Who's going to do basic SAR rear crew trg?

[Arctic Tern]

Ladies/Gents. I have a question regarding the future MCA SAR contract.
It appears to me that there is going to be a shortage of rear crew available to CHC once they take-over (if the rumours about Bristows cross-overs, etc are true). Therefore, where are CHC going to recruit all their new guys from and who is going to do the basic intro to SAR training? I'm guessing that CHC aren't going to use expensive AW139 and S92 hours for this.
My guess is that there is going to be some work for SARTU.
Also, there a number of potential SAR crewmen out there in the wilderness who want to know how to pre-qualify themselves for future SAR jobs with CHC (or anyone else who might win the UK SAR(H) contract). Does anyone have any info on this?

AT

[whopperchopper]

Arctic Tern (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=73800)

The problem that CHC have inherited from Bristow’s, is that most of the Bristow rearcrew are in the twilight of their flying careers. So where do you get the extra rearcrew/winchops/winchmen from??

Option 1 . Train new guys, expensive and risky

Option 2 . Recruit from the RAF or RN. Most of the guys have taken the extra money and are tied for the the next 5 years and are waiting for their pensions.

Option 3 . Poach from another company. What a good idea. The only other company is Bond and the guys on the Jigsaw contract; they are young, flying current SAR duties and are medically trained to the same standard as the Forces. They’re also trained on a modern aircraft.
Perhaps this is why 5 of them are going for an interview with CHC , I’m sure the CHC cheque book clout will lure them away as well as allowing CHC to put one over their up and coming rivals. ;)

[Tetchy]

How about,


Police trained observers, not winch trained I know but well versed in flir/nvg etc. Flying in crap weather.

Give them an Atlas Reed/CHC winching course..............

Whats the verdict You decide ?

[cyclic]

Perhaps this is why 5 of them are going for an interview with CHC , I’m sure the CHC cheque book clout will lure them away as well as allowing CHC to put one over their up and coming rivals

I think you will find that the Jigsaw rearcrew are on extremely good salaries not that anyone will be likely to divulge exact figures on here. What could lure them is the opportunity to do some "real" SAR but the CG contracts are pretty quiet these days.

In terms of training, winchmen can be trained from any walk of life provided they have the right aptitude and attitude - the military guys don't arrive at the Squadron already trained. For winch ops it is more difficult as more experience is required and that can only be found by either very long training courses (uneconomical) or on the job training. Training experienced winchmen is definately the way forward but it is definately "chicken and egg".

[doorstopper]

C'mon Arctic, we all know who you are, just ring CHC and offer to do the training for them! Nothing Ventured........

[Arctic Tern]

Great Idea Doorstopper. Can't believe I didn't think of that. Its just come to me.... a quick HHO Basic Course to establish whether the potential employees have the aptitude for the job, some focussed screening of candidates and a recommendation for suitable role (ie Winchman or Hoist Op). All flying done on a cheap twin or even a reliable single. All sounds very sensible. It'll never catch on. Of course you may be incorrectly assuming I know what I'm talking about. :}

[whopperchopper]

Cyclic

I agree the Bond/Jigsaw boys are probably on good money, but i'm sure CHC have more than enough dosh in the bank to match their pay or even better it, also as you say the lure of more SAR jobs might tip the balance.
2 weeks on an oil rig vs a proper SAR job... erm let me think!!!!;)

[SAR Bloke]

and are medically trained to the same standard as the Forces

Are you suggesting that Jigsaw winchmen are Paramedic registered.

In terms of training, winchmen can be trained from any walk of life provided they have the right aptitude and attitude - the military guys don't arrive at the Squadron already trained. For winch ops it is more difficult as more experience is required and that can only be found by either very long training courses

Whilst indeed true, Mil winchman training is also long and intensive. To fully train a RAF winchman takes over 2 1/2 years (not including basic training).

Police trained observers, not winch trained I know but well versed in flir/nvg etc. Flying in crap weather.

Chalk and cheese.

What do you class as crap weather? When was the last time you saw a police helicopter (not that you would be able to see it) grovelling through the mountains at night on NVG with 200m viz and 100 ft cloudbase. Also you would have to be trained to use radar and operate a winch. The latter is not a quick look at winch in or winch but takes a long time to learn (minimum of a year for Mil winch ops).

What I am trying to say is that you cannot pick up Joe Bloggs from the street and train them in a couple of months no matter what their background. I hope they have taken into account the cost of very long training course for each of their untrained rearcrew!! (or they are happy to accept a low standard).

