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microfilter
6th Jul 2006, 12:29
Seems things have changed since my day- I heard that things aren't so good out at Goodyear- 'backseating' aircraft for hours at a time- no OAT rep out there- miles from anywhere...sorties at 5am....can anyone out there tell us what's going on?

Groundloop
6th Jul 2006, 12:36
Don't know about the OAT situation but sorties at 5.00 am may be to fly in nice still air to avoid turbulence later in the day.

Adj
6th Jul 2006, 16:22
hi all
well just to clear up some of the "hype" thats on ehre about OAT and Goodyear that people have heard
firstly - we do not start flying at 5am....the flying program runs from 6am through the whole day and through to the night....students actually request to fly at 6am and much prefer this time than any other time of the day!!!
as regards your comments about backseating....not sure who your source is but u got totally the wrong end of the stick here - you are assigned a flying partner and you can if you so desire backseat their flights and they backseat your flights - not all of them are possible as some are solos for a start - most of the backseating i did was to learn what we are being taught and to get more familiar with the area and it was 100% useful.....other backseating was on nav trips where one would fly out to somewhere and the other back which is much more fun than flying local!!!
It is not feasibly possible to backseat more than you fly!!!
i don't quite understand how there is no OAT rep outhere either?? the place is run by oxford....i agree there have been teething problems and not everything has run as smoothly as we would or oxford would have liked but everything has either been sorted or is getting done....AP himself was here the first few weeks making sure everything is ok and has been back when the new courses come out....also other staff from oxford have been here along with the staff that are here at present!!
as regards being miles from anywhere - a bit exaggerated - the base here is not in a "prime" location as was scottsdale being in the middle of the city!! although we do have to travel upto scottsdale if we want to go out or anything there are plenty of shops/restaurants etc within a few minutes drive (i say drive as you try walking in 40C heat!!!)


anyway just to finish...beign out in goodyear myself i can reassure people that things "are good"!!

regards
adam

rdmallows
6th Jul 2006, 16:27
Seems things have changed since my day- I heard that things aren't so good out at Goodyear- 'backseating' aircraft for hours at a time- no OAT rep out there- miles from anywhere...sorties at 5am....can anyone out there tell us what's going on?

Microfilter, suggest you need to check your sources as they're incorrect on several counts. As a student currently at GYR, I can help correct the inaccuracies:

Yes students back seat each other, but if they are backseating who is in the frontseat? Answer another student! And then they will swap over.

GYR is a fully operated OAT base and is staffed only by full time employees of OAT, several who have come either from Oxford or SDL.

Training does start at 6am. But as pointed out by Groundloop training in the desert requires an early start as temperatures can exceed 43c by 2pm during summer, so training in that kind of weather would be difficult. This is standard practise for all flight schools in this area. Furthermore most airlines will operate flights starting at these times, so early mornings/late nights are an occupational hazard for all in (and hope to be in) the airline industry.

Hope this is of some help.

R

microfilter
6th Jul 2006, 16:39
thanks for the info- can you run through what you do after flying/evenings etc....what's it like being marooned out there? Do you wear orange jumpsuits?

rdmallows
6th Jul 2006, 16:48
Well on campus, there are extensive sports facilities including basketball courts, tennis courts, volleyball court, swimming pool. Indoor games there are table tennis, pool etc.

If you're into shopping (and clothing is very cheap out here), there are approximately 3 malls within a 30 minute drive.

There are loads of restaurants and supermarkets within 2 miles of the airfield.

Those of us who are legally allowed to drink have even ventured out to Scottsdale and Tempe which are the nightlife mecca's of Phoenix and people travel from all over to get to.

However the biggest miss is that there isn't an english pub (with an open fire even though it would have to be air conditioned) 2 minutes walk, selling english beers, with Sky Sports and a beer garden next to a river. Then I would be totally satisfied! :O

R...

PS: We have also been having weekends away and as a group have so far visited;

LA - Universal Studios theme park etc.
Las Vegas - what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas
San Francisco - Seafood and Alcatraz
Seattle - home of Starbucks?
Tucson - Pima Air & Space and Davis Monthan (spotters paradise)
San Diego - great beaches (spotters paradise)
New York - see a concert

microfilter
6th Jul 2006, 17:04
I heard that when you get there you get instructions reminding you to wash every day? Is that true?

