Turbo Mallard - Grumman G-73

[sebrof]

can anyone tell me what sea state the turbo mallard can operate in?

[pigboat]

Check your PM's.

[pigboat]

...but just in case you don't check your PM's...:p

Fred Hotson has thousands of hours on the Mallard, albeit the piston version, and he informs me that as per the Aircraft Flight Manual, the aircraft "may be landed and taken off from the water with waves 2 & 1/2 feet high."

He adds the caveat, "I always caution that the experience of the pilot should be factored into such numbers." ;)

[sebrof]

Thanks for that, be assured if I had some PMs I would have checked and if I was endorsed I would have known.

[tinpis]

Er...knowing nothing about aquatic flying beasties how does one measure the wave height while driving said hairyplane?:hmm:

[Brian Abraham]

Tin, when you reach the age of 12 or so (puberty) we'll tell all.

[Nardi Riviera]

2,5' waves are HIGH, only the hardiest would want to fly then.

Although flying boats can handle higher waves than float planes.

Even 1' white-capped waves can be scary to the uninitiated.

Sebrof - reckon you haven't spent much time in a sailboat either.

[pigboat]

It is said you can get a Norseman on floats airborne with three three-foot waves. The first one you go over the top, the second you plow through and then bounce into the air off the third one. You then sit in ground effect for awhile to build up enough speed to climb away. :p :p

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The ability to judge wave height is as much a necessity to know for sea plane pilots as the ability to judge an aceptable landing surface for wheel equipped airplane pilots.

Briefly, there are visiable wave action signs such as white caps and wave action on shore lines that are your first indication that they are high.

The most accurate and the last visual check of wave height is the picture you get just prior to touch down....once you get that close to the surface it is quite evident if the waves are to high...assuming you have the experience to understand what you are looking at, and that is where proper training enters the equasion.

Chuck E.

[Nardi Riviera]

Believe waves are measured from top to bottom.

Which means that Pigboat's suggestion will give 1 1/2 ' topcaps, and his rendering of takeoff technique is only for the best of us. That size of waves would give me the shivers when on floats...

The Norseman is one of the best floatplanes ever. Each version had different qualities. Need to ask a friend who flew them, in order to get the correct details on its performance.

Chuck - you're a natural, and therefore it is difficult for novices to follow your description of floatflying. A student can only learn to assess waves when shown by a competent instructor real-time.

I got my seaplane rating in 1974 with an old instructor who earned his licence in 1925. No intercom, no pre-flight briefing or nothing. His way was to demonstrate the techniques, and if you didn't copy on the first try, he'd do it again until you did. Way to go!

Sadly, this way of proper learning is long gone. :)

[tinpis]

Thank you .
Tin has never even been in floater of any sort .
something I must do one day.
Funnily enough was a Beaver here on floats that I once flew with wheels.

[pigboat]

Nardi you are quite correct about the Norseman being a great float plane, mainly because it was very well floated, with either the Edo or Bristol 7170 floats. Additionally, the airplane is built like a tank. It can take a lot of punishment on floats or skis. My little anecdote about the three three-foot waves was told to me by a late friend who had a lot of time on the Norseman. Its shortcoming is its lengthy takeoff run. You need large lakes with the beast. :O

The Beaver is an even better float plane. Not only is it well floated with the standard 4780 floats, but it has the added advantage of STOL performance. If necessary, you can flap the aircraft off the water in rough conditions.

On the other hand, in my opinion the Otter is a poor float plane. It's a thousand pounds heavier than the Noorduyn, and has the same floats. With the large tail and ventral fin, you can also forget trying to turn the thing on the water with winds of anything over about 15 kts. You learn to sail the thing backward pretty quick, and if you do have to sail it backward, never, never shut the engine off. ;)

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

So, would this count as too high?

http://users.hol.gr/~quasar/images/Tsunami1.JPG




:}

[Nardi Riviera]

Pigboat:

Thanks, buddy! Don’t get discussions on water-flying too often in here.

Over the years, many stubborn seaplane pilots have forced an unwilling a/c from upwind to downwind on the water. They all got wet!!! Saltwater inside is expensive – only float bottoms should know it.

Sailing can be extremely entertaining to old salts perched on the pier – when pilot has not tried it before with injection engine: “Oops, the darn thing will not restart!” Crash bang. Also expensive… Normal-aspirated engines will cool down sufficiently during sailing to restart easily.

Still awaiting answer from my Norseman-pilot friend about the wave size, as well as other issues. (Would like to know, myself.) Reverting.


Chuck:

Waves are fair, because you can actually see them. But SWELLS are scaaary. Like those produced by large ships picking up speed. Visible only from very low altitude, and often not before touchdown. Have heard some ghastly stories in this respect.


