ME & IR questions (inc. renewal)

[philltowns]

Was just reading through 'Instrument Procedures' in my ATPL notes, and am looking at simultaneous operations on parallel runways. If my understanding is correct, there is no lateral separation provided for Independent Parallel Approaches.

Does this mean then, theoretically, that two aircraft could fly down their ILS's, directly abeam each other, same speeds and same heights (after the aircraft have passed the point where the 1000ft vertical separation is reduced), a mere 1035m laterally from each other - perhaps even closer if both deviate to the inner edges of their NOZ's!?

You could wave at the other passengers at that distance!

PT

[Cron]

NTZ width at least 610m from threshold out to a point where vert sep between a/c < 300m?

[philltowns]

Eeek, even less than I thought. I suppose when you put it in context, its over double the vertical separation. Just seems like a v small lateral distance.

[Avenger]

Usually simultaneous operations on parallel runways are used for take-off on say 24R and landing on say 24L and the scenario you outline would not exist..

Having said that.. in some locations, i.e Palma, they do allow Jet traffic to approach one Runway and the Egg-beaters/GA to overfly the ILS path and make VISUAL approaches onto the parallel runway.

I would stress that this only occurs in visual conditions as it is not unusual to get TCAS "traffic" alerts on the approach.

One might get a bit phased if bothe a/c had to initiate a missed approach at the same time!:ok:

[philltowns]

Hmmm, as I understood it, the scenario is quite possible. As for the missed approaches, apparently the paths have to diverge away from each other by at least 15 degrees. Scary!

[Dude~]

Does anyone know how long before your IR expires can you renew it and still get it to run for a year from the original expiry date? If it is in Lasors I can't seem to find it...

Thanks

[Keygrip]

Three months.

[european champion]

Why would you want to have it run from the original date?im asking this because mine is expired too,i think it is better to have it run from the new date,this way it lasts longer.i would like to ask also how long after the issue of the medical class one can someone renew his IR?Would it be ok to fly 3 years after the issue of medical,i believe the medical will still be valid for private flying or exam purposes.

[Dude~]

Mine isn't expired, which is why I want it to run from the original date

Class I medical isn't required for an IR, only for the CPL

[FL050]

Mine isn't expired, which is why I want it to run from the original date

Class I medical isn't required for an IR, only for the CPL

A Class I medical isn't required for a CPL - Class II is.

Why would you want it to go from the original date? If your 6 months hasn't yet expired you can still renew it quite easily, if you wait 6 months more, being a total of 1 year without renewing, than you have to re-take the test with an examiner.

Why not just go renew it and have it good for another 6 months rather than start from the original date?

[Charlie Zulu]

FL050,

We were talking about the JAA rules here in UK (Europe) which require a Class 1 for CPL holders to carry out the privilages of their licence. A Class 2 Medical is required for PPL holders under JAA rules.

The easy way of thinking is Class 1 for all professional flying, Class 2 for all Private flying.

We do not have a Class 3 medical since JAA started and thus PPL's have to have at least a Class 2 medical. A class 2 is NOT sufficient to carry out privilages of a JAA CPL or ATP.

Under the FAA rules (which I presume you are talking about), one has three categories of medicals. Class 1 for ATPL privilages and this runs for 6 months from the date of the original medical, Class 2 for CPL privilages and this runs for 12 months from the original date of medical and Class 3 for PPL privilages which run from the date of original medical to 24 or 36 months depending on age of holder.

Hope this helps.

[FL050]

Ahh ok. I was thinking you were referring to that as well. Sorry.

[Dude~]

Right, back to the original question.

My IR expires in June 2006.

If I renew it in March 2006 will it run for 12 months from June or will it run for 12 months from date of renewal?

I know you can renew for instance a Class I medical before it expires, and it then runs for 12 months from the original date of expirey, so does the same apply to the IR?

FL050 - not sure what you are refering to with 'your six months...' but anyway, my IR is still valid so I don't need a retest...

[mightymouse111]

Here's an idea, why not ring/email the CAA. Make them do some work for their hefty fees!
I know its a painful exercise but at least you will be getting it from the greedy horse's mouth.

[no sponsor]

If your IR expires on 1st June 2006, if you renew it on 2nd March (3 months prior to the renewal) it will now expire on 1st June 2007.

It is a bit like how the medical works, you can renew it before the expiry but it is renewed as if you had the exam on the day of expiry.

[machonepointone]

The IR can be revalidated up to three months before the expiry date of the current one and the new rating will run from the expiry date of the old one. If the test is done before the old one lapses it is called a revalidation. If the IR has lapsed then the test is a renewal. In either case the retest can be done by any CAA approved IRE. The test format is identical. Incidentally, it is often the case that the ME Class Rating is also due to expire at the same time as the IR, possibly earlier depending on when exactly the ME Class Rating Skill Test was done. Since the majority of IR examiners are also Class rating examiners it can be cheaper to combine both tests in one flight. Obviously the flight will be a little longer than just the IRT, but it will certainly be shorter and cheaper than doing two flights.

Class one medicals last for 12 months if the holder is under 40 years of age and 6 months for geriatrics like me who are over 40. The type of licence (ATPL or CPL) is irrelevant in this respect. I am assuming here that the holder is exercising the privileges of his/her licence. The medical can be revalidated up to 45 days before the validity of the previous one expires and the validity will run from the expiry date of the old one.

Hope this helps

[Round D. Globe]

I'm in the US with a JAR/CAA ATPL issued in Sep 2001 and with an expiry
this September. Does anyone know what is involved in renewing or revalidating this while in the US? I haven't flown in the UK since then and I would hate let it lapse. Suggestions?

[european champion]

Dude are you sure a valid medical is not required for the IR?Does that mean i can fly with an examiner for IR renewal without having my medical valid?

[Dude~]

Euro champ, sorry I wan't clear, I meant a Class I medical isn't required to use an IR, i didn't mean to imply to that you don't need to have a medical to use it.

As it happens I know that technically a PPL skills test candidate does not have to have a valid medical as long as the examiner is happy, and makes sure that the student knows that even if he passes he cannot fly without a medical...

I've a feeling you probably could revaildate/renew your IR without a medical but don't quote me!

machonepointone, thanks for that.

[plyen]

Just did a jet type rating, does anyone know if that also counts for IR renewal?

[FougaMagister]

When you receive/collect your licence back from the CAA (after you forked out £100 for the privilege), the page "ratings to be revalidated" will mention "737 EFIS (or -NG, or A320, or whatever you did your type rating on)/IR".

In other words, your IR will be specific to turbine aircraft, therefore it will NOT renew/revalidate your MEP/IR. For that, there is no substitute for renewing your IR on a MEP aircraft, or an approved sim (typically an FNPT II).

While I can't point to the exact paragraph of LASORS, I got that a couple of days ago from AFT's CFI, who happens to know LASORS backwards (sad, isn't it?)

Cheers :cool:

[Jannik23]

Hello Everybody

I HAve UK JAA licences but Im a danish citizen and live i DK. My SEP and IR/ME are about to expire and I need to revalidate them - I have emailed the CAA 3 times with no answer so now I have turned to you guys.

The SEP class rating requires that I have flown 12 hrs the last 12 months og have had a PFC within tha last 12 months also - I meet these requirements - but its the administrative part Im strugling with - I assume the CAA in UK need some kind of paperwork in order for me to have the SEP class ratin revalidated for another 2 yrs right ?

Last time I had it revalidated by P. Thompson he filled out some paperwork and sent it off to the CAA and he signed my rating-sheet in my license

What do I do now as Im in Denmark - whos gonna fill out the paperwork or can I do it my self and send copies of my logbook and latest PFC along with it to the CAA who will then approve this ??

please help

Jannik

[Keygrip]

Coincidence? Scary.

Anyway, Jannik, you CANNOT sign your own licence page - you have to find a JAA examiner and get them to sign the page BEFORE the expiry date for the SEP.

They are required to do this, free of charge, if you can show them log book evidence of having met the "last 12 months requirements" of which you speak. (12 hours total in SEP, at least 6 of them in command, at least 12 take-offs and landings, either one hour with a JAA qualified instructor OR any fixed wing flight test (the MEP for example)).

YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL are responsible to ensure that this is done BEFORE midnight on the day of expiry listed in your licence or your rating will lapse and you must take a flight test with an examiner to renew it. YOU are responsible for sending the correct form to the UK CAA even though the last one was sent for you - to make sure it got there. http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1119.PDF

For either the MEP or the Instrument Rating (IR-SPA-ME) - you must take a test every 12 months - so it doesn't matter if it expires, as the test will renew them.

If you have any more questions ASK before the expiry date of that rating!!!

[european champion]

I would think it is ok to renew the IR on a plane without medical.From what i know you dont need a medical to fly the simulator,i dont see why you need the medical to fly the plane when you will have someone else on board who will be the PIC.

[european champion]

I just asked CAA about medical requirements when doing a flight test for an IR renewal and they told me that the Medical doesnt have to be valid when conducting a skill test because the examiner will be PIC and use his medical.
Im trying to find this information in the JAR but i cant find it,anyone knows where i should look?

[plyen]

Thanks for your help!!!

[JS3]

My question for anyone who might know is:

If I do the single engine JAA CPL, and then the multi engine IR, does the multi engine rating transfer to the CPL, or is a separate rating and flight training course required?

I already hold an FAA CPL ME-IR.

[Linda Mollison]

JS3

When you complete your CPL application form you are asked whether you want the CPL issued for s/e aircraft or m/e aircraft.

You can tick both boxes if you want it issued against both ratings. The CAA may, or may not, charge you an extra £100 if you want it issued against both.

You will have an SEP class rating by virtue of the fact that you have done a s/e CPL.

You will have to do a JAA MEP test to convert your non-JAA MEP to a JAA one. This should be done before your IR skill test.

Linda

[Cobalt]

You need the multi-engine rating to do a ME IR - so your sequence would probably be CPL - MEP - IR. The MEP rating will of course be valid on your CPL.

When renewing the IR every 12 months, you normally renew your MEP rating in the same checkride - I don't know if you can do your IR skill test and MEP skill test in one single test, adding both MEP and IR at the same time.

If you have to go through an approved CPL course, there is an option to do the CPL in a ME and do a single skill test for CPL and ME rating. This saves a few flying hours.

C.

[BillieBob]

You need the multi-engine rating to do a ME IRNo, you must have completed all of the training for the MEP before commencing the multi-engine flying on a MEIR course. There is a difference.

[GusHoneybun]

The CPL is a licence. Multi Engine Piston, Single Engine Piston, Instrument Rating are ratings that are added to a licence.

If you hold a CPL and then do your MEP rating, the MEP rating is added to your CPL. The actual MEP course is the same regardless of the level of licence held.

And billie bob to clarify your comment. You need to have completed and passed your MEP rating prior to sitting the IR test. However you only need to have completed the training for a MEP rating prior to starting the IR course.

[SimJock]

So when you get your CPL what do you do with your PPL ? exchange it, bin it, file it ?