Adj
6th Jul 2006, 17:04
hi
let not forget what we are here for now?!?!
were here to train to be pilots - this isn;t a holiday camp where we moan about location or other stuff like that - were here to fly - the facilities for that are much better and is less busy than scottsdale which makes it perfect for students to learn - there are plenty to do in your own social time...
looks as if some people just want ot find holes in the program here...

adam

Adj
6th Jul 2006, 17:06
hahaha
man u hear a lot of wierd stuff!!!!!!!
one guy was sent back to get a shave by his instructor for lookin a scruff and that was it!!!
we did get a welcome pack which stated to keep clean as its not nice being in an aircraft with someone who smells - perfectly reasonable statement to me....so anymore nit picking?!?!
seriously man u need to go out and get some fresh air

adam

microfilter
6th Jul 2006, 17:09
sent to get a shave? Notes telling you to wash! Bizarre...

Adj
6th Jul 2006, 17:12
only thing i see as bizarre is your perception of OAT!!!
does it really matter about some words on a leaflet that half the course didn;t even probably read?!?!
where here to be "professional" pilots not nit pickers mate!!!
lets keep to the good stuff eh?

adam

microfilter
6th Jul 2006, 17:21
Can anyone else see anything strange with being told to shave and how to wash? Does this also happen at Cranfield or at Bournemouth? It would be interesting to hear. What length of facial hair is acceptable in the cockpit?

Adj
6th Jul 2006, 17:23
i hear OAT are opening a kindergarten/creche where u can go cry and moan with all the other babies?!!
ingeniuous idea i must say!!!

microfilter
6th Jul 2006, 17:41
now now- don't lose your cool in the cockpit... I'm waiting for some other views. It does seem that some people have been institutionalised- for them it may be too late- but- just stand back for a moment- if you can and think on that- you are being told that you must wash yourself daily. Can you not even see that may be just a touch patronising? Can any free thinkers out there give us a view?

asuweb
6th Jul 2006, 17:42
Microfilter

I think I speak for many people when I say that we are getting a little bit tired of your vendetta against OAT. You never cease to amaze me with some of your comments. You really need to get some reliable sources.

As for being advised to shave, wash...Perfectly acceptable in my opinion. OAT, and many other FTO's wish to create a professional atmosphere. Would you turn up to your job with an airline looking like :mad:? I think not. As has been pointed out, no one wants to sit next to someone in a close environment who has not has a shower.

microfilter
6th Jul 2006, 17:45
ok but surely everyone automatically has a shower several times daily? What's going to happen when these guys have to cook themselves breakfast? Mind you in Langford I suppose that wasn't a problem either.....

asuweb
6th Jul 2006, 17:47
Yes, agreed, I assume most people probably do take a shower several times a day, especially in the heat of Arizona. However, I'm sure there are also one or two who may not have considered it as a top priority.

scroggs
6th Jul 2006, 17:54
Can anyone else see anything strange with being told to shave and how to wash? Does this also happen at Cranfield or at Bournemouth? It would be interesting to hear. What length of facial hair is acceptable in the cockpit?

If you were on a professional training course with me, and I had to share a small, stuffy cockpit with an unwashed, unshaven you, you're damn right you'd be sent back to remedy the situation. Whatever your perception of your 'rights' as an individual, you are training to be a member of a professional team which represents safety and responsibility to the travelling public, and you have to be bearable in close company. If you can't cope with that, or understand why a certain minimum standard of presentation and cleanliness is required, you're in the wrong business. Perhaps self-employed builder's mate might be more appealing to you?

Scroggs

rsr3
6th Jul 2006, 17:57
Some people really do not realise how badly they can hum in the cockpit! There is a point where you **HAVE** to intervene - and having been there done that myself, I can't say it was fun for me nor the malodourous student!

Surely by briefing on this before getting underway with the course, people who shower regularly can bring their sloping shoulders into action or likewise those that don't can avoid an embarrassing situation!!

I wouldn't take offence to such a thing.

Re-Heat
6th Jul 2006, 17:59
Microfilter:

I too would send a colleague working for me home for not shaving. Contrary to what some might think, there is no such thing as an anarchist's freedom where we can all do whatever and ignore others around us.

Perception of professionalism in all areas is important, and aids to put someone in a certain state of mind.

Go home and moan about your local postal service - you might achieve something then.

microfilter
6th Jul 2006, 18:01
rsr3 gives a much more level-headed response

c_jephcott
6th Jul 2006, 18:09
I've heard stories from Cabair (Cranfield) too about students turning up and looking a little bit on the scruffy side, and consequently being told to go home and smarten up, and have a shave. It happens, as the point has been made in here - quite simply, you are training to be a professional learning a professional skill. Therefore it should match that you should take pride in your appearance.

scroggs
6th Jul 2006, 18:15
Level headed? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

I have been in the position of training young people for the professional flying business, and you would be surprised how many simply do not understand that washing every day is a pre-requisite of being in close company with others. Combine with that the requirement to develop a professional attitude about every part of the student's persona, and it becomes obvious that advice is required before the problems develop. Even so, some will assume that the rules and standards don't apply to them, and will require reminding - and, if necessary, being sent to get themselves into a condition in which they are acceptable to be near.

