New Security

[MichaelJP59]

Does anyone plan on changing their travel plans as a result of the new rules?

Personally, I'm under pressure from my wife to cancel our family holiday to the US in a couple of weeks - she's worried about security and the fact that keeping small children amused on a flight for 10 hours is hard enough even when you're allowed to take books, toys, games etc.

And business trips were already a real pain, but no laptop, mobile phone or even paperwork allowed? I'll still have to go on essential trips but will probably cut my current 8 trips a year to 4. I think airlines currently rely on a lot of "non-essential" business.

I can't believe I'm the only one in a similar position. This one could be really serious for the aviation industry, worse than 9/11 and no-one has even managed to blow up a plane!

[Final 3 Greens]

I'll certainly be avoiding London as a transfer point wherever possible.

I'm using Frankfurt next week and Zurich & Rome the week after.

[James 1077]

I know my wife has said that she'll be avoiding travelling across the Atlantic on holiday in the near future (we did just that about 3 weeks ago and were thinking of going again for future hols).

Other than that I doubt that it will have much effect on our travelling plans together; she won't fly BA or any American Airline for security fears anyway (this has probably just strengthened that). But this still leaves all the Asian and European carriers to explore the rest of the world with!

I take a more fatalistic approach that if it is going to happen it is going to happen. So if that great ski trip to America comes up this winter I'll be off like a shot regardless of carrier! At the end of the day you are still more likely to get blown up on the tube going to the airport in my mind! :-)

[slim_slag]

Yep, several Americans I know have now cancelled plans to come over the Atlantic. No doubt there will be some cheap transatlantic fares coming along shortly, and more money will be made by selling water on board than the ticket.

[Man-on-the-fence]

No plans to change at all, I wouldnt dream of letting Terrorist scum influence my life to that extent.

I am travelling to the USA in just over a month on an American airline, these plans wont be amended. All I have done is made plans to be able to carry my camera equipment within the aircrafts hold, it has meant me buying a slighly different type of new camera bag than I had planned to.

If you change your plans then you may as well hold up a white flag.

[MichaelJP59]

Personally the security aspect doesn't worry me or put me off, but 3 hours delay boarding and 3 hours at the other end certainly does.

[BORN4THESKYS]

Ladies and Gents

It is true to say that we are going to face long delays and disruption for some time. But this disruption is a small price to pay to ensure the safety of our loved ones. We have been facing a serious threat for the past few years, but due to our pathetic goverments, they have tryed to bury the problems under the carpet rather than deal with them head on, and only now are they and the public realising the full threat of the problems we face as a society.

What also worrys me is the quick turnaround times that cheap budget airlines have between flights. With a goverment that emplys illegal immigrants to work as cleaners and yes even immigration officers without knowing, illegals working at airports etc etc, I think a certain amount of luck also as well as hard work from the police and security services has prevented anopther atrocity. How the hell can aircraft been security sweeped properly in such short turnaround times, if even at all with some carriers Im sure? It does worry me how easy it has become to get a job in airports for people with bogus identication etc, or none at all in some cases, how hard would it be for them to smuggle something through security, thats if they don't work as security!

Could in the very near future, we see turnaround times increased to allow foe proper security checks, and if so hows this going to affect budget airlines and the consumer?

Interested to hear peoples views and thoughts.

Safe and happy landings people, and take care.

Regards

[RevMan2]

