The Future for Funded Training

[easyflyer]

So we're seeing more frequent occurences of the latest trend in airline integrated training - these monitored/mentored schemes - OAT and Excel/TC, FTE and GB/Tfly/FlyBE, Cabair and FlyBE.
Does this mark a move by the airlines to respond to any shortfall in newbie pilots? Can we envisage a time when we return to a BA cadet model (where the training/financial risk is borne by the carrier)?
For people like me - hovering in the wings trying to understand the best (cheapest/lowest risk) way to fund ab initio training - it's an important point.

Is now the time to move, or hold off pending the next cadet model, but risk a downturn in the market??

ef

[Lucifer]

The next economic cycle is predicted to end in 2011 (i.e. should be the bottom of any downturn or recession. Since we are at the top of a cycle (5 years in from the prior bottom in 2001), and at the same point in the last cycle (1996) they were up and running, but now, there are far too many funding it themselves and producing the quality of product required by airlines through integrated schools.

A couple of years ago I would have said yes, but ask yourself - as an airline executive - would you bother with so many paying themselves?

No.

[scroggs]

We may have been at the bottom of the cycle in aviation in 2001, but that was an artificial bottom. The general Western economy was in fine shape at the time, and on Sep 10th 2001 the airlines were recruiting like mad!

The aviation sector was far harder hit by SARS than 9/11, but even then the wider economy remained pretty healthy. In UK, I think we are several years further into economic growth in this cycle than we've ever been before, and the future looks reasonably good. But then it always does, just before the fall...!

All that just means that it's more difficult to predict the aviation cycle than it was in the latter years of the last century, in which an 8 - 10 year cycle seemed to be standard. There's no doubt, however, that a downturn will happen sometime in the next few years.

As for training, here we are at the height of a recruiting boom and wannabes are still happy to pay upwards of £100,000 to obtain a job - and the supply of wannabes is showing no signs of slowing down. What company finance director would sanction a company-funded training scheme in that environment? None that I can think of.

Scroggs

[hingey]

What company finance director would sanction a company-funded training scheme in that environment?
Atlantic Airlines perhaps? :ok:
h

[scroggs]

Oh, there will be the regular ones that already exist. Atlantic is one, and more power to them for doing so. British Airways? Dream on. If they do anything, it will be along the same lines as CTC and will cost them next to nothing.

Scroggs

[raviolis]

We may have been at the bottom of the cycle in aviation in 2001, but that was an artificial bottom. The general Western economy was in fine shape at the time, and on Sep 10th 2001 the airlines were recruiting like mad!


Didn't know much about the business at the time (not that I do now anyway LOL) but weren't the likes of United, Conti, Delta, Swiss, Sabena and many more in deep trouble already, and Sep 11 only made it happen all much quicker ?
Others, like Alitalia, in the same boat but rescued by state money ?

Looks like the low-costs are doing the business at the moment, but how many of them keep the same schedule for more than 6 months ? Always new routes added, but many are also scrapped as soon as they don't prove efficient any longer.

Last but not least.. last week I was flying Ryanair from Stansted to Turin in Italy. Boarded by Eastern European accents at the gate, welcomed on board by Polish cabin crew and Polish Captain on board. Service was excellent, perfectly on time as usual (in my 10 years of Ryanair travels) but how much of that was a UK operation ?
Nothing wrong with the global market.. just a curious note !

[captwannabe]

Ryanair will hire almost anybody who pays for the TR, regardless of their nationality. Irish and blond Swedes are preferred though. ;)

[scroggs]

Ryanair is not a UK airline. Why should it appear to be one? In any case, as an Irish (and thus EU) employer, it is bound by law to open its employment to any appropriately-qualified EU nationals.

