Just taking my hat off to all pilots

[vendetta]

Hi all,

first off, sorry if there are any mistakes in my ramblings, but I'm not a native English speaker. I discovered this forum a couple of months ago, because back then I was hugely afraid of flying and I thought that seeing some pilots talking about their "normal daily routine", aside from gathering technical information, would help me to overcome my fears a little.

It might sound corny, but I always feel relieved and thankful when the plane is back on the ground safely and during my numerous flights I was often thinking "those guys in the cockpit are really doing an amazing job, bringing the plane back to the ground safely, ensuring a safe flight, knowing how to handle this huge bird" etc. Probably because my safety and my life is depending on you while being up there, you know? Also because I really appreciate and admire the hard job that you are doing. And, despite my fears, I even want to obtain a pilote licence myself one day, because I find flying so fascinating. Scary and fascinating at the same time.

So basically, the main intention of this thread is just to say THANK YOU! and respect and compliments to all of you pilots (hence the subject), as I never get the chance to tell anyone of you personally (because most of the time you are still in the cockpit while I as a passenger have already left the plane).

I have also read alot about the Ryanair issues and their not-so-nice work conditions in this forum and it seriously makes me feel bad whenever I fly with them, but unfortunately they are the only ones who fly out from Kerry (Ireland) straight to Germany :( , otherwise I would not support them (but then again, that would be bad for the pilots working for Ryanair, wouldn't it, because if thousands of people would think the same, Ryanair makes less profit, thus cutting corners on salary?) Ah well, I wish I could help in some way. I just hope that the work conditions will improve for you guys, you truly deserve it!!!

But, I also have some questions. My fears result from a x-wind-landing experience about 1 year ago. It felt like we were approaching way too fast and then the plane landed on one wheel only, and that felt really bad. For you pilots, a cross-wind-landing might be nothing special, haha, but as a passenger with no knowledge it felt so horrible and I wasn't the only one in the plane who thought that something was terribly wrong and that we wouldn't make it out alive. Well, what did I know. I have learned that this is the best and safest way to land when there are strong cross-winds, so that issue is not a problem anymore. But there are still thoughts spinning in my head whenever I enter a plane, like, what if the aircraft hasn't been checked well enough before taking off, what if there is something wrong with the bord computer, what if the pilot is tired and exhausted and unconcentrated, what if the airline management has decided to cut corners on safety to make more profit, what if this, what if that? Are you pilots never afraid of flying?

I was also wondering if it's allowed to go have a peek in the cockpit these days? Many people say it's not since 9 / 11, so I didn't ever bother to ask during my last flights, but who knows? Like I said, flying is fascinating and I think it's also comforting to watch the pilots doing their job in an experienced and calm way. So before I finally dare to ask on my next flight, haha, perhaps you can answer that question already? Or is it different with each airline?

Sorry for the long text and thanks to all of you again for doing such a great job. :)

[bfisk]

Great post! Not a (hired) pilot yet myself, but working on it. I defenitely see a lot of your fears as understandable; they are perfectly normal.

Even though the media often displays the darker corners of the business, rest assured that safety still is paramount. You mention a lot of cases that might occur; and these are reasons why thousands of flights worldwide are cancelled every day. "If ever in doubt, there's no doubt", meaning, if there's any question as to wheter the flight can be conducted safely, it will not be flown.

Rigourous maintenance programs are established, to ensure both inspections and preventive maintenance to be conducted in a proper fashion. "For every hour that a plane is in flight, maintenance crews spend roughly three-and-a-half hours working to maintain it" (boeing.com quote). Now, ask yourself how much work, in man-hours, needs to be accomplished every year on your car to keep it safe. For comparison, I have translated from a well-known airline web site, regarding a popular jet:
Once every 24 hours a "Daily check" is performed. It takes about 6 mechanic hours.
After each landing a "Pre-flight"-control is performed. This control is conducted by the captain away from the base, and by a mechanic at the home base.
Once a week a "Weekly check" is performed, and it requires about 12 mechanic hours.
About once every 7 weeks, – or within 600 hours in service – an "A-check" is performed. It requires about 250 mechanic hours.
Each 19 mothns – or within 6400 hours in service – a "C-check" is performed. It requires about 5.000 mechanic hours and grounds the airplane for about 8 days.
Each sixth year, a "D-check" is performed. The airplane is grounded for about 35 days, because this check requires 30.000 mechanic hours.Does this mean that the aircraft is in "perfect" shape every time? Just like a car, nothing is ever perfect. But aircraft have definite rules and lists about what minimum conditions must be met to allow ample safety margins. While damage to seat upholstry, for instance, would not be reason to ground a flight, a malfunction in the interior emergency lights, would.

