Benefits and training. Student status?

[BlueRobin]

The question is, "where do you stand with regard to UK employment law when you start the slippery ATPL path?"

Okay let's take my case

British
29, made redundant
no dependencies
no council tax
no mortgage
starting ATPLs soon full-time so availability work is not great

Do I need to register unemployment? Well technically yes but it seems the system now encourages you not to if you cannot work! You have to sign and see someone every 2 weeks. Income-assessed dole money? Not eligible due to in part that redundancy cheque.

What are your experiences and where do we legally stand within the system?

Anyway all I want is a UB40 type card to get discounts :E Doubt I shall get a student card from the FTO. Perhaps those studying ATPLs should have their own "branch" of the National Union of Students?

[planecrazy.eu]

Hey, i have Emailed NUS about this, i belive that the ATPL should be treated the same as CIMA and other Chartered courses are, would be nice to get some support in pushing this issue if they dont agree with my thinking.

The age limit on alot of discount cards for students is 26, but i am sure NUS doesnt have an upper age limit.

I have an NUS card at the moment, but if i went to do an ATPL i wouldnt, and i would miss it.

[BlueRobin]

Hey planecrazy, nice to know I am not likewise!

Well I think there should be some kind of union-esque support. Who else to turn to eh? BALPA? AOPA? They all charge. But on the other hand, perhaps better geared toward knowing aviation-related issues and so could have their own "student" arm.

No the NUS do not have an upper age limit - see mature students.

On that selfish front again, I should have taken life membership of my SU for £20 when I had a chance. Would have got a student card then :ugh: Didn't there use to me a ISHAC card or something?

[sicky]

Most unions have the cards available on the desk in reception when you walk in, either go in and take one or get a friend to ;)

[Lucifer]

What are your experiences and where do we legally stand within the system?
Not a chance as you are in a course of study.

Hey, i have Emailed NUS about this, i belive that the ATPL should be treated the same as CIMA and other Chartered courses are, would be nice to get some support in pushing this issue if they dont agree with my thinking
Those only exist at the institutes have set up schemes for people to be able to hold that card - there is no "right" of a student card when studying for anything that is not in a university/college - it depends on who has bothered to set up the scheme with the NUS - if there is not one, then set it up yourself!

Most unions have the cards available on the desk in reception when you walk in, either go in and take one or get a friend to
Nice - honest guv.

[planecrazy.eu]

I can grab a handfull at my current college too, i dont know what will come of it but when they email me back i will post it. I guess we are not entitled to an NUS card, but we should be, CIMA and CIM students get them if they study at work, home, college or uni and i would put the ATPL on a par with those courses. Could do what some one said above, set one up myself, i think a few more people would need to be interested in such a scheme for that to take-off, i dont think discount clubs, unions are hard to establish as such, but they need participants.

Is there discount schemes for pilots in the UK or the world even? I know alot of other industrys have discount schemes, like the nurses one, not all nurses work for the NHS or are employed by the NHS, there is private, etc. And they have a discount scheme, well locally they do as my partner is in it, and its not a staff discount thing as all nurses are entitled to it no matter who employs them.

I an surprised RAeS or AOPA or GAPAN or Etc, have not got some scheme in place. RAeS have a student wing i think too.

[Lucifer]

RAeS have a <30 young members' board, not a student wing.

[Whirlygig]

i belive that the ATPL should be treated the same as CIMA and other Chartered course
Chartered Accountant trainees (and I believe it's the same for Chartered Management Accountants (CIMA)) do their training through employer sponsorship and hence are employed. I was never aware of any trainee getting student discount cards or NUS membership.

The ATPL is treated the same as ACA, CIMA, ACCA and other professional organisations in that they are classed as NVQ5 and hence grants are not available!

As for signing on unemployed? No, it would be fraudulent as you are not available for work. However, try to make sure that you have employment for the last week of the tax year in order to get your personal tax allowance instantly through PAYE rather than having to fill in a tax return!

Cheers

Whirls

[BlueRobin]

I need to see someone about the tax situation.

Not sure about your last week before end of tax year stunt?

