Navigator seeks career advice!

[India Delta Sierra]

With 2 years to go to my 38/16 I'm starting to look at the possibility of getting my licences. I have numerous hours FJ sandbagging (bzzt I know) and an elapsed PPL with 200 hrs achieved over 10 years ago.

I've been looking into the possibilities and see the following as possible options:
1. Bite the bullet and cough up about £60k to get a frozen ATPL through an established flying school (Oxford Aviation?) - expensive but good contacts
2. Complete ATPL exams through distance learning then do a modular course, saving time and money (Does PPL have to be current to start exams?)
3. Go to US/Aus and get licence before returning to UK and get JAA licence - cheaper but no contacts in UK when job seeking.

Are there any ex-navs now flying for the airlines or any other people in the 'know' who could pass on their past experiences and/or advice on the best way forward. Also, how easy will it be to get a foot in the airlines door at ~39 with virtually no hours. Do any airline acknowledge the aviation experience gained as a back seater?

I'd appreciate any serious advice (McDonalds aside) given my background.

[camlobe]

Don't know if this will be seen as help but, here goes.

You need to get yourself known. It won't work if you don't have a current licence. With regard to your lapsed PPL, as it has been over 10 years, I believe you will need to do the whole PPL again. With your flying 'familarity', you should be able to do this easily in the minimum 45 hours. It will still cost cicra £5,000+.

JAA approved schools in the USA are your quickest and cheapest way to regain your PPL. If you can afford the time, try and re-attain your PPL before leaving the RAF. Many of these schools realistically suggest one month. With your experience, you should be able to persuade the school to complete it in much quicker timescale. You won't have difficulty with the ground exams. Once you've got your PPL, blag as many trips as possible in anything and everything, and that includes sims. In an ideal world, get a posting to somewhere with turbine twins or multi's and fly these as much as possible. You can count your hours, especially if you also get the ratings i.e. night, multi, IMC/IR. Get QFI's to sign your log book as often as possible. They are Instructors even from the CAA point of view as well as the potential employer. Remember, this is worthless if you don't already have your PPL as a minimum. Book everything you do but don't lie (Parker hours etc). It will come to haunt you down the road. Try and record also your multi-crew co-operation training/MCC etc. It is relevant. Seat drills and the pool probably arn't.

At the (same) USA based JAA school, get your CPL/Multi/IR. Oxford are good, but will cost much more and take longer. And remember, time is serious money. Oxford is OK but only if you are part-sponsored really, and there isn't much chance of that. Which ever way you go, you will start to gain more contacts on the way. Most, but I believe not all, commercial training requires the candidate to be a PPL holder. The Military Aviation scene is small. The 'big civvy world' is also a small place. The word gets around pretty quickly, and that doesn't include pprune.

Believe me, without CPL/Multi/IR as a minimum, you won't even get a foot holding the bottom of the ladder, let alone one on the rung. There are an awful lot of kids with ATP/frozen ATPL's out there at the front of the queue with good hours, cheap to hire and easy to mold into the company frame of mind.

If you can commit yourself to the above suggestion, you MIGHT make it and, seriously, good luck to you. If you think it is too much to contemplate, consider another direction.

Sorry to go on and I hope this doesn't sound negitive, and the very best of British to you.

camlobe

[India Delta Sierra]

Camlobe
Thanks for the advice. The reason I was contemplating an 'approved' school in the UK was for the contacts that you mention are so important. If I accept their costs, do you know if any of the airlines are likely to take on the 'old' giffer with military background and life experiences rather than the young pups.

I've heard that several navs have been taken on over the years but don't know any personally. Also, no chance of multi time in current location - do manage to get front seat sims but only for fun and never logged.

[BEagle]

camlobe, your information is way, way out of date!

IDS, to renew your PPL, all you need to do is:

1. NO EXAMS!
2. Get a JAA Class 2 medical. Eventually you will need a Class 1 for the CPL though.
3. Fly whatever refresher flying training your instructors think you need - there is NO specific hours requirement.
4. Take the PPL Skill Test with an Examiner; this will include a few oral questions.
5. Send your old PPL and all the paperwork plus cheque off to the CAA.

You can do all of this at a RAFFCA flying club for a fraction of the cost of going to the USA.

You may then enrol on a Modular CPL course.

However, the quickest way to a fATPL would be to invest in an Integrated course at somewhere with a good reputation, such as Oxford, Cabair or Jerez. Some airlines have indeed been known to have a good look at the qualities of course students and have recruited pilots still under training! Not something likely to happen to students in some anonymous school overseas - and to get a start in the airlines needs contacts at your stage in life.

Airlines are expanding - and almost 50% of the kids with fATPLs paid for by themselves who have never passed any aptitude or officer selection type test are considered by airlinr recruiters tobe virtually unemployable. They are simply not the sort of people airlines want in their cockpits.

Navs have left at 38/16 and made it to the airlines, so you won't be the first!

[BigGrecian]

However, the quickest way to a fATPL would be to invest in an Integrated course

Agreed Intergrated courses provide the all important contacts, but quickest? Out of my collgues who have since left the RAF and gone on to complete their civvy licences, integrated was never the fastest. I would say for an unexperienced civilian chap starting afresh this may be true, but with a military flying background the time difference is negligible. At least modular would be based on an individual plan - which may be of benefit - as though integrated is more structured by the course - which of course you'll be used to.

