Passengers getting jittery

[itsabeautifulday]

Have heard that two arabian appearance passengers were put off a Monarch flight returning from Malaga early Wednesday morning after passengers protested and refused to fly with them saying they might be terrorists and that two GB Airways flights to Tenerife experienced similar problem on Wednesday with passengers refusing to fly with 'suspicious' co-travellers. Anyone know anything about this?

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

No, but I got into serious trouble in Egypt whilst boarding an internal Egyptair flight earlier this year for standing at the foot of the stairs and raising my face to the sun. I was waiting for the meatballs ahead of me to sort themselves out and embark. Whilst indulging in this little heliotropism I was singing a little Mozart to myself.
Egyptian security apparently thought that I was saying a final prayer to whatever divinity they supposed I worshipped, before, presumably, blowing us all to kingdom come.
After the ensuing security brouhaha, my wife and I were allowed to board and fly away, which was nice. I complimented security on their astute assumption of the fact that I might be a terrorist and assured them that I would not be making racist claims to the press. My khaki trousers were only somewhat baggy.:)

[Out Of Trim]

Hmmm

It would appear, that If security don't start profiling the passengers; then the passengers will very likely start profiling their fellow passengers for their own peace of mind!

I predict more of this kind of thing to start happening until, real profiling is actually brought in officially.

ho hum..

[GreatCircle]

Hmmm

It would appear, that If security don't start profiling the passengers; then the passengers will very likely start profiling their fellow passengers for their own peace of mind!

I predict more of this kind of thing to start happening until, real profiling is actually brought in officially.

ho hum..

Wife flew back to the land of Bear and Snow yesterday as SLF in Row 2, K.

Guy in Row 2, C - other side of the middle bank, was of Pakistani and or North African appearance. Probably a Canadian citizen, born in the Great White North.

Wife who is as tolerant as they come, made eye contact with him, he in turn her, and her level headed disposition turned to the dark side...

Out of Trim is dead right - even the most level headed of pax, and even crew, will start profiling...

Time to get the security overhaul underway...

[P Muzzy]

It's getting to sad state of affairs if pax are eyeballing each other to see if they fit their profile of a potential terrorist.

What we all need is to be able to trust the security checks prior to boarding.

I can remember flying out of JFK in the early 80's in my teens and being freaked out that I wasn't searched prior to boarding a plane - how things have changed now.

Profiling by our security in London is nothing but common sense and eases the congestion to get air side. I can't help but wonder when common sense will rise above what is now almost hysteria?:rolleyes:

[TightSlot]

Thread moved here from R&N by Danny - please note the number of deleted posts further up.

The thread will stay open as long as the views expressed remain adult, considered, legal and acceptable (think that covers everything). If it slides into racist comment, or a slanging match... it goes.

:=

[Middle Seat]

Have heard that two arabian appearance passengers were put off a Monarch flight returning from Malaga early Wednesday morning after passengers protested and refused to fly with them saying they might be terrorists and that two GB Airways flights to Tenerife experienced similar problem on Wednesday with passengers refusing to fly with 'suspicious' co-travellers.

Hmm...this leaves me wondering...how many passengers have to protest before the other passengers [of concern] are taken off the airplane? Is it two, a few, or a handful?

Conversely, at what point would the airline remove a "concerned" passenger making a fuss about the gentlemen who they feel looks like a terrorist?

Has the latter occured? Anyone who is groundstaff or crew have experience?

[spork]

Perhaps they should have a show of hands as each passenger boards the plane? :rolleyes:

[derekl]

Perhaps we could have Islamic and Non-Islamic flights? Flying apartheid anyone?

[10secondsurvey]

You know, I can recall, that at certain times in the past when things were at their worst with the IRA, people in London would sometimes react a bit strange the minute someone with an Irish accent spoke (no matter how innocent).

I guess the same is happening here, with each person having an image (rightly or wrongly) in their mind of what a plane bomber looks like. If profiling has been shown to work, with the likes of El Al,then I see no reason not to adopt it. The threat won't always be the same, and profiling is a technique which seems very flexible.

[bealine]

The two GB Airways passengers for Tenerife were not offloaded due to the other passengers refusing to fly with them.