The UK incident and subsequent tightened security is going to have significant impact on business travel (which subsidises the rest of the punters).
Assuming that the current restrictions stay in place and are adopted more widely (which I fully expect, albeit in a minimally less stringent form), business travel will drop off for a number of reasons
- lack of time effectiveness on there-and-back-in-a-day European trips (time needed to check-in and retrieve your luggage, total loss of in-flight working time, significant increase in security procedures)
- reluctance to risk the loss of your notebook/Filofax/PDA/mobile/business documents,
- general re-thinking of the necessity, cost-effectiveness and risk-management aspects of travel
- the general pain in the butt of the whole thing
Airlines and airports will be forced to re-address the security and liability issues relating to checked luggage. Anyone who's halfway observant has seen the way that luggage is handled and I've had my share of suitcases-dropped-from-a-great-height.
If you restrict a customer's carry-ons to passport and ticket, you automatically assume liability for the contents of his checked-luggage. Exclusion clauses for electronic equipment etc will disappear. The courts will see to that.
Costs will increase, with RFID becoming the standard platform for providing an audit trail of luggage from check-in to retrieval, airports being forced to restructure their airside facilities to provide arrival duty-free sales to replace departure shopping and access to travel necessities in a sterile environment, major accounts (or the market) will force airlines to provide business travellers with secure and preferential transportation for checked-in hand luggage.
Multi-layered and more stringent security procedures for airport/airline employees will become standard.
The list goes on forever.
Just watch all this unfold before our very eyes....

[Xeque]

It's not just a possible airline recession - it's the knock on effect.

My better half and I had lunch on the beach at Pattaya the other day. Here we are in the first two weeks of August when we should be cheek by jowel with foreign tourists and poor Pattaya is dead. Hundreds of yards of beach umbrellas, tables and chairs just unoccupied.

SARS, Bird Flu, the touble in the south and the tzunami have wreaked havok with the local tourist industry. Now this.

I can only speak for Pattaya where I live but I know the other resorts are suffering too since I am in regular touch with friends who live in Phuket and Samui as well as inland to the north (Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai).

Whole countries hopes and expectations are being destroyed by incidents like this.

What, in your opinion, would solve the problem?

[MichaelJP59]

I think the whole long-haul holiday business is going to suffer even more than it is already. Anecdotal I know, but a friend recently pulled out of buying a beautiful holiday property in Thailand. It was partly an investment and he doesn't think it's a good one anymore and that was even before the latest plot.

I don't know the answer. It's worrying that we have reached this stage without any big trigger like 9/11 was. I can't believe that a passenger jet hasn't been shot down yet by a surface-to-air missile - surely that's only a matter of time and what will happen then?

[Avman]

I fly about 60 times a year. Half of these flights are between the Benelux countries and the UK. My hand baggage weighs the required 6 kg. I can't risk placing any of my hand baggage items in my checked baggage. By all means ban liquids and gels and even mobiles (yipee), but if I can't take all my other stuff, then I will definitely have to review my future travel plans to the UK. It will most probably mean taking the car, adding 6 hours each way to my trip, not to mention the fatigue factor. I appreciate that these are difficult times, but if these type of restrictions persist I believe that it will affect the industry considerably.

[ExSimGuy]

Business - I travel quite a lot around the Middle-East, where the latest happenings have not yet had an effect, but the post-9/11 security means a 2-hour check-in for almost any flight.

Riyadh-Dammam. 400km. 45 min Domestic flight but still almost as quick to drive. (Plus,you have your car when you get there and you can leave at the timeyou want)
Riyadh-Bahrain. 470 km. 50 minutes International and just as quick to drive
Riyadh-Doha. around 600 km and it would probably be better to fly - if there were daily flights
Riyadh-Dubai. about 1300 km and should be a "no-brainer", but two out of the last 4 sectors, the flight has been delayed so badly by sick aircraft that it competed with the 12-hour driving time!

I recently had a meeting to attend in Doha and I was going to be in Bahrain prior to that. It's quite a long drive back through Saudi so I decided to fly (30 minutes flying time), as there's quite a few daily flights. The entire day (travelling and meeting) was around 10 hours,and I could only fit in about 3 1/2 hours for the meeting. The rest of the time was "farting around in airports"

If that had been in Europe, with the risk of the lappy and the PDA-phone being "lost" or damaged in the hold, I wouldn't have flown.