Tin:

Yeah, you should indeed try water-flying sometime. It is veeery special.


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh:

Yes – THAT wave is DEFINITELY toooo high for ANY seaplane!!!

BTW – did you create your nick when in a rage? Sounds like my passwords from sessions of changing internet distributor, trying to get the IP or whatever in its proper place: Like “Heeeeeelllldamnit-1/2/3”. If you could do with like 3 a’s (as in most “abbreviations”), it would be easier to read your posts…

Regards to ya all. Nardi.

[pigboat]

Hee hee, the old 'damn thing won't start because it's hot.' Only happened to me the once, as a very junior 185 pilot. I shut down too early and missed the buoy. No damage done, I just paddled up to it. After that, a mechanic said "Never mind what the Chief Pilot told ya, here's how you start a hot 185. Throttle wide open, mixture idle cut-off and emergency fuel pump to emergency." Never missed another hot start. :ok:

The Beaver was easy to start, hot or cold. The trick was to not over prime it. We used to haul hunters and canoeists in to this river. (www.missinaibi.com/moisie.htm) What the article describes as Fish Ladder Portage we called Fishway. The rapids are pretty big, because the river makes a very tight dogleg right. The current is very strong and you let the pax off on the riverbank very close to the head of the rapids. The procedure was to have the guy onshore hold the tail of the airplane until you got the engine started, at which point you were on your own. I once had an overeager paddler let me go before I could start the engine. It seemed like an hour before that Pratt came to life, all the while the rapids were getting louder and louder. :eek:

The pic on that page was taken a mile or so below the Fishway rapids at a place called Gildersleeve Canyon. That's one of the best salmon fishing spots on the river. It's named for Stanley Gildersleeve an ex-president of Standard Oil NJ who had a private fishing lodge on the left (East) side of the river. That bluff on the right is about a thousand feet high. The river runs roughly NE/SW at that point, and you land heading NE (up-current) and depart heading SW (down-current), irregardless of the wind. The reason is that sharp dogleg I mentioned. You can't climb out of the canyon before hitting it.

As a bit of trivia a late friend of Chuck's, a gentleman named Moose Murdoch, flew the construction material for the lodge into there with a PBY. I don't know how in hell he did it. The current there has to be at least 8 or 10 kts. :ooh:

[Nardi Riviera]

Pigboat, you have plenty of float experience, and can relate to this:

The Norseman my friend flew cruised on only 110 mph. Anyways it was fairly underpowered – even if original specs state 125 mph cruise, it’s not impressive for 600 hp.

Mk IV gross weight on floats was 6450 lbs, and the suggested Edo type YD floats had 6470 lbs buoyancy. General rule is for each float to support 90% of gross weight, meaning it was “well floated”. Bigger floats are better for waves, but you already stated that.

My friend’s Norseman had Pee-Kay floats, and the keels V-shape is sharper than Edos. This gives better wave-handling, but longer takeoff run: EDOs get on the step earlier than Pee-Kays and also get out of the water sooner. Takeoff distance was of no concern then, as operations in Norway were mostly on sea, thus Pee-Kays were better.

Another floated friend enjoyed a Beaver the few years we had one here lately. (Until 1977 we had many bushplanes, but now floatflying on freshwater is restricted, and skiflying nearly extinct.) Used to 206’es and somewhat sceptical to the new beast. Didn’t take long before he was ecstatic – could haul twice as much as in the Cessna, which meant more revenue for less labour. He just loved the Beaver on small lakes at high altitude. Alas, summer ops only were not enough to warrant its keep, and it’s now in Germany – on floats.

Thanks for the tip on restarting hot injection engines! Always listen to mechanics… I can very well imagine those seconds before the engine started when floating towards the rapids. The takeoffs you mention sound pretty hairy, but that’s mountain flying for ya. Your rendition of a Norseman-takeoff was hilarious. Thank your friend for me, pls.

Too bad (?) you mentioned the Otter, now I have to call on another friend who flew them on floats like 40 yrs ago. Curious about what he can tell. Reverting – again…

About mr Murdoch in the PBY – those old salts sure had their mysterious ways which sadly are about to be lost now. My seaplane instructor started in 1925, and when I took a closer look at the a/c in his logbook I wondered how he managed the things he did with ye very underpowered olde machines. Some say that if you’re gonna learn proper floatflying, it’s has to be with a 65 hp Cub.

Well, another thread that ends up with something else than its heading! Thanks, sebrof.
- Ehh, taking off with flying boats, we somehow got lost on floats in the bush… :rolleyes: