Could all Pilots be Navs?!

[Vasco Sodcat]

Did anyone else see the UKTV documentary about the BOAC Hermes lost in the Western Sahara last night?

We've always known that not all Navs can be Pilots, but it appears that not all Pilots could be Navs, contrary to what some of you think!

(Donning tin hat, and TFIC!!!) :ok:

[reallydeskbound]

Yes, and have to be!

[Champagne Anyone?]

Theres not room for one in my current steed! :E

[Tombstone]

There are GR4 pilots who are qualified to do the navs job up at XV Sqn. It allows them to train pilots from the back seat during the weapons phase of the course.

Navigating is a fundamental skill that all pilots must possess, any pilot who cannot read a map should be taken outside and shot or, re branched as an FC. Not sure which is worse!;)

[goatmanni]

If thats the case, how come at OASC you can be selected as pilot even if you fail the nav tests? I know someone who is a chopped pilot but didn't have the aptitiude to be reselected as nav? How does that work?

[Wader2]

Goatmanni,

There is navigation and there is fighting the weapons system. All pilots can navigater but some are better than others at fighting the weapons system.

Your friend had demonstrated a lack of ability in some area which probably reflected on his abilities for navigation too. Many u/t pilots are remustered to WSO and their pilot training is usually very useful especially for SA.

[reallydeskbound]

If thats the case, how come at OASC you can be selected as pilot even if you fail the nav tests? I know someone who is a chopped pilot but didn't have the aptitiude to be reselected as nav? How does that work?
Its all down to numbers dear boy! The requirements for navs is quite small these days with the reduction in the number of 2-seat fast jets, thus if they have all they need from those that are recruited direct to nav training they are not going to bump one of them off a course just to make room for a failed pilot. Additonally what part of training did he fail? Could it have been low-level nav? A GIB needs to have good appitude in nav skills to sit in a fast jet at low level as well as capacity to take in situational awareness, fight an ECM battle and control a formation (yes navs can lead from the rear) thus if your mate was chopped at ME training then the possibility of him re-roling as a nav will be slim considering he was probably assessed during his previous training as having sufficient skills for a multi-crew environment but not for the fast jet role.

[kippermate]

Don't you have to be lobotomised?

(take cover!)

Kipper

:ok:

[navibrator]

Let's not get too stove-piped here.

Of coure, pilots can navigate an aircraft. Otherwise, how will single seat cope! The advantage of having a 2 seat ac is the workload that can be taken on by the crew.

The argument is often whether 2 seat is better than 1 seat. It depends on the ac, the avionics, the task and, what is often forgotten the task that the ac was never designed to fulfill!

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

...navigator perhaps, but could they be a radio operator or even a rear gunner?

[Tombstone]

Radio operator... No brainer.

Rear gunner... Nope, my AA gunnery skills are erm, average...

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Why I ask myself would ANY pilot want to be a Nav, I mean what a backward step it would be................simply barking idea:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[brit bus driver]

Let's not get too stove-piped here
Cylinder of excellence, surely?
Oh, and I've never got lost in 20 years (well, never majorly - trg fix, trg fix, trg fix...) and have never had the pleasure of a nav....no, not even in that sense!

[Pontius Navigator]

Cylinder of excellence, surely?
Oh, and I've never got lost in 20 years (well, never majorly - trg fix, trg fix, trg fix...) and have never had the pleasure of a nav....no, not even in that sense!

But without a Nav how did you know you were never lost.:}

Now Navs are never lost, merely temporarily uncertain of their position.

[BEagle]

Arse, elbows.....:confused: = navigator.

[saudipc-9]

I'm far too good looking to be a butt ugly navigator:p

[SASless]

Pilot revert to Nav.....might as well suggest a Loadmaster could find the aircraft without following the Engineer about.

[Impiger]

BEags you're talking out of your elbow again!:=

[Tombstone]

I once heard a story about an Argie FJ mate who, whilst being chased down by a SHAR during the skirmish of 82, seriously considered using his Nav's bang seat rocket plume as a decoy for any inbound AIM9s! :eek:

Pound for pound, I'd rather have the fuel! ;)

[rodthesod]

All pilots are navigators by virtue of training. However this pilot, for one could never be puking ballast :yuk: in the black hole of a Canberra/Vulcan etc. - that requires a special kind of masochism that I don't possess.

[Tombstone]

Having sat in the Nav's 'office' of a Canberra (on the ground), with the nose closed, I'll second that. Not a snow flakes chance in hell of anyone ever getting me to take off in those conditions. Fair play to those who did!

[Brain Potter]

Anyone had thoughts as to who is going to fill Air Eng seats in E-3s after the last of that trade retire (long before the aircraft).

Could pilots be Air Engs? as most US airlines used to do.

Could WSOps be Air Engs? as Victor AEOs wanted to do on the VC10.

Could Navs be Air Engs?

