lap tops with new security rules

[Bumz_Rush]

I have not seen any reference to the safety of any lap top that is now in the hold...and what about the safety of the expensive mobile...

I understand that water purchased in the departure lounge is being confiscated.

What about newspapers, and magazines...

Please if any body knows the answer please respond.

Bumz

[Mark Lewis]

As I understand it anything purchased airside is permitted to be taken onto the aircraft, unless it is a flight to the USA, when liquids purchased airside cannot be take onboard.

However it would appear that there is some obvious confusion amongst staff about the rapidly changing and considerably varying different regulations from various quarters, so don't take anything for gospel.

Hopefully everything will be a bit more smooth tomorrow after all the staff have got a bit more used to things as they are.

[rfw1]

Does anybody know what sort of temperature range something left in teh hold for say a 10 hour flight is likly to encounter ?

I was wondering what efect it would have on things like hard drives and batteries ?

[marlowe]

The one question i would like answered is where the heck are the arlines/airports getting these huge quantities of clear plastic bags from? If this was a security measure that was implemented ad hoc yesterday morning then where did they get them from in huge numbers? or did they have prior knowledge that this would be implemented and thus place orders in advance?this is a serious question as i cannot believe that they would have these items in the quantities that they are being distributed.

[SXB]

Marlowe
The placing of hand baggage in the hold will be part of a pre-planned alert system, all airports will be prepared for such an eventuality and part of that preparation will include having 100,000's of clear plastic bags on the premises.

[NG_Kaptain]

Does anybody know what sort of temperature range something left in teh hold for say a 10 hour flight is likly to encounter ?
I was wondering what efect it would have on things like hard drives and batteries ?
On the Airbus it is about the same as the cabin, about 23 deg C.

[BEagle]

If this business goes on much longer, airlines are going to start losing Business Class passengers in large numbers.....

How long before ties, belts, shoelaces are banned and the treatment of everyone like convicts reaches its obvious conclusion.

It seems only the UK is doing this; yesterday I was told (incorrectly) that I had to put everything in my hold luggage on a flight FDH-FRA; FRA-BHX. But on the FRA-BHX flight, I was the only mug with a little plastic bag.....

So far I've flown 54 flights this year; I need to take a laptop plus other business items such as a mobile phone with me on my flights. I also drive to the airport 99 km away and my car has an alarm/immobiliser. So currently I need to put my car keys in my luggage as well......

Airlines are going to have to come up with some better solutions than the extreme measures being inflicted on business travellers from the UK if they are to retain our custom - I am now looking at Eurotunnel instead.

[Final 3 Greens]

BEagle

Airlines are going to have to come up with some better solutions than the extreme measures being inflicted on business travellers from the UK if they are to retain our custom - I am now looking at Eurotunnel instead.

Whilst I completely agree that the present situation is untenable, is it really the airlines call?

Looks to me as if the terrorists have won.

It is now up to the authorities to restore some sense of normality very quickly, or the business air travel sector in the UK will be impacted severely.

I've just spent quite some time rebooking business flights to avoid connecting via the UK and I am sure I'm not the only one.

[pilotadamp]

Well, it's going to be known 'rich pickings' for dishonest ground crew in respect of planes arriving at destinations from the UK.:(

It's ok interviewing the infrequent holiday families departing from the UK with few high value poseessions in their hold luggage not objecting to the security measures, but NO accouncement on what is being done to protect business travellers' possessions ?

Come on airlines, you need to protect your profitable business travellers' too !!!

[SXB]

If this business goes on much longer, airlines are going to start losing Business Class passengers in large numbers....
I'm not sure that is true, afterall, if you need to travel from London to Munich then you don't really have much of choice other than to fly. The restrictions apply whichever airline you choose. If you're thinking about driving to such locations then the extra time taken would indicate that a couple of hours without your laptop in an airport is not a problem. Additionally, business class travellers have plenty of IT facilities in the airside lounges. The only occasion I would look at train travel would be if I was travelling from London to Paris or Brussels, Eurostar (the passenger service rather than Eurotunnel which is the car 'drive on' service) is already a viable alternative to those destinations.