[BigGrecian]

So when you get your CPL what do you do with your PPL ? exchange it, bin it, file it ?
I still have mine.
They ask you to transfer the ratings page - but it basically get superseded by your Commercial...then it will expire...so your commercial will be the only valid licence you have.

[BongleBear]

Hi all, got to revalidate my ME/IR asap as theres a job relying on it! Ran out of validity July '05. Any ideas where to get it done quickly (and cheaply!)? I'd prefer to do it in a sim, but cost is number at the moment.... paying for type rating with airline once I've got this sorted! I'm in the south and am thinking about bournemouth...

Any ideas would be appreciated, thanks BBear

[Send Clowns]

Check you can do it in the sim (every other test must now be in the aircraft). Last I saw the BCFT sim was still the cheapest FNPT2 around.

[tailwheel76]

I believe flightpass at exeter has a sim that can be used to fully renew an IR....unless the rules have changed.

[BongleBear]

i'm pretty sure IR revalidations can be done on fnpt2, does anyone know any different?

[portsharbourflyer]

When I did my last renewal in the FNPT2, I was informed that every alternate renewal / revalidation has to be done in the aircraft. So if your last renewal was done in the sim, the next one will have to be in the aircraft, I am not sure from which date this rule applies.
(sorry, just realised Send Clowns has already stated this)

So if your previous renewal/ revalidation was done in the aircraft then yes you can renew in the sim.

[Craggenmore]

Yes, its alternate years

Just did mine today in the FNPT2 - totally knackered now!!

[Sprawler]

Does the renewal in the sim still allow you to renew your IR-SPA-ME rating even if your MEP class rating has expired?
I pressume you'll have to do a seperate MEP check flight in order to do the IR renewal in the a/c the following year??

[Send Clowns]

If flown in the aircraft an IR renewal can also renew an MEP with just one or two extra exercises.

[READY MESSAGE]

The alternate year rule doesn't affect us in the UK I don't think. Something to do with ANO ammendments and the fact that it requires an Act of Parliament or something. It's been discussed here before.

I saw an advert for Mannair recently in Wales - hours revision with an instructor on FNPT2 then your renewal all for £395. Not a bad deal I thought.

[Mark Collins]

Check out Mike Boulton at STS in bournemouth website below:

http://www.simulatortrainingservices.co.uk/

He is a good guy and does a lot of IR renewal stuff in his fnpt2 sim.

[underread east]

Why do you need a single pilot IR if you are paying for a type rating with an airline that will give you a multi pilot IR as part of the LPC/OPC at the end of the course? Ask them. You're not likely to ever need it again if you pass your rating and land the job. Why waste the cash when it could be better spent paying of all those loans?

I was in a similar situation several years ago, and the airline I now work for didn't really care about the IR as they were about to pay for the multi pilot IR anyway. Just talk to them and see if it really does matter.

BTW good luck!

[Craggenmore]

Why do you need a single pilot IR if you are paying for a type rating with an airline that will give you a multi pilot IR as part of the LPC/OPC at the end of the course?Everyone agrees with you but in the majority of cases you simply need a valid MEIR to apply!

[BillieBob]

Craggenmore is correct - the CAA have recently changed the rules or, more correctly, have implemented the proper rules. You now need to have a valid MEIR to commence a first MPA type rating, and an IR is valid for only 12 months.

One of the TRTOs that I work for has recently had an application rejected because the trainee had not renewed his IR for 3 years before starting the type rating course - under the old rules that would have been OK, but not now.

[Whopity]

You cannot RENEW in an FNPTII, if you do, its invalid. AL4 to JAR-FCL1.246 Sept 2005! Every other revalidation may be conducted in a FNPT II. Renewals must be conducted in an aeroplane.

[Craggenmore]

You cannot RENEW in an FNPTII.....if it has expired by more than 5 years but less than 7 OR more than 7 years.

If it's less than 5 years, its a proficiency check with NO mention of the word aeroplane.

Lasors Section E, Page 6

AL4 to JAR-FCL1.246 Sept 2005 is no clearer either!

???

[sawotanao]

can anyone clarify the difference between a renewal and a revalidation? Many thanks :confused:

[Dougle Mcguire]

Am I right or wrong......... A MEIR is VALID for 5 years after your initial test or renewal but only CURRENT for 1 year. As far as I was aware...... you only had to have a valid IR to apply for your initial type rating. Please correct me if Im wrong.

[BillieBob]

Am I right or wrong......... You are wrong. That used to be the case under UK national arrangements but now, in the brave new world of JAR, an IR is valid for one year - end of story. In JAR-FCL there is no distinction between 'valid' and 'current'.
Even the CAA got this wrong for a while but, in LASORS 2006, they have changed the requirement to align with JAR-FCL. You now need a valid (i.e. revalidated within the preceding year) IR before starting a first MPA type rating course. A number of type rating applications have been rejected by the Belgrano recently because the applicant did not have a valid MEIR.

[flyingbug]

Hi BBear,

having spent some time in the same dilemma, I would certainly recommend renewing your IR/MEP on an aircraft - the cheapest that I found was at Elstree airport (not too far from Oxford) and the examiner was very fair and good value for money. He also organised the aircraft.
In total the renewal came to about £500 (including the aircraft hire and exam fees). Its not fair to post the examiners name here, but I have his contact details. If you want them, drop me an email.

Cheers

fb

[DTYSAPCO]

Got my IR to renew soon.

Just wondered if you had any comments....

Cheers,

Dtysapco:)

[Frank Furillo]

I take it by MB you mean Mike Boulton????? If so you will have no problems at all, super guy, very very good
FF

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi there
I second that.I have used Mike's services for three renewals so far and he is very,very good.He renders an excellent service that is above and beyond the usual level.A decent skin, who also has a nice King Air sim in Bournemouth.
Highly recommended.
regards
TDD:ok:

[boredpilot]

Did mine via Mike in December. Excellent value.

[bolty_1000]

Just booked mine in with Mike too.....good to know he has a good rep!

Starting the IR in July!

[Whopity]

1. You cannot do an IR Renewal in a FNPT

2. You can only do alternate revalidations in an FNPT

It all changed with AL4 to JAR-FCL1 Sept 05.

[Robthestudent]

I think you will find Mike has an FNPT2 which you can renew an IR on.
Regards alternating the sim with aircraft I am fairly sure that is not yet mandatory but will happen in the not too distant however I am sure I may be corrected.

[Jude]

Does anyone have the definative answer, whether alternate IR revalidations have to be done on the aircraft yet? LASORS says so but is it ratified yet?

[Whopity]

JAR-FCL1 AL5 March 2006 ww.jaa.nl (http://www.jaa.nl)
AIC 3/2006 dated 5 Jan 2006
3.1 The changes introduced by Amendment 4 to JAR-FCL 1 are in the main beneficial to those affected by these requirements and are introduced with immediate effect where this is not precluded by the Air Navigation Order 2005. The Air Navigation Order 2005 will only preclude these changes where it cross-refers to specific paragraphs of JAR-FCL 1. For present purposes, this occurs in the ANO at Schedule 8 Part C Section 2 which contains requirements for revalidation of aeroplane ratings by cross-referencing numbered paragraphs of JAR-FCL 1. In such cases, the ANO sets the legal requirement because it has not yet been updated to reflect Amendment 4 to JAR-FCL 1. However in all other revalidation cases, the legal requirement will be reflected in Amendment 4.

[pilotpaul]

There is no question that you CAN do an IR Renewal in a FNPT II Simulator.

[Cold_Blue_95]

VOR navigation is kicking my :mad: ! I haven't yet reached the point in training where I'm learning it in the plane... I'm just in the reading stage and trying to figure it out on Micro flight sim. My main problem seems to be interpreting the CDI needle and translating that into what I need to do to intercept the correct course. Can someone help put it into "Layman's Terms" for me?

[XL5]

A 10 second internet search dredged up http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/vor-nav.htm . Seems quite basic.

[AerocatS2A]

What, specifically, are you having trouble with?

it is generally fairly simple, you turn the knob so the head of the needle is on your desired track. The CDI then represents where your desired track is, and the centre of the display is where you are. You just turn towards the CDI until it comes back towards the centre.

[sstaurus]

The part that confused me, was that the heading you are tracking is the radial coming out the other side of the VOR station. Always turn into the needle in this case, when the radial points in the same general direction you are heading. But if you say selected a 90 deg radial, and were headed west, reverse needle sensing applies (in other words turn away from the needle).

The part I don't quite get is intercepting... Say you are on the 45deg radial from a station, heading east, and you select the 90 deg radial. You would have to turn right. I assume you would purposely fly a heading of 135 deg in order to make a 45 deg intercept angle? (or whatever angle of intercept chosen).

Anyway, hope I can help us both here, :ok:

[AerocatS2A]

But if you say selected a 90 deg radial, and were headed west, reverse needle sensing applies (in other words turn away from the needle).
If you are heading west then you don't select 090. You always select the track that matches the track you want.

If you were in a situation where you had been heading west and then you want to turn around and track in to the east, then you select the 090 radial, do a 180 turn and once you're heading in roughly the right direction you turn towards the needle for the intercept.


The part I don't quite get is intercepting... Say you are on the 45deg radial from a station, heading east, and you select the 90 deg radial. You would have to turn right. I assume you would purposely fly a heading of 135 deg in order to make a 45 deg intercept angle? (or whatever angle of intercept chosen).

That's correct.

[Cold_Blue_95]

Probably doesn't help that I'm trying to learn VOR at midnight, after a full day of dealing with kids, followed by 8 hours of dealing with the criminally insane.

[Whopity]

Radials as their name implies radiate FROM and never go TOwards!

[too_sleepy]

Hi
After checking Lasors I'm no better off.

I started a multi rating with one school but in one week I only managed to get one hour done. I'm now at a new school and want to get credit for that one hour.
Has any tried to do this? The school down't think it's possible, obviously...

Thanks

[Mercenary Pilot]

Get your new school to apply for your training record. There has to be one and your old school cant refuse.:ok:

[Superpilot]

One hour:confused: Is it worth the hassle?

[Deano777]

At 350 pounds per hr, to some people yes it's worth the hassle

[pilotpaul]

£350 a hour!! you doing your multi in a 737?!?!?!?!

[Mercenary Pilot]

Try £4000 per hour 737 (going rate for 6 touch&go's!):eek: £350 is about right for ME/IR training, ME training should be a little cheaper though.

Its not only the cost but the principle anyway, it should only take a quick phone call from your new school to get your record.

[too_sleepy]

Hi
Thanks for the replies. I know it doesn't seem like a lot of money when you're spending thousands on the IR and CPL but towards the end of training my bank account will be very very low and 300 pounds will suddenly seem like an awful lot of money to throw away.

I'll ask my new school to request my record. I'll let you know if it's successfull.

Thanks again.

[Stuck in a moment...]