Or would it be better to train bright young groundcrew lads/lasses to do this job. Full aircrew training plus an understanding of engineering from their previous trade would equip them nicely for this specialized job. You could even give them a different brevet to denote their skills. How about one similar to the WSOp but with - lets say an "E" for engineer in the centre. On second thoughts - nah it'll never work.

Tombstone - don't think the argies had any FJs with Navs except Canberras with no rocket seat. Might have been a Pucara?

[Tombstone]

Tombstone - don't think the argies had any FJs with Navs except Canberras with no rocket seat. Might have been a Pucara?

Perhaps it was a Pucara, if indeed the story is true!

The term fast jet was relative to what was in theatre at the time and when comparing a/c speeds to that of the SHAR, everything was considered fast! ;)

[orca]

Just to disappear down this tangent.....

Why would a 9L follow an ejectee, given the signature of the seat and its trajectory? Why/how would a front seater be able to command eject the rear chap without himself being ejected? Why would a pucara have a navigator? Tomba didn't when he was splashed and neither did his wing man..and if it wasn't a macchi or a pucara then it wasn't a twin seat argie aircraft in the Falklands.

Which all adds up to the entire episode being hoop, if you ask me...which i notice you didn't but thought i'd pitch in nonetheless.

Incidentally, hats off to those Canberra navs, but give a thought to Sea Vixen observers - no way you'd have caught me doing that!

[chuks]

I read with interest a book about operating a B-24 during the Late Great Hate. (It was writtten by George McGovern, spectularly failed Presidential candidate, actually. He was a B-24 pilot during WWII when he got shot at too plenty. He lost the election to a guy who sat out the war on a rock in the Pacific playing poker.) There it was set down in black and white that the brainiest candidates were selected for Navigator with the less-bright being chosen as Pilots.

On the other hand, all the ex-Strategic Air Command guys I flew with were uniformly scathing in their opinions of Navigators. Perhaps one could put that down to jealousy.

[Tombstone]

Perhaps it was a Pucara, if indeed the story is true!

ORCA,

Like I said, if it were true. Nonetheless, the thought of a Nav finding himself looking down on his a/c with a AIM9L coming up to say hi, whilst his ex pilot heads back for a tequila made me giggle.

[Brain Potter]

A former colleague, now sadly departed, twice jettisoned a Sea Vixen from the observer's "coal hole". I believe the second was sub-surface from a bad catapult shot. I think he gave up FJs after that.

[Fox2long]

I know of at least 1 now harrier pilot who was a chopped Tonka nav? How do you explain that with all the rather have the fuel piffle??

[Farrell]

Where's BigGrecian when you need him? :ok:

[Tombstone]

I know of at least 1 now harrier pilot who was a chopped Tonka nav? How do you explain that with all the rather have the fuel piffle??

Perhaps none of his FJ nav mates were willing to fly with him!

On a serious note, I think that shows the limitations of OASC selection. People do slip through the net at great expense. Your colleague has had a great deal of money spent on him when, if selected properly the first time round, he could have gone straight into pilot training. He sounds like a good operator with plenty of mud moving experience!

An F3 mate of mine did a front seat conversion a few years back & is probably one hell of an operator as a result of his back seat knowledge.

[Pontius Navigator]

An F3 mate of mine did a front seat conversion a few years back & is probably one hell of an operator as a result of his back seat knowledge.

Complete with MDC splatter?

[Tombstone]

He's ugly, but I wouldn't blame that on any MDC he's been next to when it's gone bang! :E

[brickhistory]

"A Few Good Navs"

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/beauhistory/752b5de3.jpg

You want the truth, pilot? You can't handle the truth!

Son, we live in a world that has mountains, and those mountains have to be found by Navs with APN-59s. Who's gonna do it?

You? You, Major Stick Monkey?
We have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for
a color copied chart and a decent box lunch, and you curse the Navs. You
have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what we know—that
a modified contour, while tragic, probably suppresses detection; and my
existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, dominates the
electromagnetic spectrum. You don't want the truth because deep down in
places you don't talk about at parties, you want me in that radar—you
need me in that radar. We use words like "peanut," "cut," “ banana left”
and "painting black." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent
frustrating the enemy. You use them as a punch line.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who flies and fights under the blanket of recommended altitudes that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather that you just said "thank you" and fly SCNS centerline. Otherwise, I suggest you take
the next J-model assignment that comes around. Either way, I don't give
a damn what you think you’re entitled to fly.

[Tombstone]

HEY! I'm a Barrier Operator and an acting corporal in the Royal Air Force and you're under arrest, you son of a bitch!

Sorry, wrong thread.

Quality post Brick History, I might even have to print that out and take it into work for the Navs to read. Have you got any with big pictures & small words?;)

[brickhistory]

Tomb,

I can send it as a pdf or you can google "A few good navs" and get it.

Cheers,

brick

[OCCWMF]

Unlikely. Evolution works forwards, not backwards. Except in Cornwall.:E

[ch135146]

Yes, but a bilateral orchiectomy would be prerequisite.

[ORAC]

Could all Pilots be Navs?! Of course they could - monkey see, monkey do...... :hmm: