CPL(H) becomes ATPL(VFR)?

[Stringfellow Dork]

It was mentioned in another thread (by paco) that "the current CPL(H) will be an ATPL(VFR) in early 2007 if all goes well..."

Can anyone shed any light on what this means exactly and what - if any - the implications are?

Thanks in advance.

[Aesir]

Are you talking about some UK CAA national type of deal?
I have never heard of this under JAA (soon to become EASA) but would be interested to hear more if anyone has information!

[HillerBee]

I got this information last year as well, from someone very high in the JAA. It seemed they are working on 4 types of ATPL. So far never heard from it again though. In Canada something similar exist I believe, just to make it possible to do logging with S61 etc.

[Heli-Ice]

I'd recomende this one one.

The JAR book of wisdom:

"Jar 2.285 Theoretical knowledge
The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H)
satisfies the knowledge requirements for the
issue of an ATPL(H)."

Some of the JAR countries (Ireland & Denmark) use this reg part to fulfill the requirements of the JAR's based on pilots "old" CPL (H) IR towards the ATPL.

In the UK, adopt a reg and they triple it...!

[paco]

The ATPL VFR will essentially be the current CPLH syllabus, with a few tweaks to include NVG, etc. The current CPLH is of a higher standard than the CPL A, so presumably this fits in with the great scheme of things.

The learning objectives are only just about to come out, or are at least very recent, so don't hold your breath just yet

phil

[Stringfellow Dork]

Cheers.

And if you've done/are doing the current JAA CPL(H) course (but without the few tweaks for NVG stuff etc.) then what? Do you end up with a CPL(H) whilst those doing near enough the same syllabus a year or so later get an "ATPL(H) VFR"?

Would there actually be any differences between the privileges of the two licenses?

Thanks in advance...

[212man]

"Would there actually be any differences between the privileges of the two licenses"

Yes, an ATPL allows you to act as pilot in command of an MPH for public transport, whereas with a CPL you can only act as PIC on an SPH (For PT).

[Stringfellow Dork]

In which case do you miss out on that privilege because of the timing of your study and you haven't read about NVGs? Or are there plans to convert/upgrade previously issued JAA CPL(H)s to the ATPL(H) VFR?

No prizes for guessing what I'm halfway through studying for...

[paco]

Having just constucted a distance learning course over both syllabuses, I don't think it will make much difference, since the UK licence was always an hours upgrade due to the higher standard of knowledge involved. The mention of new technology is just that - I know from talking to the question people that they are well aware that the average new pilot will not see NVG for some years, and they will get company training anyway, so you won't get any questions on it (well, never say never :)). The intention of including it in the learning objectives is to ensure that you at least get some knowledge, since the company training is not a known quantity (don't I know it).

If I were in the office that deals with such things, I would just grandfather you in, but I'm not in that office.....

Phil

[Maverick Laddie]

:ugh:

Excuse please my ignorance but where does the requirement for knowledge of NVG ( Night Vison Goggles ) as a device used to enhance vision during night conditions, Appertain to the reciept of a VFR ( Visual as can see like in daylight conditions Flight rules.

What Numpty can`t find a job in the real aviation world but my old CO fellow member of the funny handshake brigade found me this job in the CAA thought that one up

[Stringfellow Dork]

I would guess (I have no knowledge of NVG) that using them means you are in VMC (they would be pretty useless in IMC - they ain't X-Ray VG!), flying with regard to visual references and not flying on instruments - and therefore VFR.

[paco]

In the coming year the helicopter examination system will change - the CPL(H) will be the same (lower) level as the CPL(A) and the ATPL (H)VFR will be the same exams as the ATPL(H) IR minus the IR questions, so will be the same as the current CPL(H).

This is because many alpine countries need their pilots to fly larger helis with two crew to carry more pax which legally requires an ATPL but they cant fly IFR in the mountains. If the ATPL VFR pilot wants to up grade to IR he has to sit the exams for IR.