Learning to be a professional is not restricted to the mechanics of flying an aeroplane and spewing out technical information. It is about personal standards of every kind. It is not sufficient to hope that the less savoury amongst your peers will somehow magically develop cleanliness, tidiness, and personal responsibility before they set foot in an airline interview. They need to be shown what standards are required, and thereafter to be guided in how to maintain and hopefully exceed them.

Believe me, I know. I was one of those recidivists as a 21 year old! If it hadn't been for some fairly strong 'guidance', I would not be a professional pilot now.

Scroggs

Mercenary Pilot
6th Jul 2006, 18:25
I believe all the integrated schools have a similar policy. It’s quite understandable really. A number of the students have come straight out of six form and may have never worked for a professional company and my not have a proper understanding of why image is so important or why "individual" dress sense is unacceptable. Those who know better deserve to be told!

microfilter
I also get the impression you hold a grudge against OAT. Maybe you have a good reason, if so I think you should be up front about your reasons for badmouthing them. You come across as bitter rather than someone offering an honest insight into the company.

asuweb
6th Jul 2006, 18:39
microfilter
I also get the impression you hold a grudge against OAT. Maybe you have a good reason, if so I think you should be up front about your reasons for badmouthing them. You come across as bitter rather than someone offering an honest insight into the company.

Couldn't agree more.

porridge
6th Jul 2006, 20:52
hi all
well just to clear up some of the "hype" thats on ehre about OAT and Goodyear that people have heard
firstly - we do not start flying at 5am....the flying program runs from 6am through the whole day and through to the night....students actually request to fly at 6am and much prefer this time than any other time of the day!!!
as regards your comments about backseating....not sure who your source is but u got totally the wrong end of the stick here - you are assigned a flying partner and you can if you so desire backseat their flights and they backseat your flights - not all of them are possible as some are solos for a start - most of the backseating i did was to learn what we are being taught and to get more familiar with the area and it was 100% useful.....other backseating was on nav trips where one would fly out to somewhere and the other back which is much more fun than flying local!!!
It is not feasibly possible to backseat more than you fly!!!
i don't quite understand how there is no OAT rep outhere either?? the place is run by oxford....i agree there have been teething problems and not everything has run as smoothly as we would or oxford would have liked but everything has either been sorted or is getting done....AP himself was here the first few weeks making sure everything is ok and has been back when the new courses come out....also other staff from oxford have been here along with the staff that are here at present!!
as regards being miles from anywhere - a bit exaggerated - the base here is not in a "prime" location as was scottsdale being in the middle of the city!! although we do have to travel upto scottsdale if we want to go out or anything there are plenty of shops/restaurants etc within a few minutes drive (i say drive as you try walking in 40C heat!!!)
anyway just to finish...beign out in goodyear myself i can reassure people that things "are good"!!
regards
adam
Adj
Having read your post I would like you to consider when you have passed your CPL/IR at OAT to get an airline job you will have to do some assessments - e.g.:
Ability Tests
* Verbal comprehension - which require you to evaluate the logic of given statements.
* Numerical reasoning - which require you to interpret data from statistical tables.
* Diagrammatic reasoning - which ask you to recognise logical sequences within a series of diagrams or symbols.
There are also many other more specific tests: e.g. mechanical comprehension; visual estimation; classification; computer checking.
Having read your post I would have to say you would never make the verbal comprehension stage as I, who has taken the test, cannot make out what the h*ll you are going on about! To me it makes neither grammatical or any sense!
To be sure you have been suckered in by the OAT marketing team; that is certainly obvious. You will join an ever growing band of people who have licences, but have no chance of getting an airline job unless Daddy has connections!
Sorry – but that’s the way it appears to me from reading your post/s!
P

Adj
6th Jul 2006, 20:56
hi
im glad people seem to agree - OAT provide quality pilot training and are one of few places to offer this - like any other business not everythign runs smoothly and hicups are expected but i can assure anyone that OAT tries their upmost to make the customer happy!!
i respect your views microfilter however i don;t see them as being particulary constructive...more picky!
if people generally have had something happen thats cool...but saying..i heard that...blah blah blah doesn't mean much!! im sure whether your told to wash or not wouldn't change anyones view on going to oxford - my instructor today even said to one guy - u shud iron your shirt - its not being told what to do or treated like a kid in any way - its being professional and looking the part too!!
at the end of the day OAT get students jobs many with top airlines such as BA that others cannot and all the students here want to be pilots as thats their dream....if i was to be screwed around with getting that outcome then i would complain but if i come out in 15 months qualified and a job then what more could i ask for?!?

