hide behind the banner of profiling all you want. But if someone is dressed differently and speaking another language warrants a terror alert then your living in la la land. Chinese, South Americans and Africans must all be terrorists too! Not to mention most of Europe! All they say they heard as far as we know is that they spoke Arabic. I wouldnt be suprised if the average holiday maker, couldnt tell the difference between Arabic, Urdu, Hindi and the many other Asian languages. It also didnt occur to me that Arabic was the official terrorist language.... if someone speaks it they must want to blow something up right?

Yes political correctness has gone too far in SOME respects, but i strongly feel you would feel otherwise (about profiling) if the shoe was on the other foot, and you were continuously pulled aside by security at airports because of your ethnicity, gawked at by fellow pax when boarding & sitting on trains, and ulimately being booted off a flight because of others bigoted/ignorant attitudes.

You can claim all you want, that if you were in that position you'd be quite happy to put up with it given the circumstances. For a little while yes. But then you'll seen get tired of being judged for the colour of your skin or religion.

You will never understand how it feels because you will never be in that position.

Now before someone says if you dont like it you should go back 'home'! The answer to that is..... ONE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO!

[Bumz_Rush]

They were wearing white robes, beards, and holding books with words I could not understand....and muttering under their breath.....

Not surprising, from Jeddah to Dubai......

I was the odd one out....reading a computer magazine....

Perhaps I should have been removed.....


Bumz

[FFFlyer]

The trouble is you just never know.
http://www.anecdotage.com/index.php?aid=9689

[BISH]

EasyR,

I agree with much of what you say, but my original point was: “I suspect, as is generally the case with the media, the information is incomplete and ALL the facts surrounding the incident have not been reported.”

From the Daily Mail: “Worries spread after a female passenger said she had heard something that alarmed her”.

If it was simply that they were speaking Arabic your sentiments are spot on. If she heard them say something that could be specifically construed as a threat, even if they said it as a joke considering the attention they were receiving, the lady was right to be concerned.

It is unfortunate that everyone from the Muslim community is being considered a threat, just as every Irish person was at the height of the IRA bombing campaign. It is wrong to paint everyone with the same brush, but when you know there is a threat from a specific area I don’t believe it is unreasonable to concentrate on that area. For the true blue bigots out there it will be interesting to see what they do when they board an aircraft with a Muslim Cap and F/O!

[Easy Ryder]

I agree with you 100% there BISH...........

Again, this whole debate, and sad state of affairs is exactly what these sick b*stards want.......:ugh:

The thing is how to we cure this 'disease' of thought.... :confused:

[Paradise Lost]

Read so much PpruNe lately, I can't remember who originally suggested the Herodic solution to whether it was racist or real perceived threat;
Offload the accuser(s) with the suspect pax. That should focus a few minds!

[MarcJF]

By off loading a Pax that highlights a valid concern, you risk everyone keeping quiet when perhaps they should not. Full screening, of everone, black, white, Asian etc has to be the way forward?

[DrKev]

By off loading a Pax that highlights a valid concern, you risk everyone keeping quiet when perhaps they should not.

And what is a valid concern for passengers to have? How many passengers are qualified to make such judgements over those of the security, airport, or airline staff? Am I allowed demand that fat smelly guy next to me gets off the plane too, or am I, as SLF, only allowed to demand such things of the airline crew if the people concered pose a terrorist threat to my (untrained) eyes?

Personally, I can't understand how the crew came to the decision keep the mutinous cretins who disembarked and then comply with their demands that two passengers with valid boarding cards be offloaded (a sentiment echoed by a MON crew member I was talking to today). While awaiting further info...

:mad: :ugh: :mad: !!

[flybywire]

EasyR, Krystal, Rev and all the other I totally agree.

I know that in such situations it is difficult to balance what is sensible to do (sit down and let's go! in this case) and what is practically possible (cabin staff always try to take care of pax even when their requests are ridiculous and/or really weird).

I want to know what the crew saw to get to the point of offloading these people. The captain/senior crew member must have been really convinced that something was going on to take such a HUGE responsibility that will probably cost monarch a lot of money. I would have been so ashamed to be part of that crew I would have probably offloaded myself after that.

As far as I have read, none of the "rebelling" pax understood a word of Arabic (pity on them, it's a truly beautiful and colourful language). Speaking in Arabic itself and keeping an eye on the watch isn't something that would require the offloading of a passenger. MUTINY - as in disobeying crew safety instructions in any situation etc - in fact is something that would make me seriously thinking of getting rid of somebody before take off and definitely something that my airline would back me up for.

