Career plan: RAAF to NASA

[Douglas Watts]

Hello everybody,

My name is Douglas Watts and I am 18 years old living in Darwin, Australia. I dont know if this is the appropriate forum to post this thread, but I am new to this forum so please bear with me.

I want to become a Pilot Astronaut at NASA. My question is: how should I go about accomplishing my goal.

I have been reading the astronaut biographies on the NASA website, and all of the Pilot Astronaut's have many years of experience as fighter pilots in the US NAVY, and they all have degree's in aeronautical/aerospace engineering.

This has lead me to assuming that I can become an astronaut by serving in the RAAF as a fighter pilot, gaining a degree in engineering at ADFA and working on another engineering degree during my service in the RAAF. Is it possible that NASA would consider a RAAF pilot, with aeronautical and aerospace engineering degee's?

I am currently in the recuiting process for RAAF pilot ADFA, I am just waiting for a Flight Screening in December. The degree that I am aiming for at ADFA is the Bachelor of Engineering: Aeronautical. However, pilot's can only undertake the Bachelor of Technology: Aviation. Should I continue with my application for RAAF/ADFA, even though I will not get the degree that I will need for NASA?

Regards,
Douglas

[Keg]

. Is it possible that NASA would consider a RAAF pilot, with aeronautical and aerospace engineering degee's?

Only if you also have US citizenship. Even Andy Thomas was a 'yank'. Maybe this has changed but your nation either has to sponsor you and pay for the seat (Australia hasn't in the past) or you need to be a yank citizen.

However, pilot's can only undertake the Bachelor of Technology: Aviation.

Not correct as far as I'm aware but it's been a while since I've sourced this sort of information. You can do a search of the Australian Air Force Cadets Bulletin Board Defence Careers forum available at this link:

http://bb.aafc.org.au/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=39&sid=33e8a0817bbaaf085fe35e9b77239d7b

Lots of advice there about flight screeing, ADFA, degrees, etc.

Good luck.

[Brian Abraham]

Off thread a little but in 67 a bunch of Aussies went through flight training with the US Navy at Pensacola. One of first things done among the administrative check in was to give everyone an astronaut application form. Dont think an Aussie would have got far in the process however. Best of luck with it Doug and hope we get to read of your trip to Mars - and no I'm not kidding. :ok:

[Douglas Watts]

Thank you very much for your replies and support. I have been dreaming of NASA ever since I was a child. Becoming an astronaut means everything to me, so I need to make the right decision's in my career to lead me to my ultimate goal. :)

ADFA is willing to allow me to undertake an engineering degree, however the defence recruiters are a bit hesitant based on two reasons.

1- The ADF is not prepared to give a pilot an engineer's degree, when they could train another engineer.

2- The ADF do not like the fact that the engineering degree takes 4 years. They give pilot's the 'BTech: Aviation'

Refering to the NASA website, the BTech AV degree will not qualify me for NASA. (Look at the Basic Qualifications section)

http://astronauts.nasa.gov/content/broch00.htm#bqr

That leaves me with having to find a way to gain an engineers degree during my service. My dilema is: why should I even work on the BTech degree? Can I get it converted to an engineering degree later?

The NASA website also states that 'Flight Test Experience in highly desireable'. This makes me consider becoming a Test Pilot during my service in the RAAF. However, Test Pilots also need engineering degree's. :{

I have heard about Pilots doing engineering degree's at ADFA, so it cannot be impossible. I think that I just need to find the right contacts in the Defence Force. Maybe I could convince the PSA at the Flight Screening to let me undertake the engineers degree by telling them I want to fly as a Test Pilot after serving as a Fighter Pilot... That might work.

I have been looking into gaining the Engineering Degree through civilian universities, but it is financially impossible for me. The only way I can get this degree before serving in the RAAF is at ADFA.

I wont let you down Brian. I am going to be the first Australian to walk on the surface of another planet, I just need to find a way to get there. :-)

I'll keep searching for information, Thank you.
Douglas

[brickhistory]

To be one of the front seaters with a stick for NASA, you will need to be an experienced pilot (probably Test Pilot school grad), US citizen, and have an advanced degree in a hard science.

For the payload/mission specialist, advanced degree plus sponsorship by your country could be a way - the Israeli who died on Columbia, the Japanese astronaut(s?), others have been connected with ESA (European Space Agency), NASDA (Japanese Space Agency), or a country 'buying' a seat to support a particular mission. Oh, or be a powerful Senator (Glenn and Nelson) who controls NASA's pursestrings, but then you bump up against the US citizenship thing again.