The "Gentleman" and his son in question were offloaded, arrested by the police and banned for life from British Airways or its subsidiary companies for using threatening and abusive behaviour to a BA staff member. The rumour that passengers refused to fly with them is unfounded, but probably caused by the rush of people that volunteered to act as witnesses!

[spork]

Thanks bealine for bringing us "real" information on this!

[eidah]

I had a similar experience tonight when boarding in Spain. Two British ladies travelling with their young children began complaining about a Muslim (he even has a beard, they said!) pax, who had behaved suspiciously in the terminal and prayed (which - naturally - should be a crime when done at an airport... :rolleyes: ).

After some enqueries I found out the pax had all ready complained at the terminal, and the poor Muslim had been checked by security twice - and nothing suspicious had been found.

I tried to explain to the ladies that he was probably just a nervous flyer. After all, I've seen probably hundreds of Christians grasping their rosaries or Bibles during flights without offending anybody. Just because they're Muslim doesn't make them a terrorist.

The ladies had none of it, and threatened to offload themselves. I basically pointed out the door to them, but turned out it had been an idle threat, more designed to get rid of the poor Muslim.

With little option the ladies settled down and we managed to take off. Shortly after the seatbelt sign had gone off another lady, who sat behind our Muslim "terrorist", approaches me and told me she was terrified because the Muslim pax was being "weird".

When I was finally pushing my drinks trolley past this highly suspicious terrorist, I noticed he was in fact sleeping peacefully - and continued to do so the whole flight.

Words paranoid and racist spring to my mind... I do understand people are concerned at a time like this, but surely they should have at least SOME faith in the apt security - even if it's Spanish (one of the major concerns for the ladies seemed to be, that things were not done the same way as in good old England. Wanted to tell her that the British Empire has collapsed quite a while ago, but self preservation stopped me. Surely the world would be a better place without people like her?)

I guess it was a good thing I DIDN'T tell her our F/O was a Muslim... ;)

[PaperTiger]

Hmm...this leaves me wondering...how many passengers have to protest before the other passengers [of concern] are taken off the airplane? Is it two, a few, or a handful?Just the one, apparently.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/08/18/doctor-winnipeg.html

[Jordan D]

We seem to have two stories here - GB Airways & Monarch ... and this has appeared on BBC News today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5267884.stm

As an British Asian, I'm somewhat appalled if the press reports of a passenger mutiny are true.

Jordan

[daz211]

hello jordan
please can you tell me why taking 2 people of the a/c
upset you so much

if you and you family were on a aircraft and you see something
that you didnt like or worried you would you not want it sorted
before you departed ?

everyone has to get over this RACE thing
white black green or purple
this is not a dig at any race just a moving threat
that could come from any nation at any time
and this time its muslims not all just a few out of millions
but thats just the way it is if it was me as a white british
person in another nation i would understand and be willing
to help with any questions the police or security would have
to ask me:rolleyes:

[hasell]

This is a difficult one. No security system is perfect. Regarding the reactions of pax. Its a natural reaction to be suspicious and have some fear of the percieved/real threat -especially given SOME of the reporting in our papers.
However I shall give you two incidents and let you make up your own minds...

1995, my first assigment from the UK to USA. My two collegues and I. Got to Atlanta and at immigration, I got seperated my two collegues. I think I recall at least two interviews with officials in some side office -followed by a third informal chat with another. Meanwhile the other two are with luggage and waiting and have been wondering where I'd got too. When I finally arrived out and we all met up. I just laughed it off. My point is that profiling in one way shape or form has been around for ages, its an inconvienience but in some way shape or form, necessary at this time. Just bear with it... yes i'm not white or a muslim.

2005, my neighbour -flight deck crew at LHR witnessed an incident. Having completed a flight, he and his crew shared a crew bus with a PIA crew. Whilst waiting to go through the usual security checks. He noticed the behaviour of the staff to the PIA crew. The officials gave the crew of a PIA flight a tough time of it. My friend came away with the perception that members of this crew where being treated harshly. My friend made a good point. So this is a flight crew flying for their national carrier -probably proud to do so. They have landed, parked up the a/c and probably looking forward towards getting out of the airport and to their hotel. Why would the security officials give them a tough time?

Just my 2p worth.