I have earnt more than my £5k relief amount gross, but iirc monthly salary was deducted on the basis of taxable_income/12, so if I am unemployed still in April 2007, I would have overpaid my income tax (4 months income tax < relief amount)

Ahhhh I recall as a sprog student signing a P38(something) form declaring that "thou shall not work for the rest of the tax year" and so the rebate is issued. I shall go look on hmrc.gov.uk.

Can't hurt to get your money off HMRC! Now if only I got my SAYE back off of my ex-employer I shall be a happier man.

Valid food for thought for anyone coming out of a job and commencing flight training; you need every penny.

Now if the tax man paid for your training, heh I'll stop there ;)

[BlueRobin]

From http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/faqs/general.htm:

If you are an employee on PAYE:

What should I do if I leave my job?

It is important to get a form P45 from your employer. If you don't go to another job and don't start claiming unemployment benefit, you may be entitled to a tax repayment. After a month, ask for a repayment claim form P50 (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pdfs/p50.pdf) which you should complete and return to your Tax Office with your P45 Parts 2 and 3 if you have them. We give repayment claims top priority and try to make sure you get any refund you are due within 28 days.

[Lucifer]

Chartered Accountant trainees (and I believe it's the same for Chartered Management Accountants (CIMA)) do their training through employer sponsorship and hence are employed. I was never aware of any trainee getting student discount cards or NUS membership.
As I said below, there are individual arrangement in place with some institutes such that their trainees obtain the NUS associate card.

You have to take the initiative to organise that (which would include some cost), as it is not something that you receive by right.

I have earnt more than my £5k relief amount gross, but iirc monthly salary was deducted on the basis of taxable_income/12, so if I am unemployed still in April 2007, I would have overpaid my income tax (4 months income tax < relief amount)

Your employer has cocked up, and you need to speak to your tax office, which is noted on your payslip, or end of year tax form (if you had a declaration signed with that employer stating that you were a student).

Alternatively, fill in a tax return (request one from the tax office).

SAYE back off of my ex-employer I shall be a happier man
Pension, or what?

[BlueRobin]

SAYE takes the form of a share scheme.

[girl friday]

"If you are an employee on PAYE:

What should I do if I leave my job?

It is important to get a form P45 from your employer. If you don't go to another job and don't start claiming unemployment benefit, you may be entitled to a tax repayment. After a month, ask for a repayment claim form P50 (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pdfs/p50.pdf) which you should complete and return to your Tax Office with your P45 Parts 2 and 3 if you have them. We give repayment claims top priority and try to make sure you get any refund you are due within 28 days."

If it's any help to anyone, when i've been in this situation before i simply wrote a letter to my local tax office saying that i hadn't worked the full tax year and so wasn't sure whether i'd paid the correct tax, could they please take a look at it? didn't hear anything until i got the cheque in the post a few weeks later :ok: . in general the guys on the phones at the tax office have always been really helpful when i've spoken to them - give them a call!

girl friday

[chrisbl]

The ATPL is treated the same as ACA, CIMA, ACCA and other professional organisations in that they are classed as NVQ5 and hence grants are not available!

Whirls

The ATPL is nowhere near the same level as ACA, CIMA etc. For a start chartered qualifications require a degree level education to start the training.

At the end of the day, ATPL is a bog standard vocational qualification at about level 3 if you are lucky. Its an expensive bog standard level, no doubting that.

Chartered qualifications include the various engineering disciplines and I remember and instructor at Oxford commenting that ATPL was nowhere near being an engineer.

Engineers design and build planes, pilots bend them.

[balhambob]

I did ACA and you need to have a way better standard of maths than GCSE (which is all you need for ATPL's)

Also I got an associate NUS card if anyone cares - this is because the Institute (ICAEW) has an agreement with the NUS

[Whirlygig]

The ATPL is nowhere near the same level as ACA, CIMA etc. For a start chartered qualifications require a degree level education to start the training.
You don't say! :rolleyes: All I said was that it was classed as NVQ5 which means that it doesn't have the same tax relief status and grant funding as other NVQs 1-4. As for difficulty? Depends on your aptitude. I found Chartered Accountancy to be maximum income for minimum effort; my professional aviation exams I find harder; might be something to do with being another 15 years older or that aviation/met/nav/ engineering etc are not as structured as I am used to. Oddly, I find Aviation Law one of the easier subjects!