regards
adam

p.s
in response to porridge....i don't care in the slightest of your assessment - often i will type quickly and compact..its what we call slang!...i was unaware that posting on PPrune constitutes a grammar exam>?!?
lets not forget were all perfect at typing either!!
im so glad you found the time to logistically break down my responce and analyze it for me....
til we meet again!
adam

Adj
6th Jul 2006, 21:21
Adj
Having read your post I would like you to consider when you have passed your CPL/IR at OAT to get an airline job you will have to do some assessments - e.g.:
Ability Tests
* Verbal comprehension - which require you to evaluate the logic of given statements.
* Numerical reasoning - which require you to interpret data from statistical tables.
* Diagrammatic reasoning - which ask you to recognise logical sequences within a series of diagrams or symbols.
There are also many other more specific tests: e.g. mechanical comprehension; visual estimation; classification; computer checking.
Having read your post I would have to say you would never make the verbal comprehension stage as I, who has taken the test, cannot make out what the h*ll you are going on about! To me it makes neither grammatical or any sense!
To be sure you have been suckered in by the OAT marketing team; that is certainly obvious. You will join an ever growing band of people who have licences, but have no chance of getting an airline job unless Daddy has connections!
Sorry – but that’s the way it appears to me from reading your post/s!
P

my grandpas not very good either ;)

porridge
6th Jul 2006, 21:44
Adj
You sum up the type of **nker that OAT seems to attract. When I was out at Scottsdale last November doing some other work I recall several times when I opened the security door to the ramp that people of your ilk would pass though as if I was some doorman without so much as a nod or an acknowledgement. So different the polite and courteous Dutch or Belgium guys who would always thank you or when the role was reversed hold the door for you! Now I may be old school and “‘n oupa” (Grandpa). But at least the people from the Low Countries have been brought up to have better manners and I know who I’d rather share the flight deck with (Scroggs - you might like to comment here about flight deck etiquette)!
Yes you will probably get your chance because the industry is short of crews, but you will get your dues someday which ever way it pans out!

goodyear_inmate
6th Jul 2006, 22:14
Porridge,

I understand and agree with a lot of what you have said on this thread but I think it is a little strong to suggest that we are all generic "**nkers that OAT seems to attract"

Goodyear_Inmate

BillieBob
6th Jul 2006, 22:49
OAT provide quality pilot training....True
....and are one of few places to offer this Not true

There are many places that offer quality pilot training and, as one of the recipients of the 'product', I can say that OAT, whilst amongst the best, is certainly not the best at consistently producing a well-rounded pilot, prepared for the RHS of a multi-pilot aeroplane.

It is interesting that I and my colleagues can, in the first two or three hours of type rating training, identify from which FTO a trainee originates with an astounding degree of accuracy.

Adj
6th Jul 2006, 22:58
hi
i meant integrated training when i stated that billiebob incase of confusion! i understand there are many many places to offer quality training....
.....i agree there are some problems here but im happy and feel my training is unaffected...obv some others feel differently
and i don;t think its fair to judge or insult someone based on a post...

adam

Donandar
7th Jul 2006, 08:17
At the end of the day it's not about the company at all - but who you are as a person. I'm sure Oxford, Cabair, FTE, CTC etc. are all top quality schools that deliver high quality airline pilot training (I'm mainly looking at an 'integrated' type of route). You could go to any of these schools and get your licence and get the best quality training that you can from that school.

It doesn't mean however that if you're a complete :mad: that you'll get a job. Airlines aren't going to hire someone with an attitude, regardless of where they came from - but to then complain that it's X schools fault is plain ridiculous.

I would say BillieBob that although there is truth in your statement, most schools will knock out consistently well rounded airline pilots for the right seat - but only in the areas that they can do so. Training schools can't change someones attitudes or opinions and for this, the only person who you can blame, is the one who's complaining he can't get a job and can't see why. Once they've left their training school, if they feel "I can get a job anywhere" kind of thing (that cocky confidence), it's only their own fault for thinking so, not the methods of any one school.

Thats my take on it.

scroggs
7th Jul 2006, 08:34
Training schools can't change someones attitudes or opinions....