[PhoenixDaCat]

Methinks you are being a little naive there Daz.

[daz211]

why do you think that ?

It might just be my age or upbringing
but i hate it when people have to bring race into it
this country has become a nanny state
trying not to upset people from other walk of life
eg
no more bar bar black sheep
we get asked not to fly the english flag to suport our country
we cant tell jokes about small people irish people gay people
black people and the list goes on

my point is if i were asian i would expect to be looked at
in airports and be subjected to more security checks
thats the way of life im not saying all asians are terrorists
but in the current situation i would expect it

the same as if i was wearing a hoodie i would expect
people to think i was up to no good

the point is if a granny blew up a aircraft all passengers and security would
be keeping an eye on all old grannys
so stop being a victim if you have nothing to hide whats the problem

[markflyer6580]

Have heard that two arabian appearance passengers were put off a Monarch flight returning from Malaga early Wednesday morning after passengers protested and refused to fly with them saying they might be terrorists

Without trying to be racist,how are any flights from birmingham going to get airborne,due to the high percentage of arabic looking,/muslims etc etc in that place if this sort of mutiny lark catches on?

[Clarence Oveur]

so stop being a victim if you have nothing to hide whats the problem
How do you stop being a victim when it is other peoples fears and paranoia, that makes you one?

[corsair]

Back in the IRA days I was regularly profiled, young male, Irish not wearing a suit and then 'randomly' selected for a search. A friend of mine was searched EVERY time. He just looked the part. I never quite understood why they searched me as I was leaving the UK rather than entering. But it didn't bother me and understood the reasons. I think profiling happens whether it is officially sanctioned or not.
Unfortunately if you are in any way Asian or Arabic looking you are bound to be checked. I daresay there are many Spanish or Italian fitting the profile too. I'm afraid it's part of modern travel.

But in this case I think the passengers were being racist and unreasonable. If I was the Captain I would cheerfully shown the panicky passengers the door and not taken off the two asian guys. They passed the security check, no doubt their toothpaste and lipstick were removed from them and they were safe to board. Frankly I would feel the panicking passengers were more of a threat than the men involved.

[Flying Torquewrench]

EIDAH,

Thank you for your post. That is the way i would like to see this monarch situation handled as well.

It's is ridiculous that we offload pax because other pax complain about their Asian/Middle Eastern looks. If the people who complain don't won't to travel then offload the complainers and not the innocent asian/middle eastern looking people. If we continue this practice than we will end up with a witch hunt. The statement has to be made that we don't accept pax to judge if other people are safe to travel.

DAZ211, I can understand the point you try to bring across but unfortunately i don't agree with you. Because several muslim guys attempt a terrorist attack doesn't mean that we have to suspect everybody. And no, i don't like the nanny state and all the PC bullsh*t either. It is up to the airport security/immigration and whatsoever to decide if a pax is safe to fly and it's NOT up to other pax to make that decision. If you don't like who's on your aircraft than by al means offload yourself but don't expect the airline to offload other pax because you are not happy to fly with them. It's not YOUR decision.

And i mean this in general and not only based on race or religion.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

Aren't there any legal implications to offloading someone just because someone else thinks they look a bit dodgy.

They'd presumably been through security.

Does the captain have the right to offload them because other passengers think they look dodgy?

Did the Captain think that they were indeed a 'bit dodgy' looking and required further investigation or were they offloaded due to the increasing number of passengers refusing to fly?

[jmc757]

Well it looks as if the tabloid press will go to town with this one. Its already linked on the front page of the Daily Mail's Website (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=401419&in_page_id=1770&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=NEWS&ct=5).

Is this what we've come to? Offloading passengers who have gone through the same security as everyone else just because fellow travellers don't like the look of them?

[PaperTiger]

Is this what we've come to? Offloading passengers who have gone through the same security as everyone else just because fellow travellers don't like the look of them?Yup. Something about sowing the wind...
It will stop when the Captains decide to stop it. Hopefully with the full backing of their employers, which does not seem to have been the case so far. As commander, I decide who gets to fly and who doesn't (assuming all have passed security checks); anybody who disagrees is free to get off and make their own way home.

[spork]

eidah
The ladies had none of it, and threatened to offload themselves. I basically pointed out the door to them…
Sanity at last!!!

