NZ Heli Pilots pay

[slackman]

Anyone willing to devulge their pay rate (worked out as a daily rate)
and type of work and aircraft flown.
Any info would be helpfull. Thanks
Seems to be a lot of variance in NZ

[rotorboy]

I hear they pay in Lamb and DB. If your lucky they give you a place to stay.

RB:ok:

[Dis-Mystery of Lift]

The Lamb is great!!Both cooked and running:ok:
But if it's not Spieghts then I'm not going to work!!!

[bell hater]

So you really want to be depressed eh? Well New Zealand helicopter rates have to be some of the lowest in the world period… that’s why so man kiwis are flying else ware, to give you and idea flying a AS355 down in the south island. The very top rate is a poultry $ 44,000.00 pacific paso (NZD) and that’s for the privilege of flying 6 days a week with 1 day off (12-14 hour duty days)… so if that hasn’t got you salivating then you can also do a lot of unpaid miles in your own vehicle with no meal allowances…. After all that you will be delighted to see at the end of the year, the company has been making record profits (hourly rates are running $ 2500.00 - $ 3000.00 per flight hour) oh and also if you want to go contract (good for you going it alone) you might get $ 200.00 - $ 250.00 per day, no flight pay but only half if you don’t fly (but that’s more than fair considering that you cant work for anybody else that day)….

Hating bells and the New Zealand helicopter industry

[crispy69]

What you mean some of us actually get paid????? :eek:

I might have to go and have a chat with the boss:(

[rotorboy]

Dis-Mystery
Do they all look this good ?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/jfkak/sheep.jpg

Or is this one for high time pilots only?

RB:ok:

[Te_Kahu]

No, those are reserved for the bosses/owners of those mentioned by Bell Hater :suspect:

TK

[Dis-Mystery of Lift]

Ah the Old Waioru Blonde......Brings back memories:cool:

Pilot Wages as follow's

New Cpl Work for love to get a little Ferry time.For every 100hrs worked you get 0.5 hrs Flying.

C Cat maybe $25 to $30 per flying Hour

B Cat $30 to $40 per flying hour

A Cat $200 + per Hour,+ Milelage

CPL Commercial $50 to $100 per flying Hour

Salary's from about $150 to $400 a day depending on experience and type of work.

This is only based on my experience and pay scales.:ok:

[Chairmanofthebored]

Instructor - $30 to $50 per hour but you need an instructors rating obviously. At $14K that is 280hrs to break even...

Ag work is paying up to $75K a year but its like Bell hater says: work 7 days a week and no time off. NZ has no flight and duty restrictions like the modern world and you are going to get ridden like that sheep...

Medivac/SAR guys on the 222 or BK seem to be starting at $75K and might be on 4 on, 4 off (if you are working the BK) or a similar type of roster on the Duece but expected to be on standby for the rest of the time on a pager. Funnel runs the 222 on a 24hr standby with 2.5 pilots. The 0.5 pilot is the manager. The BK guys are flying up to 90hrs a year and the duece is about 200hrs. Its boring and not that well paid compared to aussie or offshore for CHC, Abu Dhabi etc...

I am not sure about day rates for contract/casual guys but one North Is. tour operator paid $50 a day and $50 a flight hour. Only flying 1.6hrs a day on average means your 12hr day is paid at less than the award wage for being a waiter.

Consider your medical is costing up to $200 a year and twice that if you are 40, wear and tear on your car plus fuel at $1.80 a litre, no per diems (food), no health care nor retirement package, no loss of licence, no income protection and 12hrs a day for 6 days a week. Its FARKED!!!!!!!

[BigMike]

For those reading the above posts, just remember the figures are in NZ dollars ($1 NZ = 0.61 US cents!)

The NZ industry is very poor when it comes to salarys, with the atitude that "you should be grateful for having a job" still the norm. Too many starey eyed new pilots, thanks to the student loan scheme, ready to work for nothing.

[EMS R22]

NZ pay is a joke !

No wonder we are all buggering off to Canada , PNG etc.

Machine hourly rates are also some off the lowest in the world.:ugh:

[slackman]

thanks for the interesting responses , just reminds me I had better go and feed the bosses sheep,in fact I will give them an extra slice each, that way I will get better productivity from them, eh BOSS!!!!!Today 19:51

[ems300]

Big mike sums it up nicely i think, there are so many people out there now with cpl's and thats it wanting to work for a six pack of speights and a roast every second week, while people that are flying get a six pack of speights and a roast every week!! so that saves the boss a six pack and one of his girlfreinds a week!! so many came through the loan scheme that it has made it had for anyone else to get into at the mo!!:ugh:

[feelerup]

Some info here not quite right , THL on AS355 pays experienced pilots from 54k to about 75k , 5 or 6 day week depending on deal struck .They are reducing pay rates as new drivers are taken on by hiring lowish time guys.
Auckland rates are better for experience , 75k plus . Recent 2000 hour guy taken on a rescue AS350 started on 85k!.
Heliworks pays min of 75k in Queenstown.
The minimum pay I know of is 45k in Auckland area for under 2000 hours.
I know it sucks compared to working overseas but not everyone wants to tour to ****holes like PNG .
There are a lot of pilots in NZ making 100k but they have been in those jobs for years and they don't move round like Canada where its seasonal.
The jobs that get advertised are generally the lower paid ones , the decent ones are closely guarded.
Why don't a few post their pays here , I'll make about 70k this year doing part time .
Also New Zealand does have flight and duty times like modern countries , amazing eh !!