I have a JAA frozen ATPL and MEIR, but have not revalidated either my IR or MEP since initial issue in 2003. Can I fly as co-pilot in an N reg MEP aircraft in the UK with those qualifications, if the PIC has a full FAA ATPL and MEIR? Can I also log the hours? I have searched Lasors, but needle in a haystack springs to mind.:confused:

[FlyingForFun]

Hmm, I think you need to review your air law.

1) There is no such thing as co-pilot in an MEP.
2) You can not act as a required member of crew if your license and associated ratings are not valid.
3) I don't think you can act as a pilot of an N-registered aeroplane, even in the UK, on a JAR license. I'm not 100% on this one, but an FAA license based on your JAR license will give your privileges of a PPL only I think, and I don't think you can use your JAR IR at all without converting it to an FAA IR.

So, if you were required, you would most definitely not be able to act in any capacity.

However, since you are not required (MEP aircraft are single crew, and the single crew member will be the FAA ATP you refer to), you may fly as a passenger. The captain of the aircraft may choose to delegate some of his workload to you, under his supervision, but you are not technically acting as a crew member (co-pilot or anything else).

You can not log this time in any way, since you are acting as nothing more than a passenger. However, LASORS suggests that if you want to keep a record of it (for your own purposes) you can record it in your logbook, and mark your operating capacity as "SNY" which means "supernumary". You must not include the flight time in any of your flight time totals.

FFF
---------------

[umbongo]

thought i understood this but have just read LASORS and am now confused....

i didn’t think you had to do a multi engine rating before starting a multi engine IR course - it does kind of make sense, however, i thought the whole multi/ir thing was done as one course, after the SE CPL?

if that is the case, i guess its best to do a multi engine CPL course to kill two birds with one stone - or is that biting off too much at once??!


also, i did a flight recently to Scotland - about 330Nm, stopping at two airfields along the way - is that a valid trip for the CPL x-country? (ie three trips of 100ish Nm in one day, but not a closed loop)

cheers!

[Keygrip]

Yes, yes and yes.

You do need "training complete" for multi I/R.

You can get the rating cheaper by doing CPL in Multi.

300 miles is 300 miles.

[EGCC4284]

I did the last 8 hours of my 28 hour CPL course on the multi so as to get the multi rating at the same time as the CPL.

I then did the first 30 hours of the IR training using the single before doing the last 20 hours back on the twin for the IR test.

Its the cheapest way to do it.

[cavortingcheetah]

:ooh:

Can any one please make some suggestions as to a quality place in the UK to do some simulated refresher IR flying (min 5 hours) and the IR renewal test? I quite understand that this may necessitate a PM in order not to infringe advertising policy. Thank you.:)

[Krallu]

Hi all!

When you fly IFR you get the whole time to be IFR time.
But actual instrument time is only logged when you fly only with reference to the instruments.

But how do you do when you fly sometimes into clouds then free of clouds and then back into clouds for a while. You can't sit and time all the time you are in clouds. How do you normally do? Do you estimate with your best judgment the time used solely instruments?

And how about flying with autopilot, is this accounted as instrument time as well if you ar in clouds with autopilot?

Thx!

[hixton]

Does anyone use any acronyms for checks etc at the final approach fix?

[FlyingForFun]

Yes. Your school will tell you what to use. Just as if you go to an airline, you will be expected to follow airline SOPs and use their checklist, when you do commercial training, you will need to follow the school's SOPs and use their checklist - so (assuming that you are doing an IR course) telling you what checks I use won't help you.

FFF
---------------

[hixton]

Im not looking for help, I was asking to see if there was much difference in the way people tackle the same things.
Feel free to share!

[bunk]

ILS inop equipment. We can substitute the MM with CL or PAR, but what if we dont have either? Approach authorized? Change minimums?

[scroggs]

You need to clarify your question and define under which regulations you are working. FAA, CAA, something else?

Scroggs

[bunk]

FAA. If the middle marker on an ILS approach becomes inoperative, can we fly the approach? I know we can substitute the middle marker with a compass locator or PAR. If there is no compass locator and a PAR is not available, can we still fly the ILS? How will our minimums for the approach be affected?
Thanks!

[rhovsquared]

Bunk: it should be noted on the procedure: ie if LOM to ILS 14 is INOP CL may be substituted ... or not... could then change to a Loc only PAR is a total substitute for ILS --- but I've never encountered it ... depends on the procedure I'd say :)

[scroggs]

The procedure may state that radar or DME is required, but I think it would be an unusual ILS approach where a MM is required. ILS is a precision approach aid on its own, and the go-around point is defined by DA/DH. The only purpose of a MM these days is to define the go-around point for a LOC-only approach. PARs are almost unheard of in the civilian world; they are primarily a military device.

I shall have 6 or so hours to study the Jeppessen manual on the way back to UK tonight, so I'll see if I can get chapter and verse for you.

Scroggs

[bunk]

I cant find anything about inoperative equipment on my Jeppessen plates(except GS out). The only thing I can find in the manual is INOP visual aids and new minimums. :hmm:
Filip: I just wanted to know if it was authorized to fly. Better to fly an approach with lower minimums if possible, right?

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

When I go for JAA IR/ME renewal, do I do it with an CAA examiner or with an authourized instructor like the with the FAA. Do I need to send in any application?

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

You need to do it with an examier who has IR renewal authority. Most schools that teach CPL/IR have one to hand, and it is just a question of booking a slot and doing the test. The test is a lot less formal than the initial, and you don't have to go into class A.

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

Ok thanks a lot for the answere.

[John001]

Hi all,

I've been unable to find anything with the search function so perhaps someone can help point me in the right direction.

I'm trying to find some information on what the JAA Instrument rating test entails, I believe there is a standard 'format'? What precisely is examined?
(eg airways flying, RT, non-precision approach etc)
I have a dinosaur dial-up connection so I thought I'd just put out this post before I started downloading lots of JAR files!:)

regards

John.

[Aim High]

There are two sources:

The CAA website (Guidance for the IR skill test)

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=1303

Keynotes for Pilots The JAA IR Skill Test

[buzzc152]

Basically the format is this (the order of each bit is not necessarily in the order I've stated but the full test will involve each part) :

Briefing (pay the man, £800 almost..... ouch)
45 mins or so to plan.
IFR departure
Airways to destination
1 X precision approach (ie ILS)
Engine failure on go around
General handling (unusual attitudes, partial panel, stalls etc)
1 x hold (assymetric I seem to remember)
1 x non preciosion approach (assymetric again)
Assymetric go-around
Land
Fail...... cry, get drunk, start a fight, have another go next week (ask Dad for another £800)
Pass......run up and down the runway naked like a mad man waving your arms, get drunk, tell girls your a pilot, get laid.

Serioulsy, passing the IR is about the best feeling ever.

[charliejulietthotel]

Hi, just wandering what questions people were asked on their multi engine class rating test, how deep into subjects such as performance and principals of flight do the questions go, I’m doing it on a Seneca if that makes any difference?! Thanks for any information, much appreciated. CJH

[jasperyellow]

I did my MECR on the Seneca too. The questions I was asked were all very straightforward and could all be found in the aircraft handbook. You need to demonstrate to the examiner that you have an apppreciation of the systems on the aircraft. The questions I was asked needed me to know the type of flaps on the Seneca, the maximum fuel on board, how the heater works and which tank feeds the heater amongst others. Basically read the pilots handbook and use some common sense and you will be fine - do remember though that you are being tested for a multi engine class rating and not just a Seneca rating so some of the questions may be concerning the class of aircraft rather than just being Seneca specific.

[KrazyKraut]

There is no fixed list of type-specific questions you should prepare, but you obviously need to be aware of the aircraft systems and limitations (weights/speeds etc).

The non-type specific topics you might want to prepare include:

- procedures following EFATO
- asymmetric handling issues
- what is ACA/H
- 'critical' and 'safety' speeds
- single-engine performance and what affects it
- critical engine
- CSU operation

etc.

Good luck,

KK

[mahmoodnz]

i think it works not really sure because i am doing my training in newzealand i have completed ppl and cpl x country i am doing my multi ifr now with my ppl license once i get my cpl it will go directly into my cpl license

[A330 Dreamer]

Hi,

just out of curiosity, in the PPL syllabus it went like:

Ex 3 - effects of controls
Ex 4 - effects of controls (II) - if I remember rightly

Can anyone describe if the CPL syllabus is similar and what sort of exercises can be expected during the training?

Cheers

C

[Schimmel]

Hi all, I need some help,

I have still a few more questions to the UK licence holder regarding revalidation/renewal of a CPL/IR Licence (Frozen ATPL).:confused:


1. IFR Renewal:

If my IFR Rating (SEP) lapsed may I renew my IFR Rating (SEP) with a Class Rating Examiner (CRE) or does the examiner has to be an Instrument Rating Examiner (IRE)? How it is regulated in UK?

2. Medical:
I still have no job and therefore I would like to extend only my Medical Class 1 if the the Medical class 2 runs off soon, in order to save a little money.

a) Can I re-activate my Medical Class 1, after an expiration date of scarcely one year, easily by AME? or do I have to go even to the AMC? How it is regulated in UK?


b) How much does an AME approximately cost for a Medical Class 1 in UK?

3. Radiotelephony Operators Licence:

I noticed that the british Flight Radiotelephony Operators Licence is
limited valid – for ten years.How do you extend the validity? Do you have to pass an examination? Or it is only a formality if someone is in the possession of a flight crew license?


So many questions, sorry. But I hope that a few people will answer my questions. Cordial thanks in advance. :ok:

[MVE]

Try asking the question in FI and examiners forum......:ok:

[dartagnan]

all my licenses are expired and will be renewed when doing the t/rating, or just before the t/rating...

save your money, look for a job, and when called by an airline, you will renew.Probably they will ask you to change to another CAA office where the airline is based.

[Schimmel]

Thks. dartagnan, but how will you renew the licenses if you doing the t/rating...or just before. That´s my question above. Is really nobody here, who can answer me at least the questions 1 - 2 :( ?

[Canadian]

My last IR renewal was in Oct 2005 and was done on an FNPT2. Is it possible to renew it again this year on a sim or does it have to be done in an aircraft as per LASORS 2006?

I seem to remember a post from a lady called Linda Mollison suggesting that the requirement in LASORS is not currently being enforced. Does anyone have any first-hand knowledge of this?

Thanks.

[Mercenary Pilot]

According to LASORS you have to renew in the aircraft every other year. However, LASORS is not the law and they publish stuff in there that hasn’t been enforced yet.

I believe Linda is the part owner of Professional Air Training (Bournemouth), one of the most well regarded flight schools in the UK so I would guess her comments are based on fact. Maybe it might be worth giving them a call to see what their interpretations of the rules are.

