Origin of RAF Motto

[Cusco]

My son who is ex RAF tells me that there is a squadron whose motto is
"To Kill People and Break Their Stuff" but he can't remember which squadron.

Can anyone out there confirm or deny this please?

If true, which squadron?

Many thanks

Safe flying

Cusco

[A2QFI]

Is this what he thinks the motto is, as shown on the squadron badge/crest, or is it a rough translation from the latin which is often used? The motto as stated, is very unlikely IMHO

[Archimedes]

I can't exactly see the Chester Herald approving that motto....

It's most likely an extremely rough translation of the motto from Latin/Greek/Malay/etc or an unofficial motto (possibly based on a loose translation of the offical motto).

So, classical scholars and linguists, feast your eyes on this (http://www.wischik.com/damon/Texts/squadronmottoes.html) and work out which is the most likely!

[Pontius Navigator]

Inspired to have a look at 6 Sqn's badge. It was different from what I thought. I thought they had a flying can opener following their Hurribomber success in the western desert. Is the current badge and earlier one?

[Archimedes]

I'm 99.9% certain that the 6 Sqn badge is the original, PN - and that it has always been the official badge. The Flying Canopener marking is unofficial/semi-official, in the same way that 112 Sqn's shark mouth had nothing to do with its badge (of a Helwan Cat) and 50 Sqn's running dingoes emblem had nothing to do with the actual squadron badge ('Dingo' being an early R/T call sign for 50 Sqn AIUI).

[BEagle]

Runnning dingoes? I always heard them referred to as '$hagging rats'!

[Talking Radalt]

I think the "break their stuff" bit probably came from a Mover :hmm:

[Pontius Navigator]

Archimedes, thanks for that. I think I have seen the can opener in the shield but it could be fading memory. However that prompts a second question.

Has any sqn changed its crest from one approved style to another?

[henry crun]

"Stuff" !

In modern usage it means that the originator has such a limited vocabulary s/he cannot think of any other word to define the situation or object they are trying to describe.

[teeteringhead]

Has any sqn changed its crest from one approved style to another?..short answer is yes - 600 (City of London) Sqn - assuming you count the auxies.

Longer answer: The "normal" badge - the "Moon and paperknife" - was approved in 1944. However, since its formation in 1925, 600 had used - unofficially - the arms of the City surmounted by an eagle. A banner bearing this badge was presented to the squadron in 1934 or 35 by Sir Percy Greenaway a former (1932) Lord Mayor. It was presented in memory of Sqn Ldr S B Collett, a CO of the Sqn who was killed at the 1934 Hendon Air Display.

Sqn Ldr Collett was the son of Sir Charles Collett, who was Lord Mayor in 1933. Fast forward to 1951. The Sqn's Honorary Air Commodore, HM Queen Elizabeth (later the Queen Mum) was apprised of the history by the then CO, Sqn Ldr J P Meadows DFC (or Sqn Ldr David Proudlove, depending on your sources), who spoke of the Sqn's reluctance to sever this poignant link with the City. QE speaks to her old man (Geo VI) and very shortly afterwards, Air Ministry Order No N734 of 1951 annouced that the King had "conferred the special privilege upon the Squadron by approving a second badge for its use." As the "City" badge is similar to that on municipal vehicles, it is known as the "dustcart badge".
Here are the two badges: http://www.rafweb.org/Sqn_Badges/600Sqn_1.jpghttp://www.rafweb.org/Sqn_Badges/600Sqn.jpg

[BEagle]

Per Ardua ad Astra....

Through hardship to the stars.

Or as a certain Scottish Officer whose name shall not be uttered in a fighter station Mess would have it:

"Your hardship, my stars"

[Northern Circuit]

RCAF Helos 406sqn

Their motto is "We kill at night"

[maxburner]

I always admired 74's motto - I fear no man. Perfect for a fighter squadron.

[snapper41]

A bit off-thread I know, but since the subject of sqn badges has cropped up;

I'm led to believe that 230 Sqn's badge comes from the label on Tiger Beer. Apparently, the sqn was assembled in a bar in Singapore, trying to come up with a design for the badge, when someone looked at the bottle in his hand, and viola, a badge was born.

Also, I'm told that 22 Sqn's badge features the symbol for Pi due to the fact that during WW1, 22 Sqn's airfield was next door to that of 7 Sqn, therefore when 22 took off, they flew over 7; 22 over 7 = Pi.

Any other stories?

