New ATPL Ground Training Objectives

[BlueRobin]

A ground CFI told me yesterday that revised ATPL training objectives for theory should be introduced soon but are still behind due to differences of opinion. Does anyone have anymore on the development of the syllabus?

[paco]

I know the helicopter ones are expected early 2007.

I also know the lady who is writing the learning objectives and they no longer have to be ratified by committee. You can expect changes up to 3 times a year from now on. This may also apply to fixed wing.

Phil

[ROI1900D]

Does this means is going to be easier?
Pro's and Con's?
Thanks

[BlueRobin]

I think some greater relevancy may be introduced. I did ask about astral navigation and was told someone wanted it back on the table!

[Unusual Attitude]

No sign of the introduction of an upgrade route from CPL to ATPL theory yet??? That would make far too much sense I suppose !!! :rolleyes:

[Alex Whittingham]

Its a long story, and I'd just get angry if I tried to tell you the whole of it. Suffice it to say that the JAA 'Subject Expert Teams' took on the task of rewriting the learning objectives produced by the industry right at the start of JAR. Where they didn't mess with things too much they didn't do much damage, where they did their output was totally unusable. Central JAA is currently considering the problem.

[RVR800]

So to sum up......

We don't know what will change or when....

It keeps them all in work bless them............Complexity is job creating

[potkettleblack]

As I was revising GNAV last night I came across FMC's, magnetism, DR compasses, point of safe return etc. Now I thought I had already passed all that stuff in radio nav, operations, instruments and flight planning. Oh well it must be important then if the are making me learn it 2 or 3 times over!

It really has become a bit of a shambles this whole thing. We should start a list of the farcical things in the JAA exams. Heres a couple from me:

- 2 comms exams which take minutes each to sit
- bigger exams such as flight planning where an extra half an hour would be nice for some
- graphs that are almost illegible although I think the CAA might have finally cottoned onto this
- Loran C - is it still actually used? Actually don't get me started on the useless/outdated snippets of information bits and we could use up pages to note these!

Shame they stuffed it up as they had a chance to make the course really useful. More relevance would have been great and having a set of exams that set you up nicely for the CPL and IR plus gave you skills that would be required when flying the line such as more emphasis on weight and balance, performance charts and jepps.

[RVR800]

At the end of the day there is a whole industry out there making a living out of all this.

People go into panic when they see new questions being inserted into the bank - that will affect the results adversely - hassle all round

It all depends on how good one is at sucking out the content-, it all takes time though

Introducing a new syllabus often results in a high failure rate; of course they may be concerned that too many people are getting their pencil marks in the right place - after all its been a few years now since loads of people from the major schools were failing due to not having exposure to (what was then) the new question bank.

People bet bored after a while with the same old same old

[Alex Whittingham]

The proposed Learning Objectives are posted on the JAA site at http://www.jaa.nl/licensing/jar-fcl_consultation.html. The consultation period ended in early June.

[Grass strip basher]

Surely they can't change the syllabus on people already in the middle of taking the current 14 exams!!:eek:

[Alex Whittingham]

The last plan I heard was to run two sets of exams in parallel for a period. That would of course mean running two sets of crammer courses, having two sets of manuals current at the same time.....

potkettleblack, the course you describe is what we would have designed for the MPL - because ICAO allows the FTO to design its own course and test the candidates internally - but unfortunately the JAA have decided everyone still has to do a 750 hour course and all the normal exams.

........I can feel myself getting upset.

[boogie-nicey]

The JAA are wonderful and fair people, who actively listen to everyone concerns and are genuinely committed to helping all pilots.

The poor chaps go home unable to sleep due to their overwhelming worry about licensing. :E ...............

........... Why does the CAA have to be part of this patronising and stupid mess? Is their some kind political reason for it. It's our fault for subscribing to this rubbish, why can't we look after ourselves?

[BlueRobin]

Boogie, I don't quite get your comment about the CAA. How have they specifically acted incorrectly within the bounds of ATPL theory?

[RVR800]

Looks like the ATPL sylallbus has suddenly become all 'teaching and learning' centric ... someones been looking at Blooms hierarchy of the cognitive domain .. people may (tongue in cheek) actually remember some of this stuff .... (if its done right)

One problem with the ATPL its all a bit monkey-see-monkey-do there is a lot of lost knowledge because much of it is all about do-this, do-that and that gets you the answer .. then they will forget.. so what is the point of that..?

Oh one can dream....

[paco]

Potkettleback -

LORAN is alive and well and indeed is just evolving into eLORAN which is about the only viable backup to GPS, since its signals are relatively unjammable (you can easily jam GPS signals with kit from Radio Shack). It now comes on a slot-in card for the GPS in your aircraft.

With reference to common sense and questions - one of the new subjects on the Helicopter ATPL is Image Intensification. They are perfectly aware that the average new pilot won't get to see such technology until they get several hundred hours under their belt, and I gather that the tactic will be to leave such stuff in the syllabus so that you know about it, but just not ask questions. Let's hope it works!

Phil

[boogie-nicey]

Sorry I should have made it clear. I was wondering why the CAA can't withdraw from the JAA and run it's own affairs? That's all .....

Anyway don't want to get off topic here so hey what the heck just forget about it.....

[BlueRobin]

JAA is officially dead at the end of 2006 I believe. This joint committee approach apparently didn't work so we know have EASA which overseas all policy and regualtion with national aviation authorities acting supposedly as servants to their master. It is a bit late for the UK to pull out of this European Union agency.

[zaf]

So guys would somebody explain what is waiting JAA students? will anything change?

[Piltdown Man]

To be relevant to aviation, the exams should on:

1. How to read METARS and TAFS.
2. The three times table.
3. Eating cold, unplatable meals on your lap.
4. How to write pointless numbers, words and drivel in small boxes on badly designed plogs.
5. Flower arranging, car mechanics, interior decorating and crosswords.

You would have a very high chance of using what you are taught and we could drop the rest. However, my guess is that those studying will continue to get :mad: about without the pleasure of foreplay.

PM

:cool:

[tinmouse]

Hay,
I believe that in the USA the commercial FAA exam consists of ONE exam. 100 relevant questions. The study can be done in a couple of weeks!! It appears they concentrate on the job at hand and the practical flying side. Like, how to be a pilot!!
Is JAA APTP a bit of overkill?

[paco]

Whilst acknowledging that there is some redundancy in the JAA exams, and that they seem to like trick questions, there are many who feel that the FAA one should be more, although most of it is in the check ride, which should not be written off lightly. In any case, their philosophy is that you will get the same training over the years from company ground school, etc - The JAA like you to have it before you start.

Phil