Actually, yes they can - and should. When you front up that £60,000 or more to your chosen FTO for an integrated pre-airline course, you are paying not just for flying training but to be fully prepared in all respects for the job you crave. That includes, where necessary, attitude 'adjustment' and all the other things that we've been discussing above. If a school does not attempt to do this, then it's selling you short and your chances of obtaining - or keeping - a job are thus diminished.

Many people don't need a great deal of guidance in the presentation and personality skills that are very necessary in a multi-crew environment, and thus the schools can treat them with a light touch, but there are a significant number who, through their attitudes and personal habits, will struggle to succeed in our field unless they get strong guidance before these issues become a real problem.

It's quite obvious that some people posting on this and other threads have not been beneficiaries of such guidance and, as many have pointed out, will find the process of obtaining work that much more difficult as a result. A good school will take such problems in its stride.

Scroggs

FunFlyin
7th Jul 2006, 09:21
Microfilter,

Backtracking a little. I spent four months out in arizona in 04, and i have to say.

Its the middle of the desert, the temperatures there are amazing. You are walking around with a permanent sweat (although its dry heat). Most people will shower twice or so a day just for that reason. But as it has been said if they dont it isnt pleasant sitting with someone in a small cockpit when they are sweating that much and not showering. Its just good sound advice.

The temperatures are also the reasons for the early starts. For some people this is the first time they will have flown. Especially solo. And come the afternoon you get a lot of thermal turbulence. The mornings are the best time to start your flying, when you are happier the afternoons are amusing and a bit more challenging.

I'm not too sure what you have against the setup or the company. But it seems you are trying to blow things out of proportion.

To all you pilots out in Goodyear. You guys missed out..... Scottsdale was the muts nuts. :E

Drap-air
7th Jul 2006, 12:16
Having read your post I would have to say you would never make the verbal comprehension stage as cannot make out what the h*ll you are going on about! To me it makes neither grammatical or any sense!


You mention you have taken the test but did you actually pass?



I, who has taken the test,



You are the self confessed, all singing all dancing god of English grammar and you wrote that? Furthermore, it appears your comprehension of the title of this thread is somewhat poor. The thread is about OAT moving to Goodyear and you posted a comment regarding Adj's use of the English language. Adj was merely answering the questions previously posted, unlike yourself. Do you still wish to call us all at OAT ***kers?

Having recently returned from Scottsdale it is a shame OAT had to move to Goodyear. However, OAT is a business after all and can anyone blame a business for wishing to cut costs? Fuel at Scottsdale was about $2 per gallon more expensive than other nearby airfields as a simple example and sitting in a warrior for 25 mins at the end of the runway waiting for a take-off clearance at what is an extreamly busy airfield did get a little annoying and hot. I did visit Goodyear, flew in a number of times and the facilities are much better than those at Scottsdale and I can assure people who are going to go there will have a fantastic time and great flying experiencies. Yes Scottsdale Airport is in the middle of a fantastic area with great night life etc etc, but as previously stated you go to the US to learn to fly.

Backseating can be boring sometimes but I would strongly advise it. Sitting in the backseat improves your situational awareness ten-fold and allows you to pick up on others mistakes while learning and will improve your flying.

Ps. There is an English bar in Fashion Square Mall in Scottsdale where you can get every kind of English beer!

boogie-nicey
7th Jul 2006, 12:31
When a student turns up at OAT's door in Oxfordshire having completed the FAA CPL/IR and wishing to convert, they are probably sneered at through the teeth. Yet when it suits OAT they encompass their training in the US. Double standards for sure.

There are many graduates from the US that can no doubt fly better than there OAT equivalents. Simply because they focused on flight training whereas OAT harnesses all of the students with a degree of political fear and JAA draconian bureacracy, too much distraction and not enough flying... :)

microfilter
7th Jul 2006, 12:37
Boogey-Nicey spot on again..... Perhaps Billiebob you could expand on your last post with some enlightening examples?

Groundloop
7th Jul 2006, 13:18
When a student turns up at OAT's door in Oxfordshire having completed the FAA CPL/IR and wishing to convert, they are probably sneered at through the teeth. Yet when it suits OAT they encompass their training in the US. Double standards for sure.


Eh, No! Training may be in the States but it is to the JAA syllabus, NOT the FAA syllabus.

microfilter
7th Jul 2006, 13:43
groundloop is right- that happens if you haven't been doing the 'right' training in their eyes.....I bet the FAA system is a lot better than this bureaucratic Eurofarce anyway !

boogie-nicey
7th Jul 2006, 14:49
I doubt Microfilter or anyone else for that matter has to be 'unshaved' in order to praise the FAA. Perhaps what he's trying to say indirectly is that OAT is not the datum and nor should it's input into aviation be nullifed. OAT and every other FTO has a vital contribution and sharing of experiences in terms of training BUT it doesn't have the exclusive interpretation it thinks it has. This untouchable attitude is what lies at the heart of many of OAT's problem, therefore most of which are self made and imposed on themselves.

