Ways for students to kill you ?

[The Nr Fairy]

Due to the course I'm on, this sort of info is top on my list of "things to know", as well as all sort of flying and groundschool related guff.
Things I've heard of and/or done myself:

Student pushing LEFT pedal in an CCW rotor system helicopter when entering autorotation.
Students bunting - ex f/w perhaps ?
Rolling throttle OFF when practising stuck collective and RRPM is already low.
Student not lowering lever when recovering from extended range auto (75kts, 90% RRPM).

Any more would be greatly appreciated.

[flyer43]

During incipient vortex ring demo and recovery, student first action was to lower the lever, say "oops" then raise the lever sharply again! (Not recommended !!) The effect was to immediately place us in full vortex ring state....... eventual recovery completed only a few hundred feet above the ground.

Also beware of some students throwing their hands in the air during a practise, or real emergency and saying that it is in the hands of their particular maker........

Assume you are starting out in the world of instructing. Good luck and keep your eyes open!

[Camp Freddie]

one way they and get you that I have seen at least 3 times, typically on a trial lesson, is that they are in the cruise on cyclic only and the a/c starts to pitch down and roll right and their response is to violently pull the lever up (which they dont even have control of), this despite briefing about what following through on controls means and about handing over of controls etc etc.

got my attention :uhoh:

regards CF

[Whirlygig]

How shall I kill thee?
Let me count the ways

I once asked my instructor what he was doing at the weekend and he replied that his Friday night ritual was to climb into a bottle of Bombay Sapphire because, every working day of his life, someone would try to kill him. "I haven't tried to kill you", I replied. "Not today you haven't!"

The birdstrike wasn't my fault, neither was the ground resonance nor the cyclic coming off in my hand. However, the dodgy lift resulting in a near dynamic rollover probably was.

Cheers

Whirls

[Hughesy]

Everytime they get near the machine....nah not that bad :}
I found that its the better students are the ones that will catch you out, as you tend to "relax" a little more with them then students that arent so hot.
Had the wrong pedal pushed on recovery on an auto :hmm:
Learnt to lock my foot in front of left pedal so if they pushed right pedal in (S300cbi) the left would not move past current position so the yaw of a lifetime could be avoided.
Have had some interesting moments, and not just from students. Had some funny event's with pilots getting a flight check or currency ride. ;)
Hughesy

[flyer43]

Whirls has just reminded me with her last comment re "near dynamic rollover".

During sloping ground landing practise have had a student lift the downslope skid only to nearly dump the collective in a fit of pique. Had I not had my hand ready we would most likely have performed a downslope roll........

[VeeAny]

On recovery from auto watch the ones that raise the lever and do nothing else.
Nose comes up, airspeed decays, still coming down, power now applied all the ingredients for vortex ring.

[Flingingwings]

Not all ways to kill you but a couple of these could prove expensive :{

Whilst teaching relationship between correlator,throttle and power - ie constant RRPM at different power settings- student opening or closing throttle too much.

Similar problems in Gov off exercises during take offs, landings and circuits.

Getting confused and believeing RRPM during auto will be increased by raising the lever :eek: Particularly on extended range autos

Allowing the nose to drop whilst auto is entered - the subsequent attempted levelling being over corrected to create a massive flare.

Harsh collective (snatching and dumping) for Take offs and landings, particularly during sloped ground training.

Hyd's off training when you first teach that.

Allowing the nose to drop mid turn during downwind quickstops.

Student on supervised solo flight starting aircraft with throttle open:eek: (I hasten to add not one that has happened to me - touches wood rapidly- but was a problem for YOUR favourite coastal training provider a few days ago when a/c was started with throttle fully open!)

Hope the course is going well :ok:

[Flingwing207]

I'm pretty happy as long as there's only one way they can move a control to cause real grief - for instance you can easily block left pedal and forward cyclic in an auto without interfering with a student's practice.

The tough ones are things like hover autos (will they raise, dump or leave the collective alone? Will they push that cyclic in any of the four directions it can move? Stay tuned...) and slopes (same thing). Otherwise, mind your RRPM, altitude and airspeed, things aren't too bad.

Remember that no matter how experienced the pilot, throw them into a new situation and they may make the same whacko mistakes - just the other day in my EC120 transition I rolled the throttle on instead of off on shutdown (something I haven't done since I was a 20-hour pre-solo student). I'm not sure who was more surprised, me or my IP. I beat him to the fix, and no harm done, but just remember, they (we) are ALL trying to kill you (or at least your helicopter)!

[MightyGem]

Not flaring at the bottom of an EOL! "I HAVE!!!", we ran on at about 60kts, stopped after about 50m. Good job there was nothing in the way.

[flyer43]

.................. or flaring so violently when very close to the ground that the tail rotor goes through the ground. An exciting ride ensues therafter..........