[Linda Mollison]

This is the reply I received from the CAA on 11 July this year:

The proposed amendment to the ANO is imminently to go to the Department for Transport for transposition into the law. This process will take some 3 months. The amendment changes the reference to JAR-FCL to Amendment 5 (although we will have Amendment 6 before that happens!). Until then Amendment 3 is the reference which permits (or can be interpreted to permit) the use of FNPTs for IR revalidation and renewal. There is still a question mark over whether this change will need to go to open consultation as it may have a cost impact in having to use an aeroplane for renewals and alternating revalidations. However, the number of pilots affected should be very small as IR revalidation is normally combined with the class or type rating proficiency check. It would thus normally only apply to the holder of a multi-engine IR who is only flying SEP class aeroplanes. DfT will no doubt decide. Once the proposed amendment is laid before parliament we will know the effective date of the legislative change.

a) I disagree with his comment that 'the number of pilots affected should be small' (and told him so - with no response of course). In our experience most of our IR renewals are only renewing the IR, not the MEP, as they want to have a current IR on their cv, but know that the airlines are not interested in the MEP being current.

b) the new rules are likely to be implemented sometime around October this year. Until then the old rules still apply, i.e. you can do a renewal, or a revalidation, in the FNPT2 every year.

It is a revalidation if you do it before the expiry date, and a renewal if you do it after the expiry date.

One point to note is the fact that once this rule is implemented you will not be able to use the FNPT2 to renew your IR, i.e. once you pass your expiry date (even by one day) you will have to do the renewal in the aircraft.

Linda

[Canadian]

Thanks very much Linda, I think I'll get my revalidation done ASAP before the new rules come into effect. I'll be starting a type rating in the next 3-4 months so I too only need a valid IR and not the ME class rating as well!

[Mooneyboy]

Hello everyone,

Time as ever seems to have crept up on me and my JAA multi runs out early September. My JAA IR runs out in January.

To save cost I think the best thing would be to do the IR early together with the Multi. Does anyone know any places maybe in the the Midlands where ME/IR can be done? Also I have access to N reg twin can you do it in that so reducing the cost of having to rent a twin?

Also I might be doing a type rating in January could the IR renewal be done or signed off in that meaning that I would have to do just the multi in September?

Anyone got any solutions would be much appreciated.

Best regards

Mooneyboy:ok:

[Mercenary Pilot]

Hi

If its your first Type Rating you need to have a current SPA IR. The cheapest route is to forget about your MEP rating and just renew your IR in an FNPT2 simulator. I guess the closest place to you would be The Flight Centre at Wolverhampton Business Airport.

[Mooneyboy]

Thanks for the reply Mercenary pilot. I would really need to get my multi because I am actively flying a twin at the moment. I will probaly give Wolverhampton I good look I heard they are meant to be very good there. Knew about the FNPT 2 renewal for IR at another well known place and it turned out very expensive about what I would expect to pay for just the plane for a proper flight test.

Also my apologese for posting a new thread again as ME/IR renewal when there was already one a few slots down:O . Think I need to practice my scan!

Best regards,

Mooneyboy.

[DragStrut]

Hi all

couple of questions for you, about to start Type Rating an the next two months but my IR expires in two weeks.

1) is it now mandatory to have a valid IR in order to embark on you first Type Rating?? some say it isnt but then some new legislation leads me to believe that it now has to be current.

2)also has the ruling come into effect now that states if your IR lapses then you must renew it in the actual aircraft as opposed to simply revalidating it in the sim?

Thanx very much in anticipation or replies..

Dragstrut :ugh: :ugh:

[EGBKFLYER]

Two small points:

1) The rule about alternating sim/ aircraft for renewals still has not come into force, despite being in LASORS 2006. Linda's post above is still valid and current.

2) Although you need a valid IR to commence an initial type rating, don't forget that if you're flying a multi-pilot aircraft, you end up with a MPA IR at the end of the TR. Your ME(SPA)IR doesn't give you MPA IR privileges and your MPA IR doesn't give you SPA IR privileges. Therefore if you have a shiny type rating on a 737 or something and still want to fly in clouds in your PA34, you still need to renew your old IR separately. Phew!:\

[Schimmel]

How about Medical Revalidation/Renewal:

I still have no job and therefore I would like to extend only my Medical Class 1 if my Medical class 2 runs off soon, in order to save a little money.

a) May I re-activate my Medical Class 1, after an expiration date of scarcely one year, easily by AME? or do I have to go even to the AMC? How it is regulated in UK?:{

b) How much does an AME approximately cost for a Medical Class 1 in UK?

Thanks

[EGBKFLYER]

Schimmel,

If you renew Class 1, you automatically have Class 2 privileges, so no need to do a separate class 2 medical.

All costs for medicals in the UK are set by the AME individually so it is worth shopping around - I paid £60 last year for a class 1 and £110 the year before!

You can go to any AME that does Class 1 medicals to renew your class 1. There is no difference if you last held a class 1 some time ago or are just renewing normally.

If you need to know more, this is the medical section at the CAA website:

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=49

See especially the section 'find an AME' to locate a doctor for you.

[LDG_GEAR _MONITOR]

well i rang the CAA this morning about the IR renewel in a sim - they reckon as i used sim last year its an aircraft this year ! does anyone have the definative answer ?

[EGBKFLYER]

:confused: Yes - ring them again and ask to speak to Mike Grierson. He told my examiner last Tuesday that sim is still acceptable every year for now and I completed same last Friday.

As a back-up, PM Linda Mollinson above and ask for the name of the person who signed that letter - more evidence.

Sheesh - CAA really don't help do they?:ugh:

Good luck

[Canadian]

Linda Mollinson has spoken to the CAA today and had it confirmed that you can still renew/revalidate your IR on the sim in consecutive years. The statement in LASORS has not come into effect yet as the ANO hasn't been changed.

I too rang the CAA last week and they told me that revalidations had to be done in the a/c every alternate year. They are giving out duff info!

[EGBKFLYER]

I say do your renewal in the sim and let's see what happens - they never check anyway!

[DragStrut]

Hi All

thanks for the excellent replies.

Just to confirm ive just got off the phone with the CAA and they have confirmed to me that if the IR lapses it is still at the moment ok to complete the renewal in a simulator. The porposal has not yet been through parliament and as such is not yet in force.

It will be legal in the not too distant future but at the moment it is perfectly acceptable to renew a lapsed IR in the simulator.

Dragstrut :O :O

[EGBKFLYER]

Dragstrut - care to post the name of the person at the CAA who told you this? That way anyone else can speak to them with a similar query and hopefully stop the confusion...

[Schimmel]

Thank you EGBKFLYER for your information,

but I know that I will have automatically Class 2 privileges if I renew Class 1. The Class 2 is for example, in Germany, more cheaper than the Class 1. And I want also to let my IFR (SEP) lapsed - for one year , in order to save the money for my yearly check.

I have no desire to make a renewal by the AMC, which is very cost-intensive with stricter examination:}, that´s why I asked that for.

But, the link at the CAA website which you gave me, it seems like to be that a renewal for Class 1 may be made also by AME not only by AMC, respectively only for the initial JAR Class 1 examination has to be done by the AMC, right ?

By the way, I paid 240 Euro for my AME (Class 1) in Germany– it seems that he had robbed me :ugh:. Next time I will go to an AME in UK.

Last question due I want to convert my german JAR CPL/IR into a UK JAR CPL/IR licence...

I noticed that the british Flight Radiotelephony Operators Licence is
limited valid – for ten years. Do you have to pass an examination? How do you extend the validity? For exampel the german Flight Radiotelephony Operators is valid for an unlimited period.

Thanks in advance and sorry for my bad english knowledge.

[Keygrip]

Schimmel, the British "FRTOL" does, as you say, have a limited life (but it is issued free of charge if done to support a flight crew licence).

The CAA will simply issue you with another FRTOL to renew the outgoing one IF YOU CAN SHOW that you have operated either light aircraft in UK airspace (for a reasonable amount of time/experience) OR have operated heavy public transport aircraft in Western Europe, during the lifetime of the expiring FRTOL.

By "heavy" I mean relative to a Seneca or C172.

[Schimmel]

Thanks Keygrip for your reply.

Just only for confirmation,:

By "heavy" I mean relative to a Seneca or C172.

You mean that is not sufficiently to have been flown a Seneca, C172, Piper Archer, etc. in Western Europe, it has to be a heavy public transport aircraft or/respectively a light aircraft in UK airspace? Correct? Pls. confirm.

By the way , Today I have received my JAR UK CPL IR due of conversion. Cool blue book, it looks much more better and more professional than the German rag :yuk:. And a very friendly service of the CAA. God save the UK CAA :).

But now, I have one more question :rolleyes:.

I would like to to acquire the MEP Rating with IFR.

a)How many hours do I have to fly, in order to receive the MEP with IFR in UK? , now I have a JAR UK CPL IR (SEP).

After my level of knowledge I should fly 6 hours (MEP VFR) plus 5 hours (IFR), thereof 3 hours can be flown on simulator. Or as alternative according JAR FCL 9 hours, but then however everything must be flown real. Ist that correct?

c) Can you give me still finally a tip, where I can acquire the MEP IR very cheap, also abroad. Any suggestions ? Thank you.

[Willing to sell soul]

Hi Pruners,

I have searched, but can't find the answer so far.....

My ME/IR lapsed 2 and a half years ago. Can I renew on FNPTII or does it have to be on the aircraft? Obvisously cost is the issue here.

Thanks in advance.

WTSS

[SFI145]

Your IR can be renewed in an FNPT 2 but the ME Class rating must be done in an aircraft if you want to renew this.

[Superpilot]

Further to that, every OTHER IR renewal must be on an a/c.



..... I think

[MCKES]

What is a better rating to start out with? Both would be with a multi-engine endorsement.
Thanks,
Sam;)

[leelea]

Hi everyone.
Just wanted to find out a good place to do my IR Renewal before the new changes occur to renewals.
I renewed my IR in Jan 2004 in the FNPT2 at Bristol but i want to do it again before the new rule changes and cost is a factor.
I'm living in the South East now but i'll go back to Bristol if there is nothing nearer.
Regards

[eghi r20]

Did mine with mike bolton from what was S.T.S at bournemouth on sept 11th.

Great new sim 'duchess' config. practice and test same day what more could you want.

no regrets at all, give him a call.

I am one happy punter !!

no i dont work for them blah...blah.....


http://www.simulatortrainingservices.co.uk/contact.html

Regards


EGHI

[Piltdown Man]

You want to do the one that will get you employed the quickest. May I suggest that 'Down-under' you'll have more chance with an Instructor Rating. The CIR is only a matter of time and money and don't fortget that you'll probably be able to get the training at a better rate in the organisation where you instruct.

Best of Luck.

PM

[Droopy]

I am looking at renewing my long since lapsed IR[H] which would involve the IR exams. The ordeal of resitting exams I passed over 20 years ago is one that I don't relish :sad: and I'll only be able to do it as a distance learning package. I've sniffed round a couple of the appropriate schools but the request seems to be one they're not used to.

Does anyone have similar experience or recommendations? Thanks in advance.

[Linda Mollison]

Try Ground Training Services at Bournemouth

[fkelly]

Why not buy the BGS CD and 3 months worth of question bank? Slightly overkill on the content but the cheapest option?