The new CPL(H) pilot that has a credit for the CPL(H) theoretical knowledge at the new lower level exam & wishes to up grade to ATPL VFR or ATPL IR will have to take the higher level exams. There will be some credits, since some exams such as P of F and comms are the same with the exception that the comms exam at the IR level will have to be taken if applying for ATPL(H) IR.

Some bridging arrangements are being considered.

I also hear that the interim system, where you took some aeroplane exams which were credited towards a helicopter licence, will be finishing soon.

Phil

[Spunk]

This is because many alpine countries need their pilots to fly larger helis with two crew

Paco is quite right. Based on national rights the pre-fcl-2 CPL(H) had the same level as the ATPL(H) but without the IR. Once you received a type rating for a transport category helicopter you were automaticly issued an ATPL(H) VFR only.

If nowadays you have to take a proficiency check for your ATPL(H) you will need to find an examiner with the very same privileges (ATPL(H)) as the candidate for the proficiency check.

Being an examiner is all based on FCL-2, so the examiner himself needs a FCL-2 based ATPL(H) IFR. Good luck finding one.:}

[212man]

"Once you received a type rating for a transport category helicopter you were automaticly issued an ATPL(H) VFR only."

Interesting remark; which country was that the case in? Certainly not the UK where the ATPL was issued based on experience.

Interestingly, those with UK CAA ATPLs that only had SPH types on them have been issued with JAR CPLs come renewal time (well to my certain knowledge one pilot with EC types, 120/350/355/135/155/, has:uhoh: )

[Stringfellow Dork]

I'll be mighty p:mad:sed off if I don't end up getting a ATPL (H) VFR whilst having done the same level of theory as those that do. I'd even sit an NVG exam...

[paco]

It's going to be a while yet before the new licesing arrangements happen! Nearly two years according to current info, as it has still to go through various committees

Phil

[Stringfellow Dork]

Cheers for the update. :ok:

[MCA]

Any updates on the ATPL (H) restricted to VFR? I have been looking around the various websites with out much luck

[eivissa]

We here in Germany are right now very busy reading und adopting the newly introduced amendment 6 (our previous amendment was 2) for JAR-FCL 2. Concerning the new ATPL-VFR I can only quote the "new" JAR-FCL 2 Amendment 6:

JAR–FCL 2.050 Crediting of flight time and
theoretical knowledge

"(9) An applicant having passed the
theoretical knowledge examination for a
CPL(H) under previous amendments of JARFCL
2 up to and including Amendment 3 is
credited with the theoretical knowledge
requirements for ATPL(H).
(10) The holder of a CPL(H) gained
under previous amendments of JAR-FCL 2 up
to and including Amendment 3 is credited with
the theoretical knowledge requirements for
ATPL(H).
(11) The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H)
gained under previous amendments of JARFCL
2 up to and including Amendment 3 is
credited with the theoretical knowledge
requirements for ATPL(H) and IR(H)."

Since I have received my CPL under the old amendment 2, I hope that this means I will only have to do the IR to get my ATPL-theory credit.

For the ones who have gained their CPL under the newer amendments (4-6) the JAR-FCL 2 Amendment 6 sais the following:

"(8) An applicant having passed the
relevant theoretical knowledge examination for
CPL(H) or IR(H) shall be credited with the
theoretical knowledge requirements as
specified in Appendix 4 to JAR-FCL 2.050.

Appendix 4 to JAR–FCL 2.050
Crediting of theoretical knowledge requirements for the issue of a CPL(H), an IR(H) or an ATPL(H)
(See JAR–FCL 2.050(b)(8))
3. An applicant for an ATPL(H), or an applicant for an ATPL(H) with an IR(H), having passed the relevant
theoretical examinations for a CPL(H) is credited towards the theoretical knowledge requirements in the
following subjects:
- Performance (Helicopter)
- Principles of Flight (Helicopter)
- VFR Communications"

[MartinCh]

Anyone trawling through the proposals for EASA FCL and this issue, if it actually became effective and will stay so, hm?