There certainly were problems on the North Atlantic market in 2001 before 9/11 - that's one of the reasons the conspiracy theorists like to quote in their sad attempts to explain away the events of that day. Nearly all the US majors were in deep doodoo for reasons exclusive to that country and market. There were also problems at Alitalia, Sabena and Swissair, though they may just about have survived had 9/11 and SARS not happened (though they probably would have been subsumed into other carriers). However these weren't symptoms of a failing market, they were failing, nationalised companies - and that can happen at any stage of the economic cycle. The Atlantic market was struggling, but it would have been a temporary correction in a background of general economic strength. Many airlines (including mine) were already looking at shifting capacity away from the North Atlantic prior to 9/11.

The aviation scene away from the North Atlantic was in rude health - several companies reported record profits in 2000/01. Expansion in the Pacific Rim was the real tiger in the market, and all those airlines that could were looking to develop their products in that area. The outlook was very rosy indeed, and recruiting at those airlines that operated over there was very healthy.

At the same time, the low-cost carriers in UK were really driving the market here - and they were barely touched by 9/11 and SARS. The fall-out from the legacy carriers meant that recruiting of low-hour pilots virtually stopped, but that didn't mean that recruiting overall stopped. In fact, it barely paused for breath!

No, the aviation market in general was doing well. It was just the USA that was (and still is) sick.

Scroggs

[easyflyer]

Something has changed recently - the birth of widespread mentored schemes.

I was wondering what the driver for this development was. Fair enough that it is of little cost to the airline itself, but it does take quite an admin/logistics commitment for that airline to get these schemes up and running. To what extent has the supply/demand dynamic of quality trainees shifted recently? And extrapolating out (assuming the cycle holds up), what (if anything) is the next configuration of training.

If I remember well, the old BA scheme was 'company-funded' upfront, but all being well was ultimately cost neutral to the employer through the reduced salary mechanism. I CAN see an FD sanctioning this kind of managed financial risk - the key to this being effective recruitment screening.

Also, don't carriers such as Air France, Singapore and MEA et al. currently have active cadet intakes? They must see some value.

Is it as simple as saying that here in the UK, in 2006, wanabees are now happy to pay GBP100k for training whereas historically in the UK and elsewhere in the world they are not?

[jumbo-clingfilm]

what is this "mentored scheme" thing?

surely just get the training, get the licence and get job hunting.

sounds like another way for someone (airline&flying schools) to make money out of wannabee pilots.

please tell me I'm wrong and how it works!

jumbo

[easyflyer]

Jumbo,
A mentored scheme (for example just being run by OAT in conjunction with Thomas Cook, and FTE with GB Airways) is a broadly typical integrated FATPL course, paid for by the individual, but with an airline having (i) preselected you prior to starting the course and (ii) monitoring your progress throughout. The course is apparently tailored to that particular airline's requirements (I assume at the more advanced stages of training, in accordance with their SOPs).

There is usually some financial engineering going on, e.g. you start on a reduced salary compared with a DE hire, but there is an element of 'repayment' of your training costs in addition to the reduced salary.

Theoretically, at the end of the course (vacancies permitting, naturally), you join that airline, who cover the cost of the TR.

[K. Soze]

Cathay still sponsor and i think the guys from China Southern and Oman also get their training paid for.

[dboy]

I'm sorry to say but it really makes me laugh when people say that aviation is doing well. There are still a lot of pilots out there who want a job, but regardless what they do, companies still refuse to hire hem because they don't have rating with hours on type. It is really a paradox.
grtz

[scroggs]

You think it's not doing well? Why - because you can't get a job? Look at the profit and traffic figures of European airlines this year. They're all up between 5 and 50%. That extra capacity has been flown by new pilots. Believe it.

Scroggs

[dboy]

I'm sorry to say scroggs, but i'm not the only one who cant get a job!! Perhaps born in the wrong country?? i guess so. So the ones who did get a job are the ones who went to oxford, epst,etc. And if i look to the requirements, still asking for a rating and hours. Nothing much i can do about it.

best regards

[K. Soze]

I can't get a job either :( probably wrong country as well

[dboy]

voila, this is what i want to say: there is no relationship between profits companies make and recruitment.