Holidays - Not too much choice here. My alternatives, if I want to see my mother and my kids, are either to spend 2-3 weeks each way on a ship (and turn around as soon as I get to UK!) or drive; probably around the same travelling time. As for the daughter in USA, the only other option there is to swim!

So on the 23rd September, I'll be on GF007 to London and then (after the GatBash!) on US099 to Philadelphia. Just hope things have eased up a bit by then and the lappy and PDA-phone (essential as I have to keep in touch with work) can travel safely with me "upstairs" :ooh:

[Dryce]

Does anyone plan on changing their travel plans as a result of the new rules?


If the new rules stay in place then it will significantly reduce the amount
of domestic business travel by air that my colleagues and I undertake.

I'm not willing to check in my laptop. If it goes AWOL or gets broken
then the whole purpose of my trip will normally get squandered and I
lose the opportunity to work.

Same goes for my mobile.

Same goes for my car key.

I would be tempted only if the industry covers the consequential
loss as well as the material loss. (The reason that I think the
industry should cover it is that while I still end up paying for it
at the end of the day the carriers and handlers get incentivised
to make sure problems don't occur in the first place).

So train or car will be first choice for domestic travel and the pattern
will be changed to trying to cluster/combine travel.

As for long haul travel then there are few alternative options so that
will just have to be dealt with.

[EastMids]

Already happening... The company I work for is already now mandating Virgin Trains or GNER for domestic travel, rather than BA or BD or whatever, because they won't risk us losing laptops - not the laptop itself so much as the inconvenience and the sensitive data. Most of the company's bookings are short notice peak period, so it means higher fares. And next week, some folks are going from the UK to the USA via Paris, with the journey to Paris on Eurostar, to avoid the stupid regulations here.

If the government don't change the rules soon, this is going to cripple airlines for years to come. The sad thing is that taking stuff on isn't a problem - in every other country in the world hand baggage is still allowed including when flying from the USA to the UK, although more stringent inspection is commonplace. The thing that is different here is that the government and/or the airport operators aren't prepared to do the physical inspections, finding it easier just to impose an idiotic ban on everything.

Andy

[Tandemrotor]

I see on Sky News, Ryanair are demanding the UK government provide more security staff. Last time I checked, Ryanair were an Irish airline!

How do they intend to share the cost????

[Oh that's super!]

Perhaps, business class pax should get a 'safe' each to put their valuables in. This is to be provided within the business class cabin so that they don't have to be far from them. But they won't be permitted to access them in flight.

That should achieve the same 'security result' as making people put their laptops in the hold, but without the risk of loss or damage.

[Shanwickman]

Yes but the airports concerned are in the UK.
BA are also criticising the airports authority, BAA for their handling of the situation. Airlines are being told by BAA to cancel a percentage of their flights to help alleviate the problem. Clearly this situation cannot continue indefinitely.
Its a major problem for all stakeholders.

[BEagle]

54 business class flights so far this year - 6 last week.

But I'm now giving serious consideration to Eurotunnel and driving myself to places such as Bremen, Cologne...even Friedrichshafen.

I'm simply not prepared to risk losing computer, phone, car keys and important documents due to absurd UK security rules, nor tolerate the delays at security screening points.

What a shame the SeaCat isn't still sailing on the Dover-Oostende route..... Drive to Dover (3 hours) good 2 hour break with a guaranteed seat at a table on the SeaCat to relax or do a little work, then another 6 hours to Bremen. Sooo much better than being treated like a convict by some bottom-fondling failed wheelclamper in a 3 hour airline security queue!

[eidah]

Its about time the airlines started making noises about the airport authorities. I would have thought that seems pax are not having any hand luggage they should in theory be going through security quicker.

[fyrefli]

Drive to Dover (3 hours) good 2 hour break with a guaranteed seat at a table on the SeaCat to relax or do a little work, then another 6 hours to Bremen. Sooo much better than being treated like a convict by some bottom-fondling failed wheelclamper in a 3 hour airline security queue!