Airlines are going to have to come up with some better solutions than the extreme measures being inflicted on business travellers from the UK if they are to retain our custom - I am now looking at Eurotunnel instead.
These restrictions have nothing to do with the airlines

[Final 3 Greens]

SXB

Have you any idea of how many premium pax connect via London?

They do have a choice.

And that's the problem, a very profitable slice of the pie will evaporate.

Do transfer passengers have to check their laptops in when passing through London?

I have no idea, but I am not going to find out the hard way, which is why I'm not booking connecting flights through London presently, having just rescheduled using FRA, FCO and ZRH.

Whilst this PR disaster is being broadcast all over the world, expect the same response from many, many, other premium pax.

[BEagle]

Yes, you would have to check in your latop, personal organiser, car keys with electric fob, mobile phone etc if you flew, say ZRH-LHR-USA.....

Eurostar/Eurotunnel to Brussels or Paris, then fly?

Airlines - you are going to have to come up with a solution very soon or you will lose your high revenue passnegers on European routes.

It's not so much the inconvenience of not being able to use the laptop etc in flight - it's the risk of their loss or damage in hold baggage. Many business travellers also have sensitive commercial documents with them which they are unlikely to wish to lose sight of.

Europe doesn't have these restrictions (except to the US) - it's only the UK.

[Final 3 Greens]

BEags

t's not so much the inconvenience of not being able to use the laptop etc in flight - it's the risk of their loss or damage in hold baggage. Many business travellers also have sensitive commercial documents with them which they are unlikely to wish to lose sight of.

It's both for me. I also do quite a bit of work in flight, dealing with emails (for transmission on arrival), expenses, quite often reviewing materials etc, occasionally doing some billable work.

I probably average 1 hour per flight (most of my flights are 2-3 hours duration.)

Multiply that up by 80 flights per year (I probably do more than this) and I've just lost 2 working weeks.

That is many thousands of pounds of lost billing opportunities, as the work has to be done sometime and doing it on the ground eats into potential billable hours (I am a freelance consultant.)

[BEagle]

I am in a similar position - yesterday I was unable to work from 1445 until 2230 because everything I needed had to be put in my hold luggage.... Normally I would have managed 5 hours paid work in that time.

Next time I'll probably drive to Lake Constance and back, since the company pays for travel.

54 flights so far this year - thnigs must change soon or there simply won't be any UK airports..... I wonder what the total loss of business in the airside UK duty free shops has been over the last few days?

[Bumz_Rush]

The main thrust of most TV news and Business TV progs in the last few days, is the loss of business to UK PLC.
By continued enforcement of the "carry ons" via UK airport, there will be a reluctance for transit pax to use the UK.

I already hate travelling to the USA, and try to avoid recurrents there, yes I still have the problems getting DOJ approval to train on the same aircraft as my JAA brothers.

The sim centers in the Middle East can train as well as those in USA, with out the pre clearance problems . This applies to westerns as well as arabs.

Back to the point; the UK will suffer if these carry on restrictions are continued for much longer.

Lastly this is the kick in the pants needed for the VLJ market, if the existing air taxi operators dont see the oportunity to expand then they are very short sighted.

Bumz

[manintheback]

If this business goes on much longer, airlines are going to start losing Business Class passengers in large numbers...

And to underline - the two companies I have work through. Every single day trip has been cancelled till further notice. Thats around 30 Biz class short hauls A DAY. Without access to the needs of computers and mobiles its over for that sort of trip.

Long haul, all US flights now cancelled till further notice. (One of those companies is about as big as it gets in terms of passengers it puts at the front end on planes). I have personally cancelled plans for two US long hauls, and will not make any US trips whilst unable to take any baggage on board. And the holiday with my young daughter - if they dont sort this out soon, then its the UK or Norther Europe by train/car.

Believe me, Airlines are getting hammered from Biz class cancellations and will continue to get hammered. Someone has to come up with the answer.

