Want to fly for us? That's $33,150, please

[Sinik]

Article in today's Sydney Morning Herald - "standard practice now" according to increasing number of airlines!


http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2006/07/27/1153816321075.html

Can't be long now before they make you pay online subscription just to look at their entry requirements!!! Oops - hope I'm not putting ideas into their heads!

[Mercenary Pilot]

Sinik...This sort of thing has been going on here for a while, I think Ryanair's current fees are £50 to look at your CV, £250 for your interview/sim check and £20,000+ for your type rating, welcome to 21st century aviation :ok:

[Sinik]

Mercenary Pilot,

I don't doubt it - disappointing when an airline spokesman says it is "standard" though! You've got to have bottomless pockets or rich (willing to sponsor) parents to get into this game, not to mention, hard work, determination and luck!

[Desert Budgie]

Ive been reading this debate since I joined pprune. The harsh reality is everyone has got to remember that paying for training is not just limited to pilots. Chances are that engineers, doctors, architects etc etc who have gone to at least reasonable colleges and universities have incurred debt similar to a pilot who has bought a type rating. Its common to hear of doctors owing well over 100000us after study. Even a good business degree from a university will cost you more than it does to fly.

I guess I have just come to terms with the fact that its not just aviation where wannabes get robbed. If you want something bad enough, you'll have to pay for it and employers seem to have no problem exploiting that.

The beef I have with it is that once you have paid your way through your training and your first rating, maybe flown a 737 for 2000 hours and then want a job flying a 320 for Jetstar they STILL charge you half a years salary (at least) for the rating. And then you move to the UK to fly for Ryanair or EasyJet and they CHARGE YOU AGAIN! Nowadays it seems unless you join a legacy carrier you are going to have to pay everytime you change jobs. So much for being hired just based on experience!

[mazzy1026]

Even a good business degree from a university will cost you more than it does to fly

Never! How can training to ATPL level cost more than a 3 or four year degree at £1000 per term? It would be good to know of another profession that actually costs you train...nurses, doctors, firefighters, all get paid to train.

Cheers,

Maz :ok:

[raviolis]

I think one thing is paying for training, another thing is paying for illusions.

A type rating is expensive stuff but at least it gives you something back, and you can use it for the rest of your career, not only with Ryanair. And the 737NG is a pretty popular machine these days.
I also believe that Ryanair give you a job on completion of the type rating, which is some sort of guarantee at least.

Paying for illusions, like the more and more frequent new fake-sponsorship schemes which charge money from the day of your selection tests, that's a bit unfair. Certainly if the FTO's didn't lobby with the airlines to secure places for their own cadets, the training market would be subject to competition and, possibly, it would drive the prices down, not up !

[Crowe]

Never! How can training to ATPL level cost more than a 3 or four year degree at £1000 per term? It would be good to know of another profession that actually costs you train...nurses, doctors, firefighters, all get paid to train.

Cheers,

Maz :ok:

Think he's talking about the US, where fees can be £20k pa easily. No doubt it'll be same here eventually...

[mazzy1026]

£20k for a degree in the US ? :uhoh:

[littco]

It would be good to know of another profession that actually costs you train


My girlfriend spent £30k studying to be a Lawyer, that included 3 years at University and 2 years at Law school.. 5 years and £6k a year is not that unreasonable!

Please don't feel that hard done by.... We are not the only ones out there spending a small fortune to get where we want to be!

[richarjm]

I have paid for a type rating. I didn't enjoy writing the cheque and I would have loved to find an airline willing to pay, but I didn't.
However, to compare my situation to a friend of mine;
I spent in the region of £80k all in over 20 months to be a 737 first officer. By 24 months after starting training my pay is equal to that of my friend.
He spent 5 years doing a masters in IT and now has a job with a well known firm in the city (London). He works Monday to Friday, doing similar lengths of days to me and has the same number of days annual leave. I work 5 on, 4 off most of the year.
His course cost £25,000 over 5 years, so I spent £55,000 more than him, but I started earning 3 years earliler. I will earn much more than £55,000 in that time. We are both equally happy as we are both in the careers we wanted. I also have a friend who has just qualified as a Lawyer and she also took 5 years to qualify with similar costs to my first friend.
I guess my point is that, while having to pay for a type course is a real shock and that I firmly believe trainining on a company's equipement should be at the company's cost, it is not a bad investment.

[Desert Budgie]

Overseas student fees. Its fair enough if you have eligability to study in your own country, or can do the course you want there. If your an Indian national for example wanting to study in the UK your looking at least 10000 sterling a year. Buddy of mine went to Penn State university in the US to do media. 20000 usd a year. It seems rediculous but thats the reality. And if you want to do medicine, even on resident fees, probably expect to incur a higher debt than a pilot.

