The safety, or otherwise of Robinson's.......

[Teefor Gage]

The Robinson Helicopter Company recently released a Safety Notice relating to concerns about Post Crash Fires.
There have been a number of cases where helicopter or light plane occupants have survived an accident only to be severely burned by fire following the accident.
To reduce the risk of injury in a postcrash fire, it is strongly recommended that a fire-retardant Nomex flight suit, gloves, and hood or helmet be worn by all occupants.
Perhaps it would be best not to fly such machines at all??
I'm sure somebody out there will want to comment ..................
Chocks away!

[Noiseboy]

"There have been a number of cases where helicopter or light plane occupants"

"Perhaps it would be best not to fly such machines at all??"


What all light planes and helicopters?

[belly tank]

"When you purchase a new or overhauled Robinson it comes with complementary 2 piece flight suit (colour to be descided by customer) and Alpha flight helmet with option to upgrade to NVG!".:D ..........But dont expect any Labour warranty on faulty items.....must be paid for by customer:{...........and if you dont like it go buy a Bell or Eurocopter he tells us:=..but he didnt expect i would get my own back at the heli expo at the cocktail party:ok:...and afterwards..........:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[Pandalet]

wait, are you being sarcastic about the complementary zoot suit and bone dome or serious? All that punctuation and smiley usage confused my poor little brain...

[Efirmovich]

Should look good arriving for lunch at le Manoir in full Nomex ! Wonder what Ray would think ?

E.

[Tango and Cash]

Doesn't inspire confidence in the Robby's crashworthiness!

[Agaricus bisporus]

The safety, or otherwise of Robinson's...

eh?

Finish the question, please!

The safety of Robinson's what, exactly???

[HillerBee]

Post crash fires isn't unique to Robinsons. Helicopter flying isn't without risks, infact it's dangerous. So everone has to decide for themself how they want to reduce the risks to a minimum.

I personally wear a helmet, nomex flight suit, gloves, leather boots. Don't consider flying without, you never know when something is going to happen. Had several engine failures all very unexpected of course.

[Teefor Gage]

Post crash fires isn't unique to Robinsons. Helicopter flying isn't without risks, infact it's dangerous. So everone has to decide for themself how they want to reduce the risks to a minimum.

Correct, everyone has to decide for themselves! But doesn't that mean that the manufacturers are just passing the buck?
Shouldn't they work harder at making machines more reliable and, to cover those "Murphy moments", shouldn't they design in crashworthiness to help preserve the occupants??????

[headsethair]

Teefor: in one of your recent posts you stated "Flying over an almost deserted beach, seeing a gorgeous woman sunbathing and landing my chopper .............."

Has anyone warned you about the dangers of women ? Let alone the hazard assessment you should carry out before trying to land your A332 near any person. Is that the A332 with the fireproof fuel option and the ejection capsule that launches if a naked flame is held near the cockpit ?

And then there's the problem of the naked OLD flame.........

[robsrich]

Oz safety people put out a little read paper on light helicopter safety.

It compares one type to another, in accident, and we have about 600 whizzing around down under.

What did they find?

The Robinson, being FAR 27 standard is many times safer than products X, Y and Z.

Other thing to note, (in an R22) if you hit so hard it busts the fuel tanks, then you are dead meat! Impact forces are beyond human tolerance.

I will dig up the references later .. and precis here.

[Teefor Gage]

Don't confuse dreams with reality - or perhaps you didn't!!

I did conduct a hazard assessment for landing an AS332 near a woman on a beach, but decided that all that would be in it for me was ......... sand!!

[REDHOTCH0PPERPILOT]

Would rather crash in my R44 than a 206. R44 has nice collapsable seats and the engine wont come crashing through the roof and through my skull.

[heliduck]

Robinsons don't kill people - people kill people.

[O27PMR]

Robsrich

I would beg to differ with your point:

"Other thing to note, (in an R22) if you hit so hard it busts the fuel tanks, then you are dead meat! Impact forces are beyond human tolerance."

Not true I'm afraid!

Having hit the deck in an R22 and watched fuel pi**ing out all over the floor from a ruptured main fuel tank..... I'm still here:ok:

[topendtorque]

"When you purchase a new or overhauled Robinson it comes with complementary 2 piece flight suit (colour to be descided by customer) and Alpha flight helmet with option to upgrade to NVG!".

i wonder where mine got to, i must ring Mr. Skeen.
BTW what is the flying suit made of?