[SXB]

Final3Greens
SXB

Have you any idea of how many premium pax connect via London?

They do have a choice.
Yes, I'm well aware of that but there isn't a lot the airlines can do about.

One of the primary aims of terrorism is to cause massive financial damage to the economies of its target countries. This is what is going to happen in the UK. Those of you who are cancelling or changing flights to avoid the UK are behaving in exactly the way the terrorists had hoped.

I'm booked on BA to go FRA-LHT-JFK in a few weeks and I have no intention of changing my itinary. If this means being without my laptop and blackberry for a few hours then so be it.

In anycase, I don't believe that the current restrictions are going to be in place on a long term basis.

[Avman]

The answer must be what the Americans did (seems they got it right for once) and simply ban liquids/creams/gels etc. I think we can all live with that. But in my hand baggage I carry a camera, lenses and film. I don't want to risk having the equipment nicked and the film ruined. Nor do I want my personal security further compromised by not being in possesion of my house and car keys at all times! LHR isn't called Thiefrow for nothing. It must be Utopia for the criminal element among the baggage handlers at the moment.

[Final 3 Greens]

The answer must be what the Americans did (seems they got it right for once) and simply ban liquids/creams/gels etc. I think we can all live with that.

I can.

[fyrefli]

Final3Greens

Yes, I'm well aware of that but there isn't a lot the airlines can do about.

One of the primary aims of terrorism is to cause massive financial damage to the economies of its target countries. This is what is going to happen in the UK. Those of you who are cancelling or changing flights to avoid the UK are behaving in exactly the way the terrorists had hoped.

Some of us have no legal choice in the matter, i.e. we cannot legally allow our laptops or memory devices out of our control.

Cheers,

Rich.

[ExSimGuy]

It's not that I can't let my lappy out of my control, but I have several thousand quid's worth of electronics that I must take with me when on holiday (lappy, PDA-phone, etc) as I am often needed to carry on my work when I am away.

Who pays for the replacements if things are "lost" frommy bags while I am not carrying them? Not the airlines ("we tell everyone not to check valuables") Not the insurance companies ("checkng valuables is stoopidand we won't cover your stooopidity") Not the British Government ("we aren't responsible for anything)

I know it's not the airlines' fault, but something has to be done to privide secure transport for the professionals' equipment when they are flying - or they will stop flying whenever possible (at least, where it involves using British airports).

I have a flight UK-USA planned for 2 minths from now and I am wondering how to be sure that my equipment is safe, as well as all of the data on the computer (prices lists, correspondance records etc) that I may need while I am in the USA.

[Final 3 Greens]

Those of you who are cancelling or changing flights to avoid the UK are behaving in exactly the way the terrorists had hoped.

You may be right, but I am not a UK resident and do not run a UK business.

Therefore it is up to the UK authorities to sort out their mess, confound the terrorists and then I'll start contributing money via airport taxes and airline ticket costs.

Until then, I'll do what I need to do to protect my business.

[SXB]

ExSimGuy
It isn't actually so to say that an insurance company will not cover expensive items which are stored in the hold.

When I travel everything which I own, whether it's carried on my person or on in the hold is covered by an insurance policy taken out by my employer. This insurance covers theft, loss or injury from the moment my trip starts to the moment it ends. I've only used it once when BA lost my bag , permanently. BA paid out about €600 and the insurance company made up the claim to €3000 which was the true value of the items lost, some of the items were of a reasonably high value, like a €700 digital camera. That said my IT items are not covered by the policy because they are owned by my employer but if they were mine they'd be covered, apparently.

Our insurance company is Chubb, who are based in London I believe. I've no idea how expensive that kind of policy actually is, it also covers our repatriation and risk insurance so I suppose it's expensive and has probably been written for us.

Laptops do get lost or stolen, I've 'lost' 3 in the last 5 years All of my data is backed up and I can always borrow one from our local office when I reach my destination, plus it's not mine so it's no big deal. I've also lost countless mobile phones, the most inconvenient thing being the loss of my contact list, which I also backup nowadays.