You have probably read it, but it's worth reempasizing: a key word in modern airliners is redundancy. So a computer fails - well, it's a good thing we have several of them on board, then! Allthough a bit more serious; same thing with the engines - if an engine fails, the airplane will still be able to fly. It would not be advisable to continue to the destination, as the margin of safety is reduced, but making a circuit to come back for a one-engine landing is perfectly safe, and is even being trained for on a regular basis in highly realistic simulators. Moreover there's several electrical generators and hydraulic systems; all of them able to control the airplane by them selves. So if one

Last, but not least, is the inheret human fear of falling. It is perfectly natural, maybe even healthy. Humans are used to being on the ground, and we know that stuff falls down on other stuff. However, airplanes have the inherent characteristic of flying; they will not simply fall out of the sky, unless you actively try really really hard.

Summa summarum; safety standards allow an extremely big margin of safety. Although every effort is made to prevents equipment malfunctions, nothing is fail safe. However, in the unlikely event that something fails, the airplane is not yet in a critical state. The margin of safety is reduced, and a precautionary landing is made, so that the flight can be terminated safely. This is often errouneusly referred to as "dramatic emergency landings" by media. Yes it is a big deal, no, no one is going to get hurt.


Happy landings and good luck with your pilot liscence. After getting used to being away from the ground, you will understand why the birds sing :-)

[Strepsils]

vendetta - Next time you're flying ask the cabin crew if you could visit the flight deck once you're on stand. Provided they've got a bit of time, the crew are in a good mood and there's no training going on, most Captains will quite happily let you pop your head round the door for a quick chat.

[CP32]

Vendetta, Bfisk covered the maintenance questions superbly. I have been flying for about 30 years and my safety is paramount. If I'm safe then everyone else on my 747 is too. I have a super family that I am almost quite fond of from time to time who I will return to after each trip. Commercial pilots are not selected nor respected for their "bravery"...
CP32

[SXB]

Bfisk
That's an excellent post, many thanks, I didn't know the level of maintenance that was involved in keeping modern jet airliners in the air, very informative. I'd be pleased to be one of your passengers when you're hired, which I hope is not too long in future. Best of luck.

[vendetta]

bfisk, thank you for your great posting! That really helped alot, and yes, I had already heard of "redundancy" before ;) but I didn't know how much work and how many hours are really invested into safety (only knew about the A-checks, D-checks, outside checks etc), so that was really a great thing to learn. Thanks and all the best to you for your career!

strepsils, thanks for that advice, I actually followed it and asked the cabin crew during my last flight, which was about a week ago. Unfortunately, the stewardess told me it's not allowed since 9/11 anymore and that the cockpit would be locked anyway, so there was no way in for me. :( Aaaah well, next time maybe!

CP32, I'm not sure how to take your posting, particularly the last sentence. Maybe it's because I'm not a native speaker, but I didn't mention nor wanted it to sound like pilots are selected or respected for "bravery" - whatever you mean by that? Not sure what your point was... ? Just wanted to say a simple thanks, but the funny thing is, I said thanks to the pilot on my last flight and he replied "No problem" in a weird voice, so I guess he was like "huh? whatever" haha...well like I said, just wanted to say thanks and respect.

[Bus429]

Good one bfisk; I was going to make the point that - despite my pilot baiting in the past (all good-natured and will return) - safety is a team effort. Safety is managed-it doesn't just happen- between pilots, maintainers, cabin attendants and their respective support departments. :D

[lemmiwink]

Liebe/r Vendetta

Pilots are not selected for their bravery: means that the very nice compliments you've been paing the pilot fraternity are very well received.

