Value for money ?

[OldRookie]

:confused:Just a quick question for all you instructor types. I have been looking around the web for PPL (H) training packs. You know the ones , all the books , log book , snazy case etc.. Do you think that they are value for money and include everything you need ? they range in price from £200 to £300 depending on the exact content. I found one on flightstore for for £230 that includes a bit of software any thoughts would be appreciated

I would post the link but not sure if its against the rules

Its the helicopter ppl plus pack

thanks in advance

[GoodGrief]

Just check what's in the case, then browse the internet for the price of every single item and see to how much it adds up to. Compare prices and buy accordingly.

[kissmysquirrel]

Some can be value for money but personally, i'd spend a couple of hours on ebay and get everything cheap. The packs can work out cheaper than buying everything new separately but again, do you need everything in the pack? Check thepack contents and price it all up. Save money wherever you can as you'll need it to make up for what you didn't budget for. ie, more hours!!!

[Cron]

Not sure this will be much help but it is an alternative method of acquisition (excepting log book).

When I started my PPL(H) a little bird suggested I contact a recent PPL graduate who had no further use for the 'kit' (Books, Dalton, etc).

I contacted said person just 2 days too late - someone got in before me and got the lot for free.

However I did get a free flight bag - and this is how: The only 'flight bag' I could afford was an old, tatty, smelly leather briefcase that I found at my place of work. It did not look the part amongst the smart kit sported by my fellow students.

Now, the School bought piles of stuff from suppliers to sell on to students. The school got the same deals as any other buyer 'buy this and this and this and get a free flight bag'. They got free flight bags, so eventually they gave me a free flight bag partly out of pitty but mostly because I was lowering the tone.

Good school though.

[Phororhacos]

I turned up at my Heli Flight school with my stuff in an old carrier bag, (Sainsbury's I think, not even Transair) and was also given a brand new flight bag with the school logo to avoid "lowering the tone." :)
Since then I've turned up in increasingly scruffy clothes (and increasingly scruffy cars), hoping for further charitable gifts but to no avail. :(

[OldRookie]

Thanks for all your advice, Im just off to the late shop for a good carrier bag....

[Gerhardt]

Talk with your CFI and he'll tell you exactly what you need to buy. Tell him you don't need any extra bells and whistles. If it's not on his list chances are good that you don't need it for your training.

[paco]

Without wishing to sound too cynical, compare computer starter packs - you get a pile of crap that they can't otherwise shift and that nobody wants. The same principles apply. I used to use an executive plastic bag, with H A Rods on the side.

Get the stuff you really want and you won't throw away after the exams. Buying good stuff helps with your results. I can recommend the AFE ARC 2 flight computer as a vastly superior instrument than the CR*P 5.......

Phil

[Flying Lawyer]

Surely the most economical way is to buy from someone who's finished training and no longer needs the books, course notes, kit etc - mutual benefit to both buyer and seller.

At university, we saved money by selling our books to the year following and buying them from the year ahead. Law books are very expensive and we needed lots of them so we saved a lot of money.
The going rate was about half the retail price depending upon condition. Be wary of buying books that are heavily marked by previous owners because it can be very distracting.

PPRuNe doesn't allow free ads but there mus be other ways. eg Flying school notice board? Asking instructors for introductions to students who've just finished or are about to finish training?


Some people on the forums get rather excited about copyright and others aren't bothered. Personal decision.

[Pandalet]

I would advise against buying the 'all-in-one' packs, mainly because there's a load of completely unnecessary junk in there.

Firstly, you're going to need a load of the Thom books - WH Smith does them for around 30% less than RRP, and they'll deliver them to your local branch for free.

Aside from the Thom books, you may require some other books (such as 'Principles of flight' by Wagtendonk, or the human factors one by Green et el) - Amazon is a pretty good source for these, as you know exactly what you're buying; definately check out the 'used and new' sections. Be a little careful of buying books of fleabay, as there are a surprising numbe of (very) out-of-date books on there, and most sellers just stick a blurry pic up with the title - would you want to be learning for your air law exam from the edition that came out 4 years ago?

