View Full Version : PPL(A) 2yr renewal and TMG rating
Has anyone been told by the CAA that you can claim a TMG rating skill test flight as a 2yr PPL(A) revalidation (as long as the Instructor is qualified to do so)?
BEagle
15th Aug 2006, 11:59
The TMG Skill Test will certainly meet the '1 hr training flight' requirement, but you will need to have completed the SEP 12 hour experience (6 PIC) requirements as well in order to revalidate your SEP Class Rating. The TMG Skill Test does not need to be a minimum of 1 hour, incidentally, for this purpose.
Once you have your TMG Class Rating, however, hours on either SEP or TMG will count towards revalidation of both ratings.
The test flight was 1 hr in duration and my SEP licence signed the revalidation by Skill test was also a Skill test in a TMG. I was briefed by the CAA to annote the top of the form with 'TMG rating & SEP skills test'
BEagle
15th Aug 2006, 12:30
No comprendo, sorry.
Whopity
17th Aug 2006, 08:27
Dope,
In order to exercise the privileges of either a SEP or TMG class rating, both ratings must be in Part XII of your licence and both must be valid i.e. you have a valid certificate of revalidation for both classes. From this point on you can revalidate on either Class by test or experience gained in either class.
If neither TMG nor SEP were valid (you did say Skill Test) and you did a test in a SEP, then that test can only be counted towards a SEP renewal. It doesn't matter a damm what qualification the examiner has, you can't do a TMG test in a SEP Class of aeroplane. If in doubt read JAR-FCL1 Section 1.245
I was briefed by the CAA to annote the top of the form with 'TMG rating & SEP skills test' Precisely who gave you this duff information?
The CAA (FCL) told me!
- I had difficult understanding what Lasors was stating so I visited FCL - At this stage I had only one objective;
....to add a TMG rating on to my (between UK/JAR issued licence) I primarily wanted to find out who in the UK was able to Skill test TMG, but for data protection reasons the CAA would not give me a list!!!! (another story).. However, when running through dates etc we worked out that my 2 yearly revalidation was due and the FCL offered the fact that the TMG and SEP 2 yearly could be done in the same skill test as long as the Examiner was qualified to do so - fairly logical really! I left the CAA very happy. Even though they still would not tell me who was qualified!
This policy of combining RATING & SEP revalidation has now been verified my another Pprune user.
BEagle
17th Aug 2006, 12:09
Whopity, are there really people on the CAA front desk giving such duff advice?
As far as I can establish from what Dope says, he has a current and valid PPL(A) with SEP Class Rating and wished to add the TMG Class Rating to his licence.
The CAA couldn't tell him who was authorised to conduct the TMG Class Rating Skill Test - not for 'data protection' but because they STILL haven't sorted out their IT and don't have such information readily available! It was a white lie to protect the incompetent.
The CAA FCL statement actually meant that the TMG Class Rating Skill Test could be acceptable in lieu of the '1 hr training flight with an instructor' only as part of the SEP revalidation requirements if Dope also had the requisite SEP flight experience in the 12 months preceding the date of expiry of the SEP Class Rating.
A TMG CLASS RATING SKILL TEST IS NOT ACCEPTABLE IN LIEU OF THE SEP REVALIDATION LPC OR SEP RENEWAL LST!!.
A TMG Class Rating Skill Test and SEP Class Rating cannot be conducted during the same flight, as Whopity so rightly says.
To Clarify - the test was undertaken in a TMG. It was an Hour duration including all aspects std test plus two engine off's - you don't get that in your normal SEP test!
Thanks Beagle, re your closing statement...... If somebody can give me a clear logical reason - why not - I'll be happy to accept it. OR even point me to the text which states it is not possible - I can't find any reference apart from verbal hearsay.
If I had a TMG Rating I could do the SEP revalidation on a TMG!!!
I am demonstation a skill here - the skill was approved by a very proficient instructor/examiner - My skill was assessed for SEP and TMG.
I could have submitted the two requests to the CAA on separate forms and it would have probably have been satisfactory.
:ugh: what the.... is going on! ?
I am only thankful that I have not flown since the expiry of my original 2 year period.
Needless to say I will not be flying into Kemble this weekend!
Whopity
17th Aug 2006, 15:13
Dope
TMG and SEP are two different classes of aeroplane, they are different because it is considered there are different skills associated with each class, if not they would all be in the same group. Unless you are current in both classes, a test in one class will not have any validity on the other.
You can only do a TMG test in a TMG
You can only do a SEP test in a SEP
(c) Single-pilot single-engine class ratings – Validity and Revalidation. Single-pilot single-engine class ratings are valid for two years from the date of issue, or the date of expiry if revalidated within the validity period.