To work as a pilot an individual ideally has to be well balanced. So when you are being gently put on the ground after a long flight you haven't arrived safely because the pilots took risks or were "brave" (tapfer) to get you there. It was professionalism, hard work (although it doesn't look that way) and very thorough and harsh training over a long period of time.

So, once in a while appreciation from pax, other crew or dare I say it management, is very refreshing and welcome.

It is a great shame, that the pilot's status has been eroded so much in the last 10 years, it sucks actually.

Because we want to fly to Paris for 40 Euro my pension is disappearing, I haven't had a pay rise since 9/11, I could go on, but I won't.

So, Vendetta, enjoy the flights, enjoy your PPL course, and don't give up asking if you can visit the flight deck: ON THE GROUND AFTER Everybody has disembarked, just try.

all the best
lemmiwink

[fearfullflyer]

I really appreciate your replies aswell. As someone who has flown for many years with a knot in my stomach it should give me something to think about on my next flight (in 2 weeks time -SAA CDG - JHB).
To you guys in the sharp end thanks for everything (esp in these troubled times) and keep up the good work!

[gorgeous spotter]

Liebe/r Vendetta

Pilots are not selected for their bravery: means that the very nice compliments you've been paing the pilot fraternity are very well received.

To work as a pilot an individual ideally has to be well balanced. So when you are being gently put on the ground after a long flight you haven't arrived safely because the pilots took risks or were "brave" (tapfer) to get you there. It was professionalism, hard work (although it doesn't look that way) and very thorough and harsh training over a long period of time.

So, once in a while appreciation from pax, other crew or dare I say it management, is very refreshing and welcome.

It is a great shame, that the pilot's status has been eroded so much in the last 10 years, it sucks actually.

Because we want to fly to Paris for 40 Euro my pension is disappearing, I haven't had a pay rise since 9/11, I could go on, but I won't.

So, Vendetta, enjoy the flights, enjoy your PPL course, and don't give up asking if you can visit the flight deck: ON THE GROUND AFTER Everybody has disembarked, just try.

all the best
lemmiwink

Lemmiwink, On my last flight in June from MAN to MALAGA as soon as the plane had landed and the seatbelt signs were still on, once the plane had stopped the Captain opened the cockpit door , obviously glad of some fresh air. I suppose if I had been a little braver then (being in Club?) I might have asked the purser if I could have a little snoop, then again theres always the fear that you are going to get swatted away like an annoying fly; I suppose the guys/girls do need a bit of peace, but hey, they've only had each other for company for the last few hours or so, so maybe not? I was leaning over in my seat to get a complete nosy parker view of the flight deck anyway. Anyhow, like Vendetta I'm not the best of flyers. On take off at MAN even in a newish A320 I could feel the roar of the engines and I was a tad afraid!! sorry!!, even when the plane was banking right in the air I was like "whassit doing??", total nerdy idiot I know; but its an interest thing, like if we get so scared at take off and landing with the roar of the engines and the landing gears coming down and the sheer speed etc its obviously all in days work to them. They are so brave, and in charge of multi-million pound aircraft and hundreds of lives, that is god like status really; brilliant. I salute them!! Isn't about time they got praised a bit more for the job that they do:) ; everyone likes to feel good!!:D

[Chesty Morgan]

Gorgeous, are you married?;):}

[gorgeous spotter]

Gorgeous, are you married?;):}

I am Chesty Morgan, but I have developed total interest in all things to do with aviation, so I may drive you mad with my little threads from time to time..........hope you don't mind!! ;) :p

Love

Gorgeous x.

[Tyre kicker]

They are so brave, and in charge of multi-million pound aircraft and hundreds of lives, that is god like status really; brilliant. I salute them!!

ffs.:=
As if some heads ain't big enough.....:}
love and kisses TK

[gorgeous spotter]

ffs.:=
As if some heads ain't big enough.....:}
love and kisses TK

....for getting me on the ground safely after each flight I'll say anything!!;)

Love and kisses to you too Tyre kicker:p :}

Gorgeous

[SXB]

It is a great shame, that the pilot's status has been eroded so much in the last 10 years, it sucks actually.