[ORAC]

RAF web site history of 22 Sqn says it was 7 Wing HQ, not 7 Sqn...

Badge: On a Torteaux, a Maltese Cross throughout, overall a 'pi' fimbriated - approved by King Edward VIII in May 1936. The Greek sign 'pi' denotes the Squadron's service in France with the 7th Wing, the pilots often taking off over the Wing's HQ - hence the 22 over 7, or 'pi'.

[snapper41]

I stand corrected:hmm:

[philrigger]

Snapper41

230 Squadron

MOTTO: Kita chari jauh (Malay) - 'We search far'

BADGE: In front of a palm tree eradicated, a tiger passant guardant - approved by HRH King George VI in February 1937. The badge commemorated the Squadron's association with Malaya, the travellers palm being a reference to the long flights so often undertake and the tiger is said to have been inspired by the labels on the bottles on the local Singaporean brew.

'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[South Bound]

Per Ardua ad Astra....

Through hardship to the stars.



Thought it was 'hard work' not hardship...?

[airsound]

Archimedes

Thanks for your motto list - though it does have the odd typo. For instance 24 Sqn's motto is 'In Omnia Parati' (not paratia) - which, when it was a Hastings sqn, meant 'we drop paratroops everywhere' Possibly still does.

airsound

[Keg]

This from the RAAF news on the issue of the RAAF (and RAF) official motto.

THE AIR Force badge is steeped in history, as is its Latin motto, Per Ardua Ad Astra. But where did we get the words from?

In 1912, LTGEN Sir David Henderson the CO of the newly-formed [English] Royal Flying Corps (RFC) asked his officers to suggest a motto which would foster the RFC’s esprit de corps.

After many suggestions, the motto a ‘Journey to the Stars’, or ‘Per Ardua Ad Astra’ in Latin, was selected. It was approved by King George V on March 15, 1913.

The motto was subsequently adopted by the RAF after its formation in 1918 and by the newly-formed RAAF in 1921.

What do the words mean? So far, no one has been able to provide a literal translation of the motto, nor state its origin with any certainty. It was used for hundreds of years by an Irish family, the Mulvany’s, and a variation of it, ‘Ad Astra per Ardua’, was used as the motto by a Scottish family.

It also appears in a book by famous English author, Sir Henry Rider Haggard. He translated ‘Per Ardua Ad Astra’ as ‘Through Struggle to the Stars’.

Despite numerous attempts by the RAF and other British authorities, no authoritative translation has been possible, as Ardua and Astra have more than one meaning in Latin.

Other translations have included ‘Through Labour to the Stars’, ‘Through Adversity to the Stars’, ‘Through Hardship to the Stars’ and ‘Through Toil to the Stars’. However, the RAF translated it as ‘Through Struggles to the Stars’.

The matter may have rested there. However, in 2002 the RAAF Memorial in Canberra was being redeveloped. As part of the process, the then Chief of Air Force, AIRMSHL Angus Houston, signed off on what is now the official Air Force translation, “Through Struggle to the Stars.”

This aligned the translation with Commonwealth air forces and the dictionary meaning of the key word ‘struggle’: “to contend [resolutely] with an adversary or opposing force, task or problem; to strive”.

This is particularly apt in view of the RAAF’s early history and its proud heritage and traditions.


More great news from the RAAF available from here:

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews/editions/4813/topstories.htm

A RAAF senior officer that I've had the pleasure of listening to always said that the primary role of the RAAF was to 'kill people and break their stuff'. It may not be politically nice to say but it probably is an apt description!

Just my view from the cheap seats.

[cockneyrock]

A RAAF senior officer that I've had the pleasure of listening to always said that the primary role of the RAAF was to 'kill people and break their stuff'. It may not be politically nice to say but it probably is an apt description!
Just my view from the cheap seats.

Another twist on a similar Bar Room Moto I heard for the RAF is "Drop Bombs and Kill People"

[TMJ]

Thought it was 'hard work' not hardship...?

You can trasnslate it either way, or indeed a number of others; English has a number of ways of getting the gist of the idea across.

I was quite amused the first time I saw the RAF Regt motto... More so when I saw the SERE Sqn motto at Cranditz which goes, IIRC, "hodie hic, cras abiere".

[South Bound]

Don't mind working hard, hardship is a bit out of order though!!!!