[bell hater]

Perhaps, but your info doesn’t sound any better than mine… so I am assuming that you have a little inside knowledge of pay scales, AS355 (down on the South Island) paying $75K…. you have to be dreaming, maybe a few years ago? Only the very last of the old brigade (Tourism holdings days and before the “quick fall” in pay scales) would be getting any ware close to that. But are they really? As the flight and duty day has a CAA approved extension for 14 hours every now and then plus a fully worked new manual allowing a 6 day on 1 day off roster (as apposed to the old 5 and 2) and don’t forget all the benefits that have had the “Magic’s” wand waved over them to make them disappear… as for starting on $54K I don’t think so mate, what about the 1500 hour pilot who started on $30K. That company has gone from the top echelon to the bottom rung… just ask the chief pilot (oh, that’s right he left). Feelerup, what about the MD500 that is operating around the southern lakes area, and the pilot who is flying it getting paid less than a living wage… its kind of like a sweat shop for Helicopter pilots. But I can’t really blame the operators or the industry (for poor conditions) you have to blame pilots who will accept less.... and yes there are a few good jobs in New Zealand that pay OK (not really good) but if you took an average across the industry it would be vary sad indeed.

[BigMike]

"But I can’t really blame the operators or the industry (for poor conditions) you have to blame pilots who will accept less.... "

That is the problem.

[Chairmanofthebored]

Mr Selfish,

No offence intended. I too enjoy the odd 3am approach to minimas and a winch off the rocks at Piha must be great. The 'boring' comment comes from flying maybe 100hrs a year with a fair amount of those hospital transfers. Sure its a quality 100hrs for the most, but its a lot of hurry up, get ready and wait. The money is OK but you jump the gap to the great western island and you are now pushing $110 Aussie for the same job ($130,000 NZD) and a whole lot of benefits for the family. Additionally, it must be annoying to sit and watch jobs you should be dispatched to on TV1's 6pm news. The whole Rescue Helicopter system in NZ is a house of cards supported by communities blinded by the selfishness of a couple of the New Zealands industries greatest 'players'. They are laughing all the way to the bank on the backs of great pilots and crewmen like yourself. Answer this question: why is the Auckland BK not stationed at the airport or close by, where it could access the departure and arrival proceedures instead of sitting in the clag at the Port, declining calls due weather?

But the issue of wages is interesting. Thanks to the cleverness of some Flight Schools and their construction of government approved aviation degrees and diplomas, we now have more pilots than needed, in more debt and low wages. I've observed that due the accessibility of loans, the present route to a commercial job is now similar to the US. Buy a job by getting an instructors rating tacked onto the licence and worry about the $90K dept later. The $30hr will pay that off in 3000hrs of revenue flying. You will get your hours up on the backs of other new pilots who will opt for the high debt load so you can reach your 'B' Cat and then make $50hr. This saturation of low time instructors makes it impractical for experienced pilots to get Instructor Ratings and teach pilots and impart some of their hard earned lessons.

And the issue of Flight and Duty is bull****. You can fly all night on a medevac call for flappy and then have the morning shift call in sick and be required to stay on the pager all day, and fly if required. How can you run a 24hr operation with 3 pilots and give everyone their time off, sick leave and decent rest periods? OH! I know... you consider a day at work that you didn't fly or was sitting on the pager, to be a day OFF. Sure you couldn't have a beer or go to the beach or leave town but you got paid for it right? Wrong, salary = $75K flat. Nothing for OT.
If you are working for a company with nice red helicopters, you can expect to instruct all day and do frost protection all night, instruct all day, frost all night....

As for the PNG guys. They are on about $80K aussie or $100K NZD. It wasn't too ****ty when I was there, even the tent camps were comfy and I never had to cook or clean for myself. When a guys comes home for his 26 days off - he is OFF work. $80K for 6 months of work is not too bad.

Pilots really don't have a choice to accept less because the industry is so unfair to the pilots. A regulatory authority allowing the operators to dictate the standards of their OP's manual is retarded. Every other regulatory authority on the planet specifies stringent F&D requirements for Op's manuals. Take the Australian system as an example of the worlds most complicated F&D system!
Apply fair F&D and all of a sudden you need more pilots for more jobs.

Great to be chatting about this. Regards to all...