I'm not sure that's so, certainly not with us guys who fly all the time in anycase. I do fly a lot and I would place the pilots who fly me in the same professional group as my doctor, this being the highest group, people I trust to take care of not only me but my kids as well. Nowadays professional responsibility is often measured in a dollar value alone, someone commanding an aircraft may have a $50 million responsibilty, couple that with a 150 lives and that's a big responsibility.

We all get screwed by upper management, this is a fact of life which is, unfortunately, too common nowadays. It's also a mystery how some of these idiots rise to such positions.

As always, Gorgeous puts it into words better than anyone else:)

[gorgeous spotter]

Aww, thanks SXB!!:)

[Wedge]

It's a terrible shame that you can't visit the Flight Deck en route any longer.

I consider myself very lucky at having been allowed to jumpseat several times pre 9/11, sometimes there for the whole flight including takeoff and landing. I doubt we'll ever see that again, especially given the recent security scares.

Sad. :(

[raviolis]

Once every 24 hours a "Daily check" is performed. It takes about 6 mechanic hours.
After each landing a "Pre-flight"-control is performed. This control is conducted by the captain away from the base, and by a mechanic at the home base.
Once a week a "Weekly check" is performed, and it requires about 12 mechanic hours.
About once every 7 weeks, – or within 600 hours in service – an "A-check" is performed. It requires about 250 mechanic hours.
Each 19 mothns – or within 6400 hours in service – a "C-check" is performed. It requires about 5.000 mechanic hours and grounds the airplane for about 8 days.
Each sixth year, a "D-check" is performed. The airplane is grounded for about 35 days, because this check requires 30.000 mechanic hours.

I read with interest. Out of curiosity :
does all of the above happen also with low cost operators with heavy scheduling and quick turnarounds ? Most of these aircraft fly non stop from 7 am to 10 pm, with 25 minutes turnarounds or a bit more for crew changes.

Most of those operators subcontract their maintenance to engineering companies that sometimes have as little as 2 mechanics on duty with 4 or more aircraft to look after.
So, how do they manage to squeeze in 6 mechanic hours a day ?

regards

[gorgeous spotter]

I read with interest. Out of curiosity :
does all of the above happen also with low cost operators with heavy scheduling and quick turnarounds ? Most of these aircraft fly non stop from 7 am to 10 pm, with 25 minutes turnarounds or a bit more for crew changes.

Most of those operators subcontract their maintenance to engineering companies that sometimes have as little as 2 mechanics on duty with 4 or more aircraft to look after.
So, how do they manage to squeeze in 6 mechanic hours a day ?

regards

Now you've got me worried.:\

[Chesty Morgan]

The daily check is done by the night shift, usually, after the last flight of the day.

A walkaround only takes five minutes and is easily done within a twenty minute turn around.

Heavy maintenance is done on time. All airlines will have an excess number of aircraft solely to enable them to be rotated through the hangar without impacting the flying schedule.

Hope that is of some use:ok:

[CVTDog]

I wish they would sell the "jump seat" for a flight - 9/11 has scuppered that I suppose - but I would loveto have a good look at the deck in action.

My son (who was 11 at the time 7 years ago) was lucky enough to have 20 mins (up to the seatbelt sign when they got really busy) in a A320 thanks to the genourosity of a great Captain and FO.

If we could pass all the screening and security - why not????

[Biggles' Apprentice]

Just a little point...whilst the deck visit is possible when on the stand at the END of the flight, asking for a quick peek and so on in flight whether you're in Club, Business, Upper, First, Steerage, Cattle or whatever will enevitably result in refusal and perhaps suspicion, so please don't put yourself or us in that position, although I totally understand that this situation is an example of the crazy few ballsing it up for the genuinely interested and I totally sympathise.

It makes you feel a heel to say no, but equally "in this time of heightened security" (copyright Tony B-Liar) you have to understand that asking the question puts us lot in a difficult andf annoying position.