[MarcJF]

My employer has also cancelled all but critical air travel. That's hundreds of Biz class flights a week. Yes a solution needs to be found, and quickly. but there'a also another knock on effect, and that is that people relalise just how much can be done by video conference etc. Getting these people back in the air may prove to be a struggle.

[Oh that's super!]

Let's face it, with current or even previous security arrangements, air travel has become a pain in the backside. I would sooner not fly for work, but do everything by phone, email, video conferencing etc. So once people get the taste of not flying, and once beancounters realise the benefit of not flying people around, air travel for business will not come back to the level it previously was.

[EastMids]

SXB, as far as laptops are concerned its not always so much the loss of the physical device or even the consequental loss of use (both of which can often be overcome, although not always easily with appropriate resources). It is often the risk of loss of commercial or confidential data on laptops and in physical documents with which people have to travel, and the "inbuilt" access laptops often have to other systems, that is a challenge. No insurance will deal with those things. The company I work for isn't doing any UK domestic air travel anymore, and some folks next week are doing Eurostar/Air France to get to the USA - that's BA/BDs loss and as indicated here its not an isolated case. These rules WILL f**k up the UK airline industry very quickly.

Andy

[spikeair]

There's been a lot of mention about laptops, biut what about cameras. Although not a professional, my holidays are geared towards photography, and I use film cameras rather digital. I'm certianly not keen on putting gear in the hold for a couple of reasons, ie it might be stolen or broken and if that happens on the way out, the even if you have insurance, the trip is thne wasted. But more importantly, film cannot be put in the hold as the xrays will damage it. You might as well throw it in the bin. An not every country has film that you can get hold of when you arrive.
I've got a trip planned not too far away and I'm faced with 2 options, eitehr cancel it - wic means that terrorists have won or go and but a digital camera to replace my film equivalent - this will set me back about £4000 to do and this on top of paying £3500 for my holiday is not good. It would still mena putting that gear in the hold......

[EastMids]

spikeair, when I am not travelling on business, I face the same dilemma. I am travelling in four weeks or so and unless the rules change I am cancelling the trip - I have a refundable business class ticket which will be the airline's loss, not mine. There is no way I am checking over £5000 worth of camera equipment in because loss or damage defeats the entire purpose of the trip.

This is starting to hurt airlines for both camera equipment and laptops, and it might just be up to the airlines to apply commercial pressure to align the UK with the rest of the world where electronic equipment is still allowed to be carried on - well done Willie Walsh for already hitting back. After all, if the restrictions are only one way (which they are - ex UK) what's the point - is the government really saying that they want to make it safe to travel out of the UK but its OK for us get blown up on the way back???

Andy

[PAXboy]

MarcJF... people realise just how much can be done by video conference etc. Getting these people back in the air may prove to be a struggle.I don't think that it will be difficult in any way. Before I give my reasons; I have spent 27 years in telecommunications on the customer side. I have been providing facilties for overseas travel since before lap tops existed and when pager's were only just starting to be widely used in this country. Then I have been involved in buying audio and visual conference equipment across some 20 years.


There is only just so much that you can do by A/V conf. If you have established a working relationship with the distant party - then you can move business along. But if you are starting to talk to people for the first time, then you have no choice but to meet face to face, irrespective of whether you are buying or selling.

Humans rely on far more signals and feedbacks than can be accomplished in even full motion broadcast quality video - for v/c conf, it just does not cut it. It can be used to maintain a business relationship but not to intiate or develop it.

People LOVE international business travel. They say that it is a drag but many folks only get to do it once or twice a year and they LOVE it. It is a badge of office and a change to their usual schedule. Not to mention that some see it as the best opportunity to be legally away from their spouse, so that they can behave in ways that would otherwise be impossible.

Frequent Flyer Schemes.


Whatever happens in the short term - in the long term they wil be back. True, some of the local stuff might go to VLJs as Bumz suggests but the long haul is always here. Until ... there is the next worldwide depression and then it is but one of the countless problems.