I guess it was a good thing I DIDN'T tell her our F/O was a Muslim...
PMSL!!! You should’ve got him to come back and “reassure” them!


daz211
Something that you didnt like or worried you
Oh come on! It has to be something concrete, not just a fear of somebody different.

would you not want it sorted before you departed ?
It was. The protestors were shown where the door was.

everyone has to get over this RACE thing
Why did you post what you did then?

Markflyer6580, post #20, Hear, hear!!!

I would quite happily volunteer to sit next to the “suspicious” passenger with the beard, male or female. However, I wish to be moved if I’m put next to the loonies who think they have the right to veto anyone else on board.

I totally agree with Flying Torquewrench:
offload the complainers and not the innocent asian/middle eastern looking people.

[Jordan D]

Daz - having been subject to a number of stop-and-searches by the British Police under the Terrorism Act, I have no problem with adequate and appropriate security precautions being taken.

What I do have issue with - as it appears from the press reports - is that these two passengers were noted for their apperance and skin colour. That is frankly unacceptable. If their behaviour was suspicious (as seems to be the story now coming out) then we have a new ball game.

Jordan

[eidah]

If we continue this practice than we will end up with a witch hunt. The statement has to be made that we don't accept pax to judge if other people are safe to travel.


I totally agree. I realise we, as crew, sometimes rely on pax informing us if something is abnormal and possibly dangerous (sure, usually when a pax reports a strange light following us in the middle of the night, it's our wing, but if - against all odds and the radar - it actually was another a/c, I'd most certainly want to know about it). What I will not tolerate is pax who have let their own prejudice affect their thinking threaten me with offloading themselves. If they don't like the company, they can walk.

When all people can offer to support their theory that the pax next to them is a terrorist is "he has a beard" or "he's wearing a bulky coat", it is very difficult to determine what type of a grip of reality they have. Only spoilt children would come up with a worse excuse why they don't want to travel with someone who has a different religion.

I simply cannot understand why any self-respecting capt would listen to such reasons; and why - in our lovely PC society - the men in question in the Monarch incident didn't report him for religious intolerance. I've heard the police in the UK take that more seriously than murder these days...

[harpy]

With little option the ladies settled down and we managed to take off. Shortly after the seatbelt sign had gone off another lady, who sat behind our Muslim "terrorist", approaches me and told me she was terrified because the Muslim pax was being "weird".
When I was finally pushing my drinks trolley past this highly suspicious terrorist, I noticed he was in fact sleeping peacefully - and continued to do so the whole flight.
Words paranoid and racist spring to my mind... I do understand people are concerned at a time like this, but surely they should have at least SOME faith in the apt security - even if it's Spanish (one of the major concerns for the ladies seemed to be, that things were not done the same way as in good old England. Wanted to tell her that the British Empire has collapsed quite a while ago, but self preservation stopped me. Surely the world would be a better place without people like her?)
I guess it was a good thing I DIDN'T tell her our F/O was a Muslim... ;)
Taking your story at face value, the lady was concerned that the other passenger might be a threat to security so she spoke to you. What else should she have done? You are the representative of authority in the cabin. If a passenger can't approach you with her concerns, who can she talk to? Perhaps she had seen the security checks at the departure airport and was unimpressed. It seems unlikely that the security in Spain could have been anywhere near as strict as in the UK over the last ten days so perhaps she was right to think it inadequate. Instead of investigating her fears discretely, you stereotyped her as a racist and formed the opinion that the world would be better off without her. You say that by the time you finally pushed your drinks trolley past "this highly suspicious terrorist", he was asleep. Shouldn't you have strolled through the cabin sooner even if you guessed he was not a threat? Why do you assume she would have been unhappy to hear that your F/O was a muslim? And what has the British Empire got to do with all this?

[Easy Ryder]

Eidah heres an article for you to read http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article1220674.ece

Your story made it into the Independant!

Harpy, the moment someone concludes they are scared of men with beards that talk differently, should, i believe automatically put into the ignorant and racist bracket.

A brown man dressed different with a beard = terrorist

A white man dressed and a unusual red costume with a beard = someone to smile at and send your kids over too and make requests.......