[crispy69]

One of my worst ones was not long after getting instructors rating going through Climbing and descending with a student. I had done all his training and he was quiet gifted. Anyway he had been flying C & D very well for about 15 min and I relaxed a little, Just in time for him to have a Hamster Failure and pull full pitch whilst rolling off throttle!!
It is quiet amazing how fast you can move when you think you are going to die lucky for me it was a 300 and not a 22.
I cant keep track of how many times students have tried to kill me in Autos but that is a time your guard tends to be a little higher so they are not so sucessfull.

Crispy

[212man]

Doesn't just have to be ab-initios, or even in the air. Teaching 50 year old 15,000 hours, in skidded aircraft, pilots to ground taxy a wheeled aircraft can yield one or two interesting moments too!

The comment about watching the experienced pilots is very valid; without doubt my most 'interesting' experiences doing Bell 212 base checks were with the most experienced pilots.;)

Now, if you want real fun and games, try line training a 150 hour CPL......:uhoh:

[moosp]

And the old favourite in an R22. Pulling the mixture out instead of the carby heat, carefully taking the plastic sleeve off before doing so. I met an insructor in the crew room about an hour after a student had done this to him at 1,000 ft and despite his heroic recovery he was in a very low state of morale... :(

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Gem - which machine were you in ?

[Pandalet]

However, the dodgy lift resulting in a near dynamic rollover probably was.


Yay, it's not just me! I was just about ready to go solo when I did this to my (poor, long-suffering) instructor - cue a few more hours of landing and take-off practice!

[Whirlygig]

Yay, it's not just me! I was just about ready to go solo when I did this to my (poor, long-suffering) instructor - cue a few more hours of landing and take-off practice!
...and oddly, it was also just about at that time in my training that I did it so, Nr Fairy, perhaps that is a point in a student's when you need to be a little more aware. Maybe as students we became a little complacent? As somebody else said, it is the more able students who may take you unawares!

Cheers

Whirls

[FlightOops]

Nr, so you feel confident of finding student that will fit in a 22 with you ! :)

Having been guilty of sticking the wrong boot in on first "unexpected" simulated engine failure during PPL training, you have my full support when you unleash a triade of abusive comments at your student when it first happens to you.

I think the advice is: expect it all the time and each time it doesn't happen only increases the probability on the next flight !:ugh:

Best of luck with the course. I'm sure other Pruners would be grateful of the "tips" you learn from your course (given the experience of your tutor) and would welcome further posts.

Keep the blue above you and the green below.

FO

[Chickenhawk1]

Heard about a student who was learning to hover and some how, without the instructor knowing, trimed the cyclic all the way forward, couple that with a sweaty palm/ light grip and needless to say, that helo doesn't go 'turn-turn' anymore.

[oldbeefer]

Ex fixed wing pilots (where they have been used to throttle on the left) in the hover - when a sink developes, their brains think 'more power'. Moving the left hand forward (quickly) translates into lowering the lever (quickly!). Nearly caught me out a few times.

[HillerBee]

What about training a hovering auto, on the count of three, I close throttle, guy pulls collective full up. We shot up to about 15-20 feet, losing RPM very quickly. (It wasn't his first by the way)

[kissmysquirrel]

So the 'gifted flyer' from down south was PIC when the engine went bang then?
OOPS!! How many incidents have they had recently. Must add up to a whole load of damage by now.£££££?? Insurance costs must go up in relation to the amount of engines you overspeed/overtorque. Or does it just affect everyone elses premiums?
OUCH.

Nr Fairy,
Doesn't matter who your student is, always be ready to take control at any time especially in an R22.
You'll have them freeze on controls on finals or the end of an auto. You'll have them put a full load of left/right pedal as they just adjust to get 'comfortable' in their seat.
They'll close the throttle on you mid turn.
etc, etc, etc.

No doubt your instructor will be able to tell you many stories.

[SASless]

Way back in my mis-spent youth....about the time I discovered beer, airplanes, and girls....I fancied myself a rider of horses....young unridden horses. Teaching helicopter flying is exactly like that in a lot of ways.

I seems to recall one horse in particular who was even more hard headed than most. Every time I showed up at the corral with a view towards convincing him it was his role in life to be a beast of burden things got interesting.

Upon laying eyes on me he would lay his ears back....start trembling and shaking his hide like ants were eating him...and snort and blow....paw the dirt. Not a good sign. Over a period of months, usually broken by a week of my hobbling around trying to get back to walking upright....we finally came to an understanding. I finally rode him out to the point he seemed to accept the inevitable.

Life was good.

On a trail ride, nice fall afternoon, in the middle of the forest at the furtherest end of the ride from the barn, while standing still looking at some deer crossing the trail, without any warning what so ever....not even a twitched ear or trimble of a flank....instant Rodeo! I mean lots of dust, bellowing, bucking, jumping, twisting, cutting donuts the entire slate of tricks and with emotion too! I probably made the eight second bell but wound up tossed square into the thistle patch with vigor. When I realized I was not dead, I sat up to see that rascal slowly walking for the barn. Knowing the effects of a hide full of thistle barbs....I did not lie there and conjer about what had got into that horse. I had no earthly idea what went through his mind to provoke such a bucking bronco act. Maybe he had a flashback to another life or something where he thought he was a part of Buffalo Bill's Traveling Wildwest Show.