[BigMike]

What a few people don't realise, not only is the company paying you for your experience, they are paying you for your "Time"
Sit down and work out the duty hours you have worked in a year, then devide that by your salary.
The hourly rate might give you a bit of a scare...

[fu 24 950]

Q, bell Hater Who was the Last Chief pilot and when did he leave / where did he go

[bell hater]

Fu 24 950 how do I put this; seeing on your profile that you are in Hong Kong you may get it, the ex chief pilot is working many “Miles” way in a tropical (malaria filled) swamp

[feelerup]

He hasn't gone yet , but off to New Brittain .
They are having trouble attracting a replacement as the "package" is woefull.
Yes THL upper rates are for the longer term pilots . The 1500 hour pilot on 30 k , actually about 35k . The two recent ski plane pilots taken on with 100 hour heli time are on about 30k to start. Not too bad when you consider straight onto twin time.
I actually agree that pay rates are not great in NZ , but its not just aviation rates , its NZ pay rates in general.

[bell hater]

He hasn't gone yet , but off to New Brittain .
The 1500 hour pilot on 30 k , actually about 35k

I stand corrected, 30K or 35K not a great deal of difference…. but from those wages they better get hustling on the Polaroid’s, oh that’s right they have to pay commission (to the company) on them too! That’s enough from me about this particular company

Bell

[fu 24 950]

Thanks for the reply

[Steve76]

I have to say that I have enjoyed all the comments so far. COB, Big Mikes and Feelerup's comments are right on the money. The comment about wages in general being low in NZ are very accurate. With a half decent house starting at $350K in Auckland and not far off elsewhere; a lot of guys like myself who have been struggling to get the experience overseas have left NZ and come back to a country we can no longer afford. Even a coffee starts at 50% more than what you pay in the US...

If you are looking to return to NZ and hoping to buy a bit of land and still dream of a batch at the beach, then you better do your homework before heading back. Wages are stunted in relation to the cost of living, housing and fuel and consumer goods and I think the average man in NZ (esp. Auckland) needs a pay raise of 30%. Inflation is running at 4% and how many pilots working in NZ have had a pay raise to keep their wage inline with inflation?

The Australian market is a better working environment, its a shame the flying is not so entertaining as NZ and the crays harder to find!:ok:

[NotHomeMuch]

So you really want to be depressed eh? Well New Zealand helicopter rates have to be some of the lowest in the world period… that’s why so man kiwis are flying else ware, to give you and idea flying a AS355 down in the south island. The very top rate is a poultry $ 44,000.00 pacific paso (NZD) and that’s for the privilege of flying 6 days a week with 1 day off (12-14 hour duty days)… so if that hasn’t got you salivating then you can also do a lot of unpaid miles in your own vehicle with no meal allowances…. After all that you will be delighted to see at the end of the year, the company has been making record profits (hourly rates are running $ 2500.00 - $ 3000.00 per flight hour) oh and also if you want to go contract (good for you going it alone) you might get $ 200.00 - $ 250.00 per day, no flight pay but only half if you don’t fly (but that’s more than fair considering that you cant work for anybody else that day)….
Hating bells and the New Zealand helicopter industry

Maybe BH is chicken to ask for more seeing that the top rate is a "POULTRY" sum! Or maybe the "WARE'S" he wanted could not be found in else :E . Get with it, if you (and others) are incapable of using correct spelling and grammar, then that could well be a cause of being taken to the cleaners by certain operators. It gets a tad tiresome seeing all the bleating going on about low salaries but if one does not have the self confidence in negotiating the right salary (I am on a 100K+ in NZ at the moment) then live with what is offered.

[Steve76]

NotHomeMuch. Dat's empressive r u highring anytyme suen?

Cheers.

[southboy]

Feelerup seems to have gone into cloud his head that is.
Things down south are more like Bellhaters comments.
pilots should take after rats leave a sinking ship.

[bell hater]

Oh dearly me… I better crawl back under my rock now that the grammar police have arrive to spit venom at those who dare defile the English language…. It’s a funny thing the internet by it’s vary nature anarchistic, think about that for a minute NotHomeMuch. You are correct it is your own responsibility to negotiate a better deal for your self and that is precisely what I have done and advise others to-do… if you actually read my post before trying (badly) so call me out, you would have read this….. “But I can’t really blame the operators or the industry (for poor conditions) you have to blame pilots who will accept less.... and yes there are a few good jobs in New Zealand that pay OK (not really good) but if you took an average across the industry it would be vary sad indeed.” So thanks for pointing out my spelling and grammar problems... With your $100,000.00 you might be able to find something more interesting to do that proof read my dribble….. (jackass)

[slackman]

Well NOTHOMEMUCH 100k plus.Thats "Magic" you are not the General manager are u or perhaps the owner of the company.
Or perhaps you fly by day and gigilo by night.Thats probably why your not home much.I knew there was something funny about u
Maybe you might even have shares in an Inglish Collige
Whatever it is you are just too clever for us normal kiwi pilots

[canterbury crusader]

Nothomemuch never actually said hes a pilot eh, that would explain the money.