[Hour Builder]

This may not help in the slightest, but IR (A) exams are exactly the same as IR (H), so try asking for this at the schools.
Second thought, they probably all know this anyway and would have said something....I'll post this pointless piece of info anyway :ugh:

[jimpearce]

I've just revalidated mine at Stapleford Flight centre. Probably far more convenient than Bristol if you're in the South-east.
I was very impressed with the place and Eric was very good as I needed a few hours to gety up to speed.
Regards,
Jim.

[Jinkster]

Just done mine with Multiflight at Leeds - CFI Andy Todd

:ok:

[class a]

Just done my MEP/IR renewal at Willowair at Southend top club very helpful and the PA34 is Around £240 per hr including vat

[Edinburgh]

Hello fellow pilots.

Since I soon will be renewing my MEP-IR, I am wondering if it is possible to get information about what different routes people have had to fly during their airline screening.

I know that many of the companies do sim screening before hireing and it would be fun to practice these routes on the sim and not just some random local procedure.

Can anyone tell me the normal screening profile for GECAT, BMI Regional, Ryanair, Easyjet, Flyglobespan, and others.

Thank you for your help.

Edinburgh :cool:

[scroggs]

If you search on the 'Interview, Jobs and Sponsorships' forum you will find all the info you need. However, don't forget that these simulator profiles change regularly.

Scroggs

[leelea]

Thanks for your help guys.
I'm off to MB in Bournemouth he can squeeze me in.

Many Thanks for the advice.

[speedy688]

I'm after any information on the IR renewal profile (FNPT2) at multiflight in Leeds. I've heard they use a standard profile but wanted a bit more info i.e. specific departures, arrivals etc, and if multiflight are any good. I'm just not sure how much practice I need before doing the test as its been 12 months since doing any instrument flying.

Thanks

[Aircart]

Hi, Did my renewal not so long ago with Multi and can say that I was happy with it all!
You will prob do a Pole 1? Dep out of Leeds then pick up the Airway.
From there you will divert to the LBA for a hold entry and then proc. NDB.
Go around then Radar to ILS. Thats it, no probs.
You will do practice session then test, I hadn't done any instrument for 12 months and I had no probs!
Enjoy, Cheers Aircart

[Keygrip]

No limited panel?

[Aircart]

No, not that I remember! It is all straight forward, they tell you everything you need to know in the practice.

AC

[dartagnan]

damn, thats expensive!!!i did mine in the USA(for my FAA IR) for 100$(1 hour real flight plus flight instructor)
do you have a moneytree in your backyard???

[Mr Man]

Yep, did my IR renewal also with multiflight,also a sim ride to prepare for my sim ride for the job I'm in now.I heard a few negative rumours before going but was pleasantly suprised by their professional,friendly and down to earth approach,not unique but quite rare with northern schools,in my opinion.
Highly reccommended!

Hi Aircart!

[Jinkster]

POL1W out of Leeds. to POL then airway to GASKO before turning back to LBA - hold to ILS, hold to NDB asym. Circuit to land.

Had great fun - first IR renewal!

:ok:

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi Lads
I'm planning to go to the UK (Bournemouth) to renew my ME-IR soon, with my IAA-issued JAA license, clutched in my hot little fisht.Can I anticipate any problems with the Irish feds when I get home? I presume I have to get copies of all the school's approvals,etc. Does the school have to be specifically IAA-Approved?
regards
TDD

[sawotanao]

Just passed my first renewal in the sim 12 months since any proper IFR flying, Rang CAA, said its still ok in FNPT2 till end of the year...ish. All @ EGTC Did a SID( Stony-Welin), inc. DME arc to NDB, Hold, 2engine ILS, G/A followed by engine failure on the G/A, no delay NDB let down (single engine), missed app' & circle to land. Followed by general handling, inc. 30 deg AoB turns, partial panel, timed turns and stalls. Did an hour practice then test.Pm me for any further info/help.:ok:

[Jinkster]

well done old boy :ok:

[sawotanao]

Cheers Jinky, don't have too many sherberts at that do:eek: I've seen what you can do to a garden fence and deck chair after a swift half....or 6:uhoh:
Spk soon my old fruit.;)

[IRISHPILOT]

Hello 2DD,
did the same some years ago, the school needed no IAA approval. But as my MEIR had expired, the IAA would have preferred to have been asked in advance, to prescribe 5 hours of training.
No harm calling them, I suppose, I've found them very helpful.

dartagnan, under FAA this is much cheaper. Under JAR, you either do it in the sim, which is around GBP350 cheapest, or in the real aircraft, which for a ME is 220 Euros per hour in my place, examiner fee is a bottle of Ballentines, CAA charges nothing. - Most people seem here seem to do it in the UK, which is easily double, so that's why they do it in the sim.
cheers, IP

[ChocksAwayUK]

Does anyone have any reccommendations of anywhere near London to renew the IR? Looks like I won't be getting on a Type Rating before I lapse next month :uhoh:

Really looking to avoid Stapleford (nothing against them, just fancy a change from where I did my traning). Any experience of Wycombe, Redhill.. any others.. Cabair places? Would appreciate information on cost, training, ease(!) what happens in the test etc.

Also is there any smallprint I've overlooked regarding the Type Rating requirements? I understand you need a valid IR to start TR. Is that clear cut? Any leeway? i.e. if my IR expires on Nov 15th and TR starts on, say, 17th do I definitiely have to renew? Wishful thinking I know.

[Mercenary Pilot]

if my IR expires on Nov 15th and TR starts on, say, 17th do I definitiely have to renew?Yes you do, besides its a good thing to be instrument current before a TR because you dont want to waste sim time going over basic IFR stuff.

[ChocksAwayUK]

Yes you do, besides its a good thing to be instrument current before a TR because you dont want to waste sim time going over basic IFR stuff.

Thanks MP, and yeah of course you're right about staying in good practice. Though I have recently done 36 hours in 737 sim, half of which was hand flown - wish i could have tied that in with the IR renewal somehow!

[D'vay]

Having problems downloading lasors and don't have a hard copy in my bookcase.
How many hours are required before commencing a Multi Rating and how many before an I/R. what Exams are needed for the IR, will these exams supercede the IR Comms in the ATPL?

Thanks

D'vay

[mcgoo]

70 hours PIC for the multi

[Hour Builder]

Having problems downloading lasors and don't have a hard copy in my bookcase.
How many hours are required before commencing a Multi Rating and how many before an I/R. what Exams are needed for the IR, will these exams supercede the IR Comms in the ATPL?
Thanks
D'vay

70 hrs PIC for MEP
50 hrs XC and night qualification before IR
7 IR (A) exams

a) Air Law/Operational Procedures
b) Aircraft General Knowledge
c) Flight Performance & Planning
d) Human Performance & Limitations
e) Meteorology
f) Navigation
g) Communications (IFR)

If you get IR exams done, and you want to go for ATPL theory later, I dont think there is any credit towards the 14 ATPL exams.

HB

[wangus]

About to take out a loan to complete my IR. Several friends of mine with Frozen ATPLs done in UK cannot get an interview due to low hours. What is point of spending extra £5000 in UK when several Spanish schools offer same syllabus? Spending extra money was of no benefit to them. I really do not know which approach to take.

[helicopter-redeye]

There was a debate about this on Rotors a few weeks ago, so you could check out the points raised there was well via "Search". JAR compliance was one issue.

Good luck getting a response. I asked four and not one bothered to reply.

h-r;)

[Mercenary Pilot]

Technically it’s JAA compliant. However, I recently trained with some Spanish guys who told me about their IR tests. I was very surprised to learn that it was far less rigorous than the UK standard. That said, its only the UK airlines who seem to be bothered about where you trained.

So basically what im saying is (IMO), if you want to fly for a British airline then do the IR here, if your not so bothered save your cash and go to España.

[ramon76]

I dont think they follow the same sylabus... At least, I renewed my CAA IR in Spain and I really took a laugh.... soooo easy in Spain, a joke. no air traffic control, no ILs, no engine failures... no......

[eagle21]

Is there a charge to be paid to the CAA after revalidating your ME+IR??
And if you do the proficciency check abroad, what would the CAA in terms of paperwork??
Thanks

[DownloadDog]

I'm doing my ME and IR course in a few months, are there any good books to read up on prior to commencing the course?

Cheers

[geraldn]

I'm doing my ME and IR course in a few months, are there any good books to read up on prior to commencing the course?

Cheers

just get yourself a copy of the RANT XL programme on your pc,its a gem.

[Aeropig78]

Hi!

I have been fortunate enough to be offered a job recently, but I am required to keep my multi IR current at least until commencement of training. I did my initial IR in 2004 and renewed last year on an FNPT2 sim. I was told at the time that if I subsequently renewed it the next year, it would have to be done on the actual aircraft at a cost of some £400 more than the FNPT2.

Is alternating the aircraft type (sim to aircraft) each year a renewal has to be done a CAA requirement or just a rumour?

Thanks

[Mercenary Pilot]

Do a search. The rules are not yet enforcable so you can renew on a sim at present.

[Aeropig78]

Ok, thanks for your help

[deza]

Just done mine yesterday cost me 360 quid for the aircraft, pa34 plus 180 for the examiner. and i have not flown for three years.

[ForeverFlight330]

Hey Folks, Hope someone can help.

I currently have a JAA SEP / MEP though as I have not flown in a while, both need revalidating. I obtained the licenses in 2003 / 04 respectively but since then have not been able to fly for various reasons.

I am now however looking to re validate both these licenses. I understand to keep current in a SEP its 12 hours over two years (although it has to be the second part of the two years) with 12 take off and landings and 1 hour with a flight instructor.
I assume it is the same for the MEP but rather than two years it is one.

My CAA Class 2 medical is still valid, as is my FAA Class 1 as I will be doing the re validations out in America.

After looking through Lasors and JAR-FCL 1.125 I am even more confused than the beginning and am not clear on what flight hour requirements I need to do, how many hours with an instructor and also whether I need a proficiency check or a skills test n both. :confused:


Any help would be greatly appreciated.

ForeverFlight330

[geraldn]

FF330,i could go on forever trying to explain it to you but i will probably end up confusing you even more,

check out this link http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SECTION%20F.pdf ,and read section F3,its much more simpler to 'decypher' than the JAR-FCL 1 document.:ugh:

Take care



Hey Folks, Hope someone can help.
I currently have a JAA SEP / MEP though as I have not flown in a while, both need revalidating. I obtained the licenses in 2003 / 04 respectively but since then have not been able to fly for various reasons.

I am now however looking to re validate both these licenses. I understand to keep current in a SEP its 12 hours over two years (although it has to be the second part of the two years) with 12 take off and landings and 1 hour with a flight instructor.
I assume it is the same for the MEP but rather than two years it is one.

My CAA Class 2 medical is still valid, as is my FAA Class 1 as I will be doing the re validations out in America.

After looking through Lasors and JAR-FCL 1.125 I am even more confused than the beginning and am not clear on what flight hour requirements I need to do, how many hours with an instructor and also whether I need a proficiency check or a skills test n both. :confused:


Any help would be greatly appreciated.