However, there are no end of posts on here suggesting that, if given the opportunity, a potential ATPL student should do a degree as well. Strictly the entry into Chartered does NOT require a degree but that for competition for jobs, it's best to have one.

Also I got an associate NUS card if anyone cares - this is because the Institute (ICAEW) has an agreement with the NUS

Didn't in my day! Got the square root of diddly-squat!

Cheers

Whirls

[Jerry Springer]

Anyone enrolled for the dole and housing benefits whilst doing full time ground school? Would it be possible, if not, why not?

[Whirlygig]

Strictly, it's not allowed (assuming you are UK based). You are supposed to be available for work and, if you're studying, you're not available. If you get caught or someone dobs you in, the penalties are severe.

However, you may qualify for income support as a student which would qualify for you for housing and council tax benefit but Job Seeker's Allowance is a no-no.

If you want to be above board, then ask at your local Citizens' Advice Bureau and will help you with your entitlement.

Cheers

Whirls

[JediDude]

Hey Folks,

I'm hoping to start an integrated course at Cabair next year and would be intending on moving into rented property in Bedford along with my wife and child.

Can I assume that we would both be able to claim all the usual unemployment benefits from the government? Can I further assume that because we would both be unemployed that we would be able to claim for housing benefit to pay for our rent?

I guess what I really want to know is if anybody else has been in this situation and can shed some light on what exactly we would be able to claim from the government with regards to unemployment/housing/child benefits?

Thanks in advance

Chris

[wingbar]

Many a trainee pilot goblins have been on the dole, go for it!

I know of several who frequent this forum!

[Groundloop]

Hey Folks,
I'm hoping to start an integrated course at Cabair next year and would be intending on moving into rented property in Bedford along with my wife and child.
Can I assume that we would both be able to claim all the usual unemployment benefits from the government? Can I further assume that because we would both be unemployed that we would be able to claim for housing benefit to pay for our rent?


An integrated course is full-time education, therefore you will NOT be able to be classed as unemployed.

Well, it may not be regarded as normal full-time education but, to claim unemployment benefit you MUST be available for work if it is offered to you. What would you do then?

[Whirlygig]

Many a trainee pilot goblins have been on the dole, go for it!

I know of several who frequent this forum!
And I know someone who works for the Benefit Fraud Inspectorate who frequents these forums :} :D

Cheers

Whirls

[JediDude]

An integrated course is full-time education, therefore you will NOT be able to be classed as unemployed.
Well, it may not be regarded as normal full-time education but, to claim unemployment benefit you MUST be available for work if it is offered to you. What would you do then?

Ok, I get that. So, how about housing benefits? Would I be able to get my rent payed remembering that there would also be my wife and 2 kids?

[Whirlygig]

You are only entitled to Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit if you are on Income Support, Job Seeker's Allowance or Incapacity/Disability benefit. In order to qualify for one of these, you apply to the DWP through your Job Centre. Once that application is successful, you apply to your local council who will pay the HB/CTB. The two organisation DO talk to each other.

IF you are not entitled to IS/JSA etc., then no HB/CTB.

Cheers

Whirls

[JediDude]

Yeah, but surely the wife would be entitled to all of that?

[Whirlygig]

Depends on why she isn't working? And whether she can and will work?

Quite simply, it's up to you what you do, whether legally entitled or not but there are plenty of ways in which to find out your true entitlement. I suspect you are asking whether you can get away with it nor not!

Cheers

Whirls

[smith]

The name of this forum Is "Professional Pilot's Rumour Network", the emphasis being on "Professional", no doubt some people will do ATPL home study and claim income support or job seeker's allowance. You are not allowed to do a university course and claim benefit. The only concession of being a full time student is free council/community charge and I dont know if an integrated ATPL will be regarded as an approved course. Students at uni cannot claim housing benefits. The upshot of all this is if you try and sign on, get caught and prosecuted this will not be regarded as being very "professional" and may jeopordise your job prospects in the future.

[JediDude]

Depends on why she isn't working? And whether she can and will work?

She wouldn't be working because she would have a toddler and a baby to look after. So she wouldn't get the dole but would she still be entitled to income benefit as well as child tax credits?


I suspect you are asking whether you can get away with it nor not!


Not at all. I simply want to know what we would be legally entitled to. I find it hard to believe that the government would leave us broke when we have 2 small children and no income.