(1) All single-engine piston aeroplane class ratings (land) and all touring motor glider’s ratings – Revalidation. For revalidation of single-pilot single-engine piston aeroplane (land) class ratings and/or touring motor glider class ratings the applicant shall :
(i) within the three months preceding the expiry date of the rating, pass a proficiency check in accordance with Appendix 1 and 3 to JAR-FCL 1.240 or Appendix 1 and 2 to JAR-FCL 1.210 with an authorised examiner in the relevant class; or
(ii) within the 12 months preceding the expiry of the rating complete 12 hours flight time in [a single engine piston aeroplane or touring motor glider] [ ] [including:] (2) If a single-pilot single-engine class rating has expired, the applicant shall complete the skill test in Appendices 1 and 3 to JAR–FCL 1.240. Note the word RELEVANT Class!
(iii) When the applicant holds both a single-engine piston aeroplane (land) class rating and a touring motor glider rating, he may complete the requirements in (i) above in either class or in (ii) above in either class or a mixture of the classes, and achieve a revalidation of both ratings.
If they are both VALID you can mix and match.
Examiners should know this Stuff!
(i) within the three months preceding the expiry date of the rating, pass a proficiency check in accordance with Appendix 1 and 3 to JAR-FCL 1.240 or Appendix 1 and 2 to JAR-FCL 1.210 with an authorised examiner in the relevant class; or
The word 'Relevant' in this sentence relates the the Examiners authorisation to type. The examiner was relevant to both SEP and TMG.
There is not one item of text that states the TMG rating and SEP skills test cannot be done within the same testing parameters.
If one thinks of it simply; I could have got out of that TMG, got straight back in, replicated exactly the same flight and have met all the requirements you say are needed -This strikes me as very......er dumb.
I'll let you know what the CAA decide after I give them the details they want and I have cross referenced all applicable documentation showing the person who authorised the process was correct.
Thanks for the assistance - I think I am right to persist - as I am now looking at a possible Renewal rather than a Revalidation through no fault of mine!
QUOTE: Examiners should know this Stuff!
I think the CAA should know it and communicate it first!
Beagle,
The contact was fully conversed with my requirements and knew of my need to revalidate by skills test.
You make your bold statement but what is it actually based on?
I have looked and looked and cannot find any such text. Like most rules quoted outside of documented reference they seem to suffer from a certain amount of chinese whispering. I'm sure this is not the case with yourself - have you the reference to hand?
The CAA FCL statement actually meant that the TMG Class Rating Skill Test could be acceptable in lieu of the '1 hr training flight with an instructor' only as part of the SEP revalidation requirements if Dope also had the requisite SEP flight experience in the 12 months preceding the date of expiry of the SEP Class Rating.
A TMG CLASS RATING SKILL TEST IS NOT ACCEPTABLE IN LIEU OF THE SEP REVALIDATION LPC OR SEP RENEWAL LST!!.
A TMG Class Rating Skill Test and SEP Class Rating cannot be conducted during the same flight, as Whopity so rightly says.
TMG ratings and SEP renewals...
Hey,
I was told that information as well. I did a TMG skills test last year that counted for my SEP licence revalidation as well as my TMG type rating test.
Selected extracted from my personal message inbox.
How many more have been told?
Whopity
17th Aug 2006, 16:00
The word 'Relevant' in this sentence relates the the Examiners authorisation to type. The examiner was relevant to both SEP and TMG.
No it does not. You can only exercise the privileges of a Class rating in an Aeroplane of that Class! This is fundamental to all Class and Type Ratings.
I quite agree the CAA should know, but fundamentally the Examiner is a Pilot and the man on the phone is a Clerk so really its down to the Examiner to know his privileges, after all he will be examined on them when he renews his Examiner authorisation.
(a) Privileges. Subject to JAR–FCL 1.215(b) and (c) above, the privileges of the holder of a type or class rating are to act as a pilot on the type or class of aeroplane specified in the rating
But.....
You said in your text re if the TMG rating was also held by the pilot being checked : The examiner could revalidate a SEP on a TMG if he was qualified.... would he then exercising privileges outside of class!!! ie when flying a TMG to revalidate a SEP
No it does not. You can only exercise the privileges of a Class rating in an Aeroplane of that Class! This is fundamental to all Class and Type Ratings.
Whopity
17th Aug 2006, 16:25
Dope,
In order to benefit from the cross over between SEP and TMG, both ratings have to be valid. i.e. you have in your licence a Certificate of Revalidation that is in date. If it is in date you can revalidate by experience or test on either device. If you do that by test the examiner can sign both ratings, he does not need to be qualified on both types, it is a revalidation and both ratings remain current throughout.