[Boss Raptor]

Amazing is'nt it - for 4 years it's been no electrical goods in hold luggage as I understood they dont consider they can be adequately identified/scanned so they go in hand luggage for closer examination as reqd...then overnight apparently completely the opposite!? It's perfectly OK and the better screening option??!!

Yawn...usual over reaction...just awaiting the 'justification' to increase the so called Security Tax/levy which it seems has just been going to bolster the airport operators revenues...

Laughs/chuckles/smiles insincerely ;)

[SXB]

Posted by PaxBoy

Not to mention that some see it as the best opportunity to be legally away from their spouse, so that they can behave in ways that would otherwise be impossible.
Oh no ! Looks like we've been rumbled :eek:

[PAXboy]

Does anyone know if laptop bags are being tagged Fragile? I plan to put such lables on my 'cabin' bag for this week's TXL trip. But I am doubtful that the overworked staff will be able to respond to anything other than the 'need for speed'.

[Bumz_Rush]

In my experience any fragile tag will attract attention.

However it might assist in the insurance claim.

I am considering a tamper alarm, that sets off a high pitched alarm, if "carry on bag" is interfered with....maplins and other sell them...

Bumz

[Guern]

As it stands at the moment this is being enforced on flights between the Channel Islands so if I want to take my laptop to Jersey from Guernsey on a 15 minute Trislander flight I have to put it in hold baggage! Ridiculous!

[Carry0nLuggage]

Does anyone know to what extent these rules extend to aircraft chartered by companies specifically for their employees? The amount of time wasted in airports to fly scheduled services is bad enough without adding an increased risk of losing company data in laptops left in the care of baggage handlers. Biz jets are starting to look attractive once more.
As for luggage which is required by law to remain with me at all times, I'm so glad I don't have to do those journeys anymore.

[derekl]

All security is a trade-off between safety, cost and convenience in the sense of what can be tolerated. In other words, there is an acceptable level of risk that people are prepared to tolerate before the precautions themselves become intolerable.

It seems to me that we have reached the crossover point with the current restrictions on cabin luggage.

The key points revolve around electronic equipment, in particular laptops, mobile phones, PDAs. (Was it really only early last week that a furious debate was going on about the wisdom of allowing/facilitating the in-flight use of mobile phones?)

The simple fact is that business passengers in the 21st century expect to be able to take their laptop into the departure lounge and continue working in a relaxed atmosphere to kill those two hours of "security required" check-in time. They expect the airline to get both their person and their laptop to their destination undamaged. They might like to work on the plane, so they might reasonably expect to take their laptop with them, which also means at least the damage/loss criterion is their own responsibility.

Are we really saying that this is impossible to arrange?

If that is, indeed, what we are saying, then commercial air travel, supported by the premium business passenger, is doomed, at least with its current economic model.

[dustybin]

Sorry i could only read about 1 page of your moaning about laptops and blaming airlines, GET A HOLD OF YOURSELVES FOR GOD SAKE. Ok your pi$$ed off that you can't take you laptops, mobiles, mp3 bah,bah! We are talking about human lives, i work as crew and have loads of thing taken from me just the same as passengers but i don't give a ****, cause if it means i get home and get to spend another night with my partner then so be it. How would you fell if after all your moaning to airlines about not taking your laptops onboard, another 9/11 happened. I bet you wouldn't give 2 **** about you laptop cause you or someone you know would be afftected by the actions of some idiot. Please have a good think about things and the present situation of the world and think what comes first, your family or you laptop ( which you will only part company for a few hours) I know what i would pick. As to date every passenger i have had has been very understanding and even joking about bussinessmen with holly socks. Pleeeeeese think about your safty and your family:(

[TightSlot]

I think we have got as far as we can get here, and with the change of rules on hand-baggage announced this morning, it is time to close this thread.

A new thread has been started by BEagle, SECURITY - Revised Uk Rules (14 Aug 2006) (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=238932) and I've made it stick to the forum top for a while: Please continue your discussions there.