However, since you are 18, your opportunities could be much greater if the hoped for/partially expected boom (no pun intended) in space travel occurs.
Being an Aussie fighter jock with test pilot experience would be a fantastic resume entry for maybe Rhutan's Mojave operation or some of the others that are in their beginning stage. Arent' there some guys with plans in Australia for a spaceport?

Best of luck!

[Truckmasters]

If your really want to go via the RAAF then take whatever entry you can get that gets you a pilots course. The RAAF is wary of engineering degrees prior to pilots course as they've had a bad run of people doing the degree and then not being interested in the piloting side.
The other option for you is post graduation from pilots course. If you are prepared to do study (out of hours) you will find that the ADF will give support to complete most forms of tertiary study (sometimes even fulltime) whilst you are in the force. Obviously it will cost you some money but the RAAF will also cough up some money and time off for exams etc. You can go all the way to PHD if you are prepared to write the correct application forms.

Best of Luck

[eagle 86]

Brian,
You mean you haven't got your call up yet - I report to Houston Jan 07!
GAGS
E86
PS Hope to see you in NW.

[Douglas Watts]

It does not make any sense, why should the degree I undertake at ADFA have anything to do with the service that I am enlisting for. After all, I have meet pilots who graduated ADFA with degree's in law and art; nothing to do with aviation. They say that their degree's give them something to fall back on later in life.

I will give the recruiters a call today and talk to them about the engineering degree for test pilot, and see what they have to say...:confused:

As for US citizenship, I can work on that later in life. I have thought about moving to the US now, working on citizenship, then joining the USAF (which would make it easier to port over to NASA). However, I think that this method is too risky. I do not have any connections over there, I am not financally set up yet and I still do not have an engineering degree (USAF pilots need engineering degrees to apply). So I need to see what I have to work with in the RAAF. :(

Is there an age limit to join NASA? I may not have the years in my life to reach my goal, the ADFA/RAAF/TEST PILOT revenue might take up to 20 years, which makes me 40 by the time I apply for NASA. However, if can pass their physical should I be ok?

Regards,
Doug

[eagle 86]

ADFA 3-4 years
Pilot Course 1.5 years
F/A18 OCU .5 year
2.5 years Op Tour
1.0 year TP course
2.0 years TP
Around 12 years if you are good - ready to seriously look at NASA.
GAGS
E86

[Douglas Watts]

What about my ROSO (Return Of Service Obligation) for the traning and degree at ADFA, I will have to serve in the RAAF for about 21 years (4 year degree + 12 years minimum service + 5 years ROSO). That makes me 40 years old... so I will have to gain all of the neccessary qualifications for NASA in that time period.

I spoke to the recruiters and told them that I want the engineers degree so I can serve as a test pilot after fighter pilot, they told me that I need to convince the OSB (Officer Selection Board) at my Flight Screening. :rolleyes: They also told me that I can get a BTech Aviation degree converted to a BEng Aero by returning to UNI for a 2 year conversion. I dont want to do the conversion at ADFA because I would get more ROSO (3 years). :{ I would have to do it part-time at a civilian UNI.

Another thing to consider about the BEng versus the BTech for pilots, is that the ADF will not give me the BEng because it take 4 years instead of the 3 year BTech. However, they are willing to allow pilots to return to ADFA to have their BTech's converted to BEng. On top of their service time in the RAAF, the extra time that it takes to get the degree converted extends the pilots service time to the same amount that they would have if they did the 4 year BEng degree.:confused: So if either way takes roughly the same time and resources, where is the complication in allowing me to do an engineering degree? Past Pilots have taken degree's in law and bussiness, so they have something to fall back on. I want the engineer's degree for the same reason...TEST PILOT then NASA.

Regards,
Doug

[eagle 86]

DW,
I can assure you that recruiters DO NOT have a clear picture of what the real world is like - have a definitive picture of what you want - get in and pursue your goals - don't get wound up over such things as ROSO at this stage. If your not in you've got no hope.
GAGS
E86

[jonny5]

Douglas,
Aren't you getting just a bit ahead of yourself! You haven't even done flight screening which i presume is like grading over here and you are on about being a NASA pilot! Get in the real world and concentrate on one thing at a time!
I suppose we can all dream though!!!:rolleyes:

[FFP]

I'm sure it doesn't need to be said, as you sound pretty switched on, but here goes anyway.

Make sure it comes across very clearly that you WANT to be a fighter pilot / test pilot in the RAAF, and not that you are using it as a stepping stone to becoming an astronaut.