ForeverFlight330

[winch launch]

Hi,

I trained at a flight school in france and they tought us to use a course 45 degrees from the inbound course of the holding when doing a teardrop entry (It s a common method used in France as we always feel the need to do everything differently from the rest of the world unfortunatly). OACI uses 30 degrees as you all probably know.
How do you guys do it when applying the 30 degrees OACI rule, you open 30 degrees, and do you also wait 1 minute (without wind) before turning inbound or longer? What are the methods to correct from wind (outbound time correction) that you guys use for a slow aircraft (CAT A) that gets you perfectly on the inbound course after a rate 1 inbound turn?

Thanks for the help, and I hope I was clear!

Winch

[CarbHeatIn]

Hi winch launch, I suppose by using 45 degrees, you're reducing the changes of an over-shoot which usually occurs (for me anyway) with a teardrop entry using 30 degrees.

Personally, I use an estimate of 1 second per knot of head/tail wind which seems to work out ok. ( Generally fly the hold at 120 IAS as asymetric); so if there is a 20 kt head wind on the inbound axis of the hold, I'd fly outbound for 40 secs before commencing the procedure turn.

[FlyingForFun]

Agree with CarbHeatIn - 1 second per knot.

But, also worth adding that there is so much guess-work involved in holds, especially the hold entry, that the most important thing is to understand the inbound turn. Learn to read the ADF needle, understand dip, and interpret what's happening as you make the turn to establish on the inbound leg of the hold. If the needle is too close to the top of RMI/RBI, stop the turn. If it's too close to the bottom of the instrument, continue the turn past your planned heading.

If you can get this turn right, then it doesn't really matter what you do on the join or how (in)accurate the wind forecast is, you'll end up in the right place.

FFF
-------------

[yippipie]

Personally I use the following method:

Teardrop outbound track (30 degrees) = 2x drift, and 1min corrected for wind(1sec/knot)
Inbound (hold) track = 1x drift

Eg:
W/S say 270/10kts
Teardrop O/B track say 120 degrees
Inbound track say 270 degrees
TAS say 120

So,
Work out max drift (on the beam);
MD=WS(kts) / TAS(nm/min) =5

Then the actual drift (using angle between the wind and the air track)
D=5x sin30
D=2.5

Thus,
Teardrop outbound heading (2xD) is 125 degrees
Teardrop outbound timing is (sin60=0.86) 51secs

Worst part is the need to memorise the ballpark sine numbers.
Don't forget to factor in the actual wind experienced prior to holding, and voila--you won't be far out.

Hope this helps.

Pip.

[FlyingForFun]

Worst part is the need to memorise the ballpark sine numbers.

Easily done using the "clock code".

FFF
--------------

[hixton]

This all sounds a bit anal, I mean when is the actual wind anywhere near what the weather man says?
And even if you had a fancy aeroplane with an onboard readout, it could all thrown out the window if you are flying high and fast because you wouldnt be using a standard rate turn anyway.

[yippipie]

Easily done using the "clock code".

If you don't mind the loss of accuracy... in my e.g. (above) using the 'clock' method results in a 9 sec error, to the tear-drop O/B timing.

Mathmatically, the method is generally accepted to break down beyond about 25-30kts across the pattern.

Pip.

[WIKI44]

Hello everyone! I have an important training related question on the multi-engine command instrument rating from Australia. The minimum requirement is 20 hours of instrument flight time and 20 hours of intrument flight time on an approved flight simulator. Most schools quote the minimum required hours in their packages for training. However, depending on the skill and aptitude of the pilot, the number of hours required can vary. Can anyone tell me the number of hours an AVERAGE pilot would take to obtain a multi-engine command instrument rating in Australia. I gather, in Australia people take their flying seriously, and "fxing" of hours with the instructos to obtain the ratings does not work so well. In other places, especialy the U.S. and Phillippines these sort of things do happen. That is the primary reason why I want to train in Australia. I have a passion for flying and want to do things properly. In order to budget though, I need to know how many hours an average student pilot takes to get the MR-CIR and what is the best way to approach it; ie. do a lot of simulator time or do more actualy flying? Any comments would be graetly appreciated. Cheers.

[Ratshit]

Hello everyone! I have an important training related question on the multi-engine command instrument rating from Australia. The minimum requirement is 20 hours of instrument flight time and 20 hours of intrument flight time on an approved flight simulator. Most schools quote the minimum required hours in their packages for training. However, depending on the skill and aptitude of the pilot, the number of hours required can vary. Can anyone tell me the number of hours an AVERAGE pilot would take to obtain a multi-engine command instrument rating in Australia. I gather, in Australia people take their flying seriously, and "fxing" of hours with the instructos to obtain the ratings does not work so well. In other places, especialy the U.S. and Phillippines these sort of things do happen. That is the primary reason why I want to train in Australia. I have a passion for flying and want to do things properly. In order to budget though, I need to know how many hours an average student pilot takes to get the MR-CIR and what is the best way to approach it; ie. do a lot of simulator time or do more actualy flying? Any comments would be graetly appreciated. Cheers.

If you are reasonably skilled at handling the aeroplane, and have reasonable aptitude for I/F, completing the IR close to the minimum time would be a reasonable expectation.

Use a Stimulator to learn the basics then go get as much time as you can in the aeroplane. Try to fly with an intructor who will take you into some real cloud and real rain.

R:cool:

[CNTDSCT]

get yourself an handheld GPS,if too expensive,30degrees for one minute(corrected 1s/1kt wind),then check the ndb tail...when you see a nice 30 degrees make your turn and anticipate needle inbound course..pull the head and push the tail:E
but if you start to use sin and cos..the first thing youll do is fly into that mountain;-)
Remember..if you fly at cat C aircraft one day,max speed over the fix is 180kts,(entry max 90sec/no wind)to avoid getting out of the unprotected area..obs clearance drops by 50 percent when 3 miles out...after teardrop entry you may also have to parallel the outbound track until you reach a certain dme or fix until turning inbound.
Check JEPPS manual about procedure turns if unsure..its all in there;-)
and if you screw up the outbound, banking more than a standard rate to establish inbound is always better than overshooting it;-)

all the best;-)
ps:i believe the 45 deg rule is there to allow you an entry of the procedure turn without making a turn into the hold to be established for the outbound.
ex: inbound course 270deg, if you head south your 90 degrees from the outbound,not allowed to join outbound...if your head is 135 degr you are good to go for an outbound proc.
so easier to draw...but hope it helps..

regards

[ttoam]

Hey Guys,

All good suggestions! Personally, I found that playing on RANT 2000 (Radio Navigation Trainer) helped me. Basic software - gives tutorials and exercises in 2D. I found that with experience i could quite easily guess suitable headings/timings - very useful when you get unexpected hold/proceedure.

ttoam
:cool:

[dartagnan]

hello

a company is asking me to start my training next month.
is there a place close of gatwick or london where I could renew my Instrument .
I though the trto can renew my IR before to send me in the sim ...

thank you for your help.

[moggiee]

You can renew on a sim - but you'll need to be quick. The ANO is due for ammendment any day now and that will require lapsed ratings to be renewed on an aeroplane and current ratings to be revalidated alternately on the sim and aeroplane.

PM sent

[dartagnan]

CAA told me any JAA TRTO is good for them :ok:

[GusHoneybun]

1) before you apply for your first multi pilot type, you need a valid and current multi engined instrument rating.
2) never heard of anyone using a TRTO to renew your single pilot instrument rating. you need to use either a dedicated sim or a single pilot multi engine aircraft which are part of an FTO.
3) plus, a TRE can only sign instrument ratings for the types which they are valid for. most cannot sign off multi engine single pilot instrument ratings.
4) before you begin any type rating, the TRTO will check your licence and medical. if you are found to be lacking, they will not start you on your course.

so, and i'm assuming from posting in this forum that you are going for your first MPA type. in which case, bite the bullet and get renewed before you start your type. there are a few places around gatwick, try blackbushe airport for starters

[dartagnan]

GUhoneybun,


I will let the TRTO to extend my IR as they say.They are JAR and that's their business to train us.
I am not the first one to have this kind of problem, and I think since the time, they have learned to deal with :
they have probably a single pilot simulator somewhere (or in a school near the TRTO)and they will put me in between groundschool.
as you suggest me,I will check in my non UK JAA country for a single pilot simulator, in case things go wrong.

what form do I need to bring?

[command]

Hey PhillTowns,
here's a bit of info on the independant ILS APP you were talking about.

At aerodromes such as Sydney where you have simultaneous Parallel RWY ops in IMC ( ILS approaches), there is another ILS plate in the jepps titled ILS PRM. The PRM stands for Precision Runway Monitoring. There are seperate air traffic controllers on seperate frequencies (prm frequencies) monitoring highly sensitive radar screens for each approach path to the runways.the aircraft must monitor both the tower frequency and the PRM frequency during the approach. In between the runways there is a 610 meter wide area extending approx 20 miles out called the Non Transgression Zone. If, during simultaneous ILS approaches, either aircraft penetrates this zone then the previously mentioned ATC controller (i think its both controllers) will Transmit to each others aircraft "BREAKOUT" and give them vectors away from each other.

this doesn't happen very often as most ILS approaches into syd are coupled to A/P and even if they were not the pilots flying the aircraft would have to be pretty bad to wander so far from the Localiser. I may be wrong but I dont think syd has had a breakout procedure in about 8 years.

the pilots flying the approaches must be certified for ILS PRM, and if they are not then they must advise ATC 120nm from the AD and the approaches will then be staggered.

you might already know all this but i thought i would let you know anyway.
read jepp sydney 11-0 it is explained there.

safe flying:) :)

[scroggs]

Interesting that you should answer a question that is more than a year old! However, your answer is incomplete. Simultaneous Parallel Approaches are unrestricted providing that the runway and approach centrelines are separated by 4300ft (1300m) or greater. Certain surveillance radar equipment is required in most countries also. PRM approaches are a procedure for Simultaneous Close Parallel Approaches, which must be monitored by precision radar and require the dual-frequency monitoring you refer to. Without PRM, on runways with centrelines closer than 4300ft, approaches must be staggered along the approach path, whcih restricts the landing rate achievable.

The monitoring is carried out by a third controller (on a two-runway airport), who is the sole voice on the second frequency.

PRM allows the separation between approach courses to be reduced to 3400' - less if one of the approach courses is offset (Simultaneous Offset Instrument Approaches (SOIA)).

The design of these approaches ensures that separation is sufficient at all times to remain outside TCAS TA/RA constraints.

Scroggs

[BillieBob]

....and they will put me in between groundschool.A valid (current) MEIR is a pre-requisite for training for a first MPA type rating, not for rating issue. A TRTO should not commence any training, including the groundschool, until you have a current IR.

[command]

Hey Scroggs,
thanks for that, didnt know that PRM was just for RWY's closer than 1300m.
Sydney actually uses 2 extra controllers though. One for each RWY. E.G. RWY's 16L and 16R at syd, if you look at the JEPP plates the PRM frequencies are different for each RWY.