But OAT like all companies in the world must bow before the most fundamental building block of commerce ... Cost. In doing so OAT realise that they can save a bundle if they 'outsource' their training overseas while the stduent saves some the lion's share of savings benefits OAT. The syllabus maybe JAA but quite frankly how can you insulate against the so called dreadful standards of the FAA, they'll talk to their controllers, mix in the same airspace as all those Americans, etc, etc..... If a young boy followed a private school's syllabus but attended a city academy the outcome would be diluted to say the least. You can't cover it up and state that the syllabus is JAA, then where is the support structure to help guide and at times dictate that mode of learning. It appears to be a marketed image of hours building in the States. Also what's so special about hours building the JAA way, if it were that vital to aviation learning it would be part of the licences or ratings syllabi. Experience is what it's all about and that's something that's vital in all walks of life. Maybe OAT students are so far removed from the exposure of practical flying that the day they make a genuine mistake they'll be little or no instinct to get them out of the mess. Whereas experience (the art of getting it wrong and learning how not to repeat it again) is what they desperately need to learn.

Silly world of OAT (it doesn't have to be that way but for some reason they are obsessed with being the centre of the univerise, though they don't realise their univerise barely extends past Oxford High Street).

old gregg
7th Jul 2006, 15:56
I wish to say a big ‘here here’ to Drap-Air. Well said.

Porridge, you are entirely out of order in your assumption that all OAT students are wan***s and quite frankly, the statement you made actually portrays you as the wan***

I have recently returned from Scottsdale, and agree with what has been said previously. It is a great place to have some fun, and I personally think that training in the extremely high density traffic of Scottsdale is a huge benefit to any trainee pilot for developing confidence and general awareness of ones surroundings at all times.

I flew to Goodyear on several occasions and can see no problems for future students who will be spending a few months there. I am sure you will enjoy your time and get the most from the facilities.


And boogie-nicey, You might like to use 'the art of getting it wrong and learning how not to repeat it again' but some of us prefer to get it right in the first place and spot where things could potentially go wrong. And the fact that this thread is even here proves your last comment wrong.

boogie-nicey
7th Jul 2006, 16:13
Experience is built on getting it wrong that's human nature and it's dangerous to think that a syllabus (though primary) in training is the only thing. How many times have you learnt how to do some General Nav question after getting it wrong and then looking very deeply at it and slowly come to the light of realisation. This is what I mean when I refer to it in terms of flight training. Other FTOs also teach the course right first time but they still do and always will bank on experience to help weed out the mistakes/problems that creep out. How can a course teach you every eventuality, no instruction will ever prepare you for fear or stress. They can only do so much to simulate those conditions but you'll act differently when rehersing your lines because you know full well there's no one there but on stage during the opening night it's a different kettle of fish.

I am not having a gripe with OAT exclusively only where stupidity and arrogance rears it's head :ok:

old gregg
7th Jul 2006, 16:29
I agree that Humans inherently get things wrong and learn from them, however I don’t like your seemingly blasé attitude towards it. ‘Getting things wrong’ in aviation can and has on many occasions, prove fatal. Being taught the correct way of doing things first time round, and noting when problems might arise is how tragedies can be avoided. You seem to be suggesting that getting something wrong and mitigating is an appropriate method of learning; I however think that at the very latest problems should be trapped before mitigation is necessary. Even during the learning process. And the experience you talk about comes about from trapping problems and in future you can avoid the same problems before they even develop.

I really don’t think ground school questions can be related, you can simply put down the book and think about it. In the air it is far far different. Im sure you can appreciate.

microfilter
7th Jul 2006, 16:30
Boogie is right in that in this game, money will inevitably decide who gets the majority of airline positions. I think lots of people probably despise that fact- there is no doubting that OAT integrated guys get jobs- come on, we just can't doubt it. This does not mean they are the best people for the job- it's just convenient- much in the same way that Dixons is more expensive but has poor choice- OAT makes a product- and that is acceptable to an airline. The cost obviously puts off those who can't afford it and therefore some of the best may never be given the chance. WHen cadets were around you could feel that these were some of the top boys for the job- more hours of groundschool etc- now its pretty much pay the 70 big ones and you have a cracking chance to get an airline job. The world is a cruel cruel place....if you're really bothered.

old gregg
7th Jul 2006, 16:34
Microfilter, you really have no idea whatsoever. I can tell you're not an aspiring airline pilot. And if you are, you really need to think about doing some actualy research.