Re 12E's we always reckon don't fly them, you're sitting on the fuel tank, which will rupture, all academic when the engine - xmon falls off and ends up in the cab?

I've seen two 47's that burnt out of 30 , that crew survived the impact but one not the fire.

R22's, never seen or heard of one that burnt that was survivable

As far as I am concerned the jury is still out on R44's, remember the famous photo of one with a tail boom cut by the M/r blade and that flew home, a/c had slightly bent skids, was U/S because of buckled firewall, i've seen a couple like that.

Re the clothing, once had a crewie used to fly in his jocks and thongs, malboro's and SLR, this was after his employer had provided him and all his colleagues with nomex suit, SPH4's and Redwings boots.

heavy jeans and full cotton or wool is good enough and get your gloves from the local western wear shop - calf roping gloves- cheap, comfortable, warm and nearly as safe as nomex.

[robsrich]

027PMR

You are very lucky - stats speaking.

Topendtorque's observation is spot on - accident stats suggest that not many survive an R22 that has caught on fire.

The cause would have to be a decent impact with something. The rarely catch on fire by comparison.

On another matter, I was painfully going through ATSB incidents over a few years - to up date a course; and noticed an extra ordinary number of control zone penetrations, ignoring ATC instructions, crossing runways when told not too; being inside CTR before getting a clearance, etc.

Now in the day of GPS; what is going wrong?

None of the other light aircraft groups have the same trend, and they out number us 10:1. So they should have heaps too - but they don't seem to as much.

Any ideas - is it a lack of maps, rusty map reading, or not having a suitable chart?

Makes us look a little dumb. The starch wing guys can look down their nose at us here??

Just an odd observation.

Go to ATSB weekly summaries, etc

[Rotorbee]

Don't ever use leather gloves as a protection against fire. Once on fire they do not let pass vapor and your hands will not be grilled but cocked. Works on lower temperatures too. Boots are not that critical because they are normaly thicker and have several layers. If you want something for your hands, use the real stuff that is out there. :eek:

[tangovictor]

Should look good arriving for lunch at le Manoir in full Nomex ! Wonder what Ray would think ?

E.

if you can afford the ridiculous, landing fee, demanded at le Manoir, you could get your man to drive up prior to your arrival, with your Gucci suits

[vaqueroaero]

I know a guy who survived a post fire crash in an R22. It wasn't the fuel tanks that broke or split, but that the fuel cap came off. He was dressed in full Nomex and a helmet. He has an incredible spirit, but is very disfigured.

I remember we went to HAI in Vegas and he came with us. A group of us were sitting in a hotel room talking about dumb stuff we had done and he walked in in just his underwear and told us to never fool around in helicopters. Point taken. A very sobering sight. It's interesting looking at his arms because where his flight suit doubled over his gloves he received no burns at all.

It's very interesting talking to him about the accident. He remembers lying on his side after the crash and as he climbed out he remembers seeing his helmet visor dripping down infront of his eyes as it melted. The other guy who was with him survived the crash and fire, but died later of his injuries. He wasn't wearing Nomex or a helmet.

[Efirmovich]

Good thinking TV !........... and he can polish the machine while we eat ! Gives him a change from cleaning the pool, hate wasting money !!!! Very practical, like it. :ok:

[topendtorque]

Some sobering thoughts here for sure, and in the other related thread, "New Robinson safety notice---"

thanks 'Rotorbee', I'll make a point of remembering that philosophy re leather gloves, never too old to learn.

I guess we thought better than nothing and we did find that it was very difficult to buy the larger size Nomex gloves and suits. Then there was the prob of the gloves leather palm inserts shrinking after about three months and new ones needed. not a good product.

'Nick' makes a good point in the other thread, however that will be shot to shreds when it is discovered that as 'Belly Tank' says, Robinson agents are handing out helmets and flight jackets - the latter of which I am sure are of the synthetic variety.

I must have a quick dig at 'Hillerbee' on the way past with his quote - "Had several engine failures all very unexpected of course". - Are you suggesting that fire might not have been an issue here?:ugh:

All in all Mr Robinson cannot get off too freely with his his rather glib safety notice. It is simply not acceptable to just have it published as a "get-out-of-jail-free-card", put some meat into it and provide the goods!

The very positive upside would then be that all pilots get to hopefully think - for at least a fleeting second - what reasons might there be for wearing flame proof material and what can I do to make my operation safer?