:ok:

[eidah]

Instead of investigating her fears discretely, you stereotyped her as a racist and formed the opinion that the world would be better off without her. You say that by the time you finally pushed your drinks trolley past "this highly suspicious terrorist", he was asleep. Shouldn't you have strolled through the cabin sooner even if you guessed he was not a threat? Why do you assume she would have been unhappy to hear that your F/O was a muslim? And what has the British Empire got to do with all this?

As I stated in my post, I did indeed investigate and spoke to people who had checked this pax. He had been subjected to extra security checks and nothing suspicious had been found. I tend to trust airport security even when they are not British, otherwise, should we not have representatives of the UK on every apt of the world, just in case the "bloody foreigners" don't do the job properly?

The lady in question certainly seemed to think that the Spanish security could never be as good as the British. I am under the impression that majority of PPRUNE members (and the British press, if you have read todays newspapers) find the current extra security at UK apts a laughing stock instead of necessary measures. As a non-Brit myself I found the lady's quetion "Is the CAPTAIN even British?" slightly patronising, since her consern seemed to be mostly that foreigners simply cannot do anything properly. Thus the reference to the days of the Empire.

And no, I was not rude to these people. I reassured them, and quite calmly explained to them why I, and the capt for that matter, believed they had no reason to worry. I only vented here, when the silly cows could no longer hear me... ;)

I have always taken pax complaints seriously, but can you honestly find accusations of a man having a beard and praying in any way significant?

[harpy]

Easy Ryder said:
Harpy, the moment someone concludes they are scared of men with beards that talk differently, should, i believe automatically put into the ignorant and racist bracket.

How do you know she was "afraid of men with beards that talk differently"? She told the cabin crew about a passenger who was "being weird".


eidah said:
The lady in question certainly seemed to think that the Spanish security could never be as good as the British. I am under the impression that majority of PPRUNE members (and the British press, if you have read todays newspapers) find the current extra security at UK apts a laughing stock instead of necessary measures. As a non-Brit myself I found the lady's quetion "Is the CAPTAIN even British?" slightly patronising, since her consern seemed to be mostly that foreigners simply cannot do anything properly. Thus the reference to the days of the Empire.

You only said in your earlier post that she told you he was "being weird" and you implied that you didn't bother to investigate until you went out with the drinks trolley. Based on what you wrote in the earlier post, I think your response was inadequate.
On the subject of the extra security at British airports: It's easy to criticise, particularly in relation to the treatment of flight crews. But the government is on a hiding to nothing; they'll get no thanks for introducing the extra measures but if the measures fail, they'll get the blame. The real test of the government will be how soon they can reduce check-in times to something approaching normality while providing a high level of security. To do that, they will have to introduce passenger profiling, including a racial element. Will you then accuse the British government of racism?

[Easy Ryder]

Yes because not every muslim terrorist is arab or asian.

A white convert got caught in Australia a few years ago.... he would be missed under your 'profiling'. I believe another is stuck in Camp XRay. I'm all for hiigher security though.

Profiling is fine when its others getting the short end of the stick. Turn it around and you would be screaming about it...

[Superpilot]

Been on numerous flights since the raids as my British Asian self, reading various flight mags, catching the odd eye or two. Vast majority of people have been decent and not suspecting. Even managed to get a flight deck visit after landing. So the truth is most ordinary (and decent) people would not behave in a racist like way when in the presence of Muslims on a flight, even those who like aviation! Therefore, it's likely said flight was at least half full of bucket and spader's from some bnp supporting town.

[harpy]

Yes because not every muslim terrorist is arab or asian.
A white convert got caught in Australia a few years ago.... he would be missed under your 'profiling'. I believe another is stuck in Camp XRay. I'm all for hiigher security though.
Profiling is fine when its others getting the short end of the stick. Turn it around and you would be screaming about it...
I didn't suggest profiling solely on race but that profiling should include a racial element. It should also include a religious element. I don't think of profiling as giving someone else the short end of the stick. Done sensitively, it should not involve humiliation for anyone.

[eidah]

I'm sorry Harpy, you may not have understood me previously.

When the FIRST lady told me a pax was being "weird" I naturally asked her how he was "weird". Her explanation was, that he was muslim, nervous, had a beard and had been praying at the terminal.