Don't bother buying the Thom radiotelephony book; everything you need to know is in CAP413 which can be downloaded free from the CAA - http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF

Fleabay is an excellent source of flight computers, whether you need a crap-1 or a crap-5. Pooley's will happily replace a missing manual (assuming your ebay one didn't have one) for free. Just make sure, when buying off auction sites, that the thingy you're buying is actually in decent working condition. Also, you may come across computers made by Airtour, which look a lot like the Pooley's ones - they're actually made by the same people, but they're quite old (Pooley's used to be called Airtour, apparently). In my experience, the Airtour ones work just fine. If you're planning on internet auctions for bits, plan ahead and allow some time to actually get what you need - these things tend to go in waves, where a (second-hand) CRP-1 will be going for £35 this week, but if you wait for a bit, you'll be able to get one for a tenner next week. Note the new prices (http://www.pooleys.com/prod_list.cfm?product_category_id=21&product_sub_category_id=118&menuHold=23 for example), then decide what the maximum you're prepared to pay for a second-hand one is.

You will need a protractor (square or round), a nm-calibrated ruler, and some charts. The charts should be bought from somewhere decent (eg. Transair), but you really only need a 1:500000 and a 1:250000 (and you can probably manage without the quarter-mil one) for your area, and they only cost around £14 each. The plastic bits can be gotten from fleabay from time to time, but again, you can get both from a shop for around £15. You'll also need some 'drawing on charts' pens - I suggest taking a trip down to your local Staples or other office shop and picking up a pack of super-fine permanant pens. The ones you want are often advertised as CD/DVD pens - you can get a pack of 4 in different colours for around a fiver. You'll also need a white board dry-erase pen (any size / colour you like) for removing markings from your charts once you're done with them. If you'd like to know more about temporary vs. permanant pens, just yell.

It might also be worth joining your local library. Most libraries have a book-ordering facility for books they don't have in stock, where they'll buy in the book of your choice for a few pounds - you're probably not going to read most of these books more than once anyway, so you might as well borrow them from a library.

If you're friendly with another student doing a PPL(H) (or PPL(A), come to that), you might consider sharing the book-buying burden: if you each buy half the books, then work out your exam schedule around each other, you should be able to share books. Most instructors / schools seem perfectly happy to let you write the exams in whatever order, but be aware that you need to have passed the navigation and (I think) RT theory exams before you'll be allowed to go very far from the aerodrome on your own.

Another thing to be aware of with the 'all in one' packs is that they're often designed for PPL(A) students. Most (reputable) retails will have a PPL(H) version as well, but there are some dodgy dealers out there on the wild wild web. As a helicopter student, you have very little use for book 1 in the Thom series, but the Bailey book would be quite useful.

In my opinion, R22s are too small to fit two people AND a knee-board into, so don't bother with one. A carefully-folded chart held with giant paper-clips (your local stationary / office supply shop again) will sit across your lap quite happily. Flight bags can be gotten quite cheaply from market or discount luggage shops - look for the large laptop-type bags - assuming you don't already have something suitable lying around the house.

As far as the training software goes, while it could be useful, it's completely not necessary. Everything you need to know (including self-test questions) are in the books - you just provide time and discipline. I personally would have been fairly miffed if I'd shelled out for the software, but on the basis that different people learn in different ways, you may find it way more useful than I would. Mostly, it consists of practice questions in exam format for the various papers, with some packages having graphical illustrations for the various concepts etc. - your milage may vary!

On a semi-related note, when budgeting for your PPL, remember that in addition to the 50-or-so flight hours, you also have to write 7 ground exams (around £20 - £30 per paper per attempt, depending on school), you will need a flight test (£600 - £700 ish?), plus any time you land away from base (think solo cross-country etc.), there will be a landing fee (up to £25ish, assuming you're not landing at Heathrow or Battersea or something). Plus the costs of study materials, obviously. When compared to the flight costs, these all pale into insignificance, but they can come as a nasty shock to your financial planning if you're not expecting them. Also, be aware that flight schools may increase the per-hour cost of using their aircraft half way through your course (due to rising fuel costs, for example); I know of at least one flight school that demanded that students who had pre-payed a block of 45 hours pay a fuel surcharge on their remaining hours (which may be illegal). Allow some emergency leeway in your costs planning!