Im not defending the airlines, Im a pilot, got big debt, wish it was like the old days when it came to the training. However here are the days of the LCCs and monster fuel prices. Our industry is not the only one getting shafted. By realising that I find it easier to come to terms with the cost of all the training.

My opinion

DB :ok:

[max autobrakes]

It might cost you similar money but the big difference is in Australia is the HECS. You don't actually pay anything back until your pay is above a certain threshold. All interest free to boot I'm led to believe.
A big difference to borrowing $100k+ at unsecured loan rates on the off chase of securing a job.
Once again the risk reward equation just dosn't quite add up in favour of an aviation career these days does it? :sad:

[Crowe]

£20k for a degree in the US ? :uhoh:

Yep. Per year. :eek:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=506710

[Lucifer]

Never! How can training to ATPL level cost more than a 3 or four year degree at £1000 per term? It would be good to know of another profession that actually costs you train...nurses, doctors, firefighters, all get paid to train.
A Harvard MBA is far more...

[Woof etc]

There is a difference between paying for your own basic training - similar to paying for your own degree, and paying for your type rating (equivalent company specific training, housemanship for doctors, etc.)

Before becoming a pilot I was an engineer. My company paid for my degree and I was expected to work back for them for an equivalent period of time. (bond) During the first 2 years I was an engineering trainee and spent most of the time on training courses at company expense. During this time I was paid a salary even though I added very little value to the company.

I can think of no other industry where you are expected to pay for your company training once you have qualified. First of all you can't choose what aircraft your company flies so you are obliged to do the type rating on the type that they operate. The airline should pay for this since it is in house training for their own specific operational requirements. If they bond you for this training - fair enough, although I cannot think offhand of any other industries that do this. Doctors dont pay for their postgraduate training. Nor do engineers, architects, lawyers, plumbers, builders etc. etc.

[richarjm]

As I said above I disagree with paying for company specific training, although I did give in and do it. Having done it though I don't regret it. For interest though my lawyer friend was paid peanuts for her first year and a half and was worked to the bone. That does sound comparable to a Low Co airline or three I could mention.

[chrisbl]

I can think of no other industry where you are expected to pay for your company training once you have qualified. Doctors dont pay for their postgraduate training. Nor do engineers, architects, lawyers, plumbers, builders etc. etc.

Wrong I am afraid. Doctors are paying all the time for keeping their skills and competencies upto date. They get tax relief on the training as it is a business expense.

The same is the case in many other professions. A Masters in Construction Management can set you back £11k for a part time degree. There are few construction companies paying that sort of money. The best they might do is pay the subscriptions to a professional body (about £200).

Of course when you are in self employment as many builders and plumbers are then there is only one person who can pay.

With so many pilots looking for jobs and effectively undercutting each other the employers have the whip hand.

The aviation labour market is just like any other market. If the pilots played hard to get then the employers would have to change their tune. But with big debts from the training, and being desperate to fly, the emplyers win.

There is a paradox there somewhere. How insane do you have to be to rack up so much debt when there is no guarantee of a job.

Outside aviation they would be regarded as a nutter and people would cross the street to avoid them.

In aviation we call them pilots and put 200 lives in there hands for long periods of time.

Wow!

[theschultx]

Your all mad...Why pay for a degree? In finland all higher eduction is FREE:ok:

[bafanguy]

In finland all higher eduction is FREE:ok:

What's your national income tax rate ?

[Desert Budgie]

There is a difference between paying for your own basic training - similar to paying for your own degree, and paying for your type rating (equivalent company specific training, housemanship for doctors, etc.)

Woof etc - When I am comparing training costs I am including a type rating along with the initial training. My training including a type was about 60k sterling, probably a bit less even but not including living expenses, etc. That is more than comparable to training costs for other proffessions. 20k US a year for a BSc in the States? 10k sterling (at least) for overseas student a year in the UK? And that doesnt include a masters! Slap on another 10k at least for that!

Theschultx - Even in the UK because of all the taxes paid by families over the years, a degree is offered at a pretty reasonable price. However, millions of other people around the world wanting a similar education do not have that luxury and have to fork out the full whack of overseas fees. And like a previous poster said, it wont be long until fees are hiked up to that of the US.

Back to the type ratings, it wouldn't be so bad if airlines offered you a job before you pay for the rating. I know this is not true with all airlines, I think Southwest will put you through your paces THEN tell you to get at least a 732 rating and they will put you in the pilot pool. The problem is the airlines who don't look at your CV until you have the type. A sort of 'Get a type and we'll talk' attitude. Thats where you take the biggest gamble. I have spoken to far too many people who have spent a couple of months and 20000 pounds on a type and are doing their IR renewal in a Seneca 1 year down the line. You may be a great pilot, but that type rating doesnt help if your rubbish in the interview! I was very careful, as I'm sure richarjm would tell you, before putting pen to paper on a cheque. And yes, when you do you think holy crap, but you do get the rewards back quickly, PROVIDING there is a job there at the end.