As far as I am aware other manufactures abstain from these sorts of comments, however it could be that Mr Robinson might be on a new wave of thinking, as it certainly is frightening to see pilots of any sort parading around in A/C in synthetic crease proof attire.

Remember the aversion to first wearing seat belts in motor cars!

[belly tank]

As topendtrq and others have said its just an arse covering excercise "bulletin" to state that in CASE of an accident and "MY FRANK ROBINSON BUILT" aircraft catches on fire after a crash, you "the pilot" should have worn this protective equipment to stop you being burnt!:} ..........LAWYERS:ouch: (in favour of Frank)....have a field party.........spare me Mr Robinson. we understand you have a monopoly in this market but be a bit realistic big fella:D .......did i hear Bell were going to design a 4 seater to compete:ok:

[Gerhardt]

I spent last week at the Robinson factory safety course and Mr. Robinson brought this subject up. I don't think the Nomex suits are meant to be a get out of jail free card for a crash, but rather another tool to improve your odds should a crash occur. Having spent several days discussing safety and watching home videos of helicopters crashing and listening to accounts of accident investigations not one person in the course (that I know of) considered it a CYA safety notice. Tim Tucker led most of the presentations and he seemed very sincere about improving pilot safety.

[bladewashout]

I agree with Gerhardt, Frank does seem very keen on safety from a personal viewpoint, the safety course itself being a prime example.

We think nothing of people donning safety gear for motorbikes or any kind of racing. HEMS crews and army all wear helmets/suits. Compared to the cost of flying, they're not overly expensive. It's just cultural, and if he's trying to change the culture, I applaud him! I'm fairly tempted to buy a suit & helmet, but safety notices are more likely to increase that temptation and turn it into a purchase.

BW

[Brilliant Stuff]

When I was at the Safety course, Pat made a point of telling us that every time a Robinson product harms a human it cuts Frank's heart.

[HELOFAN]

I appologise in advance to all those that take offence to the following comment but although I think its great to hand out all the neato things like a nomex suit & helmet, & I am sure that the purpose of them being issued is not a legal thing but having been involved in safety & root cause analysis I would have thought that this is a bandaid to the problem not a fix.
Its like saying " Hey , these little suckers catch fire after a really good impact... better wear this "
Would the better solution be that the helicopter not catch fire unless it is an impact that is beyond what the humon body tolerates.

I dont like or understand people making a fix it type of comment with out offering a solution.
To better understand the problem, what is it that is causing the fire in the first place , if its a fuel cap re-engineer it to not pop off , or double skinned fuel bladder cells or something to the like if its the tank thats rupturing.

Root cause analysis is basically asking why till you cant answer it or ask it anymore.

Is it a low rotor inertia problem that is causing the impact?...... Fix that problem too.

Why is it that the helicopter is crashing in the first place..... lets find out that.

Get all the facts in & offer some solutions before blazing the cannons.

:zzz:

HF

[HELOFAN]

I have this to ask as well

If we teach the do's and don'ts of safety at the start , would it be impractical or silly to say to a newbie student pilot, wear this stuff ( nomex gloves, suit & helmet) or might people think you are taking your career or safety a little to seriously?

What if the student pilot does this off his own back at the beginning?

If military pilots do it why not civvy pilots?

Lessons are learnt best from other peoples teaching so..........

If I turned up to my first flight in a nomex suit with all the gear would I have to endure snickers and comments from the flight line or would being safety concious be repected and understood?

[HELOFAN]

Anybody?

:confused:

HF

[HillerBee]

As I said before I always wear the full gear. And I advise students to wear the same. Not all of them do though (tells a lot about their attitude).

Since we're not in the military we can't really make it compulsory but we as instructors have to set the standard.

[HELOFAN]

Hiller Bee,
I wonder why it is that schools dont do it ...at least from what I have seen.

Why is it that schools go for the white shirt & black pants for the training.
I like the safety of the correct Personal Protective Equipment.
The uniform looks better I guess but safety is safety.

I have good reason for wanting to wear the nomex suit and dome I just dont want to have to explain why all the time or would you think from an instructors point of view that it would not be an issue?

HF

[HillerBee]

I don't think a white (polyester) shirt looks better as a flightsuit. In fact I think it looks rediculous. I consider a flightsuit the right 'uniform' for helicopter flying.

A lot of flight schools in Canada make flight suits/helmets compulsary though.

[HELOFAN]

Sorry HB thats what I mean.

Out of the flight operations sure the white poly looks fine but in operations I think the suit is more practical.
Safety first.