I suppose these Arabian passengers went through more checks before being allowed to fly back to the UK (proving the crew&punters wrong) so I would be happy to see them take monarch to court and the crew and passengers obliged to apologise to them publicly.
This stupid (or zealous, depending on the point of view:rolleyes: ) attitude is doing nothing but create more expedients for future attacks.

Ignorance is the world's worst desease and unfortunately it is spreading very quickly :{

FBW

[flybywire]

By off loading a Pax that highlights a valid concern, you risk everyone keeping quiet when perhaps they should not. Full screening, of everone, black, white, Asian etc has to be the way forward?

What was the VALID concern, then? Please enlighten us!

speaking another language, looking at the watch, and being dressed appropriately when everybody else is dressed as if they were still on the beach alone are not valid concerns!!!

Actually we could talk about sandals, bikini tops etc that people seem to wear more and more on their flight back from their holiday (even in winter!) as I do not think it is an ucceptable dress code when using public transport!!!

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

If I read the story correctly, the pax who objected to flying with the 2 "Arabic-looking" men registered their complaint by getting off the aeroplane.
Any passenger is free to choose not to fly. However, if they are on non-flexible tickets, the airline is under no obligation whatsoever to help them make other arrangements. Any pax who offload themselves from one of my flights will need to be very persuasive indeed before I let them board a second time...

[El Grifo]

It really is about time we stopped referring to this new found fear of islam as "racist"

For fear of islam is entirely at the root of the problem.

The closest I can come to define the condition, is "ethnicity" since the belief system crosses many racial divides.

Can anyone come up with a more definitive term ?

:mad:

[flybywire]

Ignorance. As for I ignore what Islam is therefore I am scared of it.

I am not scared of Islam (why should I be?)
I fear bad people and their bad intentions. I fear the intentions of the integralists who blow themselves up as much as I fear the person who killed a woman in the town I used to live in just a couple of months ago (and he was british, of british origin). I fear Bush's stupidity and so on in exactly the same way. But I do not fear Islam or Christianity or Buddhism or whatever you want to call it.

But ignoring therefore being scared of something doesn't give anybody the right to behave like that :(

[tonyflaire]

I am arab looking, yet i am a Captain for a UK airline,:ok:
I fly with FO's who are sometimes asian; :D

So should the passengers throw me off too? it just shows how stupid and out of hand this all is.

The Capt of the aircraft has the final word, I have had a similar situation, when someone said, ' we have a passenger on board who is dressed in fatigues and looks like a terrorist.' I accepted he had gone through security and immigration and flew him back without incident.
If PAX on my flight would have decided not to travel, I would have been delighted to off load them instead!

happy flying.

[jabird]

"Me ? I would take a long, hard and detailed look at the those who decided to walk off in the first place."

More worrying was the fact that chief agitator on behalf of the "observant" passengers was a college lecturer - usually the types who like to drill politically correct mumbo jumbo into the rest of us.

I presume no one here was actually on said flight, so we don't know full details, but:

1) What would be so unusual about anyone getting on a flight from Malaga, or any other airport on the Med, and speaking in Arabic, a common language in much of north Africa.

2) It is perfectly normal for someone of any religion to say a prayer before a flight. I haven't been on Saudia for a while, but this was done over the intercom when I flew with them back in the 90s - I assume it is still standard practice today on many Islamic state carriers?

3) People feel heat in different ways, not to mention the aircon at AGP, and onboard, as already mentioned above. Went to Sicily in March - for us, the weather - in the low 20s, was nice enough for t-shirts. We met some Sudanese travellers on the train who were dressed as if they were going to the North Pole - but they felt perfectly comfortable in such gear.

4) What is so unusual about anyone looking a bit scruffy on the way (back?)from Malaga? Especially for a 3am departure - anyone is going to be nervy at that time, and fear can work in both directions (pax get suspicious looks, start to get more nervous themselves and so on...)

5) Would it be too cynical to suggest the 787 announcement was rushed forward to divert attention away from this story? Probably, but doesn't alter the fact that any so-called profiling is something for trained members of staff to do, not fellow passengers.

[PaperTiger]

2) It is perfectly normal for someone of any religion to say a prayer before a flight. I haven't been on Saudia for a while, but this was done over the intercom when I flew with them back in the 90s - I assume it is still standard practice today on many Islamic state carriers?I think you are confusing the two incidents (Monarch/Skywest). There was no mention of praying at Malaga, aside from the relatively obvious fact that Monarch is not an Islamic state carrier :hmm:
Don't think I'd stand up and recite the 23rd Psalm on Saudia in any case :ouch:

[El Grifo]

Against the background of the slaughter of innocents around the world by dark skinned arab/asian looking, islamic terrorists and the press furore surrounding said occurences, I do not think this to be an entirely surprising turn of events.

Remember, this is reality we are talking about, real people's lives.

:mad:

[Yarpy]

From the Times:
The first eight to appear were all charged with conspiracy to murder and preparing to commit terrorism. Tanvir Hussain, 25, Ahmed Ali, 25, Umar Islam, 28, Arafat Khan, 25, Assad Ali Sarwar, 26, Adam Khatib, 19, Ibrahim Savant, 25 and Waheed Zaman, 22, were all ordered held in custody until a second court appearance on September 4.
Should we still conduct a thorough security search of Mr & Mrs Ponsonby, their two children Tarquin and Montgomery and their Aunt Mildred from Little Snoring by the Sea?

Or . . .

Should we just let people like them through quickly to ease congestion ?

[Nil nos tremefacit]

With the exception of the young black lad who converted, they are all Pakistani names. Not an Arab among them.

I lived and worked in the West Bank for 4 months. I couldn't tell the difference between Christian, secular and Muslim Arab males. Until I picked up some Arabic I couldn't even pick out the Armenians.

The pilot has set a dangerous precedent which will come back to haunt Monarch. How can passenger selection be left up to the other pax?

When ignorance is bliss it is folly not to have a level headed person on board.

[jabird]

Paper tiger,

I think you are confusing the two incidents (Monarch/Skywest). There was no mention of praying at Malaga, aside from the relatively obvious fact that Monarch is not an Islamic state carrier

Sorry if my point wasn't that clear, but I was trying to say that reciting verses from the Koran, which would usually have been done in Arabic, would not be unusual. I was thinking about the Skywest incident too, but accept that this wasn't the case on the ZB flight - just making a general observation.

Don't think I'd stand up and recite the 23rd Psalm on Saudia in any case

No, nor would I, but as mentioned above, if you want to visit KSA (why else would anyone fly Saudia?), then there has to be a large amount of acceptance of their way of doing things. My dad learned the hard way - at least he got through a year there, but attempts to renew his contract after 1 year proved totally fruitless after he tried educating local generals about the spread of AIDS, which of course didn't exist in their eyes, because no-one would get up to any infidelities outside marraige.


At times, we have been far too tolerant of the intolerant, but we have live up to our own standards, and not make excuses about how other countries behave.

[DH121]

I understand that there is more to this incident than has so far been reported. I think there is a reluctance to say too much for fear of prejudicing an anticipated court case.

[MercenaryAli]

Scenario:-

I am getting on to an express train - MAN - LON. I noticed an asian looking gentleman with beard, accompanied by what appeared to be a female however the ONLY part of her that could be seen were two eyes peeping out of a tiny slit in her otherwise totally black mantle from head to toe and to the end of her hands. The male was carrying a HUGE backpack and believe it or not I noticed some electrical wires popping out of one of the compartments.

Now, call me PARANOID if you like BUT I was not comfortable to travel in that train with those persons! It may be that they are perfectly nice peace loving folk, who just happen to be different from me OR maybe they are a THREAT to me and many others! BUT how do I know.

This will not get any better with the present situation and if I were on an aircraft how much more serious would I consider the possible threat to life? :ugh:

[MercenaryAli]

I would find my self in deep deep shxt if I tried to board a Saudia aircraft dressed in shorts and flip flops reciting the 23rd Psalm clutching the building plans for a nice big Christian Church in one hand and a large leather bound Bible (King James Version) in the other!

I think you get my point !

[El Grifo]

From my experince on entering muslim countries, you would have had the bible and the cross confiscated at point of arrival, along with any other religous artefacts you might be carrying.

Reality sometimes takes on some unpleasant characteristics.

[CAT1]

If anyone should have been offloaded from this flight it's the bigoted racists who complained about the two passengers. The captain giving in to mob rule does not bode well for the airline industry. And since they were Asian, I doubt very much they were talking Arabic. Probably Urdu.And mercenaryali, I never saw any reports that they were reciting the Koran, carrying any, or waving around plans for a mosque. I hope I never have you on my aircraft.