[cyclic]

Whopper

As you may or may not know, it isn't always the rig, in fact they can see a "real" SAR unit from the hangar! Anyway, two weeks at home is better than being full time in Shetland or Stornabag. I know for a fact that CHC cannot match what they are being paid at the moment - this will be part of CHC's problem.

Please also bear in mind that the Jigsaw crews have already carried out CG tasking including winching from fishing vessels at night. They did this and other tasking with winchmen trained in house.

[whopperchopper]

Cyclic

I totally agree with you that CHC have the problem to solve, i just feel the easiest way forward for them with an already tight contract start date is to recruit known and proven crewmen/rearcrew and if they up the money to get the guys from Bond surely that will benefit us all in the long run??

SAR Bloke

As for am i saying the Bond crewmen are all Paramedics. No, but they do the same course as the forces do prior to the forces crewmen becoming paramedics, and not all forces rearcrew have made it to that stage yet.

Sorry just been told that some of the Bond crewmen are in fact Paramedics... sorry guys.:ok:

[Justintime80]

Hand on heart time all you Bond Guys:)

How many Ops Jobs have you done this year?

I have been told by one of your pilot friends of mine that for Miller and Sumburgh it's less than ten for BOTH bases and if you said you used the winch on more than one of them you would be telling porkies.

Now you might be paid a fortune but you must be feeling like all those players that sit on the bench week in week out for Chelsea when they realise there's must be more to life than money and they want to OUT.

[cyclic]

I wasn't going to get drawn in on this one but what the hell! All of the Bond crews are volunteers and they knew that they would be working on a BP contract that wouldn't provide job after SAR job. The proof will be in the eating as to how many move to CHC or elsewhere and this will give a true reflection as to the power of the green.

Your pilot friend may well be correct as to his tally but I didn't think that there was a scoreboard; if there was, and you take into account that there is no overland tasking required of the contract, the "score" at the end of the year may well be quite respectable - but anyway who cares:D

[Arctic Tern]

I know very little about the pay and conditions on the various civvy SAR contracts, but what I do know is that most SAR crewmen are not doing the job for money. That said, it is increasingly important that you pay people what they are worth - and in my humble opinion there are few people who have the responsibility and face the dangers that SAR crews do. Therefore, CHC 'et al' are going to have to put their hands in their pockets to attract the right people. Similarly, CHC and whoever gets the SAR(H) contract are going to have to invest flying hours in training their new people. That means writing proper monthly training requirements that give pilots and rear crew sufficient time to maintain proficiency. Let's stop this ridiculous practice of justifying rear crew trg on the back of pilot trg hours.
Furthermore, SAR operators must invest in top quality role equipment and flying clothing. This also has a big impact on the morale of crews; particularly Winchmen.
As ever, job satisfaction is more than just what goes in the pay packet. But when you pay peanuts you get monkeys!
End of Broadcast.
AT

[cyclic]

AT

The "civvy" companies will pay what they think they can get away with. If competition is fierce they will pay more, however, it is a business and the idea is to make profit. If the job is getting done to the satisfaction of the customer that is what matters.

Not all outfits train on the back of pilots' hours but the quantity of hours will never match the military and nor should they.

[whopperchopper]

Justintime80

I think you have got it right CHC can offer the proper SAR jobs at a rate that the Bond/Jigsaw guys will have dreamed of, the only sticking point is the money. Job satisfaction comes into play here but there is no way wifey at home will like the thought of less money coming in each month.

Talked to a contact in Bond and it seems their chief crewman is jumping ship and his number 2 doesn't want to takeover the job, whats that saying about smoke and fires...:O

[sargod]

whopperchopper

You seem to have a rich vein of information, anymore gossip to tell us??;)

[cyclic]

SG

As in most things that come out of the likes of a WC, it is all a load of c##p! :=

[Tetchy]

Well,

As a regular viewer of Pprune forums, I recall quite recently a thread about Police observer roles being civilianised. And I recall some commentary by folk I assume where involved in SAR jobs , that "civvies" could be trained to fly as Police observers. Now while Im sure this could happen, and given the quality of recruit then with decent training anything can be acheived. Police officer observers watch your backs !

However now this thread has an angle on the thread I have previously mentioned, In fact it is similar. I recall text from that thread clearly from cops promoting the idea that cops in the air are still cops, ie they think like a cop. Not a civvy trained observer (no matter how qualified). And that to have cops in the air was of big benefits to those cops on the ground dealing...............

Now this thread is suggesting that to pay buttons attracts monkeys ?
Never a more true statement, Now that argument on the Police thread was shot down in flames, well folks the point of my post is to do the same on this thread.