Share and share alike I say.

[NotHomeMuch]

Struck a raw nerve, BH, now that you have to sink to name calling. I presume that you dribble from only one side of your mouth as you do not seem to be level headed:} By the by, your spelling has not improved even though you are trying to use big words!

slackman, can't say I have ever met you though given your diatribe (look in a dictionary for the meaning), I probably wouldn't want to. And no, I don't own the company or partake in nefarious nocturnal activities.

But we are straying from the point so I will leave you all to carry on wallowing in self pity about perceived poor salaries and working conditions.

[ZK-Pilot]

Probably by your wife's request if your posts are anything to go by:ugh:

[Steve76]

Not there much; what are you talking about? Nocturnal activities, company owning??
I don't know you either but given the fact you worked for Hevilift in PNG and know a bit about Mil's, it shouldn't be hard to track you down. There are only so many guys with that resume. Please don't resort to facetious comments regarding my opinion because you haven't contributed anything except to try and big note yourself to us regarding your substancial salary.

Regards.

[sheep shagger]

The anonymous cheap shots at each other & pull ups on grammer/spelling make you look like juveniles with nothing better to do & detract from what could be informative for some.

[Te_Kahu]

Helicopter Pilots
EMS/SAR, Instrument Rated Command
Auckland Rescue Helicopter Trust
Expressions of interest are invited from highly motivated applicants for the
above position.
Pilots need to have minimum of 2000 hours (1500 helicopter), CPL (H)
instrument rating (H) and 50 hours actual IMC. ATPL (H), SPIFR rating,
Instructor rating, EMS/SAR, twin engine, hoist and NVG experience would be
an advantage.
I have heard that these positions will pay around the $100-K mark (salary & other stuff)
TK

[feelerup]

Sorry I took so long to get back, too busy boring holes in the ozone and making lots of dosh in , wait for it , NEW ZEALAND !!!!!
Anyway to the poor boy in southland , I assume he's flying for DICK in his 500 ( c that is ) , there is no way you have more than 500 hours,and, for that experience level $25000 would be great . Fresh lawyers get that after 4-5 years uni.
And , yes, I do have INSIDE knowledge on THL payscales (magic showed me so there ).
Right , ok, some of you seem to think I am dreaming of pay scales , those that doubt are all inexperienced , I see you fuming because you are all owed a fantastic job because you are all COMMERCIAL PILOTS , Jesus you must be good , after all it took nearly a year to get so qualified.
Wake up and realise that you won't get a great job unless your Dad is a pilot as well (think about how it seems to be generational). A new pilot isn't in demand and won't get good pay unless Louisa likes you.
Get a few hours and a resume that doesn't say CPL(H) R22 125 hours
H369 3 hours
and you will be starting to realise that you are owed nothing just because you have a licence.
OK, pilots earning $100,000
As we have seen Westpac want drivers at $100.000 the ones there employed by Helilink earn nearly that now (you know what I'm talking about doing all that winching at Piha).
A Vertol has gotta be worth that.
A BK doing wires gets that.
Alfie , you reading this ?
Dave K you didn't quit PNG for $50,000 and a R44 rating.
Neil S has never flown for free

There is a common thread here , EXPERIENCE .
It gets reasonable pay in the NZ scheme of things and you are home most nights , all wingers just wait , get ratings and stick time , and you may just reach the holy grail , otherwise, go back punching nails.

( this is really gonna piss you off EH )

[bell hater]

Not there much; what are you talking about? Nocturnal activities, company owning??
I don't know you either but given the fact you worked for Hevilift in PNG and know a bit about Mil's, it shouldn't be hard to track you down. There are only so many guys with that resume. Please don't resort to facetious comments regarding my opinion because you haven't contributed anything except to try and big note yourself to us regarding your substancial salary.
Regards.

Well said Steve

[MCA]

This is an interesting topic; from personal experience I earned about $60,000.00 and change when used to fly a squirrel on the south island… I think that times have changed and the boys are getting a little more these days… as they seam to get a scheduled pay rise to keep above inflation. Feelurp that is pretty intriguing about those high paid jobs, I did hear a figure on the BK power line work and was impressed by it. And I also had no idea the Westpac guys were making that much. Also mate Dick sold the 500 and got a brand new 44 :ok:

[NotHomeMuch]

feelerup - well said.

Steve76, post edited, comments meant for slackman. Hevi Lift/Mil-8s - maybe - but do remember that PNG is not the only place where Mil-8s are flown by Western pilots.

Big note re salary? Why not, work for a good company that looks after it's staff, pays well and if I got it right on the salary front what's the big deal? Instead of boring all with another thread on how poorly heli pilots are paid, the time was spent negotiating.

