Anybody out there in JAA land - UK in particular - flying on a vanilla flavoured PPL (that is, no IMC or Instrument rating) but holding a night qualification (or old, CAA, night rating)?

Do you actually use it to night fly with?

Where from/to?

Serious question - I'll explain later.

I was, a few years ago, although I've added a few other qualifications to it since.

I got the night qualification in the USA, and did use it quite a bit there.

Then I came home, and that was pretty much the end of my night flying. My home airfield only allowed night-flying on weekdays, and it finished before I got back from work. My next nearest airfield didn't do any night flying. Next one after that only allowed based pilots who knew the airfield well to fly there at night due to trees on short final. Next one after that, I got checked out with every intention of doing some night flying, but disliked the club that checked me out sufficiently to not bother.

A few years later, I was lucky enough to work as a night instructor at an airport which actually had some lights and turned them on daily. I love night flying, albeit there's extra risk involved, and I hope that my current job allows me to do at least a little bit of night flying once winter come around again.

FFF
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Keygrip

I obtained my night qual in Feb this year but have yet to use it, I have a PPL but am starting the CPL/IR at the end of September, I was thinking of using it for the odd flight but am a tad wary due to the single engine at night saga, I may do a flight around dusk when the nights draw in a bit more

Dean

I got my PPL with night rating in Jan this year - I'm based in Aberdeen where it gets dark around 3pm in the winter, so I'm looking forward to using it then :)

Personally, I use the night qualification rarely because IMV the risk of an engine failure on a proper dark night is not acceptable. There is no escape route.

The shortage of GA airports that open late enough is another problem in the UK.

I have flown at night, to the extent needed to get the ratings (including the standalone FAA PPL) and occassionally to get home late, in the winter. But the 90 day passenger carriage requirement is another hassle; I rarely bother to fly the 3 full-stop circuits to revalidate mine nowadays.

I have my own views on the whole issues of navigation with a PPL+NQ - you need full instrument capability to do it, but you aren't taught anywhere near the necessary level. The way it is taught in the UK, you do little local flights, from one well lit town to another, using dead reckoning. In my training, we got totally lost and the instructor (who didn't have a clue where we were either) just said "well this shows that you can get lost very easily at night" and signed me off :)

Yep, Old (non-JAA) PPL/Night - I use it flying in Jersey in the 'dark' months fo Island hopping (nice to go for a day to Guernsey/Alderney/France) and be able to come back at a reasonable time.

Agree about the issue of SE flight at night though with the poss of the fan stopping - I didn't go on the idea of "just point at a black bit and hope for the best"! Slightly less worrying at night over water :} but the rule there is to find the nearest ferry to ensure you get a good supply of drink when you get picked up :ok:

Not really interested in getting my IMC as I don't intend to fly when marginal, and I would worry about currency - flying at night is after all a VFR flight and you shouldn't be fixated on your instruments in the cruise - unless of course you loose any kind of ground/horizon references.

flying at night is after all a VFR flight and you shouldn't be fixated on your instruments in the cruise - unless of course you loose any kind of ground/horizon references

which is exactly what does happen.

UK night training isn't done in anything like a dark night; they wouldn't be able to because the students need a visible horizon, and on a dark night there isn't anything at all to see out of the window.

The other thing is that, even on a night where one can see a bit, one can fly into haze/fog/IMC.

IMHO this privilege is not what it seems. One needs the IMCR or the IR to use it fully. And I think most PPLs know this, too, judging from the insignificant night VFR (actually, night=IFR in the UK but let's not go there right now) traffic.

I have ppl/night (got nq in feb) I used it plenty until the clocks changed,unfortunately EGNJ closes at 8pm local so night flying is out of the question at this time of year.I will be using it again as soon as it gets dark earlier.
I have no problems with s/e night flying,if I have an engine faliure then so be it-if its your time to go then so be it:}

Light twins are equally dangerous in the dark/imc if you have a problem.

UK night training isn't done in anything like a dark night; they wouldn't be able to because the students need a visible horizon, and on a dark night there isn't anything at all to see out of the window.



Agreed, at most UK airfields. However I did mine at EGJJ - and crosswind to downwind and downwind to base leg turns all done out towards the (very) dark briney - coupled with holds at Corbiere and Noirmont Point with turns out to the black void all make for very interesting flying, jumping from visual references to instruments and back again.

On my Qualifying solo, I had a 15 minute hold at Noirmont Point waiting for the inbound commercials to land. Dull, 8/8 night with a 2500' cloudbase but goodish viz, so no real horizon references out over the water. To make matters worse, aircraft nav lights and boat/light bouy lights can be confusing (is that up or down? is that a boat or an aircraft? am I actually flying upside down or not?)!!

Certainly made me a better pilot and I have absolutely no issues in flying on instruments, but I wonder if I'd feel so comfortable if I had done my night rating over a sprawling well lit metropolis like Bristol?

IO540,

Sorry to pick on you(!)
But the 90 day passenger carriage requirement is another hassle; I rarely bother to fly the 3 full-stop circuits to revalidate mine nowadays
Only one of the three take-offs and landings needs to be at night to carry passengers at night. Surly one circuit isn't too demanding?
In my training, we got totally lost and the instructor (who didn't have a clue where we were either) just said "well this shows that you can get lost very easily at night" and signed me offWhen I brief students for night nav, I discuss with them that it is far harder than daytime navigation, and I discuss with them the use of navaids when flying x-country at night. Very often, one of the main points which students take away from their night x-country dual is how difficult it is.

I accept that this is not universal, though. An ex-colleague of mine was well known for only ever taking his students on one night navigaiton route, which followed the coastline from town to town the whole way - a completely pointless exercise IMHO.
UK night training isn't done in anything like a dark night; they wouldn't be able to because the students need a visible horizon, and on a dark night there isn't anything at all to see out of the window
Of cousre it's not possible to guarantee a dark night, but certainly having a dark night would not prevent me from doing training. There are plenty of lights on the ground for visual reference, and a dark night is the perfect time to demonstrate to students the illusions which we've discussed in the classroom, especially the false horizon which can occur when street lights are the only visual reference, and how to use the instruments to combat these illusions. If I didn't fly on dark nights, it would be impossible to demonstrate these things effectively.
One needs the IMCR or the IR to use it fully
I disagree. What is needed is a good understanding of instruments - both flight and navigation instruments. Many PPLs have this understanding despite having never had an IMCR nor an IR.

You do make some very good points about the general safety issues of single engine at night, and the lack of availability of airfields - but I think the big picture is slightly more balanced than what you are trying to put over.

It sounds to me like Vulcanpilot had an excellent instructor for his night training!

FFF
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Only one of the three take-offs and landings needs to be at night to carry passengers at night. Surly one circuit isn't too demanding?

3 under FAA rules ;)

Funny that, given that FAA qualifications are often regarded as coming on the back of a fag packet.