[flybywire]

Scenario:-
I am getting on to an express train - MAN - LON. I noticed an asian looking gentleman with beard, accompanied by what appeared to be a female however the ONLY part of her that could be seen were two eyes peeping out of a tiny slit in her otherwise totally black mantle from head to toe and to the end of her hands. The male was carrying a HUGE backpack and believe it or not I noticed some electrical wires popping out of one of the compartments.
Now, call me PARANOID if you like BUT I was not comfortable to travel in that train with those persons!

Did you get off the train then? Or did you ask them to get off?
I remember once, when I was still working for an airline known for the pink uniform, I started feeling uneasy on the 4am Victoria-threebridges train. There were some British drunk men who had just been partying and didn't look too reassuring I have to say. So what did I do? Did I report them, ask them to get off? No, they had done nothing to me at that point, so I just
walked off the train and caught the GX that was leaving a bit later. I perceived a threat that might or might have not been real, and in doubt I myself got off. Didn't force anybody else to go.

I also remember once flying AF from Amman to Paris, right in the middle of the 2nd Intifada, I was sitting on a window seat and was probably the only European passenger(although I can disguise myself very well). All the others were Arabian looking people, most of them politicians travelling to Paris for a diplomatic trip. All of them except the man that was sat next to me. He was the only Jew on board. Every half an hour or so he would start praying, swinging backwards and forwards, saying something that was impossible for me to understand.

I then started chatting to this man and he told me was flying to see his daughter in Paris but he was extrmely scared of flying, and praying was the only thing that would make him feel better.
Imagine though if all the Arabs on board had decided to make a big deal out of it!!!

Tolerance, people.......

FBW

PS: even if some people might think otherwise, Islamic integralists have usually their own respect for their women and kids, they tend to protect them and would not blow themselves up while with their families. Of course mad people exist everywhere but they usually keep them out of the business and do this alone or in groups of men.
Is it possible that it was his iPod cable sticking out of his bag? ;) :E

[MercenaryAli]

If anyone should have been offloaded from this flight it's the bigoted racists who complained about the two passengers.

Were the 9/11 murderers not just a little bigotted ?

Islamic integralists have usually their own respect for their women and kids, they tend to protect them and would not blow themselves up while with their families[/COLOR]

But no respect AT ALL for other peoples women and kids evidently!

[doubledolphins]

The two pax claimed they were on a day trip to plan for a holiday. What an odd thing to do?

[MercenaryAli]

Perhaps on a recce?

[hpcock]

Hey Merc Ali

Terrorism comes in all shapes,sizes,colours & creeds. I'm affraid to say that your previous posts are completely enriched with hatred, racism & a complete hatfull of ignorance.

What if it had been a couple of white guys - I don't think the media coverage would have been so frenzied.

You need to get out of the USA once in a while and learn about the real world, not the **** that you guys get spoon fed, by your joke of a country.

Yours disgustidly

HPC

PS. I'm an Asian airline pilot, & I would love to have you on my a/c anytime - see the world of **** i'd put you in.

[Skytrucker87]

Seems predictable that holiday charters would contain a fair mixture of bermuda-shorted, shaven headed tattooed overweight sun readers. Why was anyone surprised at their reaction?

(covers ears and scarpers.......):}

[hpcock]

Hey SkyTrucker

I think you are the bravest man or woman on this thread. I think you've probably summed up what most people in the UK think, but are too afraid say without reprocussion from the shell suit & soverign ring chav community.

As an Asian having lived in the UK since birth, I have been the subject of racist taunts since I was a child, & its the kind of people that you describe, who are usually the most narrow minded, that I have found to be the most problematic in these situtions.

On has to look at the make up of social sects & decipher that your average world traveller, who is educated in other peoples culture & lifestyles would not be regularly travelling to Malaga with Monarch. These are people who travel once maybe twice a year, & are generally percieved to be at the lower end of the interlectual spectrum.

Sorry for ranting on so much

Many thanks

HPC

[PanPanYourself]

Uh, hpcock, which "interlectual spectrum" might you be in? I was just wondering 'cause you can't even spell intellectual correctly despite being supposedly born and raised in Britain.
:ok:

[Skytrucker87]

Funny how some people just have to resort to personal attacks! Vaugely reminiscent of the attitude of the people who carry out the DIY passenger profiling. Can't spell, therefore opinions of little value.

Perhaps I should go through all of your postings and check for spelling mistakes.

Should we not just stay on the subject of the thread?

[PanPanYourself]

Hey, skytrucksuck, perhaps you should chill out. I was just pointing out the irony in the fact that he made a spelling mistake while judging peoples intelligence. It was not a personal attack. I'm sure you'll find plenty of spelling mistakes in my posts... perhaps evin this one!