Cheers mate :)

[command]

Hey mate,
my CIR course was a set course which included 30hrs in the beech duchess (including aircraft endo) and 30 hrs in the sim. This was more than enough time in each as the instruction was also of a high standard. This posed no problem for my CIR flight test.
As long as you are fine with your intercepts and approach procedures you shouldn't need this much time in the sim, and just do enough time in the aircraft so you are confident with it.

good luck:)

[jerezflyer]

Could someone clarify the hour requirements for commencement of the IR/ME?

My understanding is that you must have 50 hours cross country (with PPL+ATPL ground passed) - Do the cross country hours done as part of the PPL count? Must they be all PIC or PICUS (i.e. solo during PPL??) Or can some dual cross country be thrown in? Must they all be after the PPL?

Thanks for any clarification.

Jerezflyer

[Megaton]

From Lasors (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS_07.pdf):
Experience Requirements
When applying for an IR(A) you must produce evidence
of having met the following flying requirements:-
50 hours cross-country flight time as PIC in
aeroplanes or helicopters, of which at least 10 hours
shall be in aeroplanes.
Dual won't count since it isn't PIC (or PICUS)! Whether before or after PPL is (to be pedantic) irrelevant but they must be PIC(US); however, you are unlikely to accumulate very much x-country PIC before PPL issue. Only real answer is to flog round the countryside after PPL issue.

[John001]

Hello,

firstly apologies if this has been covered elsewhere,

Regarding the CAA form “SRG1161 - Instrument rating(A) application”:

Section D asks the applicant to enter the number of hours they have completed as “instrument ground time” and also, on another line, the number of hours in “FNPT I or II”.

Having referenced the ‘Lasors’ guide for pilots, instrument ground time is defined as “time which a pilot is receiving instruction in simulated instrument flight in synthetic training devices (STDs)”.

I have completed 26 hrs FNTP II which is itself a STD (unless I am mistaken?)... So FNPT II IS (also?) 'Instrument ground time' ??:bored:

Hence my confusion-
Should I leave the “Instrument ground time” field blank or should I include my 26 hours there AS WELL AS entering it in the field pertaining to "FNPTII hours"???

regards,

John.:)

[John001]

Oops, that should have read "FNPT" ;)

[genius747]

Hi,
I'm just trudging through books, jeppys POH's etc etc doing some study for the Multi IR... I've come across a few questions which I would like some other pilots opinions on, I guess typical 'ground' questions for the flight test.
And yes... I will be asking my instructer about them aswell!! But anyhow here goes...
1.What are the JAR limits for t/o and landing for single pilot
2.what is the time consideration for the t/o alternate
3.can I take off with 500m vis and 100ft celing
4.what level can you fly in controlled and uncontrolled airspace
5.over head point 'x' on an airway who notice icing on your wing. ATC will not allow a descent for 10mins, what do you do
6.Explain different approach bans with ref to jar
7.How do you know your on the correct ILS with no marker beacon
8.What would you do on the ground with no weather available for your destination
9.What do you know about fm immunity
Well thats the few that I'd like an opinion or two on.
Cheers gang
G74:confused:

[Blinkz]

hmm I should know since I have my IRT in two weeks lol so will have a go! Someone who knows better then me will have to correct me tho!

1. Not sure about t/o, just the aerodrome minimum i think, landing RVR is 800m

2. time for alternate i think is 30mins single engine cruise

3. not sure, it depends on the AOM and if you have an alternate in limits

4. well it depends, above the TA in CAS you should fly semicircle, outside quadrantal, unless ATC have ordered you otherwise.

5. well use whatever systems you have to counter icing (boots etc) if it really is a problem then again tell ATC, pan or mayday if need, since you need to descend if its that bad.

6. erm not sure about different approach bans. i thought that if the RVR was below the minimum for whatever approach u are trying to shoot then you can only follow to the OM or 1000ft AGL if no OM.

7. correct ILS? I assume you mean correct glideslope? well it depends. If you have DME then you can use that for what height you should be, and if there isn't DME then there will be markers (as far as I'm aware) If not then I guess you would have to do a localiser only approach?

8. Well you could phone your destination and ask? But as long as you have an alternate and you have weather forcast that says it should be ok when you expect to be there then you can go.

9. not actually sure what this is about. its to do with the radios not having interfernce from other FM sources (talk about speaking the obvious! lol) for flying in IMC I think you need to have your radios and nav boxes fm immune.

Hope some of this makes sense! Like I said I've got IR soon so I need to know this stuff too! If someone can correct me where I'm wrong or not sure then that would be really useful!!!! :ok:

[Blinkz]

hmm not sure why our thread was merged with this one, it really doesn't have the same type of questions as the main thread, which is IR validities and stuff.

Anyway, does anyone else have any input on the questions genius747 posted? would be nice to know if I'm even vaguely correct!!

[Dr Eckener]

genius 747:

1. refer to the ops manual. for MEP usually 500m RVR as long as you can construct a +tive t/o path to 1500' (ie can you climb and not hit anything, very real consideration in a lot of MEP's and in certain weather conditions). If not then 1500m RVR. cloud base is not a consideration. single pilot IFR landing minima is 800m RVR absolute minimum.

2. again, refer to ops manual. mine states 60mins single engine cruise. not sure i fancy that much though.

3. yes, subject to 1 & 2 above.

4. outside, any available FL, using quadrantal in the UK, semicircular elsewhere. inside, any available FL, using semicircular, or as directed by ATC.

5. use equipment if available, or request descent due icing if not. they will let you if they know the reason. same for track variations due weather.

6. approach ban is when RVR is below mimima for the approach (not your personal mimima, ATC will not know this). you cannot legally descend below 1000' agl. their is a pink AIC on the subject.

7. you always intercept from below the glideslope to ensure this. there is always a gp check on the plate as well at a given dme distance or at a marker.

8. use the phone. ensure alternate is available (wx required must be above minima at alternate if not at destination. again, refer to ops manual). check wx at a nearby airfield.

9. it is just a filter in the equipment. it will (or should be) placarded if not fm immune. you need to have it for any approaches in contolled airspace.

hope this helps.

9.

[Curtis E Carr]

Try Wycombe Air Centre

[vigilant_spacey]

Hi,

In the red tape of becoming a professional pilot I am confused! I aim to finish with a frozen ATPL(A). In order to do this, part of the journey involves getting a CPL with MEP and IR.

Now, my confusion lies with the MEP. I can choose to do a single or multi CPL and a single or multi IR. But if I get a single IR, I believe it is only valid on single engined aircraft.

If I was to get a multi engine CPL, then a single IR, can I fly a multi engine aircraft IFR???
Or, if I get a single engine CPL, then a multi IR can I fly a multi engined aircraft for reward?

A trivial point I know, I was under the impression that it didnt matter where I got the multi rating along the way, as long as I got it, but have read different and am pulling hair out as we speak.

Any feedback is warmely welcomed and much appreciated.

Cheers


Vigi

[BlueRobin]

>if I get a single engine CPL, then a multi IR can I fly a multi engined aircraft for reward?

This implies and would mean you will have done and applied for a MEP rating. So yes.

You don't have to do a MEP CPL, however there is a small saving to be had by combining the licence and rating.

[Mintflavour]

Small reward for combining the ME and CPL is a cost saving, however this only holds true if you pass first time, if you dont, as well as your retake fee you have to do it again in a Twin which is doubling cost of your aircraft hire compared to a single, so your saving goes straight out of the window. :uhoh:

Mint

[Mintflavour]

Further...... If you are going for the ATPL frozen you have to do the ME/IR. You can do either a SE/CPL then do a ME before the IR, or take the gamble and combine the ME with CPL nd get both done in one test.
Things to remember for test differences between SE and ME CPL.
ME: You go a lot faster during your nav leg, You have to complete Assymetric flight which includes approaches and go arounds at the end of you test but you dont have to do a PLF.

SE: must do a PFL,

Hope this clears a few things up

mint

[geraldn]

Also ,if you plan of doing your IR on a Multi,it would be wiser to do your CPL on a Multi since you would feel more comfortable in your IR having already done some hours in a Multi.

[GusHoneybun]

Also ,if you plan of doing your IR on a Multi,it would be wiser to do your CPL on a Multi since you would feel more comfortable in your IR having already done some hours in a Multi.


not sure of your logic here. you either do a multi engine CPL then your IR, or you do a single engine CPL, MEP rating then your IR. either way, you will have the same amount of multi time (around 7 hours) before commencing your IR.

[geraldn]

not sure of your logic here. you either do a multi engine CPL then your IR, or you do a single engine CPL, MEP rating then your IR. either way, you will have the same amount of multi time (around 7 hours) before commencing your IR.

What i meant to say although i must admit not clearly stated is that,if one gets the MEP out of the way toghether with the CPL, apart of hitting two birds with one stone, one would also be able to concentrate on the Instrument training rather than getting used to flying a multi.

IMHO I dont see why one should do the CPL on a single other than for financial reasons.

[wbryce]

I lean towards what Gerald is saying, i'm planning the same route ME CPL then IR. Alot of the students at PAT do the course this way....and it significantly helps while doing the IR. How ever a select few do the MEP > IR > CPL which is a slight saving but overall time after CPL/IR is around 46-47hrs ME time.

[JeroenC]

Hello all,

Did the search, read LASORS (ok, not ALL the pages...)

I am from Holland, have a UK-issued JAA PPL. Did my ATPL theory in Holland, as appoved by both the CAA and the Dutch CAA (IVW). I am starting my IR in Holland next week, adding it to my PPL.

After the IR, I intend to go to the USA for CPL and ME training.
Now I've heard two things, of which I'm not sure if they are true:
1) Having done the IR in European airspace (which is said to be a requirement, but I can't find it written anywhere) you can do ME-IR in the USA.

2) Having met the requirements for CPL, ME and ME-IR you can do one test for all ratings/licences.

Can anybody please confirm/deny this, preferably with reference to docs/paragraphs?

Thanks in advance.

[FlyingForFun]

I'm not quite sure why you intend to get an SE-IR in the first place? I don't think it will help you.
After the IR, I intend to go to the USA for CPL and ME training.
You should do the ME before the IR. Having completed the ME training is a requirement for starting the ME-IR. If you have not done the ME training, you will only be able to do a SE-IR, which will not be any use in getting an airline job. You would then need to upgrade your SE-IR to a ME-IR, which will require a further 5 hours of training minimum (although I would expect it would take a little more than 5 hours to master asymmetric approaches if you have only recently passed a SE-IR and have little instrument-flying experience).
Having done the IR in European airspace (which is said to be a requirement, but I can't find it written anywhere)
There is no requirement to do the IR in European airspace. However, there is a requirement (in the UK, not sure exactly what JAR says on the subject) to do your initial IR skills test with a CAA Staff Examiner. And there are no CAA Staff Examiners outside of Europe. Because of this, you will need to do the test in Europe - and you will probably want to do at least some of the training in the same airspace as you are going to be doing your test in.
you can do ME-IR in the USA
If you are talking about the upgrade from the SE-IR to the ME-IR, then no. LASORS says that, to upgrade to a ME-IR, you must pass a test with a CAA Staff Examiner, so the same applies here as does for your initial IR: there are no CAA Staff Examiners in the USA.
Having met the requirements for CPL, ME and ME-IR you can do one test for all ratings/licences
Not true. You can do the test for the CPL and ME in one go if you have done a 28-hour ME-CPL course. But the IR test is seperate.