There is little doubt that MIL/SAR training within the HM Forces is probably the best in the world...............BUT

You do not have the market on it anymore and rightly or wrongly your grip on it is weakening. BUT when you lock horns with those outside your industry on these forums and come out with comments like.......

"When was the last time you saw a Police helicopter flying in 200m viz and a 100ft cloudbase "

Please dont expect anything other than folk outside your industry having a go at you.

Anyway rant over thank you....................

Civilians as Police observers, most definately as its easy!

Civilians as SAR/Winch Ops not really, too specialised !

[angelonawire]

what the **?@!!! was all that about this thread is about SAR not police camera operators

[Berten]

SAR is not a matter of JAR-OPS3, so far I know. But there are operators performing Hoist operations in bad weather; especially those operators involved in the Sea-Pilot services in the North-Sea. All of them do have a JAR-OPS3 conform training program.
One of those Companies is NHV in Belgium, performing Hoist operations in weather conditions up to 60 kts. All of this crew has been recruted from the 40st SAR SQ and have allready trained several Rear crew members untill now.
In first instance the Rear crew is formed as a safety winchmen, thereafter as hoist operator Good weather Day & Night, then as Hoist operator all weather. Te instructors have performed between 15000 & 20000 hoistings on all type of boats/sailship.
Jus to tell that there is in fact an existing training system.

[SARREMF]

Chaps, I think we might have a small amount of confusion creeping in. No one, that I can see, on this thread has really attacked the Police units. They do a different job to the one this thread relates to.

Secondly, the military training is good and has matured through hard learned lessons from all over the world - remember its better to learn from someone else's experience than your own! However, now it is as cost effective as possible but still delivering the required standard as dictated by the military end user - and before someone attacks that statement I mean we pay as low a rate as possible for the training we demand is provided not, we could do it completely differently and cheaper see next paragraph!

The future, well, we could change the way we do business. You could stream line the training by serving as a winchmen for the first 3-years then moving on to become a winch operator. This will allow a huge amount of on the job training. Remember, we pile a load of training into the winch operator at the moment because he has to be able to do the job on his very first shift - as do the rest of the crew - but, he is the pivotal lynchpin to a crew working well or just adequately - no I am not a winch op I am a pilot!

Do we over train? Possibly, but you have to look at the raw material we start with. You can't write an essay if you don't know the alphabet! Please, do not red pen this post like others on the military forum!!!! So, we start with the very basics and work up to how to safely cut corners. If you go straight to the operational stuff you DO miss why your doing something and it could come back to bite! Or not? And there is the question? Overtrain and cover all bases, or take a risk and only train for some?

Now, who can do the training in the future?

Well, there are other places to train, there are places here too. But with SAR-H we will inevitably have a joint civil and miltary school - yes, there will be military personnel in future SAR.

Lets try constructive comments rather than we are better than you or vice versa - we are all the same we just do it differently [well a bit differently].

[mallardpi]

The suggestion that CHC or indeed any other company will not be able to find adequately trained rearcrew to support SAR in the UK is hard to believe. CHC who have the task now to support the newly won CG interim contract have provided SAR in Ireland for some years now without any bother and additionally is a worldwide helicopter organisation with other SAR untis abroad. So why should UK companies have problems with SAR reacrew recruitment and training in the UK, when SAR is done happily by civvies in 90% of the rest of the world?

[doorstopper]

After you dropped in a couple of rumours thought i would do some checking of my own. From a mil SAR man who knows the Jigsaw setup (hello Matron!) yes there are changes in progress! Not quite what you thought though......interestingly their rearcrew leader has been promoted and moving to the Bond HQ (show me that happening at Bristow/CHC!) and interviews have already started for his successor with three names that i have already heard of so it must be a good position!!
If you look back at the old Jigsaw thread that was full of 'who is going to do the rearcrew training' question, well it happened without the need of us 'experts' and yet here we are again talking about CHC and their problem?
Get over it guys, CHC, Bond and Bristows are full of ex mil sar so whats the beef??
I for one am not afraid of 2012.

DS

[whopperchopper]

Another who makes like he is in the know, if it is such a good position as chief crewman of Bond then why didn't his No2 take the job ,instead they have to interview others to fill a void.

As for ex mil doing SAR i agree , but my point is there is a shortage of qualified SAR rearcrew and this will lead to poaching between the 2 main players left in the UK SAR market.

If you were in a position to appoint a crewman would you settle for second best or would you take the cream from another company???:ugh:

[doorstopper]

Whopper
Me thinks your info is flawed, am told the guy doesnt have a number two and civvy companies always advertise and then interview!:oh:

[Wiretensioner]

So were was the advert for the Bond chief crewmans position or was it like the initial Bond recruiting? Namely if you were under a certain age and a friend of the chief crewman you were in. Of course being ex Navy helped as well!