Also, if you look back through this thread you'll see that I was probably the one who expressed the most disgust about this event. So I don't endorse DIY PP ing.

[Skytrucker87]

:eek: :}

Way to go (Toilet)Pan :E

[flash8]

Uh, hpcock, which "interlectual spectrum" might you be in? I was just wondering 'cause you can't even spell intellectual correctly despite being supposedly born and raised in Britain.
:ok:
Why "supposedly" ? Sorry it sounds racist to me mate.

Those two chaps, two young asian lads, were basically victims of the hysteria whipped up by the press and devoured by the chavs. I genuinely feel sorry for them, and the many thousands of other decent muslims in the UK, who due to the current situation many are even scared to walk the streets.

I'm British, but dark, could pass as Italian, Greek and even vaguely Asian. Never had any racism (ever) but then why would I?

That was until yesterday in the street (in the UK) when, a young guy walking passed me said aloud "Scum like you should go home". At first, I wondered who the heck he was talking about. Turned out the only person within 50m was me. Hmmm.

Seriously, thank god I don't live in the UK, because I genuinely feel that unease that is rising, and who knows where its going to end.

[Globaliser]

Now, call me PARANOID if you like BUT I was not comfortable to travel in that train with those persons!You're paranoid.

Just because you're comfortable shouldn't mean that other people are banned from public transport just because of the way they look, which is ultimately what you're suggesting.

[Skytrucker87]

Flash, it is unsafe to assume that the two were not terrorists, but it is certainly just as unsafe to assume that they are just because of their apparent race.

Vigilance is the keyword here. Report any concerns to the proper authorities and live with their decisions. Sometimes they will get it tragically wrong but most often they will get it right.

[FFFlyer]

hpcock, I think you made enough racist stereotypical references in your comments. Let me know which airline you fly with and I'll avoid it.

People are frightened at the moment and who can blame them. If I felt unsafe I would not get on the plane, call me what you like, and I would get another flight for myself and family at my own expense.

I can't comment on what happened on the Monarch flight, I wasn't there. Interesting to note it was full of shaven headed potbellied neo Nazis though.

It might help if there was outright and vocal condemnation of terrorism from the Muslim community rather than opinion polls which say 30% of the community support it.

[lexxity]

Amanda Dunleavy from Bolton, who was on the flight, said the pair aroused suspicion because of the way they acted when they were queuing.

She said: "They queued up for a good 40 or 50 minutes and then wandered off. They kept coming back, standing very, very close to people, intimidating them.

"The minute they got on [the plane] they started going under the seats and messing.

"When people began to take notice - and one young girl was really upset, crying - they just sat there laughing."

BBC. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5278210.stm)

If and, I stress IF, the above is true then you can sort of understand why people were getting a bit nervous. At the moment people are suspicious of "asian" looking men and drawing attention to yourself is just a bit daft. But it remains to be seen whether there really is any truth in the above statement.

[PanPanYourself]

flash8, this being an anonymous forum, everything said on this forum is supposedly true or may possibly be false. Thats why I said "supposedly" he was raised in Britain. I really don't know how me saying supposedly gives you the right to call me a racist. FACT: I am half Turkish half Belgian... Why would I be racist against Asians??

[FFFlyer]

"It was then, he said, that his wife Susanne began talking to another passenger who said she had sat next to the two men.

"She said she had heard them saying it was the last 30 minutes of their lives," said Mr Wearden. " - BBC

Hilarious! Pity the pax had no sense of humour!

[Clarence Oveur]

I suppose it all comes down to perception and mindset. If you already have it in your head, that people of a certain look possibly are terrorists, then any behaviour can look suspicious. Even perfectly normal behaviour.

I would even suggest that those people, who demanded the two men leave the aircraft, are emotionally unstable, and, in the interest of safety, should not be flying anywhere.

[Krystal n chips]

The pair were interviewed, albeit briefly by the BBC on the lunchtime Look Northwest programme. They declined to make any comment as such. However, the item also included a shot of the Daily Mail's --ahem --"definitive":yuk: headline which also appeared to contain a shot of one of the couple's who appeared on TV when the story broke.

The headline ? "We all agreed they looked dodgy" -----so that would be a show of hands, a voting slip or just plain good old fashioned bigoted verbal assessment and summary would it ? ----just to ascertain how the concensus was obtained you understand :rolleyes:

[FFFlyer]

"They declined to make any comment as such."

Perhaps because they had already sold their exclusive story to the Daily
Mirror?