I guess I will just ask if it would be allowable for flight time at the school when I get there & explain my reasoning if I need to.

HF

[topendtorque]

Another sobering thought is reminding oneself of the action brought against the owners of Gunbah station in NSW when an employee – Daniel Croker- fell from his horse and was trampled, died.

The case was used to benchmark the use of hard hats for stockmen, basically the wealthy family that owned it was targeted I should say, the judge drew some criticisms as judges do, some of his findings being very hard to follow.
Check it out on google.

The upshot is that most if not all of the large pastoral companies and many others now mandate the use of helmets for their horse riding employees, and especially for quad bike or two wheel bike riders.

Quad bike accidents in the rural sector have been topical for a while as their use is fast increasing. On king Island there have a large number of fatalities; one coroner has been noted as strongly criticising a manufacturer for not making buyers of their product aware of the dangers.

I know that one pastoral stock agency – Elders – years ago used to require helmets for employees doing property inspections by helicopter and of course during BTEC all Northern Territory stock inspectors (70 odd) were kitted out with nomex suits and gloves and SPH4’s and of course Redwings boots, but the boot bit was after a bit of a – ahem - shonk.

I do know of one flying school that gets their students kitted out in nomex suits, as we all know there seem to be plenty of accidents in this area. It would seem quite simple for schools to have suits, gloves and helmets avbl for hire by students.

There is a good opening for distributors of such gear do deals with flight schools, rub each others back so to speak. Anyone thinks that it’s a bit silly turning up in nomex suit, try riding around in the oz sunlight all day with a helmet instead of your personalised Akubra.

There would be plenty of initiatives that manufacturers and or schools could exhibit to promote such use, rewards for various activities for example.

[HELOFAN]

There is a good opening for distributors of such gear do deals with flight schools, rub each others back so to speak. Anyone thinks that it’s a bit silly turning up in nomex suit, try riding around in the oz sunlight all day with a helmet instead of your personalised Akubra.

I am not sure what you mean by this Topend, as in I dont quite understand what you are getting at....are you pro or con the idea of it being done in Oz?

Cheers

HF

[topendtorque]

HF
Very much pro the idea and suggesting that schools and others could do lots to promote it.
I'm saying that it's a lot easier to wear a nomex suit than it is to wear a helmet without sun shades all day in the sun. although having said that i am aware that there are now various brands of horseriding-helmet-plus-shady-brims coming onto the market. Very hard though to get one to conform to some of the saftey standards that prevail as in motorbike helmets.

As an aside the ability to tuck and roll ones head when falling from height is a different factor from when falling from a bike and sliding.

As a point in interest you should measure up your old SPH4 against such standards. bloody hopeless!

There could be a bit of mix and match, I.E. a nomex waistcoat idea with heavy denim jeans. One area that is often overlooked is the socks, you don't run far when your achilles heel is being melted into by burning plastic.

Not being trendsetters here, Genghis Khan had his troops wear silk when going into battle because he worked out that it used to often go in with the spear and was a lot cleaner than other fabric. Being a bit of a mercenary he worked out that silk helped his manpower-return-to-battle statistics considerably

[canterbury crusader]

If your a worried about it just wear cotton, jeans and a thick cotton shirt. They will not melt on you, have a look at what nomex flight suits are made of and you will find its mostly cotton. But remember its not fire proof, if you get fuel on you its going to hurt, irrespective of what you are wearing. The helmet will help you to stay conscious so you can get out before it gets warm. Just common sense really, like seat belts, life jackets, CO2 detectors, the list goes one.

[brushfire21]

Quote from RotorBee:
"Don't ever use leather gloves as a protection against fire. Once on fire they do not let pass vapor and your hands will not be grilled but cocked. Works on lower temperatures too. Boots are not that critical because they are normaly thicker and have several layers. If you want something for your hands, use the real stuff that is out there."

I am going to say that nomex is a good product and if one can afford it, then buy it, but having having something fire resistant is better than nothing at all. Leather gloves have been used for a long time in the wildland firefighting business (bush fires to others). I have not heard of the hands getting "cooked" as RotorBee mentioned, but very possible.

I follow LOD's (Line of Duty Deaths) and injuries being I am part of the wildland FF forces out there. I have not heard of many reports if any at all that mentioned leather gloves made the situation worse. Have seen many many pictures of fellow FF's with burn injuries, and usually the hands and feet are typically covered with leather and have less injuries to those areas of the bodies that were only wearing a single layer of FF gear (pants for USFS as an exampe).