Forward 40 Winching out, Steady.

[Rotorchic]

First the Senior pilot moves on and now the Cheif Crewmen............

All's well on Jigsaw at Bond?

[collectivefriction]

Another who makes like he is in the know, if it is such a good position as chief crewman of Bond then why didn't his No2 take the job ,instead they have to interview others to fill a void.

Maybe he is a good no. 2 but management don't think he could cut the mustard

[Picador]

Can someone explain to me the requirement for years of training for rear crew...

What exactly is involved?

I fly on a SAR program myself (PIC) with a winch op and 2 winchmen (PJ’s)

It’s my 3rd time as PIC on Maritime and Mountain SAR over the years, with 3 different companies. I’m confused about what kind of training your guys are getting in the UK.

We have regular crew training sessions with no real time limit imposed, more or less train to proficiency ....

I’m not trying to minimize anyone’s role...We have a crew concept, and obviously have more and less experienced guys in different roles as winch-op, winchguy1, winchguy2 etc...

But I can’t understand the years of training involved...? Someone mentioned 2.5 years

Yes...bad wx and blowing hard!... it’s nice to have a smooth and panickproof crew out back, but these are basic character traits, reinforced with good training and some experience.

But I guess I think of rearcrew training to be something in the order of weeks of training, depending on tasking.......followed by extensive OTJ training in a junior position.

I have a junior guy in one of our rearcrews (Don’t know exactly how much experience he has, except he’s junior to the others..I know the winch-op has seven years as a winch-op though)

But given my druthers... on a difficult job..It'd be my choice to have him (Junior) do everything if I could...Not that the others are lacking in any way...just that he’s an outstanding character, and somehow, when he’s playing winch-op on a training run. Everything goes like clockwork. I can't explain why, or quantify/clarify his abilities

Again, I’m not trying to minimize anyone’s input or skills. Just looking I suppose, for idea’s to lift our own game, if in fact anything’s missing?

Thanks for any constructive input! Maybe someone could summarize what's involved in UK training. How the training time is utilized?

Thanks....

[whopperchopper]

As to flawed information, i think you had better check yours out, rumour has it the chief crewman at Bond does have a number 2 and he didn't want the top job as he is looking elsewhere...erm where could that be .... CHC perhaps.

Wiretensioner

That talk is to political as if that would happen!!! he he he

If that is the case then all the RAF lads can work for CHC.;)

[SARREMF]

So, which ones are the constructive comments then?

Lets face it, if the need becomes desperate someone will train people to do the job either here or overseas - be that CHC, Bond or Bristows. Ok, you might not get experienced people but hey, every body starts somewhere! Then problem goes away. [Perhaps] Steps back ........

[Arctic Tern]

SARREMF
Of course there will always be a solution. The usual suspects in the UK SAR game will find a way of putting bums on seats in the back of the helicopters. And I will be the first to agree that the old fashioned training and selection regimes are in need of change - there is now neither the money or the hours to give guys 5/6 month conversion courses, etc. That said, if you are going to cut corners it is even more important that the right people are selected in the first place.
Sadly, it is often the truth that weaknesses in someone's ability rarely show-up until the pressure is on. Therefore, it is vital that you seek quality training opportunities that allow crews to face realistic situations. This is the balance that Chief Pilots and Crewmen Ldrs have to meet - low risk, challenging training events that benefit the whole crew.
I am a big fan of the Voice Marshalling VR Trainer and have seen it in use at both SARTU and Shawbury. It is an ideal tool to introduce and practice VM for Winch Ops and the latest software upgrade has introduced a pretty good sea model that includes some tricky decks. The use of this kit in harness with a focussed flying training programme will produce good basic Winch Ops. I should add that I don't have shares with VP Defence and have nothing to gain by promoting their kit ;)

[Roofus]

In short......someone will! :ok:

It's a question that keeps being asked! & one day someone will have to take the plunge & start ab-nitio winch crew training! That's kind of inevitable! So...what will they look for in likely candidates!??

Winching experience, medical ability & qualifications, navigation, airmanship....to name but a few! Well....this is going to be ab-nitio training....so we're unlikely to find many applicants with winching experience! But....we may find the medical skills we're looking for! Paramedics, Mountain Rescue Team Personnel & other emrgency services personnel!
These people will have worked in high stress enviroments before & therefore have a good chance of having the right characteristics to work well in the air!