[Steve76]

Not home much: fair enough. I am not overly impressed by a $100K NZD salary but it is larger than the usual in NZ. If you can command that, then good for you. It's got to be good for the NZ scene and sets a great precedent for the future. Unfortunately, given the fact that none of us know exactly what you do, where you work or even what sector of the industry pays that salary; means the rest of us are unable to set it as a standard for future wage negotiations.

Everyone should remember that $100,000 NZD only equals (a generous...)$61,900 USD, 69,900 CAD, $81,300 AUD and $32,800 GBP. These are all very average wages for pilots in those respective countries. It means that for a well trained and highly experienced pilot (like NHM: ex-Hevilift, mediums etc..) who returns or works in the NZ industry; $100K NZD should be starting figure to recompense these guys for their experience.

NZ is very fortunate to have such a vast and respected pool of talent that has largely been trained overseas. If these 4 - 10000hr pilots were overseas they would be paid well more than the sums mentioned above.

Additionally, from conversations with colleagues employed on the Westpac BK's, I am told you will not be starting on $100K. More like $75K NZD.
I don't know about OT but if I speculated that OT is paid at $350 a day that would mean an additional 71 shifts a year. That is an average of what SAR/EMS operators pay elsewhere and to earn that amount would require a total 3000hrs/year of duty @ 12hrs a shift. Your 9 - 5 worker only clocks up 2000hrs a year. It's a lot of long days at work watching Discovery channel :)

No wonder we suffer AID's.

[Te_Kahu]

Steve76

If the total package for the new jobs at Westpac Auckland is going to be around the $100-K mark, and you are saying the starting salary is going to be around the $75-K mark. What would you expect the bits of the package to be to make it up to $100-K.

TK

[canterbury crusader]

I would guess among others a phone, car. still a way to go to $25k though

[Steve76]

I haven't even seen an ad for the job. If someone can post a link or the actual ad...

Car and phone? Are we all talking about the same industry. Why would they give you a phone and pay for you to drive to work? Possible but unlikely.

I think it is best to call one of the pilots directly and ask them. As far as I know they have no health benefit programme or retirement package. But that is just speculation. I really do doubt the car, phone etc, since these guys want temp pilots to pay for their own endorsement on the BK to earn a couple of hundred dollars a shift doing part time.

Someone must know.

[belly tank]

found this

Contact:
Position description is available at http://www.rescuehelicopter.org.nz
Lodgement: Auckland Rescue Helicopter Trust, PO Box 2252, Auckland, NZ or [email protected]

Details:
Expressions of interest from highly motivated applicants for helicopter pilots. Pilots need to have minimum of 2000 hours (1500 helicopter), CPL (H), instrument rating (H) and 50 hours actual IMC. ATPL (H), SPIFR rating, instructor rating, EMS / SAR, twin engine, hoist and NVG experience would be an advantage.

[Te_Kahu]

The website is where I first lifted the info from.
I did a little more ferreting around and understand that the package for the new positions will likely include things like super, medical, training & insurances (don't know exactly what)
S76.
Who has to pay for their own BK rating to do temp work :(
TK

[kwikenz]

I thought the grand plan for the ARHT after leaving Link was to get a 412? Latterly I'd heard it became a 365... now its back to being a BK. Is the BK a temporary measure or is the fundraising for the 412 now being spent on the much cheaper machine?

Curious.

[slackman]

I see a few mentions of a low wage offer for the CP role down in the
South of NZ.I hear it is looking after over 12 helicopters and the pilots that go with it.
Does anyone have any idea what a full CP role should be worth.Or your opinion on what you think it is worth.
Wether it be NZ or elsewhere
If someone takes the role at the figure we are hearing over here then he is selling out the other pilots.

[feelerup]

Even the CAA have said its worth $100,000 , the responsibility is huge .
Multiple bases and challenging working environment combined with a fairly low pilot experience level means they won't get anyone for peanuts.
Look at the accidents and incidents over the last couple of years and figure if you want the stress.
Another Westcoaster about to resign and double income up north eh .
:ok:

[ems300]

i hear 2 gone from qtown 1 going form mt c, 1 form coast, plus possibly more on the way as well!! it would have to woth well over the $100,000 for all that!!!:ugh:

[Scrub Cutter]

ems , who is going from the Coast ?

[Ned-Air2Air]

Interesting thread this one.

Mr Selfish - Just about spot on with your info about ARHT. They are going to be using either a BK117 from one operator of a 365N from another operator as an interim measure until the recently ordered new generation 412 arrives. Thats supposed to be the new version with glass cockpit etc etc. If all goes to plan from here then it is into an AW139. And NO it wont be leased from Airwork :=

Canterbury Crusader - Phone and Car := := Nope, would highly doubt it. Only ones who have cars there at this stage are Brownie and Rea and I think one other. As far as I know Dave Walley, Chief Peelot for the new operation doesnt even have a company car, at least last time I was down there he didnt. I dont even think operators like Careflight in OZ give their pilots company cars.