If your "quite near an an aerodrome somewhere in England" is on the south coast this may not work (although three hours to Dover suggests not) but, if you can make the times fit, the HSS Harwich >> Hoek van Holland is only a little over 3 hours and very pleasant to work on. Shaves over an hour off the journey to Bremen the other end, according to MapQuest.

Cheers,

Rich.

(Edited due to inability to quote BEagle's location correctly or choose correct Bremen in MapQuest ;) )

[JW411]

No doubt Tandemrotor will apologise (as he usually does) now that he realises that his own Lords and Masters are also complaining and indeed louder than Ryanair?

[Tandemrotor]

One way or another

My own???

"Lords and Masters" will be required to 'share the cost'

Read my first post again!!!

[BEagle]

Thanks for that - I've been looking at costs/times and Harwich to the Hook looks quite promising. An on-line quote gave a price of £292 return were I to travel tomorrow! And then only about 4 hours to Bremen...

Which means that, door-to-door, it is a more agreeable concept than air travel. And, very probably, also quicker given the delays for convict-level search going on at airports at the moment.

Air travel may soon have had its day. It is getting to be an intolerable embuggerance for the business traveller.......

One wonders whether airline executives are reading this?


....and so much for the A380!

[drichard]

If your "quite near an an aerodrome somewhere in England" is on the south coast this may not work (although three hours to Dover suggests not) but, if you can make the times fit, the HSS Harwich >> Hoek van Holland is only a little over 3 hours and very pleasant to work on. Shaves over an hour off the journey to Bremen the other end, according to MapQuest.

Cheers,

Rich.

(Edited due to inability to quote BEagle's location correctly or choose correct Bremen in MapQuest ;) )

Harwich-Hook is a good crossing - used it several times myself, unfortunately Stena (the operators) have announced that it is to be removed next year because it is losing money due to competition from the low cost airlines.:mad: Checkin is a nice 40 minutes b4 departure (with car),if travelling on foot, the train takes you to the boat (no taxi needed), crossing is 3.5 hr o/w 4hr back (due to problems with the wash from the boat causing large waves - killed a couple of fishermen b4 the cause was identified). One way ~ £25 (on foot from London, incl train ticket)

Paris is 2hr 50 min from Waterloo, London is 90min from birmingham, 2hr 20min from leeds, ok it's 4.5hr from edinburgh. But with only 30 minute checkin and as much hand baggage as you can carry. At the moment it's a nobrainer - Eurostar wins my vote for a route to a mainland-europe jumping off point. Sorry BAA - I won't be coming your way any time soon.

[RAT 5]

I thought RYR now charged per hold baggage item. What is the consequence of pax being forced to have their 'hand baggage' only placed in the hold? Are they being charged?

[PAXboy]

Airport checks 'not sustainable'
BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4787161.stm) Saturday, 12 August 2006, 18:37 GMT 19:37 UK

Stringent security searches which have led to long delays and cancellations at Heathrow are not sustainable, airport operator BAA has warned.

The airport cancelled a third of flights on Saturday evening in a bid to speed its return to a normal schedule. Heathrow earlier came under fire from British Airways for being unable to cope with the extra security measures.

Meanwhile, Ryanair said the government should provide additional staff to carry out body searches at airports.

The article continues ...

[jetstream7]

Why should any airline, Irish, British or otherwise, and their customers, be penalised by the decision of the British government?

[FlyingV]

I've deferred my next visit to the UK in the hope that the carry-on restrictions are somehow changed. I do roughly one day-trip per month to London with a laptop and an expensive camera. No way can I let either travel in checked bagage. With online checkin it had gotten so easy to do a day trip. Now I'd need to queue to check in and wait for baggage at the other end - hopefully undamaged & unstolen! It makes my day trips less feasible. Overnight stays will add to my cost and visiting the UK will become unviable financially.

Not sure what I'll do if the restrictions don't change.