Lucifer
7th Jul 2006, 16:39
there is no doubting that OAT integrated guys get jobs
So you actually finally admit there might be a value in their links with airlines?

I suppose alternatively one could ask - how much would a modular guy have to spend to attend events and network in order to obtain the same range of contacts as OAT themselves. If the answer is greater than what one would pay OAT, then one could say you've made a poor choice.

old gregg
7th Jul 2006, 16:42
Thats off topic mate. Modular Vs Integrated is argued to the bone.

boogie-nicey
7th Jul 2006, 16:49
Old gregg; My friend you seem to be taken my comments and stretched the elastic too far.

I am simply saying that we need the best possible standard of course teaching, flying instruction and that arms the student to

(i) Best handle as many situations as possible
(ii) In the most effective manner possible.

I'm not as you seem to be implying that we just read a couple of books and just try and figure it out like some brain dead looser. In aviation I have one thing that's always in the back of my mind, there is no high nor low standard only THE STANDARD.

Please no need to start disecting my approach to flying, there's really no need for that, thank you.

old gregg
7th Jul 2006, 16:52
Very sensible comment. And i think we are actually on the same page. I agree with your two points.

microfilter
7th Jul 2006, 17:07
Boogie is right again- everything in the UK is of a terribly low standard anyway so why should we expect anything better from flying organisations. It's funny in Britain you get absolutely lambasted for trying to make things BETTER- unbelievable. Profit motive all the way and a nation in fear of criticising anything. Glad I'm getting out of this wide-screen TV, microwaved meal, McDonald's, SUV and 'my dad's bigger than your dad culture'. I expected better from you northerners out there... :zzz: Perhaps i should do some more actualy research- whatever that means....

geezajob
7th Jul 2006, 21:10
sounds like A320driver, or rider, whatever it was, has learnt english properly and is back for a bit of a windup.

micro - you can't be serious about everything you've said.

you've either been turned down by OAT and can't take it or you're just here to start an argument.

seems that way to me anyway.

Lucifer
8th Jul 2006, 01:46
It's funny in Britain you get absolutely lambasted for trying to make things BETTER- unbelievable. Profit motive all the way and a nation in fear of criticising anything
And yet you have no economic understanding of how profit and competition lead to improvement.

Quite interesting that you have no understanding of economics, yet comment endlessly on the shortcomings of today's market.

I couldn't care less what you think is off topic until Scroggs tells me so - other than that I will engage my brain to argue where I believe someone is uninformed or talking rubbbish.

therapist
8th Jul 2006, 07:44
You are always judged firstly on your appearance! Look smart, fly smart! It's as simple as that. People who care about their appearance generally care about most things including the quality of their flying. Those who've rushed to a lesson with inadequate time to shave and shower etc., will probably be equally unprepared for the flight to come with the obvious expensive consequences. Those students who complain about their appearance being criticised would not dream of attending an interview at British Airways (or any airline) unkempt and I doubt whether any airline Captain in that company would tolerate his First Officer in the same condition: Qoute from BA Flying Orders: The Captain should ensure that he and his crew always present a good personal appearance. Enough said?

As for OAT, CTC, Jerez etc., one thing all these schools have in common is a healthy wish to do the job well. Not all have the financial back-up which Oxford has but all are trying to produce the best pilots which are as much a function of the flying instructor as they are the school. Get a good instructor and the rest normally follows. OAT attracts no different wannabees than the other schools and it is rude and insulting to infer otherwise. OAT's investment at Goodyear has been enormous in both finance and interest from all the managers at Oxford right up to the MD and beyond.

As for jobs, OAT is the only school with a department dedicated to obtaining their graduates' positions. Not everyone will be immediately successful but this is more a function of suitability and attitude and frankly not the fault of the training organisation. There has never been a better time to get into this industry but make sure you pack your razor blade!

donkey2
25th Jul 2006, 18:10
It is regrettable to say that the flight training advertised by OAT is not being fulfilled. The courses at Goodyear, OATs Fair Weather Base, are not receiving intensive flight training. The main problems are:
-Aircraft are poorly maintained, and frequently go unserviceable. Oxford employed instructors have openly said that aircraft are unsafe.
-Scheduling: Students are scheduled for flights in aircraft that are not suitable for the lesson. I.e. not suitable for night flight, or instrument flights.
-Management: Flight instruction is excellent, but there is a lack of leadership to implement strategies and plans for the general running of the base.
-Morale: Students are frustrated and few attempts have been made by Oxford to improve living conditions. Building work is yet to be completed, the accommodation exterior smells of sewage. Showers are unhygienic and dangerous. This is completely unsatisfactory when students pay £800 a month to live in the accommodation. Both students and flight instructors are perturbed with scheduling and serviceability issues.
-Lack of communication: There is little communication between staff and students (rumours run rife). Again no apparent communication between management and other sections, i.e dispatch, customer services.
-Weather: At the moment only a few flights are able to be achieved a day, due to the prevailing weather conditions. FAA instructors will not fly above 40’C(due to insurance reasons) and severe thunderstorms have cancelled many Navigation flights.