As far as profiling goes, beeing muslim and nervous can - under the current circumstances - be of some significance. Having a beard and praying must never be in a civilised society concidered a thread of any kind.

When the SECOND lady approached me after take off and said she was scared of sitting behind the man who had been weird in the terminal, I was all ready aware of the facts, there was nothing left to investigate.

My point is, that certain British people seem to have descented to the level of medieval peasants in their witch-hunt, ignoring evidence AND basic human rights in their intolerance of muslims, and I find this, frankly, disgusting.

[spork]

The Indie
"We were coming back to Britain with a load of people in flipflops and shorts but the two men were wearing jumpers and leather jackets," he said.
I know who I’d rather fly with…

harpy
profiling should include a racial element. It should also include a religious element.
I’d defy anyone to easily tell my race and religion. How long will security want to work this out? Will they be employing theologists?

[Superpilot]

Situation, you are seen to have been:

Brown skinned
Young
Muslim
Male
Reading about aeroplanes!
Looking deep into the flightdeck everytime the door opened
Telling your mate you thought Bush was a w****r


Someone, on the plane shouts "Terrorist". The entire plane goes into a frenzy. Anti-terrorist squad escorts you off the plane with a gun pointed at you. They frisk you, to discover:


A Bluetooth GPS
A mobile phone with a photo of a flightdeck as the wallpaper
A PocketPC device with instructions on how to get to 'Aviation House'


Police visit your home, and find:


Internet links to anti-Bush, anti-war websites.
Your computers internet history showing you've been to pilot forums, trying to gain knowledge about whatever it was you were probably going to do that day.
A copy of the Quran in your cupboard, alongside 'Pooley's Flight Guide', 'Flying the big jets' and 'Stupid White Men'
A Pilot License, and a logbook proving you've been "surveying" the sites.
An airband radio with all the frequencies tuned in.


...Under current anti-terror legislation, someone like you is allowed to be locked away without being charged for nearly 3 weeks, in the process recking your whole life, probably rendering you jobless, unemployable and a whole lot more.

That someone coule be me, and thousands of other people. Therefore :yuk: to your racial profiling.

[PAXboy]

We can but hope that the two men thus treated will have the courage and effort to take Monarch to court. Now, I am well aware of the small print about Rites of Carriage and all taht but this really is spectacularly bad. If these two managed to travel later that day without let or hindrance, then they are genuine.

[Jordan D]

To just add a thought to those who think profiling Asians will find terrorists, let me say two words:

Timothy McVeigh.

Jordan

[bradfordboy]

Timothy Mcveigh commited his crime over 10 years ago and most people accept that times have moved on since. Totally different to what we are faced with these days.

[DozyWannabe]

OK, how about Abdul Waheed?

He was born Don Stewart-Whyte, the son of two white, Christian Tory activists. These are young men who felt disenfranchised and saw Islam as a way of being listened to, or to provide certainty in a very uncertain world; not 'evil' terrorists who 'hate' our way of life.

[bradfordboy]

Bit of a clue in the name I suspect:ugh: .

[spork]

Maybe I’m wrong, but my interpretation of profiling is the narrowing down of suspects. We can see from recent events, ie: absolutely nothing found despite ludicrous 100% security processes, that we need to do something to make the very necessary security process efficient. Last week was not what was needed!

We all profile, consciously or not. If you’ve ever walked through a train and decided not to sit with the loud drunks or the muttering looney, then you’ve profiled. That’s not to say that when you eventually sit opposite the suited businessman, he won’t start doing something you don’t like.

From the above, it would appear that to satisfy other pax the bomber would only have to shave his beard off and dress for the beach to get through. Of course, that clearly isn’t the case, as he still would have to go through security. And no, there is NOT a clue in the name!

My original post about profiling was to say that maybe exclusion profiling is needed so that security can focus on those who remain. That is NOT to say that they are guilty, just that they failed the first or second hurdle, and should be screened further. I don’t mind at all which group I fall into, I just do not want to waste half my life in crowded airports.

[DozyWannabe]

Bit of a clue in the name I suspect:ugh: .

I genuinely don't follow. What's the point in profiling every Muslim if at least two of the supposed plotters don't fit the profile and are supposedly recent converts? I suspect that his Christian name would probably be the one still on his passport!