Put it this way, I have instructor mates building up hours and experiance that way. Don't get me wrong, if it weren't for the instructors none of us would be where we are today. They object to paying for a type, not because they cant afford it, but because they feel experience in the instructor field will prevail and that airline job will come. RESPECT! However its not what they want to do (they want to be in big shiny planes :O ) had a crap year up to this summer because of the weather and get paid piddles.
I on the other hand got the instructors rating then thought screw it. Really not what I wanted to be doing. Got a loan, built some twin time, bought a rating and now fly internationally @ FL250 doing 80Hrs turbine time a month and get paid more than twice what my mates are getting instructing. What would you rather be doing?

People will say that the pilots who keep paying for ratings are adding fuel to the fire and the more people that pay the more airlines will say pay for your training. But its the reality of today, just please make sure that if you do, its not in vain. BE CAREFUL!

DB :ok:

[AlternativeProcedure]

I spent in the region of £80k all in over 20 months to be a 737 first officer.Damn, what is this profession coming to??? 80K just to be a first officer on a 737. Even with the current state of things, there are still different options out there. I'm not saying yours was a wrong way of doing it, its just seems extremely steep. I cant even start to imagine the loan repayements on that bad boy.

I went off to Africa, persevered, put up with all the b/s and managed to get a turbine job. With time, your hours slowly build and so does your confidence and the reality that this is a job(for which we all have a passion 4) that should bring happiness and not extreme desperation in the early stages. There are many options out there guys, no matter how small the aircraft, no matter how remote and isolated the country, flying is flying. And the experience is what matters. I hardly have luck chasing me, I try my best to make it happen.

[2close]

Don't mean to hijack the thread or go off on a tangent but just to highlight UK training prices generally, the Health & Safety Diploma cost me just under £ 10,000, when you add in accommodation, transport and nosh and that was for a whacking great FIVE whole weeks of tuition.

I was recently looking for some advanced German language refresher tuition as I had the chance of a job out there and all of the UK companies were asking between £ 300 - 400 per DAY plus their accommodation charges if they came to me! For the six weeks I felt I would need for the job that would have cost me roughly £ 12,000 +. I looked up schools in Germany and a full time residential course at Heidelberg University, accommodated B&B with a German family (eat, sleep, breath the language) would have cost me £2,500 for seven weeks!!!

So, it's not just aviation that we get ripped off for in the UK.

If you want to make a fortune, get into training.

2close

[WexCan]

Your all mad...Why pay for a degree? In finland all higher eduction is FREE:ok:

Same in Ireland, apart from about €1k per year for student union fees and admin things.

For a single person, tax usually works out as follows:

Standard rate cutoff point: €32k

Tax at 20% up to SRCOP.
Tax at 42% above SRCOP.

Then PAYE workers get a tax credit of €1,490 and single person gets another tax credit of €1,630.

So, there's no tax free allowance, but you get deductions with the tax credits.

Works out well enough.

[Woof etc]

With time, your hours slowly build and so does your confidence and the reality that this is a job(for which we all have a passion 4) that should bring happiness and not extreme desperation in the early stages.

Good point and part of the reason underlying the whole sorry, sordid state of affairs. The problem is that a lot of the guys forking out these ludicrous amounts of money have very little experience of working in the industry, and are still so in love the romantic idea of being a pilot that they will pay anything to get into that RHS. How many times have you seen people on these forums saying 'to hell with it, fork out and live your dreams; do you want to spend the rest of your life wondering what might have been etc. etc.' Almost like being in the intial stages of a romance - all reason goes completely out the window.

Unfortunately those pilots with a bit more time and experience, and a more realistic understanding what it is like to work as a pilot, and that it is a job, not utopia - have to pay the stakes set by those on the lower rungs of the food chain to stay in the game. By the time the bottom suckers have realised that it is a job after all, it's too late - they've already fded it up for everyone else.

As far as employees in other industries paying for post grad training - sure it happens, but not for job specific training. If I had been told as an engineer that my company had decided to buy a new bit of kit, and that I would have to pay to get trained on it I would died laughing. Paying for a type rating is JOB SPECIFIC training - you didn't decide what aircraft your company chose to operate. In many cases type ratings are not readily transferrable, in fact some companies want you to redo the rating, and type ratings have a sell by date. Getting an MBA by comparison is personal enrichment, and usually such a qualification is motivated by the promise of higher remuneration. It is also a readily transferrable skill.

But at the end of the day, the only reason that aviaition employers can get away with steadily reducing T and C s, is because we let them.

It would be an interesting exercise if somene where to calculate the total amount of money spent on training, lost income, type ratings etc. (for all pilots, including those that dont secure employment) versus total income over an average flying career (and not everyone makes it to the LHS of a Cathay 747), and work out the return on investment. I'm not sure it would be in the black!