In summary, the fair weather base at Goodyear is not fully operational and there appears to be slow progress in making it so.
Would be interesting to hear other students’ views that are training at Goodyear.:ugh:

Regis Potter
25th Jul 2006, 20:21
FAA instructors will not fly above 40’C(due to insurance reasons)
What? That was never the case at SDL. It's over 40 everyday after noon between July & Sept. Someone needs to step in & have a word me thinks!

Wazzoo
25th Jul 2006, 20:26
Some of these things have been raised before, and some have been refuted.

Would help your cause if you backed things up a bit. Are you an OAT student past or present? (you're based in London so I guess not) Where are you getting this info from, or are you just trying to stir something up out of nothing?

Would help us all, and the future of this discussion, if there was some evidence or experience behind your statements.

Keygrip
26th Jul 2006, 18:44
I pointed out to OAT (at SDL), two years ago, that the "Arrows" (that I flew) had performance graphs that reached only 40°. So, no performance data was available for flights departing in the summer afternoons.

They promised me that conversations with Piper concluded that the graph was not a limiting factor.

greengage22
26th Jul 2006, 19:55
So what you are saying, in effect, Keygrip, is that:
1) OAT has a management setup which is flexible enough to change their mind,
and
2) professional enough not to operate outside the graph.
Sounds like a good company to me. Not one which is cutting corners.

BillieBob
26th Jul 2006, 21:39
They promised me that conversations with Piper concluded that the graph was not a limiting factor.When there is an accident, as there surely will be, OAT will find that the insurance companies do not share the pragmatic view of the [unidentified] Piper source.

Keygrip - Not to put too fine a point on it, if you chose to accept the assurances of OAT over the Arrow POH, you deserve everything that you get (or lose)!!

Regis Potter
26th Jul 2006, 22:48
The answer to Keygrip's question was actually covered by the introduction of the Koch chart which demonstrates that in fact, density altitude (& not temperature alone) is the limiting factor. Piper & the local FSDO verbally agree in principal that it is safe to extrapolate beyond the published performance data, however, as BillieBob points out, would an insurer accept this in view of the fact that effectively, the aircraft is being operated in an environment not encompassed by the POH? The Warrior suffers the same problem & at schools in other parts of the world where the daily temps. regularly exceed 40C, flying activity stops at lunchtime (Qatar, W.Australia for example).

BillieBob's assertion that
When there is an accident, as there surely will be
can't be attributed to temperature alone though for the reason I've described. In the event of an incident for an unrelated reason however, I'm sure the NTSB would be interested in determining why the aircraft was operating outside of it's published envelope.

The_Fat_Flyer
27th Jul 2006, 17:08
The majority of the FAA instructors at GYR will not sign students out solo above the Piper limit of 40deg. Some will sign students out up to the OAT limit of 43deg, and some will fly dual above this.

According to OAT, who have talked to a source at Piper, Piper recognise the use of interpolation using the density altitude to determine the performance figures, but not extrapolation of the current charts. As yet there is nothing in writing from either Piper or the FAA, but OAT say they are expecting something soon. However, looking at the other posts here, I am expecing to be waiting a while!

Keygrip
27th Jul 2006, 17:39
Why do people keep saying "Limit" - the top of the drawn graph is not "limiting" (nor is it listed in the limitation section of the POH).

Could a Goodyear resident student please quote the current Goodyear Ops/Training Manual. What does it say in there?

plugg
28th Jul 2006, 07:08
Microfilter -

you sound like the kind of student that thinks all he has to do is pay the money and collect the licence.
OAT work very hard to maintain high standards in their Fair weather base and it tends to be poeple like you that focus on the 'minor' areas of weakness instead of just getting on with the task in hand. You wouldn't turn up for work with any airline un-shaven would you?
I speak from experience as I used to work for OAT in a previous life.

The_Fat_Flyer
28th Jul 2006, 07:17
The OATC limit, as posted in flight ops is 43 deg

<<edit: Thanks for that - but, to be fair, a notice pinned on their won wall is not "regulatory". The Ops/Training Manual has been approved by the CAA.>>