FFF
----------------

[Keygrip]

The UK CAA view the ME IR (as you want to call it) as an INITIAL and must be done with them - even if you have already done an SE IR.

The DUTCH, on the other hand, view the ME IR as an "upgrade" to their existing SE IR and allow it to be done "in the field" - which includes the USA.

[GNF072]

Hi all,
I'm a IR student...
Someone have the details of the chapters to study?
( I'm studying on Jeppesen ATPL books)

Thanks a lot

Bye

[config-2]

So the initial IR if I want it put onto my UK license HAS to be done in the UK?
I was planning to do the IR somewhere cheaper, but within Europe of course.

[Bertie Bassett]

So the initial IR if I want it put onto my UK license HAS to be done in the UK?

No, it doesn't. It is a rating and so can be done at any JAA approved FTO in any JAA state. You will need to present to the UK CAA the following documentation for them to add it to your UK JAA licence:

a. JAA IR skill test certificate
b. JAA FTO approval certificate
c. JAA Examiner certificate
d. JAA IR course completion Certificate

[Brian304]

Hey everyone

Just wanted to ask if I have a PPL, but then gain a CPL, would I still have tp revalidate the PPL? or just revalidate the CPL when necessary?. Also does the PPL have to renewed every 2 years with an examiner even if you fly like say 50 hours a year?.

BRIAN304:)

[config-2]

Hi Bertie,
Thanks alot. I thought that was the case but reading the last post by keygrip I thought i'd missed something and that it HAD to be done here after all. Thanks again-panic over!! :ok:

[BlueRobin]

Atlantic Flight Training write those books. You could be cheeky and mail them, asking which chapters and books they use for their IR theory course. www.flyaft.com.

[Walk the line]

Sorry I dont understand, Are you studying for ATPL exams to do the IR? If so...then study the book!

[sam34]

No i think he means, he is a student IR (pratical) but he is revising the ATPL theory...
anyway, atpl theory is a joke... you do not really need the theory for CPL/IR.
just do the questions "aviation exams" for any selection...
seriously do you really remember ALL about the theory after the course ?? not me... :rolleyes:

[Walk the line]

Yeah, Alot of the ATPL theory is "in one ear, out the other"! But I suppose if I was to do theory revision for the practical IR Course, I would brush back over:

IFR Comms
Flight P + M
Nav Gen

.....For about three minutes, then Id skip to the fun part :O

[yippipie]

Is it permissable to use the Low Level En-route Chart MSAs, rather than laboriously plot and scour the topo' for 1000' above the highest point within 5nm of track for each leg?

I realise this would often mean flying higher than you'd strictly need to, but is it technically ok to plan on this basis?

Cheers,

Pip.

[FlyingForFun]

Best thing to do is check with your school on this one.

What you are suggesting is absolutely fine as a technique. But, for both CPL and IR, the CAA want to see a commercial-style operation. That means that you have to comply with your school's "SOPs" - just as, if you were flying for an AOC-holder you would have to comply with their SOPs. So, if this isn't the way it's done at your school, the answer might well be No.

FFF
---------------

[FL8]

I agree best check with your school but I reckon they'd be hard pressed to fail you for it - after all if you're tooling along at warp speed in some jet tube you're going to cover some ground and running the thumb along might be a tad impractical even in pre-flight.

But (and this is the only point in this otherwise pointless post) I have heard some examiners are very anti the use of MEFs on the topo charts so I guess may take the same view of MSAs.

[yippipie]

FFF & FL8,

Thanks for that, I'm inclined to agree, but just wanted to check.

BTW, what are "MEFs", and which examiner doesn't like them I wonder?

Cheers,

Pip.

[yippipie]

Hi,

Does anyone have the Seneca II 200T, profiles?

I need settings & config's (twin & single engine) for: circuits, beacon, ILS & general handling.

I'm preparing for an IR renewal on this new type, but I'm having difficulty accessing this information until nearer the test date.

I'd be very grateful if somebody could provide an URL or send me an attachment/details to yippipie at-sign yahoo dot co dot uk.

Cheers,

Pip.

[Blinkz]

I don't have any profiles that I can link to but I have just passed my IR on the Seneca II so can answer any questions you have on it, feel free to PM me.

[geraldn]

yippipie, check your emails

[yippipie]

I've had a good response, thanks to all who helped (I've replied to all).

Cheers,

Pip.

[ramshorn]

Hello
I have a renewal in May. Could someone fill me in on the renewal test profile etc please.

Cheers;)

[Mintflavour]

Hi
Not sure what the profile is at the moment. But I heard a rumour that as from end of Feb you will have to do a ILS, NDB hold and approach then an Asymetric approach, this is even if you do the revalidation in a sim just renew the IR and letting the ME lapse. If you revalidate after your IR expires then you must do it in the aircraft, I have heard mixed rumours about this, as this is written somewhere however the CAA may not have implimented it. To be honest I have know idea what the current requirements are and I hope to shed some light on it when I do revalidation in the coming weeks :ooh: . Hope someone out there can give us an accurate update on the requirements and rumoured changes.
cheers
mint

[Schimmel]

My question for anyone who might know is:

Does the revalidation in the sim (B737 / FNPTII) still allow you to revalidate your IR-SPA-SE Rating even if the Sim has more than one engine?

I hold an UK JAA CPL (IR-SPA-SE), MCC with ATPL Theorie Credit. I would be obliged if you could give me a prompt reply.

[Hour Builder]

Can a Multi Pilot Multi engine SIM be used to renew a Single Pilot Single Engine Instrument rating?

Answer is in my question above.

Is a B737 sim also an FNPT II, I am not so sure it is. Plus you say "still allowed" I am not sure it has ever been allowed.

HB

[TurboJ]

My understanding is that single pilot and multi pilot IRs are separate ratings.

However, revalidating a single pilot multi engine IR also gives privileges on a single engine.

I expect it depends in what capacity you are operating the FNPT2 sim. Why not ask the guys/gals running the sim?

TJ

[Schimmel]

Thks. HB and TJ. In order to formulate my question better:

I don´t have neither a ME-SPA IR nor a ME Classrating, only a SE-IFR-Rating.

They wrote in Lasors 2007 (Section E1.5 Revalidation of an IR (A)):
....
An FNPT II or Flight Simulator may be used but at least each alternate proficiency check for the revalidation of an IR(A) in these circumstances shall be performed in an aeroplane.

I want only to revalidate my SE-IFR-Rating, not the SE Classrating, I know that in this case one must fly in an real airplane.

Since I prepare already for a Screening (B737/FNPTII), I would like to use the opportunity to revalidate my IFR SE Rating at the same time.

Does it have to be a FNPTII 1 mot or can it also be a FNPT II 2 mot and/or FNPTII (jet)? I can´t see from Lasors what kind of FNPT II or Flight Simulator they mean.

Possibly we could switch an engine off, then we would have only one - which concerns the FNPT II (Boeing 737) :confused: .

[Hour Builder]

I was being a tiny bit sarcastic. You cannot renew a single pilot IR in a multi pilot sim.

You mention you have a screening for a B737, I may also like to point out that before STARTING an initial Multi pilot type rating such as the B737, you are required to have a current and valid multi engine IR not single engine.

HB

[TurboJ]

:D I want only to revalidate my SE-IFR-Rating, not the SE Classrating, I know that in this case one must fly in an real airplane.


I don't understand this. If you don't renew your single engine class rating, renewing your SE-SPA-IR then becomes useless, as you can't fly the plane anyway. However, I think that the flight test to renew your IR may well count as renewing your SE class rating anyway.

I can't think of any single engine FNPTII sims; you may have to renew a SE-SPA-IR on the real aircraft.

and hourbuilder beat me to writing the rest..........:D

[Pace152]

Hi everybody,

Just thought I'd ask the opinion of anybody who knows:

I have an FAA IR but I've not done an instrument approach for 14 months which unfortunatly means I've got to now do some with an instructor as a check out, does anybody know if this has to be an FAA instructor or would a JAA (ICAO) instructor be able to do it for me since I live in the UK.

Thanks for any help :O

[Schimmel]

Thks. Hourbilder and TurboJ for this information. I have still another question since it is my first revalidation.
If someone revalidate his respective IFR Rating (ME or SE) in a Sim (FNPTII), does the respective Classrating (SE or ME) will be also revalidated or one must fly the VFR part in a real airplane?
My Medical Class 1 ran off for approx. one week. I will revalidate that in the next year, since I do not fly at present commercially. Although on my UK Medical stands only the expiration date of my Medcial Class I , I assume that my Class II is still valid for another year. Is that correct?
Can I revalidate my Class I without any difficulties by an AME, even if this ran off, or do I get any problems? Sorry for my expression errors and for my beginner questions.

[Northern Highflyer]

Renewing your IR in the sim does not give validate the SE / ME rating. A trip in the aircraft is required for this. You can, however do both at the same time by renewing your IR in the aircraft to get a combined ME/IR renewal.

[Lee-a-Roady Moor]

"The proposed amendment to the ANO is imminently to go to the Department for Transport for transposition into the law...... Until then Amendment 3 is the reference which permits (or can be interpreted to permit) the use of FNPTs for IR revalidation and renewal."


The above is a partial quote from a previous post relating to an IR renewal in a sim. It referred to LASORS 2006 - can anybody tell me if the ANO has actually been amended? Or is the situation the same as last year; ie: Can a renewal can still be done in a sim even if the previous renewal was also in a sim.

I know that LASORS 2007 states otherwise, but it is proving difficult to find any definitive written statement confirming that the law has / has not changed.

Thanks

LRM

[balboa]

Anyone care to comment on the suitability of the Duchess for ME training?

[scroggs]

It's an aeroplane. It has more than one engine. What else do you want?!

Scroggs

[Tinstaafl]

Really, really dark sunglasses and an air of nonchanlance? :p

[Rob's Dad]

Balboa

Think you must met Scroggs at the end of a long day. The Duchess is a stable, easy aircraft to fly and operate - that's why it's so popular with training schools. Faster than single-engine aircraft that you may have flown before (assuming C172/PA28 and not Mooney etc!) but only slightly so and not a huge leap up from what you've known.

RD

[ramshorn]

Hello
I'm doing my first ME/IR renewal over next weekend. How much retraining and practice can i expect to need before being up to speed for the test?? Also can more people shed some light on what to expect to have to do in the test??
P.s This is all being done in sim as my IR has not lapsed yet.
Cheers:ok: