Question - circuit join

[GroundBound]

You are approaching an airfield (grass - no markings), with two runways forming a cross, 10/28 and 01/19. The active runway is 10.

Gliders are also using the same runway, but powered a/c land and take off to the left of the gliders.

The powered a/c have a left hand circuit, and the gliders a right hand circuit.

You are approaching on a track of 220 – how would you join the circuit?

I think its obvious, but it seems there is some debate - curious to have other views.

GB

[Chilli Monster]

Position outside the circuit to join Downwind Left Hand - there is no other option.

Forget the overhead join - unless you want 3000ft of cable wrapped around you.

Airmanship rules out a crosswind join. Turning across the nose of a glider positioning downwind (a common position as a lot of the flying is teaching circuits) isn't going to make you any friends.

[robin]

No real debate really - stay clear of the gliders and join downwind left for 10

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Yep; same here. Personally, I'd always avoid a straight in approach, whatever your inbound track. Gives no time to see what else is in the circuit and little chance for anyone to see you. Extending downwind is very irritating when straight in traffic suddenly appears off your nose.

[Fournicator]

Just an addition to the previous poster's remarks - I'd probably set up on an extended downwind leg, for the maximum time to pick up the position of other circuit traffic without having to think about my own orientation. Fairly obviously give way to anyone crosswind (yuck, square ccts, ugh! Really would be easier if everyone flew sensible ovals!) before joining the normal downwind position.

[Flybywyre]

Position outside the circuit to join Downwind Left Hand - there is no other option
Yes there is, you are already on an extended base leg (almost) so what's wrong with joining base leg ? (assuming it is not unduly busy)
It all depends on how busy the circuit is, there is no definitive answer. If the circuit is empty, or someone has just reported finals to land and know one else is flying then it would be common sense to join base leg resulting in a safe and expeditious join.

[Lister Noble]

This is interesting.
I am a very low hours PPL,I prefer downwind joins to everything else,even overhead joins.
Having said that nearly all my landings are at my home field.
I don't like straight in's as you don't really get a feel for the airfield or traffic.
Maybe I will change my opinion with more experience?
Lister:)

[Fournicator]

Flybywyre:
Good point. Does all depend on the type of traffic using the airfield - any likelyhood of non radio ac, how amny in the cct, etc etc.

[Chilli Monster]

Yes there is, you are already on an extended base leg (almost) so what's wrong with joining base leg ? (assuming it is not unduly busy)

Very little time to assimilate airfield activity compatred to the downwind join. You don't know how busy it is because the gliders, and tugs if they are there, will be operating non-radio.

Downwind is the safer option when arriving at "mixed mode" sites.

[Flybywyre]

Very little time to assimilate airfield activity compatred to the downwind join
You have exactly the same amount of time. This is assuming that you call up in advance of arriving at the airfield (normal practice)

[rustle]

You have exactly the same amount of time. This is assuming that you call up in advance of arriving at the airfield (normal practice)
Not sure how that works.:confused:

What response are you expecting from A/G when you call "joining base" other than "roger"?

Joining downwind gives you (more) time to see for yourself what is happening.

[Flybywyre]

The point I am making is that you have exactly the same amount of time to listen out and work out where the other traffic is. As I said previously there is no definitive answer, it all depends on what else, if anything, is going on in the circuit.

[Footless Halls]

Yes, FbW. You have the same time to LISTEN but much less time to LOOK. And gliders will not be using radio in the circuit.

In addition, I don't think it's wise to rely on radio for your information about powered traffic either. I had a memorable experience joining a certain airfield a few weeks ago when the FISO informed me 'there's lots of stuff coming from all directions' and then got my number in the circuit wrong...

I don't blame the guy because I'm the Captain of my a/c, not him. Just to say the downwind join is rather safer in my view.

[Flybywyre]

You have the same time to LISTEN but much less time to LOOKI don't know how you arrive at that :confused:
And gliders will not be using radio in the circuit.
Gliders aren't in the circuit :ugh:
'there's lots of stuff coming from all directions' and then got my number in the circuit wrong... so what ??
Just to say the downwind join is rather safer in my view.Safer than what ?
I'll say it again there is no definitive answer. It all depends on how busy the circuit is. In the example given at the start of this thread, if the circuit is empty then it is perfectly reasonable and sensible to join base leg. A novice PPL reading this could get the impression that the only safe way to join a circuit is downwind. This is clearly not true, there are many ways to join the circuit and with experience you become aware of which way is best for any given circumstances. Having said that we all make mistakes, including myself, which we normally learn from. We also gain experience from unexpected scenarios, such as "positioning out of the circuit to join downwind" and meeting someone head on doing a bomber style circuit as you could do in the opening example given at the start of the thread.
Common sense and good airmanship should prevail.

[Chilli Monster]

The point I am making is that you have exactly the same amount of time to listen out and work out where the other traffic is.

How do you listen out for non-radio traffic?

[Flybywyre]

You can't................

[Chilli Monster]

Ahhhhh - so your previous suggestion
The point I am making is that you have exactly the same amount of time to listen out and work out where the other traffic is.

Is next to useless ;) Whereas

You have the same time to LISTEN but much less time to LOOK.

Looking, and the time to look, would be a much more valuable commodity.

I have no problems with base leg joins at airfields with normal, single type (powered) operations. However, the use of a downwind leg at a gliding site to see and assess what is going on in the landing area beforehand (which is something you wouldn't get by joining base) is a much better idea from an airmanship point of view.