Also to suceed in the fighter pilot / test pilot roles, you'll need to be highly committed to becoming one. It will be a long, hard road and unless you want to be a fighter / test pilot for the right reasons, it'll be even harder. If that's what you want, then brilliant. But just make sure you do. You will spend alot of your life doing it before you get into space.

You sound extremely motivated and have certainly researched your chosen career well. Let us know how the flight screening goes. All the best and good luck :ok:

[PLE Always]

G'day Bloke,

Having an Engineering Degree wont hamper you as a pilot in the RAAF. The point is according the Psych's that people with engineering brains think to much, get bogged down in the details and this has an impact on their decission making process etc etc. Generalisations of course but the statistics prove it supposedly. We were told this on day one at 2FTS, quite a laugh considering quite a few of us had engineering degrees. It's all down to the individual.

Civy BEng (Mech) worked just fine for me before joining up. Many guys could hold down reasonably well paying jobs at the same time and rack up the civy flying qualifications, which will never hurt.

I've been lucky enough to meet Andy Thomas a couple of times now and you can tell just how immense the experience was for him, a truely content man.

I totally concur with what FFP said. Also the RAAF is a very exciting and challenging place to be right now, but it's no s..t real as well, with many many people working very hard and in harms way.

Enjoy and Good Luck! :ok:

PLE

[JAG3]

You are getting a bit ahead of yourself but I don't blame you and if it's your dream go for it because I intend to do everything in my power to achieve my dream and I'm sure I'm not the only one in this forum. If you look at the USAF careers website you can actually apply for the position of astronaut although I things that a bit tooooooo specific but of course your aussie.:ok:

[Pisces1]

Douglas,
You DON'T have to have an engineering degree to become an RAAF Test Pilot. My late husband went to US Navy Test Pilot school at Patuxent River, Maryland thanks to the RAAF with just a Science degree from ADFA( albeit in Maths and Physics). 5 of his fellow American test pilot school classmates went on to become NASA Astronauts. In fact, two of his classmates just landed in the Space Shuttle yesterday. My husband's dream was to become an astronaut. Now our son (17) is in the USA as a VIP guest of the pilot of the shuttle, invited to the launch and landing - and HE now wants the dream of becoming an astronaut. He too is planning to join the RAAF and work to that end. ( -his Mum wishes he would become an accountant or something safe!!!).
Good luck to you- life is what you make it.
BTW: Andy Thomas may be an 'American' on paper, but we can claim him as a true Aussie- he still speaks like us!!!

[Douglas Watts]

thanks to the RAAF with just a Science degree from ADFA

Wow!!! Thats incredible.

So did the RAAF allow your husband to attend a US Test Pilot School during his service or afterwards?

I am thinking that whilst serving in the RAAF, I should get as much involvment with military aviation in the US as possible. Preferably as a Test Pilot. However, I think that my ROSO from attending ADFA might restrict me from those opportunities.

Have a look at this:

http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/default.asp?initMedia=1&media=flash&bounceBack=/default.asp&p=1052

The website is about vacancies in oversea's postings within the RAAF, and FA-18 Pilots are on the list. Hopefully during my service I can get posted to the US as a RAAF pilot. That way I can work on my citizenship and make some contacts over there.

About US citizenship, I have been looking on the internet and I have heard that the citizenship test is really difficult. It covers historical facts about US history, details of the American Flag, the operation of their government system, etc. I have downloaded some programs with practice tests, and I have borrowed some books from the library about US history to help me prepare for the citizenship test, which may be a long time from now. I can also apply for dual citizenship, where I can retain my Australian citizenship whilst gaining US citizenship.

I'll keep looking for information...:)

Thanks,
Douglas

[jonny5]

Douglas,
BECOME a pilot first! then worry about all the other stuff! If you look to far ahead you may trip over something right in front of you!:ouch:

[brickhistory]

Doug,

Great advice from jonny5. Get the first steps done before worrying about stuff years down the road.

Like getting into the RAAF, being selected for pilot training, getting into fighters vs. transports (NOT knocking the heavies, and some of NASA's folks came from the heavy world), getting operational, etc. etc. Then keep plugging away on your very commendable goal of becoming an astronaut.

And as far as the US citizenship hurdles, if you can make the above, you will have no worries about becoming an American citizen. And depending on how your life works out (that whole pesky thing about life interfering with the best plans like kids, etc!), you might not even go that route.

Study and work hard, have a plan, change it when necessary, but have some fun along the way!

[Hugh Gorgen]

Douglas,

The ADFA BTech is effectively a condensed BAero degree. Converting it is not difficult and the RAAF would allow you (if so desired) to complete this. You just have to argue your case.
The RAAF requires 10 years ROSO after pilots course graduation. If you incur further ROSO during this period, it can be served concurrently (meaning you don't have to serve more than 10 years). For example, if you were to succeed with your dream plan, the timeline would be as follows;
Graduate Pilots Course - 10 years to serve
Hawk conversion and IFC (18 months)- 8.5 years to serve
F/A-18 conversion (6 months) - 8 years to serve
Tour in F/A-18 SQN (3 years) - 5 years to serve
Test Pilot School (1 year)- 4 years to serve (incur ROSO however has no effect)
ARDU (3 years) - 1 year to serve
Return to SQN / Complete degree etc.

My point is, you can easily qualify as an F/A-18 test pilot in 10 years (I know of many guys that have).

As mentioned, you will face citizenship issues with the US. You can achieve a US green card via numerous means (search google). One of which is to serve on exchange with the US military and see active service (has happened to quite a few guys)

A few guys have mentioned that you focus on the now. Its very good advice as the road is hard and arduous, and you need to put effort into the now.

The reality is, it is exciting times in the RAAF with the prospect of some great capability coming online soon. If you join now, you will probably see the JSF into service (subject to a billion hurdles), the A330 is coming soon, AWACs, C17.

Good luck

[Douglas Watts]

Thank you very much for your advice everybody.

I have spoken to representatives from ADFA about the Btech conversion course. They say that it is only 1 year in duration, and allows me to gain the full BEng Aeronautical.


I think that it may be best to apply for the Btech first and convert to the BEng later. I think that selecting the BEng initially may be a hinderance to my application for pilot. Especially in the officer interviews; it may be an indictor for lack of knowledge in the operation of the RAAF/ADFA. I can just imagine them saying, 'why apply for BEng when you are going for pilot?, why not become an engineer?' However, I will make the OSB aware that I intend to serve as a test pilot later in my career, and that is why I will nedd the BTech conversion course.

Defence recruiting invited me to an information session about ADFA and the RAAF. I have attended several of these sessions in the past, and they were all the same. However, two F/A-18 pilots who graduated from ADFA will be there this time to answer some questions. I will speak to them about their careers, my career plan, ADFA, etc...

The school break has just finshed here, and Term 3 has begun. This is the crucial period in Year 12, so I will keep up with the study and homework to get my grades as high as possible.

I will keep everybody posted with my progress...

Regards,
Douglas

[BEagle]

'Onya', as, I believe is the anitpodean expression?

The RAAF website is pretty good with some useful information. But the 'Skip Intro' bit always makes me chuckle - shouldn't that be 'Skippy Intro'?

[eagle 86]

DW,
You do realise of course that out of a crew of seven in the shuttle only two are pilots.
GAGS
E86

[Douglas Watts]

Hello everybody,
I am going to submit my ADFA application with the 'Bachelor of Engineering: Aeronautical' degree as my preference, although the OSB will pick on me about it, I believe that this is definetly worth a shot. :) Maybe, if the academy offers me the degree, the OSB will believe that I am worth their while...

I have found an article about an ADFA student from 2001, who managed to get work experience at NASA during his Aeronautical degree:

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews/EDITIONS/2001/4303/story05.htm

This is incredible, the possibility that I may be able to make connections within NASA during my degree. An experience like this would without doubt help me get a little more momentum in my life ambition...

I managed to get in contact with a pilot of a Russian 'Yak-52' plane, who is helping me prepare for my Flight Screening. We have organised a flight every Sunday, when we will head down to the airfield to learn something new. He has not only introduced me to many of the fundemetals of aviation, but he is teaching me aerobatic maneuvers and how to cope with the many other asects of flying. I had my first flight on Sunday. He pushed me from -4 to +7 G's, it was the most exzilerating experience of my life. This is definately going to help me get the edge to 'knock them off their feet' at the Flight Screening.

However, I have to learn how to cope with nausea and adrenaline.
After a few minutes into the flight, my arms and hands starting tingling and cramping with adrenaline. How do I stop this? Controlled breathing? Is this normal? I also felt a little nausea, I did not take any motion sickness pills beforehand and had not eaten anything, no breakfast/lunch, because I felt that it would help prevent me from getting airsick. The pilot told me that control my nausea and adrenaline, I must eat dry food 2 hours beforehand, drink plenty of water, control my breathing and relax...

Can anybody offer me some advice?

Back to my homework...:)

Regards,
Douglas