The course will have to be a balance of necessary training vs costs! That's a fact everyone has to face! There are enough experienced people to come to those decisions as & when!

One thing that will have to be taken into account is the work that these guys will have to do! Never belittle a SARcrewman!! Whoever does decide to undertake the training needs to tread carefully!

As for the ever popular discussion of who's who in SAR.....I'm ex-navy! But in all honesty.....when it comes to SAR give me a crewman from the Irish Aer Corps everytime! But with the wealth of experience from all walks of life civilian SAR has.....I'm confident that the training will be comprehensive & professional! :)

[angelonawire]

:ok: Well said mate, most sensible post on this thread so far:ok:

[SARBallast]

Whilst people are obvioulsy worried about the standards in what is a high risk and stress environment, I think there ARE ways of solving the problem. Take the latest example for example, BOND with Jigsaw, they took paramedics and indeed people off the street and trained them to be winchmen. Whats wrong with that? They were given a full course and then time in role. It's the same for the pilots, copilot gains experience in role then later does a year of training in the right hand seat (Bristows).

The best way to learn is from those with experience, and that is done in role day in day out. And whilst we still have ex Mil drivers and W'Ops why not gain as much from their experience as possible, both for the Winchmen and Copilots.

I understand people have reservations about a new way of doing something, but the people actually doing the training have a vested interest in doing it properly. End of the day those trainers and trainees might be out on a dark and dingy night, and will need the full crew working properly. Yes the companies (Except Bond maybe with the BP budget to support) will want to do it as cheaply as is feasable, otherwise they would loose money.

My last thought is whilst we may not have a perfect solution, I think all three (Bond, CHC, Bristow) are working out the kinks to improve what they have. Should they not be given a chance to sort it?

[SARREMF]

And it came to pass that constructive comments were made.

At last chaps, we have some real opinions with value! Not the expected "we have done it that way since 1952 so its right".

SARBALLAST, I wish I had said that! Couldn't agree more!

[sarmanontheline]

Its good to see that this thread has stopped being a s**t throwing competition between ex RAF ex RN crews. :mad:

Lads lets face the fact's here the pools of SAR rear crew have rapidly dried up and someone is going to have to bite the bullet and start training crewmen/persons from scratch, given the correct training syllabus.

In every civil SAR organization there is a wealth of experience in both SAR and ab-intio training as soon as the company's involved start smelling the roses on this issue the better, as we will be faced in the not to distant future with a real lack of crews. Not to mention 2012. :ugh:

In July 2007 CHC will find themselves needing at least 10 crewmen to operate the UK CG contract, thats providing that the Bristows lads decide to stay!!! Will they? No one knows except them..

As some people have already said there is allot of people out there who would love to become a Crewman/person, I have often seen posts on PPrune of people asking who would train them up, so no shortage out there. (don't know why they would want to!!)

And other people have said civil SAR cant train them up BLA BLA BLA, and to be quite frank they are the lads who just have to realize that CHANGE is not always a bad thing :ugh:

As for the whole RN RAF argument, Roofus i could not agree with you more cheers man.. :D

[maxtork]

So what kind of schedule do most of these SAR guys work? Is it so many weeks on and so many weeks off like some of the offshore types or do they work a normal type work week with a couple days off? Just curious at this point. I may be up for a change and this sounds interesting. I don't have any SAR specific experience but I have done plenty of precision long line work as a signalman both from the ground and from the AC. Not that that qualifies me for anything but it may be worth a shot. You'll never date the prom queen if you don't ask her out!

Max

[sarmanontheline]

Max
It all depends on what type of operation your looking at some i.e Jigsaw do one week on a rig, week off then a week on an Island then week off etc. Then the Real SAR lads :ok: do shift work mostly 24 hour shifts with reduced readiness inside the 24 hours, or you could be in a really cool base with loads of jobs packed into a 12 hour shift pattern.
You would have to look around but most of the working times and patterns are fairly good provided that the base establishment is up to scratch if not then your likely to be nailed to the aircraft, and the crewroom turns into your living room!!!! :*

[SARBallast]

I am not entirely sure what the Jigsaw routine is, but the guys I have spoken to it say its ok aside fromt he offshore stint. The Cabins in Sumburgh are nice and seem comfortable enough, but the Miller is just a platform with its opffshore issues for people.

The CG routine is 24 on 24 off for a varying number of rotations dependant on hours available. 1pm - 9pm (15 mins readyness) at the hanger, 9pm - 7:30am at home (45mins), 7:30am - 1pm back in hanger (15 mins).

The different shchemes work better or worse for different people, some like the CG way, some like the jigsaw. As with anything in life it depends on your own preference.