They said: "We might be Asian but we're just two ordinary lads who wanted a bit of fun."

"As Muslims we are not supposed to drink alcohol, but we did have a few."

Sound familiar????

Agree Clarence, pity everyone isn't as brave as you, and has your searching perception and mindset.

Actually apart from being emotionally unstable it wouldn't bother me if I never got on a plane again. Sadly having other commitments I have to suffer it. I certainly would never fly from choice.

[El Grifo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5278092.stm


So That'll be allright then !!!!
:mad:

[Clarence Oveur]

FFFlyer,

There is no need to be sarcastic. If people can work themselves into such a frenzy that they start crying and demand other people leave a flight, then they can hardly be described as emotionally stable.

Having had a look at your posting history, I see why you are defending the behaviour of those people. May I say that not having you on an aircraft anytime soon, might not be such a loss.

One less ignitor of paranoia, perhaps?

[doubledolphins]

Have just seen the two pax interviewed by "The Wonderful Emily" on News Night. She failed to ask why they had just been on a day trip. It is this fact that seems to have bothered the crew more than any thing else.

[kala87]

How did the other pax know the 2 men of Asian appearance were Muslims? Were they wearing skull caps with their suits? Many UK Asians aren't Muslim at all. If their families originated from India, chances are they are Hindus or Sikhs. If the family is from Goa or south India there's a chance they're Christian. Don't forget that India has suffered badly from Islamic terrorism for the past 20 years or so. Remember the terrible bombing of Bombay commuter trains a few months ago. Assuming all "Asians" are potential terrorists is a grave injustice, for many reasons already commented on in this thread, as well as this one.

[joolsgene]

Well, shame on the captain. Use your head next time. Take the names of the ones who had a complaint to make. Then get them escorted of the flight. Its simple. If anyone knows this particular captain tell him from me that he’s is a knob.
This has given me a good idea for a sketch; picture the scene of a group of fifty persons waiting in the departure for their holiday flight. The departure lounge and aircraft cabin is hidden with cameras and microphones. Some people are surprised that there are not many people going on the flight. They are all called to board. As the last persons settle into their seats, about 170 Asians join them on the flight speaking in different languages. Now the question is how many of the fifty would complain whisper or leave the flight. The surprise on the faces would be priceless.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :D :D :D :D :D

[El Grifo]

I cannot believe how many people on this thread are unable or unwilling to accept reality. There is a war of cultures taking place on the planet right now and a big push is underway.

Innocent people are being sacrificed all over the world by higher powers, both organised governments and islamic militants, in dubious wars and unspeakable terrorist atrocities.

Ordinary Joe public is ****ting himself. He has seen footage of Atocha and has smelt the burning of the London bombs. The news footage of Baghdad and Lebanon seem a world away, but European City Centers do not.
Base instincts are at work. Dark skinned "foreign" looking people, appear to be almost 100% responsible for planting the bombs and people are aware of that.

I have seen people moving seats on the tube, I have seen people moving seats on buses and I have seen people getting off early from both of the same. Fear is gripping society.

On an aircraft it is different. Once you strap in, you are at the mercy of circumstance until you arrive at your destination.
Mistrust is stalking the land with enormous strides. There are bound to be victims.

Better safe than sorry.

Some serious re-adjustment of values is required before the situation will get any better.

However, I fear it will only get worse

:mad:

[Yarpy]

How about the following scenario?

Let's suppose that, instead of being arrested, the liquid bomber terrorist suspects had made it on to their target airliners. The same thing happens as on the Monarch flight - some passengers become concerned at their appearance and behaviour and decide to leave the aircraft. The Captain is alerted and decides to investigate . . . Reviewing ALL the circumstances he considers the wrath of the politically correct establishment. As the dodgy looking passengers have 'passed' security he can see no objective reason for their removal. He dares not make a subjective decision for fear of being prosecuted for racism and being chucked out the industry and losing his home because he cannot afford the mortgage.

So, the aircraft takes off. In flight the terrorists successfully launch their deadly attack.

As I recall, Richard Reid was treated with suspicion but allowed to fly based on objective evidence.

I saw the two young men interviewed last night. They seemed to understand the unforunate nature of the situation and bore no grudge.

My point is this. We must not introduce new protocols and strictures to ensure politically corrrect outcomes in all situations. We pay the Captain to make subjective judgements in the interests of safety. When there is insuffcient information we must respect a decision that errs on the safe side.