Feelerup - Was chatting with KM the other day and we had a good chat about the reasons he was leaving THL. Main one is sick of the responsibility and making no inroads on trying to get decent machinery to replace those "nice shiny new modern spick and span" AS355s provided by Airwork. Just wants to go back to flying instead of spending all day in an office dealing with "crap". Cant blame him really. The company he is going to work for is a good one, running some 206Ls and 206Bs in the nice part of PNG.

There are not that many companies in NZ who can afford to pay decent salaries. Here is a list of who I think are the ones to work for, in no particular order. Feel free to comment on any of them.

HNZ
Helicopter Line
Fox & Franz Helicopter Services (James Scott)
Over the Top (Louisa)
Glacier Southern Lakes (Dear Old Pat)
Airwork
ARHT
Flappy
Columbia NZ
Faram Helicopters
Beck Helicopters
Garden City Helicopters
Nelson Helicopters
Wanganui Aero Work
HeliPro
Skywork (Roger Stevenson)
Hele Tranz (Tony Monk)
Heliflight (Andy McKay)
Advanced Flight (Keith Stephens)
Heliworks (Alfie & Crew)
Southern Lakes Helicopters (Hannibal)
Oceania (Josh & Jonathon)

I have prob left a few out but these are ones who have more than one machine that I can think of at the moment.

From what I have seen the best way for anyone to get a decent job is to do your training here, bugger off overseas for a year or three, get some decent experience and hours under their belt and then come back home. Heck some never come back. Look at Lyle Mudford, used to fly 500s in the old deer hunting days, was then a base manager in Africa for CHC and now flying the Cranes in Sarawak for Erickson alongside other kiwis such as Peter Avery, making some very good money as well :ok: :ok:

Other experienced pilots have also bailed from NZ and are doing the tour option. Armin Egli, IJ (ian Johnston) etc are all commuting to PNG and back. Columbia Helicopters in the USA also have some kiwis there, Stu Feaver to name but one.

No matter where you go in the world, if you have minimum number of hours no one is going to just hand you a job. In the old days newbies would have no hesitation going to work for an operator as a loader driver for a year or two and get the chance to build up hours by ferrying machines, these days however the general attitude I see at the flight schools is that they are "owed" a job by an operator because they have just spent $35K or more on a CPL. And in my opinion that licence sometimes means ****e anyway depending on who your instructor was as the "experience" level of some instructors here extends to the hills around ardmore, unless you train with someone like Bruce Harvey or Simon Expensive-Flowers in Wanaka who have been there and done that.

Anyway just my two cents worth to add to the thread.

Ned

[Chairmanofthebored]

what about NEST?
They are for the most, fine companies to work for but the money is only part of the issue. The lack of Flight & Duty reg's to prevent abuse of pilots is far more problematic. Who cares if you earn $100K a year, if you have to work practically every day. Talk with any experienced NZ pilot overseas and they are all hesitant to return to a system that gives them no time off and drives them into fatigue levels that are deadly. I know an ex-CP of a major NZ EMS operator who could not get a schedule introduced to their operation to minimise fatigue due two reasons: MONEY for additional pilots and CAA blocking the changes apparently for fear of pilot abuse.??? what part of being on duty for 48hr straight is not ABUSE? This level of duty time is driving pilots to burn out and it can only be a matter of time before there is an incident or accident blamed to fatigue. Perhaps then the media will drive the change that individuals in NZ cannot seem to instigate. What is driving it? GREED. The lust for money for the individuals running the whole shonky EMS SAR system in the country. Its amazing to us over here to see the saturation of machinery dedicated to a tiny country without that much demand. take a look at the work per month of the AHRT machine - Waiheke Is. return or 'cancelled enroute'. ZZzzzzz
look at the turnover of pilots in the 'top' jobs of NZ and the number that are over here and in PNG and Canada. Ask why? according to the rest of the world NZ is the best place to live and work. Why wouldn't you take a job in your own glorious country and sacrifice 20% of your salary for the lifestyle?
I think the NZ system needs the heavy help of something like the AFAP to enforce reasonable duty times and wages, which will force consolidation of resources in the country.

[EBCAU]

You are correct that there are too many helicopters for too little work in NZ. That equals stiff competition and too little money for most in the industry.
Duty, or 'on call" times, are generally high. If you divide the time you are at the employers call by the final remuneration it is pathetic in many cases. But there is always someone waiting to fill your seat so the cycle goes on.
Decreasing the amount of allowable duty time, and therefore the requirement for more pilots, probably would make it even harder to make a living there. The limited revenue returns, already being fought over by too many operators, would have to be shared amongst more pilots so the pay would probably decrease further.

I don't see an answer myself, other than pilots refusing to take low paying jobs, but that is never going to happen. I could be classed as one of them by some standards.