Just my 2 pence worth.

[gijoe]

Don't forget your Enhanced Learning Credits.

As of Apr 08 £2000.00 worth for your length of service.

G

[India Delta Sierra]

Thanks for the various advice. Looks like contacts is the name of the game = UK training.

Does anyone know if any of the 'bigger' airlines are likely to recruit a 39 year old without significant hours or would it be a case of accept anything for a few years and progress once hours have been built?

IDS

[psy clops]

IDS wrote...do manage to get front seat sims but only for fun
I still have sweats about that last landing of yours...:eek:

[airborne_artist]

IDS

Ask/PM Scroggs - ex-RAF and now Virgin. Also PM Wow400 - ex-Nav now RHS with an LH operator.

[BEagle]

"....or would it be a case of accept anything for a few years...."

Not the wisest way of putting things. You won't have a vast amount of pilot experience when you finish your course, but oodles of airmanship etc; hence it is unlikely that you'll be able to step straight in to an A330! You should look for a job which will give you experience on modern high performance turboprops, in my view. This will allow you to gain experience in airline operations and give you a reasonable amount of hand-on-pole time, whilst still building 'glass cockpit' experience without the risk of getting behind the ac and ATC.

I would recommend trying for an operator such as flybe which is expanding significantly and is acquiring the latest Q400 in large numbers. They are more interested in people with a passion for flying than those with all the ticks but an "It's only a job" attitude...

[India Delta Sierra]

Psy Clops

Thanks for your input.

Surprised you've got the time to comment between flying rubber dogs*?! out of HK!

:)

[psy clops]

flying rubber dogs*?! out of HK!
Better than navigating sand out of the pit...

[threepointonefour]

Have a look at the new ICAO MPL - Multi Crew License.

It seems to be ideal for someone with a bunch of aviation experience. You get 240hrs training but they cut out most of the single engine hours building (enduring over a small lake in Florida). You still get around 70 hrs flying but the remaining time is in either the A320 or 737 simulator. You finish the course with much valued experience on a useful platform.

There's a fair amount of scepticism about a course with so few actual flying hrs, but as a Nav with bags of airmanship and multicrew experience you're already way ahead of the less experienced competition. It also won't allow you to fly commercially as a single pilot, you'll be stuck, initially, to a multi crew cockpit.

The MPL is, I think, only going to be offered as an 'integrated' course and won't actually be too much cheaper than the SOP £50-60k for a standard Integrated ATPL. One company, whose name I forget (but are an alliance of Astraeus and Bond Aviation), will be offering MPL training in the UK, India and the Phillipines, with the latter 2 options being much cheaper.

It may not be for you, but it's a course focussed on getting you into the rhs of a small airliner and therefore should be considered.

[SkidMX]

Plenty of us out here in the airlines with dark secrets from our past!
Already some good tips on the thread, but here's my 5p worth.
Have large cheque book to fund which ever route to ATPL.
The 1st pilot job will be the hardest to get -keep aiming some high shots, but take anything to get some hours in.
As BEagle says modern turbos are what you probably need to help you towards a jet cockpit.
That said other nav mates have been taken straight onto A320s in the last year with only approved course hours...but only after 12 months of rejection letters & working in an insurance office to pay bills!
Be prepared for plenty of Nos, No ways, & No replies - you only need 1 Yes.
Network relentlessly, mainstream jobs will always come through a formal process, but airtaxi, corporate work is more likely to be found by word of mouth or literally going & knocking on the door.
Drop me an e if you want any more.
Make your own good luck.
Skid

[BEagle]

If you obtain a 'MPL', in JAA-land it will only entitle you to operate as a co-pilot on one specific type/airline. The only airline with any real interest in the MPL is Lufthansa; hardly surprising really as it will allow them to retire their Cheyennes and to offer training to others at their existing simulator facilities in Bremen....

Several recent accidents have indicated that weak core flying skills may have been partly to blame. Reducing the 'real' flying even further is a risky step to take unless the particular MPL applicant has been independently aptitude tested - and MUST include at least the 6 hours of multi-engine basic flying training required for a MEP Class Rating! Fair enough to do all the IF stuff in clever advnced simulators, but there should be a line drawn somewhere!

[deltahotel]

IPS. SkidMX has it pretty much right. you need a licence, a medical, a pulse and a chunk of luck to get the first job (always the hardest to get). Send CV to any company you think you'd like to work for, only send CVs to companies you are prepared to work for. Don't be intimidated by modern jets - in some ways easier to operate than turbos. Be shameless in contacting mates in airlines - the recruiting systems of all airlines have squillions of CVs and a mate can often get you an interview quicker. Airlines do value non pilot flying experience and the airmanship thet goes with it; at 39 you still have 20 odd years work ahead of you. Finally (health warning here) airline work has changed over the years; wherever you go (with a few exceptions) the work is getting harder - duty limits being used as targets and suchlike. Would i change what i do? not for a moment!! good luck DH