[flybywire]

Wasn't the Monarch flight one of their scheduled flights anyway? (usually ZB stands for scheduled and MON for charter). If my supposition is true then I have even more reasons not to see anything weird at all in taking a day trip.

Gosh if I or any of my skippers had to chuck out of the plane all the people who are on daily trips BA wouldn't have any more customers!!

Jeeeeezzzz......

[flybywire]

We pay the Captain to make subjective judgements in the interests of safety. When there is insuffcient information we must respect a decision that errs on the safe side.

I wish the captain spoke and told all of us the reasons why he did it, and what exactly made him suspect that there was somethign wrong with those two men and not with the people who accused them in the first place.

But I am sure he won't.

[lexxity]

Joolsgene how can you call someone you don't know such names? Were you there? Did you see the whole thing unfold?

The captain is in charge of the aircraft and he has the safety of his crew and passengers to think of. If he chose to put these two off then there must have been good reason to do so. Pax are not removed on a whim. I think you should remove your post as it is offensive and a personal attack.

[Yarpy]

I wish the captain spoke and told all of us the reasons why he did it

Why? A Captain makes many tricky decisions on safety in the course of the job. Why not judge him by results? You got home safely so what is the problem?

Furthermore . . . If they Captain publicly outlines what is deemed suspicious behaviour then that could benefit genuine terrorists. I.e. they will know which behaviours not to exhibit in order to avoid detection!

[FFFlyer]

Clarence, glad you found something useful to do, like look up posting history. I think it was a 12 year old girl who was emotionally unstable and unreasonably started crying. As to the rest, you evidently know best about everything.

Now let me get this right, two passengers under the influence of alcohol act strangely (by ther own admission), deliberately intimidate some of the passengers, start looking under seats when they get on the plane. The passengers are wrong to be concerned because they are Asian, and mustn't complain. I'll remember that next time I fly.

Would we be having this debate if they had been of caucasian appearance or if the last round of bombers had suceeded in blowing up a couple of planes? I think not.

[flash8]

Would we be having this debate if they had been of caucasian appearance(?)

That really says it all. If they were caucasian we would NOT be having this debate. Because they would have not been chucked off the a/c, instead the chavs would be having a sing-song or a laugh with them, if not in person then in spirit. This case stinks of racism, of that their can be little doubt if you simply apply the above logic.

[flash8]

I cannot believe how many people on this thread are unable or unwilling to accept reality. There is a war of cultures taking place on the planet right now and a big push is underway.
Innocent people are being sacrificed all over the world by higher powers, both organised governments and islamic militants, in dubious wars and unspeakable terrorist atrocities.
Ordinary Joe public is ****ting himself. He has seen footage of Atocha and has smelt the burning of the London bombs. The news footage of Baghdad and Lebanon seem a world away, but European City Centers do not.
Base instincts are at work. Dark skinned "foreign" looking people, appear to be almost 100% responsible for planting the bombs and people are aware of that.
I have seen people moving seats on the tube, I have seen people moving seats on buses and I have seen people getting off early from both of the same. Fear is gripping society.
On an aircraft it is different. Once you strap in, you are at the mercy of circumstance until you arrive at your destination.
Mistrust is stalking the land with enormous strides. There are bound to be victims.
Better safe than sorry.
Some serious re-adjustment of values is required before the situation will get any better.
However, I fear it will only get worse
:mad:


El Grifo, eloquent, I could not have put it better myself. These are dark times. And we all seem to be losing perspective amongst this hysteria. For that is what it is.

[FFFlyer]

Actually flash8 it does say it all, but about the predjuices of many of the posters. I know several people who holiday in Spain, have houses there and they are not 'chavs' (which in itself is a racist term). University lecturers do not sound like 'chavs'.

Like myself they would not put up with this kind of behaviour from anybody regardless of their colour or appearance. Or is that how your airline operates?

It sounds like a good deal to me - go for a cheap day return flight, have a laugh baiting/frightening a few travellers, get a free hotel for the night, transport, food, sell your story to the newspapers, and possibly sue the airline for racism and get some compo.

[PaperTiger]

If they were booted because they were sh*tfaced, then why the **** didn't someone say so in the first place ? :mad:
Guess the gate staff must have "missed" the drunkenness and intimidation then :*

[flybhx]

Doesn't make such a good story for the press if it was just drunks.

