Bell 412 start up with engine air inlet covers on ...

[Sax412]

Just a simple question about the topic above: if experienced a start up wihout removing one or both of the engine air inlet covers what actions should be taken before the next flight?
I was told that it depends wether the ITT has exceeded the maximum permitted temperature or not and I was told also that there is a standard procedure on the manual dealing exactly with this case more than explaining what to do in case of a "normal" FOD during the start up or the flight.

I've looked all the documents I got in order to find this specific procedure but I found nothing ...
Does anyone of you has ever experienced this kind of issue and is aware of the correct procedure to follow and where I can find it ?

I hope not to be OT ...:uhoh: ... by the way it's a very important point to discuss about do you agree with me ? :O

Thanks a lot to you all,
Sax

[SASless]

Step one would be to firmly kick some butts about the ramp for being stupid!

I would worry first about basic safety procedures and adherence to checklist requirements before starting engines.

At first glance, however, it would seem a standard FOD inspection would suffice assuming the ITT and other start parameters were not exceeded.

Some of our Techie friends might have better ideas and hopefully will pass them along.

[Sax412]

... I forgot to tell that even if ITT and other limits were not exceeded a good part of the cover had gone into the engine air inlet. Part of it stopped on the net at the entrance of the turbine but where is the missing part we hadn't find? has it been expelled out of the turbine or it's stucked somewhere in some compressor's stage?
The actions taken have been: removal of the cover's part melted and stucked on the first air filter, visual check just of the first air compressor stage, start up and power check and 15' test flight.

I'm wondering if this actions suffice or if the turbine should be further checked opening it to be sure no parts of the cover got stacked inside the engine ... I'm know I'm a little bit too much strict but , you know, 110 miles on the sea during day or night time need this kind of issue to be fixed for sure!

[Spanish Waltzer]

Try not to turn it into an issue of cost. If you are concerned that some of the cover has gone into the engine then the ONLY course of action I believe is to have the engine opened up to check for damage and/or remaining debris. Otherwise you will never know and you are risking the lives of all those that fly in it as either crew or pax. Made doubly more important if you are doing long sea transits where quick landing options are significantly reduced. But thats just my opinion....:ooh:

[Sax412]

The point is that I fully agree with you but I'm not in charge of anything more than stressing as much as I can the possible negative sides of the story ... so also for me this is just my point of view!
Thank you very much though!:D

[What Limits]

So make an entry in the technical log along the lines of ' Suspect FOD to engine no 1 during start'

Then an engineer has to do something and everyone is covered.

[Matthew Parsons]

To prevent recurrence, tell the pilots to count the rivets on the particle bypass doors during the pre-flight. If they can't count them, then tell them to remove the inlet plugs.

Although this seems like an easy one to avoid, once you're seated in the cockpit it's not an easy one to diagnose. Failure to light may be the only symptom you notice, so you go through a dry run then a second start attempt. Maybe you even decide to try the other engine to get a generator online before you go through that process on the first engine. Point is, its a simple cause but can lead to costly outcome.

[Sax412]

An engineer has already performed some check, the point is if these checks are all what he shoud have done or not... that's it!

[Spanish Waltzer]

Simple then - tell the engineer and your boss that you want them to accompany you on the next flight and tell them it will be a long over sea night transit. If they start squirming and making excuses about not wanting to be home late for dinner then strongly suggest a second opinion from the engine manufacturer is sought.....:ok:

[TukTuk BoomBoom]

Hey dont ask people on an internet forum would be my first suggestion.

Call your Bell or PWC tech rep thats what they are there for.
If its just a personal thing do it without mentioning the company. Most of the tech reps ive dealt with are very helpful.

(15 minutes test flight sounds pretty conclusive though.)

[noooby]

15 minute test flight sounds a bit silly to me, especially if part of the cover was missing!!
Call tech rep first, if you can't find a procedure for suspected FOD injestion.

Start with the easy stuff. Remove the mesh grill from the intake and feel for damage on the first stage compressor. Insert borescope down compressor and check further stages, and impeller, if you can.
Remove an ignitor plug and borescope the combustion liner checking for damage. Insert the borescope guide into said igniter hole, and check the Nozzle Guide Vane, and Compressor Turbine.
Any damage found, refer PT6T manual for limits. No damage found, ITT was in limits, compressor didn't surge, then all should be OK.

Spanish Waltzer, if you don't trust your engineers, maybe you should change jobs. They undergo 10,000 hours of practical and theory training just to get a basic licence, then extra requirements for each type rating on top.

Call Agusta (there should be a P&W rep there), or call P&W direct. They should be able to help. And pleeeeeaaassssseeee tell them EVERYTHING. I have been involved in fault finding where the pilot didn't want to tell us everything because he thought he would look silly. After 5 days trying to trace and replicate the fault, we finally got the whole story, and went straight to the problem.
Apart from the 15 minute trest flight, I agree with tuk tuk boom boom.

Regards

[Downupside]

I agree with Nooby
In any case do not forget that an engine is not just an assembly of compressors and turbines!
If there is a possibility of foreign material ingestion (even with no scratch or dent on the compressor), all the air system, pipes, pressure sensors,etc. must be duly checked. You never know when the least expected piece of fabric will be stuck into an air tapping, a pressure sensor, an oil jet... ruining your long over sea night transit!
Being a bit conservative never reduce flight safety level!
Cheers
Kami

[Rich Lee]

The only advice that matters is that of the engine manufacuturer. Provide them all the details and follow their recommendations to the letter. Failure to do so will risk the life of anyone subsequently operating the aircraft.

FOD and overtemperature are not the only terms of the equation. Much of the stresses in a turbine engine occur during start and shutdown. Starting with an inlet cover disturbs the delicate balance of air and creates situations that may lead to significant fatigue related failures.

Starting an engine with inlet covers installed is something the happens more than you might believe.