Not tryig to stir the pot, but Leather and Nomex have there place. FYI, last I knew the smelters still use leather for hand protection..... just my .005 cents worth.

[Rotorbee]

@ brushfire
You are certainly right with your point of view regarding the gloves used for firefighting, but try to fly with them.:}
I refere to the tight fitting type of glove, the ones the gentlemen driver uses. It is completely different, if you deal with a bush fire - wood - and a "helicopter fire" - fuel. If your gloves a soaked with fuel they burn like a candle and that will cook your hands. The real stuff will keep the heat away from your hands longer and dry hands will support more heat. Hot vapor is really bad for your skin, because water vapor contains a huge amount of energie. That is all there is to it. No gloves at all is certainly worse.

[Brilliant Stuff]

May I add that the Bone Dome also is very good at saving you hearing from the high pitch your turbines make. Which (so I am told) the normal headsets are unable to protect you from since the rest of your head is not protected.

I am wearing an Apha heli helmet at work and am very happy with it and felt no illeffects in this desert heat we have been having recently. Some of my colleagues are suffering from sweat running down from up top thanks to the leather inserts but mine has some form of cloth which soaks it all up. So for me it's a no brainer, also you could airbrush them which would maybe make them more acceptable.

Now were can I buy a blue mirror sunvisor for my helmet?:E

[topendtorque]

A lot of flight schools in Canada make flight suits/helmets compulsary though.

That is an excellent idea and one which could be lobbied for in OZ where there is already a regular gathering of the instructing clan with CASA FOI's (annually, i think ?). All it needs is for the boss to say - around here this is what happens - etc -etc. high standards from respected people invoke high standards of hero worship - and - imitation.

I am constantly amazed at those that do not wear helmets, whose business it is to work amongst the leaves, all despite their Insurance underwriters, brokers and ops manuals constant referral to the use of helmets.

Blue mirror? no idea, ask a test cricketer, they seem to have em.

[HELOFAN]

Thanks Guys for your input.

I may look into the co$t of a suit & helmet & if its too far outta my reach for the moment then look at getting all the right gear in cotton.

Can anyone reccommend where those types of supplies can be found?
1 stop shop ?

As for the a problem with leather , the main issue is that they will take the heat and transfer it straight to the skin & cook you & weld them to the skin.

Its kinda like welding , by the time you feel the heat on your hands, there is sooo much heat still transfering/radiating through that you are going to blister & best get them gloves off asap cause more heat is coming through.
Course proper welding gloves & sensativity to touch is not in the same sentence.


Thanks again

HF

[brushfire21]

I have to say, this has been an interesting thread, and its great to see everyone bring there knowledge and background to the group.

Just following up here with something I found on a similiar topic, and it seems that some, either hate or love Nomex. But one thing that I don't think anyone would disaggree with is, that its not a fixall.

In fact it can give you a false sense of security. Its only a single layer usually in flight suits, and it can still melt when in contact with fire. It just doesn't stick to you when it does (like most other synthetics), and extinguishes itself when the flame is removed. Race car fire suits have multiple layers, usually mixed with Kevlar to give additional protection.

Same thing with gloves. Straight single layer nomex gloves won't protect you after the first flash or fire typically, especially if a flammable liquid gets on it, the Nomex will still burn. I have seen it demonstrated several times, both in training and in actual fires with victims suffering major burns. The nomex gloves that do work are again multilayered with another product (leather, kevlar or other formulated material) to give it some sustainability. Nomex is expensive, and you may need to look at everything and do a cost versus safety analysis.

Drawing from the fire service, structural fire gear has multiple layers of fire protection; outer fire resistive layer (PBI, nomex etc, insulation barrier(s) and vapor barrier, (and air gaps between). You will never find a product that can do this with a single layer. Some wildland firefighters like myself, use a nomex shirt and pants, with a long sleeve shirt and cotton pants to create a second layer. Many tests have been done by several gov't organizations, that have shown adding the second layer is saving lives, as apposed to those that only wear a single layer of nomex over bare skin. All I am saying is that a normal single layer flight suit may or may not provide the protection you need or want........ A fire is a fire in the end...... just the amount and time lapse of the fire is whats different.