As has been said before, there WILL be a requirement for rear crew, not only for new/bigger contracts, but as the aging workforce starts retiring. And please dont go on about the Bond aircrew age, we know they are mostly young-middle aged :E.

In short get in touch with the companies, get your CV on file and see what happens, same deal as if you are a pilot.

Good luck

[Rotorchic]

Any truth in the rumor that the Chief Engineer on Jigsaw is moving onto bigger and better?

[jigsawpuzzle]

Not only the Senior pilot, The Senior Engineer, and now the Senior Crewman, have all maved on. word on the street is that there may be some unrest due to the Aussie Mafia within the company.

The Aussie M.D has apparantly put His Aussie air ambulance mate in the senior crewmans seat (to run a UK SAR unit)????. The senior engines just left was apparantly ex aussie and left because it was overwhelming him, too much pressure (bloody Girl)!!!, The senior pilot initially hired left due to bullying from above( probably thought he was a Sheila)!!!.

Next thing you know they'll all be drinkin sheep dip and trying to strike up the Bar - B in ABZ's tropical climate.....Strooth!!

[cyclic]

(to run a UK SAR unit)???

No, I don't think he "runs" it :O

[bud007]

[quote=

Next thing you know they'll all be drinkin sheep dip and trying to strike up the Bar - B in ABZ's tropical climate.....Strooth!![/quote]

well it is the bond BBQ this weekend

[Rotorchic]

I doubt the accruracy of the Jigsawpuzzle's information. I think you'll find that the Chief pilot left because it was all too much, and the Chief Engineer left simply for a better job, apparrently head hunted. Word is the guys are dissapointed to see him go, as he did a stella job.

[sarmanontheline]

The swipe at the Aussie Air Ambulance crewman could not be further from the truth he is a very experienced SAR crewman, he is a wealth of SAR experience including years on the West coast of Ireland, which the old chief crewman could not hack!!!!

[Arctic Tern]

This all sounds like a bit of Bond Bashing - what's up people? From the earlier comments in this thread it sounded like all was rosy. I have a couple of mates who have just joined Jigsaw on leaving the military, hope they haven't gone to the wrong job!;)
Sorry, just making mischief.

[SARBallast]

OH AT your not making mischief, mentioning the Bond crewman that got dumped on his bum from 12 foot, then whipped off the deck of the ARCC ERIK would be making mischief. Funnily enough Bond2 immediately left, must have wanted to get battered winchman home for some ice on his bruises. :ouch:

Oh dear have I said too much? NO, well I shall save the rest for another time.

[Arctic Tern]

SARBallast - Interesting stuff. But I would be a hypocrite if I didn't admit to bouncing a few winchmen. There are a few exagerated stories still doing the rounds concerning an incident at Dover a few years back.
I'll show you mine if you show me yours :O

AT

[crud12001]

When are the ARRCS going to be installed on the Motherships?and whens its going live?

[cyclic]

SB, would that be 12' or 11' ? I need to know as 11' is acceptable but 12' certainly isn't:bored:

[angelonawire]

Lets put some rumours to rest, this PDF is in the public domain.


Seakings, S92's, AB139's, all to be replaced....38 operational A/C in total, 1/2 dozen in heavies
what about all those converting to type now?? 139's and 92's bit of a waste of time :eek:

225's?? 44 on order????, who said that!!

Joint Civvy and Mil crews trained at SARTU continuation Trng by contractor, that will be interesting, I'd like to see the military chaps trying to dish out orders to a civvy :ouch: :E


Falklands Tour :sad:

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/sar-hindustrypresentation.pdf

I hope this is of some interested to all you SAR buoys!!

......When are YOU going to make the jump to civvy street, maybe wise to do it sooner than later, or are you going to wait for the mass exodus when all Mil guys finally realise the inevitable, there is more to life than a couple of hundred quid pension per month that you will give half of to Mr Gordon Brown...

[Arctic Tern]

Well here's a first! Someone who believes what DPA say. Only a matter of a couple of years ago under SABR SAR the RAF and RN were going to get new helicopters and the MCA were going to be harmonised (whatever that means).
Don't believe everything you read.
As for 225's - now that is funny. ;)

[[email protected]]

The final comment by Julie Storey 'looking forward to getting on with it' sums up the process - very slow and unwieldy in order to tick all the boxes when none of the contractors want the hassle of having to build/create new bases, they just want the MoD to hand over the existing ones so they can 'get on with it'.

If milSAR is retained there will still be a big gap between the MCA getting started in 2012 (presuming new aircraft are introduced) and the military who haven't got enough money to fund their side of the deal until at least 2015.