[flybywire]

Why? A Captain makes many tricky decisions on safety in the course of the job. Why not judge him by results? You got home safely so what is the problem?
Furthermore . . . If they Captain publicly outlines what is deemed suspicious behaviour then that could benefit genuine terrorists. I.e. they will know which behaviours not to exhibit in order to avoid detection!

a) I was not on the flight

b) I am crew and I am trained to "recognise" suspect behaviour. The training we go through in my airline is one of the best and most exhaustive in the whole world. Just by what I have read on papers/seen on tv the crew had no right to offload the passengers "just because..."

Prove to me that it was legitimate, that there was a real risk and I will talk no more.

We all know the story of the crying wolf, don't we?

FBW

PS: those two men safely travelled back to Manchester the following day, I am sure they are grateful to that captain who took them back in one piece, and who made them feel safe from aviation hazards and passengers-in-flipflop madness.

[Yarpy]

Prove to me that it was legitimate, that there was a real risk and I will talk no more

That's a difficult one flybywire. The Captains job is to make safe, commercially viable decisions. The safe aspect has to err on the side of caution. That can mean being highly unpopular with the First Officer, the cabin crew, passengers, the airline, the wife, the engineers, ATC, society in general and anyone else you care to name.

I once had to offload a passenger for reasons of pure suspicion. It was reported to me that the man looked like an individual who had caused a disruptive incident a few weeks previously. This was explained to him and he was escorted off the aircraft.

Fortunately we had time to conduct a background check on the individual. It was a case of mistaken identity on the part of some ground staff. We let him back on and he took the situation with well a sense of humour.

This wasn't a nice decision I had to make. However, taking into account all the information available at the time it was the responsible thing to do.

And that is my point. The Captain's job is to be responsible - not popular or politically correct.

[El Grifo]

Like I said, the wrong time to realise a bad call has been made, is when you are strapped in and airborne !!!

:mad:

[MercenaryAli]

PS. I'm an Asian airline pilot, & I would love to have you on my a/c anytime - see the world of **** i'd put you in.

Enough said HPCock - that is the kind of thanks the British receive for allowing your family to settle in their country.

[Piltdown Man]

It's not a democracy in my plane. I decide who does and who doesn't fly, not shell suited Sun readers. If they don't want to fly with people who have been through the same security checks as they have, they will be ones getting off.

[Yarpy]

It's not a democracy in my plane

Quote from my Captains line training many moons ago:

"If it needs to be a dictatorship, it will be"

At the begining and end of the day the Captains authority has to be respected. We cannot allow other agencies and political influences to rule the cockpit.

[Monarch Man]

Perhaps a little more info here (http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article1221658.ece)

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

Perhaps a little more info here (http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article1221658.ece)

I couldn't read the full article do you have to be a paid subscriber to read it?

[jabird]

"If my supposition is true then I have even more reasons not to see anything weird at all in taking a day trip."

Isn't is fairly common for people to fly to AGP with empty suitcases, stock up on cheap ciggies, and return home later that day? Plenty of locos with enough frequency to make that possible, including ZB, who claim over 50% market share on the MAN-AGP route.

Just wondering how the comment about the last 30 minutes was picked up if they were supposed to be speaking in Arabic (or another language which wasn't English, and presumably wasn't spoken by many others on the flight).

From the reports which have filtered through, it sounds like they might have been messing around a fair bit, perhaps speaking bits in English, bits in the other language. They certainly seem to have provoked a response, but perhaps we've all jumped to conclusions very quickly without really having the full facts. However, if it is true that they were drinking, will the Muslim leaders who have so far condemned the actions of the airline have a few words to say about the evils of their flock consuming liquour?

[crib08]

Monarch may not have done the right thing by everyone's eye's but they did do it right by mine. Offload 2 pax or offload the other 226, you do the math. Most of the people on this page are flight deck so you all know the time, delay and all the jazz. Monarch had another case prior to this that many people dont know about.

06/06/06 MBA LGW, 6 muslim men were off loaded by the crew after pax informed us of their behaviour. All 6 checked in together, then when they got to the gate sat away from each other and all started convo's on there phns in arabic and when they got on the a/c the were dotted about the cabin, not one sitting together and not one complaint about that fact.

When they were offloaded, not a word from them. If you were getting offloaded I am quite sure you would have something to say. And it turned out that one passport was a fake one ticket was a fake and three of them had libyian passports.

I hope we all can agree that there were too many negatives to letting them fly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This may have been in the minds of all the crew when off loading the 2 men in agp. Monarch are a very security concious airline, we have dft checks coming out gleeming with praise for us and we wont let our ground staff and passport control etc try and get us in trouble. Everyone on board our aircraft know what they are doing and some times you have to go with your gut instinct.