[Pontius Navigator]

RAF web site history of 22 Sqn says it was 7 Wing HQ, not 7 Sqn...
Badge: On a Torteaux, a Maltese Cross throughout, overall a 'pi' fimbriated - approved by King Edward VIII in May 1936. The Greek sign 'pi' denotes the Squadron's service in France with the 7th Wing, the pilots often taking off over the Wing's HQ - hence the 22 over 7, or 'pi'.

For the anoraks yet another question is promted by ORAC's reply. How many crests were approved by KE VIII?

[Roland Pulfrew]

For the anoraks yet another question is promted by ORAC's reply. How many crests were approved by KE VIII?

7? Or was it 8?

[Flatus Veteranus]

Archimedes, thanks for that. I think I have seen the can opener in the shield but it could be fading memory. However that prompts a second question.
Has any sqn changed its crest from one approved style to another?


208 before and during WW2 flew with a device known coloquially as the "flying shufti"; a winged human eye, which tied in well with the sqn motto "Vigilant". The Eye of Horos (? forgive my scanty classical education) also fitted well with the squadon's long connection with Egypt. When the time came to regularise matters through the Chester Herald, the legend (in my time) was that he took exception to the device because, festooned as it was with a luscious growth of lashes, it bore too close a resemblance to the female genitalia - depicted athwartships (or Chinese fashion for those who served on squadrons with an RFC background). So the device was replaced by a Sphynx (which accounts for its inscrutable smile). In addition I have a copy (from The Sun"of a sensuous young lady sitting on the text "208 penetrates" - a relic of the Bucc era.

On 50 Sqn we were allowed to put up the "Dingos" on the fins in fluorescent plastic silhouettes for detachments to the Antipodes, although each aircraft bore the official badges of all three squadrons at Waddo.

[Pierre Argh]

Per Ardua Ad Astra

I thought that meant...

Go to Work in a Vauxhall

[Washington_Irving]

I always liked "F:mad: this for a game of soldiers".

[cazatou]

I always tried to live up to 46 Sqn's motto - "We rise to conquer"

[Phot]

Keg

I was told it ment "Through Adversity to the Stars" while at 1RTU. But the quote I like is that the RAAF is just a flying club with bombs.

[Cusco]

This from the RAAF news on the issue of the RAAF (and RAF) official motto.
More great news from the RAAF available from here:
http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews/editions/4813/topstories.htm
A RAAF senior officer that I've had the pleasure of listening to always said that the primary role of the RAAF was to 'kill people and break their stuff'. It may not be politically nice to say but it probably is an apt description!
Just my view from the cheap seats.
Keg: that's it! -see my original post.
Do you have a name for this RAAF chap or any written reference.
Cheers
Cusco

[philrigger]

'Per Ardua ad Astra'

'By arduous ways to the stars'

That was what we were taught in 1964 when I signed up.


'We knew how to whinge but kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[Blacksheep]

Kita chari jauh (Malay) Very bad Malay. They should change it.

Although Brats often reckon that "Per Ardua Ad Astra" translates as "Through Difficulties To The Cinema," every airman would agree that it means "After work we're all off to the cinema."...

'In Omnia Parati'... ...means 'we drop paratroops everywhere' Possibly still does.I never knew the Legions had paratroops. They never had aeroplanes at any rate, perhaps they threw them over the walls with a balista centenaria? Or called upon Hercules himself.

Hey, ho. Jalan-jalan, menchari makan.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Bit off the topic.. .but I remember a friend and I getting a shopkeeper to come out from the back room and serve us after yelling

"Hello... we are breaking your stuff" :}

[Toby Gee]

I thought it was through "Adversity" to the stars!

[PerArdua]

"Through Endeavour to the Stars" rings a bell!!!

PA

[c-bert]

I think 'Through Endeavour to the Stars' is NASA's motto. Clearly stolen from the RAF.

[Climebear]