This is not a someone 'corrupted by an evil extremist religion', this is a kid looking for concrete answers after the death of his father. Some of these guys are barely out of their teens. If we spent more time listening to young people rather than demonising them they'd be less likely to resort to extreme measures to make their point.

[harpy]

spork wrote:
I’d defy anyone to easily tell my race and religion. How long will security want to work this out? Will they be employing theologists?

I did not suggest that security should have to know your religion before allowing you to board. As far as I am aware, there is no requirement for any of us to declare our religion in the UK at present. This does not alter the fact that profiling is a useful aid to assessing risk.


Superpilot wrote:
Situation, you are seen to have been:
Brown skinned
Young
Muslim
Male
Reading about aeroplanes!
Looking deep into the flightdeck everytime the door opened
Telling your mate you thought Bush was a w****r
Someone, on the plane shouts "Terrorist". The entire plane goes into a frenzy. Anti-terrorist squad escorts you off the plane with a gun pointed at you. They frisk you, to discover:
A Bluetooth GPS
A mobile phone with a photo of a flightdeck as the wallpaper
A PocketPC device with instructions on how to get to 'Aviation House'
Police visit your home, and find:
Internet links to anti-Bush, anti-war websites.
Your computers internet history showing you've been to pilot forums, trying to gain knowledge about whatever it was you were probably going to do that day.
A copy of the Quran in your cupboard, alongside 'Pooley's Flight Guide', 'Flying the big jets' and 'Stupid White Men'
A Pilot License, and a logbook proving you've been "surveying" the sites.
An airband radio with all the frequencies tuned in.
...Under current anti-terror legislation, someone like you is allowed to be locked away without being charged for nearly 3 weeks, in the process recking your whole life, probably rendering you jobless, unemployable and a whole lot more.
That someone coule be me, and thousands of other people. Therefore :yuk: to your racial profiling.

The example you give is very contrived and most unlikely to happen. It relies on someone on the aircraft shouting "terrorist" on the basis of very little evidence. It also relies on that person being taken seriously enough, despite the lack of evidence, for the anti-terrorist squad to remove the "suspect" at gunpoint. It seems more likely to me that the passenger who shouted "terrorist" would be asked to justify his claim and then politely asked to be quiet.

Here is another scenario for you.
It's 8 July 2005. The police are desperately trying to find the identity of the bombers. They collect the cctv tapes from the relevant underground stations. They are faced with a very time-consuming examination of the tapes, looking for the suspects who would probably be carrying bags or rucksacks or wearing bulky clothes. The question is do they:
a) Carefully check out every underground passenger seen on the tapes who matches the above description?
b) Fast-forward past the white faces and concentrate on young men of south asian appearance?
If the answer is a) what does this tell you about their detective skills? If the answer is b) are they racists?

Scenario 2.
It's World Cup time in Germany and a joint unit of British and German police are monitoring fans on cctv as they assemble in town prior to the game. They are looking for troublemakers including any known football hooligans who may have made it to Germany in spite of having been banned. A German policeman points out two groups of people to his black British colleague. Group "A" comprises dark skinned young men who seem to be well behaved but obviously enjoying themselves. Group "B" comprises white skinned young men with shaven heads who are also reasonably well behaved. Does the British policeman advise his German colleague to:
a) Examine each group carefully against the list of troublemakers?
b) First concentrate on group "B" because most football hooligans are white?
If the answer is a) what does this tell you about his policing skills? If the answer is b) is he a racist?

[spork]

harpy
“I’d defy anyone to easily tell my race and religion…” My post containing that was not aimed at you. Sorry if it looked like that. It stands alone as it reads. I like the rest of your post with the two scenarios. Basically, damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

[Jordan D]

bradfordboy when McVeigh bombed Oklahoma City in 1995, it was two years after the first attach on the WTC. At that time, US intelligence wasn't looking for home grown suspects. It just goes to prove that you can look one way, and be totally outfoxed by something happening in the other direction.

Jordan

[woolyalan]

Profiling isn't just based on race as some people seem to think, if you read properly into it there are many more important factors than race and religion. This is to make sure every asian isn't flagged as a potential terrorist, because they aren't.