The reason that I am asking this on this forum is because I would've expected some people to have been in the same situation during their pilot studies.

[smith]

Basically housing benefits etc are means tested and you have to declare savings, bank details, stocks and shares owned by you etc. If the DWP sees c£50k sitting in your bank account (and legally you'd have to declare this), I don't think it would be conducive to getting any benefits.

[Lucifer]

Not at all. I simply want to know what we would be legally entitled to. I find it hard to believe that the government would leave us broke when we have 2 small children and no income.
Look here mate - if you can't sufficiently plan for your financial future, you are not going to get any of my taxes to support yourself. The government will not support you if you leave the workforce of your own choice to undertake a course of study. Likewise unemployment benefits are not available to stay at home wives - with the exception of some tax credits.

The tax system is designed to encourage you to work, which your wife should be doing if you need more money - simply the childcare support while working is far more attactive than sitting at home.

Before you jump at my neck about your right to bring up your children in the manner you choose - think again. You have made the choice to go to Cabair - and good luck - but consider the conseqences before eating up my tax receipts.

[Corrona]

Gents,

I am a little concerned that JediDude is getting a slightly hard time for asking a reasonable question. I too have been pondering the same issues of 'benefits' whilst undertaking full-time flying training.

As a current serving RAF ground crew bloke who is due to leave within the next year at the end of my agreed term (not PVR!), I have been paying what seems to me like a lot of tax for a lot of years. As such could I ask that the likes of Lucifer refrain from automatically viewing the receiving of state benefits as being the receiving of his taxes and consider the possibility that the individual might merely be 'taking back some of what they have already put in'.

[Whirlygig]

Fair enough Corrona but it is simple to find out your legal entitlement; you go the Citizens' Advice Bureau, the Local Authority, the Job Centre and ask.

However, the point some of us are trying to get across it that it is highly unlikely that any full-time student (whether with stay-at-home wife and kids) will be entitled to any state benefit.

If someone decides to prevaricate on the truth and receive said benefits, then on their own head be it.

An aviation forum is NOT the place to be asking about entitlement to state benefits; that should be the place of the organisations mentioned above. Now whilst I am currently a Government Auditor working on Housing Benefit claims and am reasonably au fait with the rules, it would be professionally remiss of me to give any individual advice.

Cheers

Whirls

[JediDude]

Look here mate - if you can't sufficiently plan for your financial future...

er, by asking these questions what exactly do you think I'm doing?

The tax system is designed to encourage you to work, which your wife should be doing if you need more money

I never said I needed more money, I just want to find out what I'm entitled to.

Both my wife and myself have worked for over 10 years and contributed our fare share of tax. I don't see the problem in getting a little back for a year especially when there are single mothers around who have a much sweeter life than myself for doing not a lot.

[Flying Farmer]

JediDude I was in this situation a few years ago while I did my training.

Strictly speaking you will not be able to claim JSA(jobseekers allowance) as you are not available to work whilst training. As for council tax benefit, as has been posted here, why not give your local job centre a call they will advise.

Your wife may possibly be able to claim JSA but she then must be available to work and there are childcare allowances available. She can also work part time and still claim JSA, up to either 16 or 24 hours a week I believe. The benefit paid reduces the more part time work she does.

Stay at home mums cannot claim because they choose to stay at home, it is of little consequence that you have paid vast sums into the system. The system is set up to encourage people back in to work, if your wife finds part time employment so does someone else ie: the person who takes on your childcare.

The day you finish your training and are finally unemployed JSA is available, believe me the jobcenter will not be able to help you with any aviation related work :ok: :ugh:

[chrisbl]

Both my wife and myself have worked for over 10 years and contributed our fare share of tax. I don't see the problem in getting a little back for a year especially when there are single mothers around who have a much sweeter life than myself for doing not a lot.

A common fallacy is that just because you have paid tax for many years you have any right to expect anything back personally. The tax pays for education, the NHS etc thats what you are getting back.

People have to take responsibility for the choices they make and not expect others to bale then out.

There is no comparison between someone choosing to become a professional pilot and a teenage single mother.

From the professional pilot one is looking for good judgement and sometimes it beggars belief that people are prepared to commit to and spend £70,000 upwards for the prospect of being unemployed. There is a paradox there about judgement.