From the RAF Intranet:
The Royal Air Force Motto
" Per Ardua ad Astra"
As far as can be ascertained, the motto of the Royal Air Force dates back to 1912 and the formation of the Royal Flying Corps (RFC). The first Commanding Officer of the RFC (Military Wing) was Colonel Frederick Sykes. He asked his officers to come up with a motto for the new service; one which would produce a strong esprit de corps.
Shortly after this, two junior officers were walking from the Officers' Mess at Farnborough to Cody's Shed on Laffan Plain. As they walked, they discussed the problem of the motto and one of them, JS Yule, mentioned the phrase "Sicictar ad Astra", from the Virgilian texts. He then expanded on this with the phrase "Per Ardua ad Astra", which he translated as, "Through Struggles to the Stars". Colonel Sykes approved of this as the motto and forwarded it to the War Office. It was then submitted to the King, who approved its adoption.
The question of where this motto had come from can be answered by he fact that Yule had read it in a book called "People of the Mist" by Sir Henry Rider Haggard. In the first chapter was the passage, "To his right were two stately gates of iron fantastically wrought, supported by stone pillars on whose summit stood griffins of black marble embracing coats of arms and banners inscribed with the device 'Per Ardua ad Astra'".
As to where Sir Rider Haggard obtained this phrase is still unclear although it is possible that it originated from the Irish family of Mulway who had used it as their family motto for hundreds of years and translated it as "Through Struggles to the Stars".
The authoritative translation of the motto is just as unsure as the source. Since there can be a number of different meanings to 'Ardua' and 'Astra', scholars have declared it to untranslatable. To the Royal Air Force and Commonwealth Air Forces though it will remain "Through Struggles to the Stars". It is peculiar to the Royal Air Force and has been made famous by the heroic and courageous deeds of our air forces over the years.

[tmmorris]

If that was copied and pasted from the RAF Intranet, then it's a shame it garbles the original 'sic itur ad astra'. I know Latin is difficult if you don't understand it, but really!

And the Latin words in question don't have several meanings, either (back to an earlier post) - it's just that their exact meaning can't be expressed by an exactly equivalent English word. That's almost always the case with translations, at least of abstract concepts.

Tim

[FrogPrince]

Very interesting.

If I understand it correctly, the RA was allocated a block of squadron numbers for their new AOP sqns just prior to WWII, starting with 651 Sqn. These were then adopted by the AAC in 1957 and are still going strong.
The latest squadron is 677 Sqn AAC (V), a TA ground support sub-unit within 6 Regt, re-badged from RA(V) to feed the mighty Apache. With a prevailing wind, the next one after that should be 678 Sqn AAC(V).

Now 677 has taken its badge and motto from its predecessor unit, 202 Bty RA(V). Are there any conventions that dictate what can and cannot chosen for 678 ? I ask because there is a very nifty motto for 644 Sqn: "Dentes draconis serimus" ("We sow dragon's teeth "). The badge is also rather fetching and links nicely to 16 AA Bde:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/h644.html
http://www.rafweb.org/Sqn621-650.htm

However, 7644 Sqn RAuxAF claims a golden thread to this unit but has a completely different badge and motto.

Could one just pinch the badge and motto anyway ??

[Blacksheep]

it's just that their exact meaning can't be expressed by an exactly equivalent English word. That's almost always the case with translations, at least of abstract concepts.To be serious for a change, ardua or arduus is clearly the latin root for the english word "arduous" which makes the meaning pretty clear to me. Wherever it may have come from, "Per Ardua Ad Astra" is a highly suitable motto for the youngest but certainly not the least of our armed forces.

[Archimedes]

FP -
The AOP unit numberplates were RAF rather than RA, so they transferred from the RAF to the Army, rather than within it.

Short answer to your question - Probably not.

Long-winded answer to your question -

There could be a couple of issues about 678 taking on the badge and motto of 644.

The first is that if offical approval for the badge be sought, the College of Heralds would, I suspect, note that the badge (and motto) had already been awarded, and not approve the badge for 678 Sqn.

Second, I would imagine that 7644 (VR) Sqn's claim to the lineage of 644 would be a major issue. I'm not sure of the rules here, but if 2602 and 2603 Squadrons employed the old 602 and 603 Sqn badges, then it seems that 7644 have been a little remiss in maintaining the historical link; if 2602 and 2603 used different badges because - as the designation suggested - they weren't the 'real' 602 and 603, then the problem here is that if 7644 become 644 in another RAuxAF reorganisation, they'd then find that someone had pinched their badge....

The third issue is that there are still some 644 Squadron members around (there is a sqn website...) who would probably object to a new squadron being formed and simply taking the badge and motto without asking - particularly since the unit is (a) non flying [if I've read your description properly] and (b) an army unit.

Since 672 (for instance) wasn't awarded a badge when it was an RAF unit, it must have created its own. This would seem to militate further against a direct lift of 644's badge and motto.

As long as there aren't any expectations for 678 (if it is given that number) to adopt the badge of its predecessor unit (if there was one), then a new badge would need to be designed and it could pay homage to 644 Squadron's badge.

[FrogPrince]

Archimedes,

Many thanks for a comprehensive answer.

FP