Here is some reading from another source if you have a few minutes, gives a nice breakdown from a fellow pilots point of view along with some followups:
http://www.ipilot.com/forum/message.aspx?pid=84345

Last note: Not sure why everyone is on the band wagon about leather being unacceptable because of "vapor" burns. Check your sources before saying something your not all 100% sure about. There are different kinds and grades of leather gloves, and some that will wick away moisture along with being slim line. If your having a situation that is causing that much heat and fire, my gut feeling is that standard nomex gloves would not fair any better, and very possibly worse. Once a liquid gets on a glove (someone mentioned fuel being spilled on them from above), all bets are off and anything goes. You may not experiance vapor burns, but the flammable liquid burns from the fuel will certainly not help the situation. With a layered Nomex glove, that may be a different story, and I would agree that it would be better than leather anyday. Check out the different products and see for yourself, and do whats best for you. And while your at it, you may want to look at nomex hoods to cover your face/heads along with socks and underwear..... Now that I have put my neck back on the chopping block, chop away!

[topendtorque]

Brushfire
Thankyou for your constructive input and that of the extra reading.

I think you're saying that two layers is relatively easy to acheive and a commonsense approach. Say long sleeved heavy cotton shirt and jeans under a nomex coverall is a combo that I used to use comfortably enough in fairly strong ambient temperatures. The bloody nomex seems to have shrunk of late!

I note in another thread that 'Whirls' is into leather fairly seriously???:cool:

Some have said that helmets help allay hearing loss, well the close fitting helmets I would say yes but the SPH models that I wore for years seem to drum a lot and let lots of noise in. The vibes seem to do just as much damage via the hard bone behind the ear as directly through the ear. For the direct noise, noise suppressing earpieces can be fitted to most helmets nowadays

Passing medicals now is a real chore, with a couple of funny stroies to tell some day.

One thing we used do was encourage people to think about getting out of their seat belt buckle for example, if they have just woken up after a bit of a knock and their fingers are already starting to arc backwards from a festering fire, think about it.

Also what gear do they carry within arms reach of their sitting position, given that they may not be able to move. Immediate emerg gear under the seat NO! NO!

The worst one I see in that line is the small fire extinguishers mounted at the front of the cabin, well away from the reach of a broken back.

The list can go on but I must say that I believe the R22 is a very survivable A/C as long as it not used as a lawn dart.

[HELOFAN]

Ok so after an hour of research this is what I have come up with.

I have gone for Mil spec as that is the common standard, not cause I want to look like I am in the military again or for the wanna be's. Just practical here.

Nomex/Kevlar flight suit ( overalls ) Mil spec seem to be available from no more that $200.
Most colors , orange, Blue, good ole Olive drab.
About $190 from a company that makes them for the military.

Surprising , I thought they would be really expensive but not so....I dont think $200 is bad for what you get.

Nomex Flight Gloves, Mil spec , lots a colors and types with Leather palms & fingers for sensativity/touch ( palm sides only ) back is full nomex.

$30 or less.

Again I am impressed.

Flight Helmets there are so many types here that you can get lost looking but again if we go for Mil spec ( which by thet way seems like is not as good as some of the civilian models because of mics & speakers only ) you pay around $750.
Add about $50 for the civilian model ( mil spec on bucket not electronics )

Start at about $300 and end around $1000 or so for some crazy top end gear.
Dual visors clear and , mirror , grey smoke , yellow.
Lots to choose from including second hand , rebuilt new militarty types or old.
if the Mil use them then I am happy to as well, its just a brain bucket in the end.
needs to be comfortable try before you buy, & practical , weight is an issue so take a look at its weight ,

To me I dont care what color it is ( I ride road bikes & looks isnt as important as what it will do for me when it is supposed to ).
so white , black , green , blue ...I dont care but again you can get it in many colors, white & green are the popular ones.

By the way , you spend about the same sort of money for a bike helmet but no Comms thrown in .
Boots, well dang, if we have come this far lets look at boots too.

I think black is the common color, mil spec or not , comfort is really the major issue.
Ankle support and the higher the better for protection too
leather upper and a good non slip sould is about as tech as I am gonna go
here.

Cost .. any where from $30 to about $60.

So its up to you in the end how much you want to spend on PPE ( Personal Protective Equipment )

All gear has some sort of warrenty.

You may never need it but if you do I bet you will be either glad you spent a little more on the good gear or will be wishing that you did.

Ask the Military trained guys..... would you want to do it with out the gear or prefered that you did?

Any comments on the gear whilst we are on the subject , I would love to hear your thoughts on all of this.

:cool: I think I will go shopping for some gear now that I know the costs, because I know the benefits.

HF