[K. Soze]

Looking at a few of the schools in my part of the world the statistics seems to point towards SSTR's as a nessesary step towards a job. Looking at my own school the majority that graduated in the last few years that has a job today did a SSTR. I have a list from my school that tells me that 99 people finished the course of those 7 became instructors, 4 did the CTC Wings AQC and 16 did SSTR. Only 2 or 3 got a job straight from school onto planes like the PC12 or C208 the rest were still looking for a flying job when the list was compiled. Another school that has a list on the internet shows almost the same - 108 graduates of which 10 got jobs the normal way, 5 became instructors and 20 did a SSTR and 1 did CTC.

Following threads on a local forum suggests the same - SSTR or instructor rating (looking for jobs in the uk as the market is flooded at home) or unemployment.

The case is very different in the UK as far as I've seen myself but there is still a lot of people looking for jobs that has difficulties getting a look at all. Fact is that the 3 main schools gets a lot of the attention when a company needs new lowhoured recruits. That undermines everybody else.

[scroggs]

The fact that more people have decided that it would be nice to fly aeroplanes is no fault of the airlines. No-one promised you a job when you decided to spend your money! It has always been true that there are far more wannabes than jobs for them to fill. That is still the case. However, there are far more flying jobs now than there were 4 years ago, or 10 years ago, or 20 years ago.

Scroggs

[Lucifer]

Something has changed recently - the birth of widespread mentored schemes.
I was wondering what the driver for this development was. Fair enough that it is of little cost to the airline itself, but it does take quite an admin/logistics commitment for that airline to get these schemes up and running. To what extent has the supply/demand dynamic of quality trainees shifted recently? And extrapolating out (assuming the cycle holds up), what (if anything) is the next configuration of training.
If I remember well, the old BA scheme was 'company-funded' upfront, but all being well was ultimately cost neutral to the employer through the reduced salary mechanism. I CAN see an FD sanctioning this kind of managed financial risk - the key to this being effective recruitment screening.
Also, don't carriers such as Air France, Singapore and MEA et al. currently have active cadet intakes? They must see some value.
Is it as simple as saying that here in the UK, in 2006, wanabees are now happy to pay GBP100k for training whereas historically in the UK and elsewhere in the world they are not?
The airlines are very interested in this sort of training, and avoid modular recruiting to some extent as - whatever ability one can demonstrate on the day - they find it harder to find a single training record, a standardised end product, and consequently someone who is more likely than not going to pass the type rating.

Even holding a type rating is worthless as it has no hours on type, is not done to that company's SOPs, and does not allow them to see the speed with which one has picked up the knowledge and the capacity to operate on the line.

Paying without having passed a selection for ability, and dispersing a training record, create a difficult environment in which to get hired, even for the most able people.

All a mentored scheme creates is - for little investment - access to the course, preselection of the best, elimination at an early stage of anyone who could waste their money on a type rating.

Unfortunately there is no need for altruism when easy credit is available from banks.

[K. Soze]

Exactly 10 years ago in my part of the world a major airline recruited 200 pilots and they did that every year until oct. 2001. Since then they have not hired 1 single pilot - as the matter of fact they have layed off 450 and they just started talking about 100 more. The market for new pilots is stuck because the main airline is not recruiting which stops the natural "food chain". Pilots stay where they are to keep flying and that makes it very difficult for wannabees to get into the game. Thats why a lot of them do a SSTR and seek their luck in the UK or Eastern Europe.

It all depends on where you live. A lot of the responses to posts on this forum relates solely to things going on in the UK - but the situation can be and is different in other parts of the world. So scrogss - maybe you're right if we talk about UK airlines - but as a non-uk person it is very hard to get anybody to look at ones CV - which i perfectly understand. But everything on this forum is not about the UK - the world is a little bit bigger than that.

[A320rider]

some chaps here are very closed minded...they take their desires for reality and only find the truth later.

this market is filled by thousand of unemployed pilots.you just have to look at the number of new commercial pilots who do not find job.