I left an overseas position to try to live in NZ. The pay cut was more than 20%, and it took twice as long to earn it. Sure, the life style was better than before, but you realize that as a pilot you are sliding back in terms of living standards unless you have another income. That left going overseas again with a better appreciation of why we have to do it.

At its worst the NZ situation even affects overseas operations. So many good NZ pilots are working overseas, for what is better money for them, that this can undermine conditions for those from other nations where better conditions are expected.

Sorry I cant give any solutions. I think we, as pilots, are as much part of the problem as the operators that are there. :ugh:

[HeliDriverNZ]

Just going back to what Ned was saying about young pilots expecting a job when they get their licence I couldn't agree more.
The company that I work for is currently looking for a new pilot for the summer and there dont seem to be any that are willing to work on the ground as a loader they expect to jump straight into a machine they seem to think that if they dont get go in the first month that it's not worth it and dont stick it out.
I personally think that it comes back to the fact that student loan's made it far too easy for people to clock up huge amount's of money without them appreciating how hard people have had to work in the past to save the money for their licence's
anyone's thoughts on this would be interesting.

[canterbury crusader]

Couldnt agree more helidrivernz

From what I have seen you can expect between 10 - 30% of those that get a CPL to continue in the industry and get a flying job (30% from my course). If you want evidence of this have a look at the CAA (nz) or CASA (aus) websites and search for how many CPLs there are and then find out how many class 1 medicals.

It is by no means uncommon for newbys to loader drive for up to and over 5 years for McDonalds wages (if your lucky) and bugger all flying.

If that sounds too hard or too long there is a solution, be in the right place at the right time, easy as pie.

Offering to work for nothing may seem like a good idea but it is the reason this thread exists. "But only till I have enough hours to get a good job" you say, and then wonder why it pays so little and they end up giving it to a guy willing to do it for nothing.

We are the only ones who can increase our wages by banding together and refusing to work for less. Yeah Right

well ive gone on long enough

[TukTuk BoomBoom]

Ned

I know youre a great photographer and youve certainly seen alot of operators around the world but i can tell you that working for some of those companies on your list and going flying to do publicity shots for them are very different experiences.
Unfortunately theres a few nz companies exploiting young pilots and you really need to ask guys that have worked there before you recommend operators.
There are very few i would work for.

The thing i tell everyone is to get a working holiday visa in canada once you get a few hours (you have to be under 30yr old). Its a much better industry with real pay rates and everybody i knew had a comfortable standard of living.

[Ned-Air2Air]

Tuk Tuk - Wasnt trying to say they are the best to work for, although re reading it I should have worded it different. I meant to say that these are operators with more than one helo in their fleet therefore they would be a better option in being able to pay larger salaries. I may only be a photgrapher but sometimes that enables me to get a bit closer look into some companies than others, but not always. If I was a commercial pilot there is probably only about four on that list that I would apply to, all I was trying to do was give someone a list of some operators where they could start.

With regards to Canada I would have to agree and would also throw in Alaska as well. In fact I was out at Ardmore today and the guy who was flying HIE, the AS350 painted up in Auckland Helicopters colours has buggered off to Alaska for three months, the AS350 being left at Heliflight while he is away.

Anyway just my two cents worth.

Ned

[BigMike]

From EBCAU, "At its worst the NZ situation even affects overseas operations. So many good NZ pilots are working overseas, for what is better money for them, that this can undermine conditions for those from other nations where better conditions are expected."

This is very true. A word of warning to guys heading overseas, and those who over state there experience. You will over stay your welcome very fast if you work for less.
Ask around and find out the average pay rate for that country, the type of work you will be doing, and your experience, and go from there.

Undercutting other pilots will lead you to gainning a reputation you really do not want.

[Te_Kahu]

Ned, that was a good clarification to make. I had certainly read your post from the perspective that you were seeking comment and feedback more than endorsement of the companies that you had listed.

I think a point that might be important to make to those from other parts of the globe, including our close neighbours on the big island to the West, is from whence the helo industry in NZ grew (there are parallels to this country's EMS sector and I will deal with that next).

From the days of the late, great Bill Reid, the NZ helo industry grew on the back of primary production. That was predominantly ag work ie spraying, fertiliser, fencing and firelighting (for clearing scrub off big blocks) Companies sprung up in the sixties and thrived in the seventies - Wisharts, James Aviation, Marine Helicopers, Wanganui Aero Work.

I remember WaW coming to an A&P (Agricultural & Pastoral show)in Taumarunui (heartland Central North Island) in the late 70s/early 80s with an Hiller 12E, H269, H36 & B206 - That was a big turn out for a little town.

From 60s through into the 80's there were utility companies which had a core business of Ag Work with some other things on the side. Helicopters NZ used to a great deal more Ag work than it has done in recent years. It diversified and survived.