Of course, if you have cash to burn, the pre-packed PPL(H) student sets do give you everything you need (plus extras), so if you can't be arsed to hunt around for bargains, they do provide a convenient way to buy.

All of this is based on my own, limited experience - I'm 31.5 hours into my PPL(H) at the time of writing, so some or all of this may not hold true for you. If you're prepared to spend some effort, you can save a metric assload of cash, and extra cash means more flying time. Which is good :ok:

[170']

I think there's a big temptation when going thru flight school. To go out and buy a big watch and sunglasses, and a whole bunch of pilot type gear...

Most of it is superbly marketed, and between us and the marketers, it's not too hard to be convinced that you're depriving yourself of a very necessary widget. And that a specific manual,hold entry widget,watch,or that special jacket with the pen holder in an ergonomically designed position, will really make a difference to your flying, studies etc...

After recently going thru an FAA to JAA conversion...I'm still bleeding from the financial beating I took, not just the biggies, but all the little extra's that come up...

I really suggest to any student at any level, to try to economise in every possible way. It's going to cost you every dime you've got, plus some, just to get thru whatever you're trying to get thru...

So second hand books and gear make a lot of sense, maybe an IT type could build a swap meet/ exchange/mart type website, just for this purpose...maybe sell on second hand helmets/headsets etc...

I fell for the trap myself with the cr*p 5 as Paco calls it...Finally gave it to a co-joe a few weeks ago, actually I swapped it for a cardboard deal he was packing around and using for the on-going ATPL writtens.

I took the cardboard deal, so that the next time I meet a fully equipped pilot, I can nonchalantly (and accidently) expose my cardboard whizzwheel while looking thru my helmet bag for an imaginary widget :8

Proving that I too am a professional, and carry the required widgets at all times.....

Gary, I'm working on the sarcasm, honest injun! :E

170

[Whirlygig]

There are a number of ways to save money in this game (and any further suggestions from anyone else will always be appreciated by many I suspect!) but one of the main things is not to fall into the trap of buying everything from an aviation supplier. Just need to think; is there anything else on the market that would do the job.

For example; stop watches. Aviation suppliers have these Russian, mechanical, old-fashioned stop watches with a clip for your kneeboard costing around £40. You can buy a digital stopwatch from a sports shop for less than a tenner!

Another one; as someone who gets hot sweaty little paws, I prefer to wear gloves when I’m flying. White RAF type leather jobbies are pushing £30 a pair. I use golf gloves – small sizes for ladies, leather, £8-£10 each. That’s each because you buy them singly. I really only need one for the left hand! In winter, I use riding gloves, £6 from the local saddlers. Jodhpur boots from same saddlers (leather, rubber sole and good grip) are £25 a pair and excellent for flying.

And as for bags? I worked in a business where suppliers were always giving away free bags; I currently use a laptop case (freebie from a construction company!) whilst my instructor turns up with his lunch and papers in an Asda carrier bag (sometimes Waitrose if he wants to make a good impression!). Go to any trade show (not just aviation) and you can blag yourself a bag easily enough!

Just putting my accountant’s hat for a moment; you may find it better for your cash flow to buy things piece meal as and when you need them rather than stump up cash in front as a lump sum. Not just interest lost but opportunity cost of having spent those funds elsewhere.

The helicopter specific packs tend to include the books by Norman Bailey; personally I found Foucault’s Pendulum by Umberto Eco easier to read! Wagtendonk is yer man – most schools will recommend it and if it’s not included in the pack, then that would be an “extra” expenses rather than an “instead of” expense!

Cheers

Whirls

[OldRookie]

Yep you've sussed me out. I want to wear a flight suit with aviator glasses and a bloody big sports chronograph watch ooo and may be a WW II flying jacket. I want the new bag with every widget, i want everyone who see's me to know that i am a pilot. I want.....

But on a serious note thanks for the advice. I will be contacting those of you mentioning items for sale by the end of the week when i next get some cash. Is there an items for sale section on here ? im off to look

And a thanks to Pandalet for a very clear and informative post, very useful, particularly the caa link. As you have 30.5hr's more than me i will bow to your experience.