[spinnaker]

Why should any airline, Irish, British or otherwise, and their customers, be penalised by the decision of the British government?
In that case I think its time to start paying fuel tax to pay for the extra security.

The Government decisions were taken to protect our backsides

[EastMids]

At last I agree with something coming out of Ryanair - there's a first time for everything!

The Government decisions were taken to protect our backsides
There are no restrictions on hand baggage on flights into the UK, other than one or two countries not allowing liquids. If you believe that the UK restrictions solve a problem, then consider that almost every outbound passenger gets a return flight sooner or later - effectively, if you believe that the UK government has solved a problem, you're saying you're willing to get blown up coming into the UK as long as you don't get blown up going out.

The government decisions were taken to protect THEIR backsides, not ours. If a flight inbound to the UK gets attacked, the likelihood is that no fewer lives are lost, no less damage is done. All that happens is that the UK government can point the finger elsewhere.

Andy

[10secondsurvey]

Similar picture with friends in the North. Some are looking at the Edinburgh to zeebrugge ferry, and then via rail around europe/contintental flights, and other looking at the Newcastle-Ams for week long business trips. The fact that absolutely everything including car key/phone/documents is 'put at risk' in the hold will make business flying pointless. Add in the extremely long queues etc... and we can be sure it will knock aviation hard in the UK.

I fully agree with tight security, but when the whole focus of BAA airport management is on 'retail opportunities', it is hardly going to get better in the short term.

Out of choice, I probably will try to avoid any flying in the short term, just because of the hassle, queues, and hand baggage restrictions.

On a more important point, can someone confirm if it is still the case that someone can work airside in an airport/airline for six months before security checks are complete?

[dwhcomputers]

Sorry unable to fly at all with the new restrictions According to BAA website only prescription medicines and medical items sufficient and essential for the flight (e.g. diabetic kit), I take in excess of 300 tablets/liquid medication a week. With this medication I can lead a reasonably normal life and are not confined to bed or have to have a wheelchair. If I check my medication in as hold baggage and it goes missing what chances do I have to get it replaced within 12 hours. Zero.
This will effect very many disabled people who will not take the risk of checking in medication

[Flame]

Hi All;

Sincerest apologies if this subject has been covered elsewhere, I could not find it myself, but here goes anyway .....

As a result of the events of this past week, flying as a passenger has become increasingly frustrating. No hand luggage allowed UK to US, yet it is allowed US to UK. Passengers not allowed to carry water themselves on any flights, especially those longhaul routes where it is vital. Airlines differ as to the amount of non alcoholic liquids they give passengers during flights

Lines are getting longer at security checks at airports and tempers are fraying.

While I am in favour of extra security and agree almost 100% with decisions made to protect me and the travelling public, I do have some questions directed to the companies, making substiantial amounts of money, running major airports ...

Why is nothing being done to increase the area being used to screen passengers at these airports

Why are we not seeing any extra "temporary screening areas" to check passengers

Why has there not been more screeners on duty to cope with the situation

Airports have no problem allowing as much space to shops, duty free etc etc to contribute to their profits, yet will make no extra space available to the travelling public when the situation requires it. Now I am aware that some airports are space restricted, but if only they put the some consideration into the needs of the travelling public over their greed at profits it might help alleviate some hassle for passengers

Maybe some may think I am going off on a tangent here, but it appears to me that the airports are doing little or nothing to help the travelling public apart from putting in a few extra screeners at already congested security points

Why has no airport (to the best of my knowledge) offered free small bottles of water to passengers, before they board aircraft, most of whom at this stage, deposited valuable property in bins that they are not allowed carry onboard

Before anyone decides to "flame" me, please remember I am in favour of the security measures but am at a total loss to understand the actions of the airport managers

[10secondsurvey]

Flame,

I couldn't agree more. Much of the space in BAA airports has disappeared over the past few years, to allow more and more shops to be built. Years ago, many terminals were relatively spacious, but are now just hell holes full of shops and virtually no space left for the passengers. The upshot is that in situations like this, there is quite literally no space for the passengers. On the 11th you had the ridiculous scenario at LHR T1 domestic security, of pax queuing in a snake like patterm around BA check in desks and WHSmith.

For years, security at all BAA airports has been seriously understaffed (in order to maximise profits), and now in this current situation, the system cannot cope. This is despite the fact that everyone pays for the security checks. I personally would like to see BAA management taken out and shot, and half the shops removed from their airports.

Now we have the absurd scenario of goods being confiscated at security, but pax can then buy the same goods from BAA shops once past security. It's not about security, just BAA making a fast buck. Time the government did something about this mis-management.

Maybe BAA should start running shopping malls, and leave aviation to people who know how to run airports.

[spinnaker]

if you believe that the UK government has solved a problem, you're saying you're willing to get blown up coming into the UK as long as you don't get blown up going out.


I think you have missed it completely. The intelligence received indicated an attack on outbound flights from the UK to the USA. If similar intelligence was received on an inbound flight, I would expect the flight to either be cancelled or subject to the same conditions.

[Pollyana]

Sorry unable to fly at all with the new restrictions According to BAA website only prescription medicines and medical items sufficient and essential for the flight (e.g. diabetic kit), I take in excess of 300 tablets/liquid medication a week. With this medication I can lead a reasonably normal life and are not confined to bed or have to have a wheelchair. If I check my medication in as hold baggage and it goes missing what chances do I have to get it replaced within 12 hours. Zero.
This will effect very many disabled people who will not take the risk of checking in medication
Nowhere near as serious a position as the one you are in, but I have to fly regularly from the UK to Australia - forget the 10 hour flights, thats the short leg, and you can't get to your checked in bags inbetween. Last trip was for a funeral and the return trip was via a 10 hour transit stop in Tokyo......that makes a long trip door to door. I suffer from severe eczema, I need cream every three hours or so, esp on air conned planes, or I'm in dried up agony. I also can't use soap, and have to take medicated liquid wash with me. the doctors here won't give me prescriptions, I have to buy the stuff over the counter.
I'm now faced with the prospect of 36 hours of no moisturising cream of oil...result at least a fortnight of agony, worse if I scratch and it gets infected. And with no reading matter etc, I will be tempted to scratch.
I pray to god they relax the rules a little and start applying a bit of common sense.

[MichaelJP59]

I think you have missed it completely. The intelligence received indicated an attack on outbound flights from the UK to the USA. If similar intelligence was received on an inbound flight, I would expect the flight to either be cancelled or subject to the same conditions.

Hmm. I think you'll find that many people don't have the same faith in the intelligence agencies that you seem to have.

As other have said, the current carry-on rules are unsustainable, ineffective and pointless. Are we really saying that terrorists could not hop on a ferry to mainland Europe and carry out their nefarious plans from a hub there?

I suspect the real reason for the emergency security rules is to attempt to convince the mass public that in the authorities view this was a serious plot and that the arrest of around 20 men is for a good reason. Personally I'm keeping an open mind on that and am quite prepared to believe that there was a plot (though it sounds somewhat hare-brained), but the emergency measures are self-justification.

[Wile E. Coyote]

For years, security at all BAA airports has been seriously understaffed (in order to maximise profits), and now in this current situation, the system cannot cope. This is despite the fact that everyone pays for the security checks. I personally would like to see BAA management taken out and shot, and half the shops removed from their airports.


It appears that BAA are rather more interested in maximizing profit from pax in shopping malls than from running airports as places for people to travel to and from.:hmm:

My next trip across the Atlantic is now booked; I'm going by ship.:ok:

[TightSlot]

I think we have got as far as we can get here, and with the change of rules on hand-baggage announced this morning, it is time to close this thread.

A new thread has been started by BEagle, SECURITY - Revised Uk Rules (14 Aug 2006) (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=238932) and I've made it stick to the forum top for a while: Please continue your discussions there.