A lot of those pilots were farmers or sons of farmers - there are too many to name. Much of the helicopter industry was an extension, albeit a very cool one in a young lads eyes, of their rural upbringing. These were can do pragmatic poeple. To my mind that is the genesis of what people in other parts of the world, who have come into the sector through other vectors, consider NZs cavalier approach to helicopter flying. In retrospect there is probably some merit to those views. However, it was also a bit of a metaphor for a young nations can do, fix it with No 8 wire, attitude.

Then came the deer recovery phase which saw the best and the worst of helicopter aviation the world has ever seen packed into a few short years. eg H369s needing 50 hour checks almost every weekend. Wild times, lucrative times also deadly times.

Again it was a heady time based on primary production. NZ has always been good at that. Lots of meat & wool producing sheep to the acre. (As opposed to outback Oz where they have lots of acres to the sheep & at the comparative time the UK where 30 sheep which attracted so much in the way of subsidies created a profitable farm) In terms of deer, for a while we made a fortune out of an introduced pest.

The only unions and awards in that sector were in the freezing works that processed the meat.

The EMS sector in NZ has really had a similar upbringing. Firstly it grew out of Ag/utility machines being used when required to do rescue work. Often a case of drop the spray gear and scream off to meet an ambulance somewhere. They were all services that were add-ons to Commercial operations. Peter Button, Capital Helicopters, Wellington, Dennis Hartley, Heliwing, East Cape, Bill Black, et el.

The forerunner to Auckland Rescue Helicopter Trust had been around for a while, at least in the summer, growing out of the Surf LIfesaving scene on Aucklands treacherous West Coast beaches. That started in 1970 using a Hiller and a static line to pull people out of the surf.

As other services started to grow a little more sophisticated, the odd dedicated rescue helicopter started to appear.

By the late 80s and 90s when some community funding started to appear, mainly in the form of the Lotteries Commission, trusts started to appear. The Lotteries Grants Board - General Committee would not fund commercial operations, only community organisations. Then money from non-casino gaming machines (pokies or one-armed bandits) started to pour out into the community.

At the same time the fundraising arms of these organisations got more organised and sophisticated. More trusts and services appeared around the country.

Now, I think the key point that is being missed by our Australian counterparts in particular, is that while all of thise was going on there was no over-arching Government poilcy and no dedicated funding. There was and still is precious little Government funding.

There are no contracts for service for the provision of SAR/EMS/HEMS in New Zealand like there are in the UK, or various states in Australia. We have community funded organisations that get some funding from the Government.

Yes there are contracts with ACC (Accident Compensation Corporation) for accident recovery work. But that is on a fee for service basis and covers less than half the total cost of the job. The rest has to be raised form coorporate sponsors and fundraising form the public.

Yes there are contracts with various regional health boards for inter-hospital transfer work. Again what is paid does not cover the full cost of the flight.

These together, and with a little bit of Police paid for SAR work, add up to between just 25-25% of the total cost of these operations.

There is certainly no Government funding for standing or operational costs.

The public of the communities where these services operate from are the major stakeholders of those services. Do we have too many? I believe the answer is yes!
Have some made it into a business and not a community based rescue service? Again I believe the answer is yes. But there was nothing stopping them from doing this.

There was an attempt to remedy that a year or two ago with an ACC sponsorsored project called the National Air Ambulance Strategy (NAAS) That was appalling handled by ACC and reprehensibly hijacked and eventually deep-sixed via an emotive media campaign which was largely befert of facts. This campaign was orchestrated by some operators on the basis of little more than their naked self insterest.

My goodness I have rambled. To sum up then! We have had a helo sector and then a rescue helo sector which was grown from a can do kiwi attitude. It has been left to grown on its own with no over-arching national framework or policy. It is proving to be incredibly difficult to now reign in and bring some sensibleness to it. The horse has bolted if like.

This probably needs more editing and refining, but I have spent far too long on it and I too have to bolt. So I will throw it out there for comment.

TK

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

TK,
Bit much of the waipiro spill on the keyboard cuz? "Bill Reid" ???? don't you mean his old man John?
"Ko te waipiro, pera i te ahi, he pai hai pononga engari kaua hai rangatira."
:D

[Te_Kahu]

Giovanni

I think it was the amount of wine spilt down my throat that was the problem.

I suspect there was a direct and active correllation between the quantum of wine consumed and the verbiage splayed across the page (not to mention the number of typos)

Mea Culpa, I did mean John Reid. :uhoh:

I shall crawl back under my rock.

TK

[seizedwing]

THL pilot hover-taxies away from the pads I hear, looks like the boys are taking the advice in this forum and moving on instead of moaning.
The ultimate irony for the men at the top is surely that all the money they are now spending year in year out on new ratings and training of new pilots, they could simply be paying to the experienced pilots they already have (or had!!!). Instead they end up with a half dozen low hour pilots working their way through to a better job.
you can spend that money on keeping people or training new people, its probably gonna cost you about the same in the long run and the longer they stay the better surely???? I might be wrong, I probably am because I've not got a couple of million in the bank have I.