Where is the money for the helicopters (SAR and SH) - oh we used that for fighters that we don't need.

[IrishSarBoy]

"none of the contractors want the hassle of having to build/create new bases, they just want the MoD to hand over the existing ones so they can 'get on with it'."

god forbid they hand over the buildings at Leconfield. H & S would have a field day on the stairs from ops to the dispersal!;)

[Arctic Tern]

god forbid they hand over the buildings at Leconfield. H & S would have a field day on the stairs from ops to the dispersal!

Mmm, not sure anyone would fancy Wattisham either, it's a bloody long way from the coast and the Army tend to get in the way of getting to work.

[SARBallast]

Edited as Cyclic made a valid point below, and I am merely making a fire where it isnt needed.

[cyclic]

SB

I think most people on this forum can probably work out who I am. The Managing Pilot is ex RN, ex SAR Ireland so you are completely wrong. I have 5500hrs most of which is SAR. If you have genuine concerns about an operation I suggest you take them up through the proper channels. If you are from Bristows and I'm not saying you are, then I would seriously wind your neck in. People in glass houses should certainly not throw stones. If you have spoken to the ARCC Commander I wouldn't think he would want his personal opinions airing on this forum - he is a BP contractor as well. This is last thing I am going to comment on in this forum as it has gone beyond rumour and fun.

[SARBallast]

Fair point going back and editing my post, apologies I am getting suckered into the online thing. The only thing I will say is I dont live in a glass house, and am merely repeating what a lot of people up in shetland are talking about. And no it isn't just the Bristow people who have heard about this, locals have been talking too. Perhaps THATS the problem, repeating gossip, so again apologies for getting caught up in the gossip trap.

[angelonawire]

SB as you are well aware of who I am, and I know who you are, and you know what happened to me during my time at the "greatest SAR company in the world":sad: ,probably best keeping your opinions to yourself. :ok:

[SARBallast]

ER ok, who do you think I am? :confused: I think you have me confoosed with someone else.

[Arctic Tern]

'Steady - on boys', I started this thread to talk about SAR training and initial training for ab-initios - certainly didn't want a peeing contest. Now I don't know who you are and it's probably best that way, but if you are SAR boys then I bet you are dedicated and professional blokes/girls who do a difficult and demanding job. Should be pulling in the same direction me thinks. Lets dream about bigger wages, better contracts, more support, greater commonality and beer. ;)

AT

[crud12001]

AT,

couldnt agree more!.

So can anyone shed some light on how things are going at Jigsaw.

When will it be up and running? just interested.

[bud007]

AT,

couldnt agree more!.

So can anyone shed some light on how things are going at Jigsaw.

When will it be up and running? just interested.

jigsaw whent live back in feb 06 word is thats its going well and the boy's have a few jobs under there belts:ok:

[murry]

Hiya lads.

I am interested in a career in sar ops but i cant find anyone or anywhere i could get some degree of training apart from joining the mil. I know there are a lot of winchmen and winch ops on this site so i would be very greatfull if any of you could give me some bit of information reguards what route to take.

Thanks lads.

[Arctic Tern]

I am interested in a career in sar ops but i cant find anyone or anywhere i could get some degree of training apart from joining the mil. I know there are a lot of winchmen and winch ops on this site so i would be very greatfull if any of you could give me some bit of information reguards what route to take.


Interesting dilemma.
Firstly you should know that by far the highest majority of winch ops and winchmen operating in SAR are current or ex-military. Indeed, I think it would be fair to say that it has until recently been much easier/cheaper for civvy SAR companies to take ex-military guys and convert them to their aircraft and operating procedures, than it was to train a guy from scratch.
Following recent contract awards and the future of SAR(H), it now apparent that companies like CHC, Bond, Bristows, etc are having to look to ab-initios more and more. No longer are there droves of military guys leaving the service, and one could argue that the arrival of newer helicopter types (S92, AW139, AS332L2, etc) suggest that ex-military SAR experience is not necessarily relevant.
From a training perspective, all SAR operators will find it difficult to train new people on expensive platforms like S92 and AW139. It just isn't cost-effective to do this and the annual training budget is normally allocated to currency training for the front line crews. Having said that, I believe that current contractual arrangements with the MCA in the UK dictate that the SAR operator should have a training academy - therefore, I would be surprised if CHC don't have a plan for such an outfit. In this case they will offer ab-initio training or contract it out.
The other alternatives are to find one of the few Helicopetr Hoist Operator (HHO) training providers and ask them to put you on a course. But (and a big but) there is no guarantee of future employment and the costs tend to be quite high.
If you PM me I can give you a few more details without upsetting the moderator on this forum.