If you let one expire, and you are revalidating them on the same criteria, then both must have expired. The ANO says:
(c) Expired Ratings
(ii) If a single-pilot single-engine class rating has expired, the applicant shall
complete the skill test in accordance with the requirements specified at
Appendix 3 to paragraph 1.240 of Section 1 of JAR–FCL 1.
So you now have to renew each rating on each class of aeroplane. Then you can keep them both current using hours on either. The moral of the story is that if you have both ratings, keep them valid!
If the SEP had still been valid, and you did the TMG test to renew that rating, then you could have revalidated the SEP on the basis of that test, but again the examiner does not need to be dual rated.
The examiner can only test on classes of aeroplane he is qualified to fly, he can sign administrative revalidations on other classes specified in his Authorisation.
so what you are telling me is that;
In my effort to add a rating (TMG) and revalidate (SEP) at the same time, I have now rendered both invalid as I am now passed the 2 year validity period of the SEP.
However, as long as the CAA recognise the TMG rating only (as flight was conducted prior to expiry of SEP) I can now renew on either SEP or TMG? or do I have to Renew on both SEP and TMG separately?
PS - I have still not seen any text stating it cannot be done!
BEagle
17th Aug 2006, 17:00
Dope, Whopity has explained everything to you and yet you still seem unable to understand the differences between licences, ratings, revalidation and renewal.
So I will try to explain it to you yet again.
1. If you have passed a TMG Skill Test, you have a PPL(A) with TMG Class Rating which you may use.
2. If you completed 12 hours flight time in SEP Class aeroplanes in the 12 months before the expiry date of your SEP Class Rating (including 6 as PIC and 12 t/os and ldgs), you may count the TMG Skill Test instead of the included '1 hr training flight with instructor' requirement for revalidation of your SEP Class Rating. Just as an Airbus type rating, military dual check, IMC Rating test or any other 'flight test' can count instead of the '1 hr training flight with instructor' revalidation requirement - but only if the 12 hours experience has also been achieved.
BUT you must have completed all of 2. above before the expiry date of your SEP Class Rating. If that date has now passed, you do not have a valid SEP Class Rating and, in order to fly SEP Class aeroplanes as PIC, will now need to complete a SEP Class Rating Renewal Licensing Skill Test with an Examiner authorised to conduct the test. You must do this in a SEP Class aeroplane, NOT in a TMG.
3. Once both Ratings are valid, you can then count all the hours in either Class towards revalidation of both classes.
4. "I did a TMG skills test last year that counted for my SEP licence revalidation as well as my TMG type rating test." Only true if the 12 hr flight experience requirement (see 2. again) had also been met. It would NOT, as Whopity has explained, have counted as a SEP Revalidation Licensing Proficiency Check if your 'contact' had chosen to revalidate his SEP Class Rating by the LPC option rather than by the '12 & 1' experience option.
Whopity
17th Aug 2006, 17:08
When you say add a TMG, I presume that you did not have one and wanted to have it added to your licence by the CAA.
TMG Test and SRG1119 will add the TMG. Was the SEP valid at that point? Did you have enough hours to revalidate it? If so the examiner could sign the revalidation on the basis of 12 hours experience and the test on a TMG, the examiner does not need to be SEP qualified as the TMG test would be in lieu of the flight with an instructor and could be a test on any class or type!
Technically, you cannot use mixed criteria for revalidation untill you have both class ratings in Part XII of your licence therefore an initial issue TMG class rating skill test should not be used for SEP revalidation; is that what they have done? Who signed the Certificate of Revalidation? If the TMG is new it would have to go to Gatwick for issue.
It seems very wrong that I can satisfy the examiner that I can fly a TMG and SEP yet 'the book says no!'
If the types are so different why even allow SEP and TMG holders to revalidate on either... not that I want this practise to stop!
My SEP was valid when I underwent a TMG rating skill test with an authorised examiner.
The only issue seems to be;
If I had previously proved abilty to fly a TMG I could have renewed my SEP.
But as I was just proving to be able to fly a TMG on this flight I cannot use it to revalidate a SEP!
Am I alone in thinking this is at best a bit dumb?
I assume the CAA will add my TMG rating to my PPL - but if they persist in not recognising my revalidation for SEP (as directed by them) my PPL would then be invalid....
Had I not followed their advise I would have done 2 hours repeating the previous test and therefore revalidating my SEP!