[Flybywyre]

Just for you Chilli Monster ............
I'll say it again there is no definitive answer
What part of that do you not understand ?
Private message me if you want to spare yourself any further embarrassment and I will explain it to you :ugh:

[Chilli Monster]

Sorry - but you're actually wrong. There IS a definitive answer.

As you've obviously never operated out of a gliding field, where the landing area is shared, then feel free to PM me to save yourself further embarrassment ;) (Adopting the same circuit procedure as the gliders comes into it though - it helps if you can see them proceeding round the circuit)

You may have to wait for your answer though - the nightshift calls with lots of aircraft to play with :)

[Flybywyre]

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:
"Sorry - but you're actually wrong. There IS a definitive answer".......
"As you've obviously never operated out of a gliding field"
Arrogant and ill-informed statements like the ones above don't help.
You just don't get it do you ..............

[Fournicator]

Chili:
I don't know the airfield in question, but I disagree - we do NOT have enough information here to answer definately.
The information we have been provided with seems to indicate that gliding and powered operations are totally seperate, with the powered aircraft operating in this case on the north side of the airfield while the gliders take the south. If this is the case (and I'm not saying it is - I don't know), then a base leg join, to fit in with the segregated power traffic, could well be perfectly acceptable.

[Chilli Monster]

Fournicator
Gliders are also using the same runway, but powered a/c land and take off to the left of the gliders.

That gives me the biggest clue as to what the definite answer is.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Agree! I’ve flown from an aerodrome in the Fens with non radio glider traffic. Gliders don’t always and can’t always do what you expect them to do. As a former Cadet MK 3 rider, I can vouch for this.

[GroundBound]

Glad to see there is some debate, then. :ok:
Just to clarify some points raised earlier
1) gliders right hand circuit, powered a/c left hand circuit
2) grass airfield, unmarked runways, powered a/c land left of gliders.
3) R/T is "Radio" (sorry - I didn't mention this)
4) First visit (this might be relevant).
Now, I agree with CM that you don't want to get near the gliders. However, if the field is grass, with no clear runway markers, its a bit difficult to see where the runway is (especially if a first visit) - also to orientate yourself to a non-visible runway.
So what would be wrong with an abbreviated overhead join? By this, I mean fly almost overhead at circuit height +1000ft, but remain North of the active runway, away from the glider side. Once near the overhead, the runway becomes visible, as does the glider ground positions and the left/right separation of the circuit traffic. Now, a left turn, still remaining North of the runway, on the "powered" side, towards the runway heading would allow one to orientate oneself to the circuit direction and have a good look at the traffic distribution. A descending left turn onto downwind would insert one nicely into the circuit.
What would be wrong with this approach?
GB

[Chilli Monster]

Nothing wrong with this idea, but be aware of the following:

1) Cables drift with wind - there is the possibility that the launch cable could drift across to the powered side, especially if a student / early solo is struggling with the take-offs (you don't say whether the site is winch launch, aerotow or both so I'm thinking worst case scenario here).

2) There may be a local soaring instruction that you don't know about, allowing the gliders to thermal once they're on the powered side, so long as they're above powered circuit height (Have flown somewhere were this was the case). In this case you're going to meet people intent on getting height fairly soon after launch so that they can disappear on cross country tasks / further climb. This won't have a happy outcome :uhoh:

So - how about a slight modification to your idea. Approach the airfield as you've stated, remaining on the powered side. You know the runway direction, so you can work out roughly how that will lie on the field. Identify the airfield from a distance - turn left and descend to circuit height rolling out on a track similar to the runway heading. You won't have identified the runway at this point, but that's not a problem. You will have avoided any gliders operating in scenario (2) above and any cables from scenario (1).

On reaching circuit height - Right turn of 180 degrees to bring you onto a downwind heading at the start of or preferably before the downwind leg. Fly downwind - identify runway, inspect surface and situation, continue with circuit as normal.

[robin]

a) you really don't want to be overhead as gliders may well be thermalling there and there may be winching
b) don't go near the glider circuit - it could ruin your entire day
c) joining from left base gives you no idea as to what is going on and is almost as bad as joining on a straight in approach
d) if you join downwind you are likely to be parallelling any glider in their circuit so you can get a good view of circuit traffic from glider and power side
e) if you are about to turn base at the same time as a glider, extend downwind or prepare for a go around and let him get on with his landing.

There was a nasty collision at Aston Down not so long ago with tug and glider turning into each other.

The Rules of the Air are quite clear - power gives way to gliders!

[ProfChrisReed]

Just to add, don't assume that the gliders will always be able to adhere to the left-hand circuit rule. Gliders can get caught out by heavy sink, or be on marginal final glide which doesn't allow them to join the approved circuit.

This time of year that gives the glider a choice between landing in a field full of crop, with probable damage to the aircraft and possible injury to the pilot, or flying a right-hand circuit (or no circuit at all).

You therefore have to assume that gliders may be forced to use any circuit or part thereof, and so need to look out both inside and outside the circuit at all points.

Alarming though this might sound, I know of no collisions between powered a/c and gliders (or between gliders) in the landing phase - there have been collisions near gliding sites, primarily between tugs and gliders, but these seem to occur above circuit height. Having said that, I've seen a number of last minute sightings and consequent manoeuvres, but none which got close enough (in glider pilot terms) to appear dangerous.

The reason for this is, I think, that because there are no definitive rules about where everyone is flying, we all keep a far sharper lookout than in other phases of flight.