France, germany, italy have an unemployment record of 10-20%, and it is even higher in eastern europe.France has only 3-4 airlines and thousand of applicants who are still unemployed after years of research.

and now we have students paying 1 or 2 type ratings on eavy jet like the 737and who still do not find any job...(and without knowing disqualify themselves).

no, there is no job in the aviation industry, and it is not red hot...
there are maybe some opportunities for the very rich who want join eaglejet and work for free, ...but I dont really see any change since 2001

please, stop to believe it is plenty of jobs in europe. if it was so, airlines will offer free training from 0h to ATP, and this is not the case anymore since 1980.
most advertises ask for 500jet or capitaincy.nobody want a 200h-2000 pilot with a fresh t/rating...

[Deano777]

Will the last Wannabe and out of work low houred fATPL pilot PLEASE switch off the lights on the way out of the industry :ugh: :ugh: :rolleyes:

[scroggs]

Exactly 10 years ago in my part of the world a major airline recruited 200 pilots and they did that every year until oct. 2001. Since then they have not hired 1 single pilot - as the matter of fact they have layed off 450 and they just started talking about 100 more. The market for new pilots is stuck because the main airline is not recruiting which stops the natural "food chain". Pilots stay where they are to keep flying and that makes it very difficult for wannabees to get into the game. Thats why a lot of them do a SSTR and seek their luck in the UK or Eastern Europe.

Yes, SAS is in trouble and the situation is not improving for them.

It all depends on where you live. A lot of the responses to posts on this forum relates solely to things going on in the UK - but the situation can be and is different in other parts of the world. So scrogss - maybe you're right if we talk about UK airlines - but as a non-uk person it is very hard to get anybody to look at ones CV - which i perfectly understand. But everything on this forum is not about the UK - the world is a little bit bigger than that.

Yes it, is, and in the vast majority of the world the airline business is having some of its fastest expansion and best trading for many, many years. However, this is a British-based site, and this particular forum focuses on the British industry. We have other forums for other parts of the world, including Scandinavia.

Scroggs

[boogie-nicey]

This 'mentored training' lark is a double edged sword

(i) extract more money out of the gullible wannabe, which can only be run by the few schools that hold the holy grail of flying.

(ii) stop the current trend of the great unwashed constantly raising the money and getting into flying courses that should be reserved for Sir Bumphrey's son/daughter.

:E :ok:

[Pizzaro]

Stop paying for type-ratings and these sort of courses and things may change. As long as people are willing to pay they won't, thats the bottom line.

Regards P.

[Stratman]

You are indeed correct, and note well the comment by scroggs when he says that if people are prepared, and it only takes one to start this lamentable trend, to part with huge sums of money to secure [ ironic term in this once enviable industry] a job, then the people who run these companies will rub their hands together, maybe order that new Lexus, and laugh all the way to the bank, They need pilots to make their business work, to them it is not some romantic notion of putting on a uniform and operating some aircraft at any cost, indeed the opposite is true. Twenty years ago airlines needed a large supply of pilots to continue operating , few people would consider parting with obscene amounts of money in order to secure work possibly because like myself they had seen much of British industry ripped to pieces by the will of a certain lady and the start of the `I want it now` greed culture which evidently is alive and well. These airlines `had` to offer for example, to pay for the completion of instrument ratings, the completion of performance exams and gave you a job as well. I personally had a call from the then recruitment boss at British Airways telling me to ring him as soon as I had my licence issued. My point here is that nothing has changed , the companies still need pilots or they close down, the beancounters do not like that because it curtails their lifestyle somewhat, people are making it very easy for them and very difficult for those without the ability to keep throwing money at this industry, a two tier system now exists and that is very sad because it need not be this way, There seem to be too many people thinking only of themselves, not taking a long term view at all [ you will regret it }
I understand what it means to want a job. I have been made redundant many times in my career, three times in aviation. Selling your souls for a job flying an areoplane is not the way forward, make no mistake about that.
Good Luck.

[Pizzaro]

Weel said Stratman,
Would you expect a surgeon or solicitor to pay for their in-house training. Pay for your type ratings and help the airlines make the profits instead of offering pilots decent terms and conditions. It's our industry, we'll reap what we sow.

Regards P.