Edited later.

Ok rant started.
I started this thread with a genuine question about training new guys for SAR. We've been round the houses a few times, but it seems that Whopperchopper's comment is about right in that SAR companies will satisfy their man power requirements by stealing experienced blokes from other operators. I have heard all sorts of rumours about new SAR academies, and I have no doubt that when SAR(H) and UKMFTS get up and running their will be a huge SAR academy at Valley or somewhere else. But what is happening now?
There are many guys like Murry (earlier post) who ask about where to go for SAR training. When I am approached personally by guys with aspirations for a job in SAR I always refer them to the training managers or HR departments at the usual places (Jigsaw, CHC, Bristows). To date I have not had a single reply from these operators nor any indication as to how these ab-initios can enter SAR. New SAR rearcrew can be given very basic training on EC135/EC145/BK117/212/Squirrel, etc before being groomed for a front line job on S61, S92, AW139, etc. I have proved this and continue to be convinced that this is the way ahead. Low 'up front' cost, low risk, sensible progression all outsourced to a sub-contractor. Someone ought to pinch this idea cos I ain't getting anywhere.

AT

[helopat]

Tern,

Can you educate a simple pilot on the basic elements of training for a SAR crewman? Keep it simple for me, ok? To what extent could this training be done in a small aircraft? How about the use of training devices (winch simulators at a pool facility, etc).

As you said, when a training academy is up and running, beauty.

HP

[Arctic Tern]

Tern,

Can you educate a simple pilot on the basic elements of training for a SAR crewman? Keep it simple for me, ok? To what extent could this training be done in a small aircraft? How about the use of training devices (winch simulators at a pool facility, etc).


Helopat, check your PM box for some contact details.

Arctic Tern

[Big Peter]

Will BP allow the Bond SAR aircrew to be poached by CHC for their new Coastguard contract?

Rumour has it that BP has already offered Bond an open cheque book if CHC start poaching their SAR pilots. After a high level pay hike Bond will place adverts to poach pilots from CHC at these sky high rates. CHC will then have to pay all its pilots these new industry rates to retain those who may wish to leave to fly Bond's new 225's. At an oil price of $70 plus I look forward to ordering my new Porsche next year, I promise to fill it with only BP petrol.:ok:

Come on CHC, go for it and start a bidding war ! ;)

[crud12001]

Big Pete,

rumours going around that Jigsaw will be ditched soon.Apparantly they have a problem with the Ships and the ARRK's? The mother Ships are just going in and out of Aberdeen with cargo.Non of them have the big boats fitted.

How can they provide a rescue service with out them?

You heard anything?

[DARK SHADOW]

Evening gents, Im an experienced aircrewman/winchman from Australia looking for work in the UK. Who does one have to get in touch with regarding employment with some of the companies you guys are talking about that are short on crew. Thanks in advance for the help:O

[Tonka Toy]

Just a suggestion, has anyone of these companies thought of poaching from the the MCA's fixed wing rear crew boys and retraining them? Some of them are extremely experienced with SAR experience and would just need some retraining to the rotary environment - and think of the experience they'd bring to it. Any thoughts?

[Droopystop]

Nice idea, but operating search equipment/mk 1 eye balls is only a very small part of rear crew's work. Paramedics can bring more valuable experience.

[rebreather]

this may well fall on deaf ears gentlemen but having tried to get some sort of contact in the uk helicopter industry for a while now,i will give anything a shot.
very intersting reading the threads on sar rear crew members,even chc are advertising in the national press recently.imagine my surprise(not really)the positions are only for experienced crew members so now to the point,how does one become an inexperienced member let alone get to retirement age as most now seem to be.to work with an old hand and learn from experience is great if someone out there would start the process off in the first place...:confused:

[thorpey]

Whilst i appreciate that the military and coastguard are the dogs bo**ocks when it comes to SAR work, it certainly is possible to train civvies up to a good standard of hoist ops. Obviously, there needs to be a strict selection process making sure there are the right candidates, who can be trained with the correct training programme. Having seen the work of HRC UK, a company who trains HHO, it can be done and to a very high standard. As previously quoted, by a SAR operator, even the mil guys have to start somewhere.

[jackjack08]

The problem that CHC have inherited from Bristow’s, is that most of the Bristow rearcrew are in the twilight of their flying careers. So where do you get the extra rearcrew/winchops/winchmen from??


There is a huge crop of current Air Ambulance paramedics that have years of registered paramedic experience

As for the winching experience, then by 2012 we'll all be trained in 'inland winching' anyway on air ambulances.