If I am now told I have to RENEW my PPL I will really throw my teddy!
shortstripper
17th Aug 2006, 19:09
Dope,
When you did your TMG rating was your SEP current? and is it still current? If it is, then surely you could go and ask the TMG examiner to sign up the SEP revalidation for you? ... Opps! No of course you can't as you didn't have a valid TMG at the time (it wasn't issued to you then) If it was a biennial (biannual?) renewal / revalidation with both ratings valid and current then he/she could have signed both ... couldn't they? Actually if the one on type was out of currency but the other in then the examiner doing the revalidation could sign the other at the same time if that rating was still in currency ... I think.
As you know, I have just validated my old CAA PPL SLMG rating and can now send off for the TMG to be added due to Grandfather rights (makes me sound ancient :\ ) However, I can't afford the £76 just yet so I'll have to count the hours seperately. The other bugger is that my SEP runs out around next April and the TMG (which I'll probably send for next month) will fall in the intevening year ... it's going to be hell remembering to keep them both signed up correctly! Mind you it's a small price to pay when I can enjoy a lovely flight like this evening. Just back from a half hour bimble over Chichester marina, around Selsey Bill and back for a nice first go at a crosswind landing in the old Slingsby. About 5-8 knots at 90 degrees, easy to keep a wing down, and a timely pull of airbrakes ensures that once the wheels touch that she is down! Who needs speed when you can have sooooo much fun at 55 knots :ok:
SS
PS Hope to make the rally Saturday and stop over to fly back Sunday ... fingers crossed.
BEagle
17th Aug 2006, 19:21
Let me try to explain things further....
It seems very wrong that I can satisfy the examiner that I can fly a TMG and SEP yet 'the book says no!'
You cannot do this in a single flight in a single Class of aeroplane.
If the types are so different why even allow SEP and TMG holders to revalidate on either... not that I want this practise to stop!
They are not 'types', they are 'classes'. There is a very big difference!
My SEP was valid when I underwent a TMG rating skill test with an authorised examiner.
The only issue seems to be;
If I had previously proved abilty to fly a TMG I could have renewed my SEP.
No. Even if you already held a TMG Class Rating, you can only renew a SEP Class Rating by passing a SEP Class Rating LST in a SEP aeroplane with a SEP Examiner.
But as I was just proving to be able to fly a TMG on this flight I cannot use it to revalidate a SEP!
No. You were demonstrating the required skill to fly a TMG class of aeroplane as PIC with passengers. That is more than 'just proving able to fly'... But the TMG Skill Test is acceptable as part of the '12&1' SEP Class Rating revalidation option, although you also need the associated 12 hour flight time (incl. 6 as PIC and 12 t/os and ldgs).
Am I alone in thinking this is at best a bit dumb?
I am beginning to think that you would be well advised to avoid the use of the word 'dumb'...
I assume the CAA will add my TMG rating to my PPL - but if they persist in not recognising my revalidation for SEP (as directed by them) my PPL would then be invalid....
No. There is no reason why the CAA should not add your TMG Rating to your PPL(A). If your SEP Class Rating has not been properly revalidated, your PPL(A) with TMG Class Rating will be valid but your SEP Class Rating will need to be renewed if you wish to fly a SEP Class aeroplane as PIC. The CAA would never 'direct' you with regard to your SEP Class rating; they may offer suggestions to your advantage but, not unreasonably, they do assume that you have some understanding of the regulations.
Had I not followed their advise I would have done 2 hours repeating the previous test and therefore revalidating my SEP!
I assume that you mean that you would have chosen to revalidate your SEP Class Rating by flying a revalidation LPC in a SEP Class aeroplane? 2 hours plus the Examiner's fee seems a somewhat expensive option.
If I am now told I have to RENEW my PPL I will really throw my teddy!
There is no logical reason why you should need to have your PPL(A) re-issued unless it is a JAR-FCL PPL(A) approaching the 5-year re-issue point. All JAR-FCL licences must be re-issued 5 years after initial issue (to do so requires a current and valid Class or Type Rating plus a current and valid JAA medical certificate plus a fee); however, if you have a pre-JAR-FCL PPL(A) then it is a lifetime licence which nver needs to be re-issued, although the validity of the Type or Class Ratings contained in the licence must be valid if you wish to fly as PIC.
Frelon
18th Aug 2006, 15:58
Hi Dope, I share your frustations....
Way back in 2003 I took a TMG Class Rating Skills Test and in the preceding 12 months had only flown 8 hours, all in TMG. On the basis of this test my SEP (land) was renewed and TMG rating added to my licence for the usual two year period.....by the CAA!
Good luck with your quest.
Frelon
Frelon
4th Oct 2006, 14:35
Hi Dope...dying to hear what happened! Or did your teddy get thrown out?
Hope it was all positive for you and you are now signed up for SEP and TMG.
Frelon