Student pilots and pilots under training must be horses in a new life.

[Whirlygig]

Student pilots and pilots under training must be horses in a new life.
I trust you're not calling me an old mare? :p

Cheers

Whirls

[MightyGem]

Gem - which machine were you in ?

A gazelle.

[SASless]

Ah Fair Whirls,

I would never call you "old" ol' Girl! I would not wish to pass on with the clanging of a banjo being destroyed on my head as the last thing I heard in this life.;)

[Stan Switek]

I tried to think back to my training 25+ years ago to recall if I had done anything to give my CFI brown stains in his shorts. I was fortunate that my training was very uneventful when I had the CFI onboard.

During my solo time I lost the engine in the Bell 47G2 I was flying. I was at 500' in the pattern of a very rural airport, flying into a 10 knot wind, no wires, lots of open area. There wasn’t much my CFI could do but watch. Up to that point, I had just done power recovery autos. My first full touchdown auto was a non-event. Not a scratch on the A/C. Looks like the power recovery autos work. Gotta love the Bell 47. Everything happened really fast. I smelled oil burning, there was a severe engine vibration then it got really quiet. I made a slight 5 degree turn to the landing are I liked best, flared, pulled pitch & was down just like that. I just sat there for a few seconds listening to the blades wind down while I shut the mags, alt & battery off. (Bell 47's are so simple). The only grip my CFI had was that I didn’t land closer to the ramp to make it easier to load & trailer the A/C.

While I wasn’t the ace of the base by a long shot, I tried really hard to not do anything really stupid. I ran into my old instructor a few years ago & he greeted me warmly so I must have not scared him too severely.

Not long after I got my license I went to a school closer to my home to get a check out in a Hughes 300. Before my first lesson they wanted $2000 up front to get the block rate & more money on top of that for insurance for when I was passed my checkout. I seem to remember they wanted me to do 5 hours in their A/C for "insurance" before clearing me to rent their A/C. I was a bit suspicious about all the money they wanted up front so I just paid the higher hourly rate without giving then the $$$ they wanted up front. My CFI was newly minted CFI was French. I could not understand him half the time.

The first flight we just go fly around the general area, no pattern work. I wasn’t exactly a high time pilot at the time but I did have my license & just over 100 hours PIC working toward my commercial rating. Even though the 300 were a bit different than the Bell 47 I had no problem with the actual flying of the 300.

My next lesson I get paired up with "Frenchie" again. He tells me to go out & preflight while he chats on the phone with his babe. I finish the preflight & wait by the A/C not desiring the long walk back to the hangar. Frenchie shows up after about an hour & tells me to follow him back to the hangar. Frenchie takes me to the classroom & give me a chalk talk on how to fly the pattern. I'd flown in & out of this airport numerous times. After the big 5 min chalk talk, we go fly.

After the flight the guy tries to bill me for 1.2 hours ground instruction (while he was talking to his chick) in addition to the flight time. I said no freaking way. He tried to tag team me with the chief pilot but I stood my ground & pain him .1 ground, which was more then generous. When I told the chief pilot my side of the story & he still sided with his crooked CFI I know my relationship with that company was over.

I learned several things. When the company owner has an entire wall that is a shrine to him & they want a ton of money up front, it's a good idea to go elsewhere.

Anyway, that’s my bad CFI & flight school story. Hope it wan't too off topic.

[Johe02]

I had low time student, just coming in to the hover, when I said, 'I have control' he released the controls to me and reached back and put the friction on the collective :eek:

[topendtorque]

Way back in my mis-spent youth....about the time I discovered beer, airplanes, and girls....I fancied myself a rider of horses....young unridden horses. - Life was good.

At the risk of being labled a 'bit of a cheeky bastard' I reckoned I should trot out an old verse - so to speak.
Apologies to those under fire.
TET

And one was there, a sassy stripling on a small and flighty beast,
She was something like a racehorse undersized,
With a touch of English pony—three parts thoroughbred at least—
And such as are by mountain drivers prized.
She was a whirlwind of desire—would never need a gig.
There was courage in her quick impatient tread;
A challenge of gameness and a lovely, long lithe leg,
On this mare this sassy boy, would need to keep his head.

[Whirlygig]

:D :D :D
I don't know whether to slap you or buy you a beer!

Cheers

Whirly "Built like a Shetland Pony" gig!

[topendtorque]

"or buy you a beer!"

Please, i insist the pleasure to be mine - the other fulla is layin in the prickles!

[Jack Mehoff]

Teaching in a B47, started the lesson off introducing hovering Auto's, went ok, moved the lesson onto full down auto's, going over what we had covered earlier. Again, lesson going well, after 30 mins of these, just said, OK lets do another full down and go back... pretty simple I thought. With that the student then snaps the throttle shut, and down we come! I was like Roy Rogers on the draw! I couldn't believe it! woke me up I should say!
Darren :eek: