ME/IR before CPL?

[unstable_aloft]

Hi, I would like to hear from anybody who has undertaken the rather unconventional route of gaining an IR before the CPL.

Did you have any particular problems during the IR course due to the lower skill level (a lower skill level than a CPL undertaking the same course).

Here's my situation; I've passed the 14 ATPL exams through BGS. However, whilst studying for those exams, I barely flew for about a year. My total time and PIC hours were not much more than when I had the PPL issued, so I've done 50 hours of hour building.

It seems to have taken forever to do just 50 hours, and I'm still well short of the 150hrs TT & 100hrs PIC required for the CPL (I'd need to do another 30hrs to get to that point).

I do have enough hours to do a ME/IR though. I know I'd still have to do the additional 30hrs anyway, because the IR is all PUT with no PIC time.

So here's my dilemma; do the additional 30hrs now followed by a ME/CPL then IR, or do a ME/IR now followed by 30hrs hour building and then finally the CPL course?

The thing is I'm really p*ssed off with hour building, its taken ages to do the 50hrs and I don't relish the prospect of more weeks upon weeks of hour building. I feel like I'm getting nowhere fast and feel under pressure (mainly self imposed) to see some real progress, which I consider to be getting on an IR course.

But I'd welcome you comments on whether its generally OK to do the IR as a PPL, and then do a CPL, or whether I should persist with the hour building/ ME/CPL + IR route.

Sorry if all that was a little long winded, and many thanks in advance for all your replies.
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Unstable_aloft

[Megaton]

Without a shadow of a doubt, it is better to go the CPL first then the ME/IR. The level of difficulty of the IR is such that many ab-initios struggle. Completing the CPL first gives you a much better grounding in disciplined flying. I've watched a few people try the IR first and it has always been a disaster. IR costs per hour are much higher so you want to be as well prepared as possible before you embark upon it.

The IR is hard enough work after the CPL; trying it before the CPL will cost you more in the long run.

PS I'm sure there's some Chuck Yeager out there who sailed through the IR then the CPL but for every ace there are a hundred plain vanilla, average students.

[EGAC_Ramper]

Did the route of ME/IR before CPL myself,looking back on it not that I had any problems BUT if I had the choice I'd go back and do the CPL first...it seems a more natural progression and with myself I hated the VFR CPL phase after having done the IR first.


Regards :ok:

[Cactus99]

I did IR then CPL. CPL after the IR is an absolute breeze. It is more difficult doing it this way without any doubt (the learning curve is much steeper) but it can be done. I know a few guys who did it this way and got either a partial or full pass.

I dont know what your flying skills are like so its difficult to advise either way. All I would say is do around 30 hours of the IR in an approved sim FNPT 2 or the like which (a) will cost you less and (b) prepare you for the aircraft in which you will fly.

Good luck!:ok:

[Keygrip]

Yep - Cactus has it right, IMHO IR first - then a breeze of a CPL.

Various members of the CAA actually recommend it. Much quicker and cheaper in the long run.

[mad_jock]

I also did IR first with no great problems. It does chop a fair bit of time off the cpl.

As EGAC stated going back to VFR flying is a bit of a shock to the system. And I really couldn't be bothered with fannying around doing glide approaches and PFL's. Its alot easier to stick with what you know and do the test in a twin. Which is a single engine failure on go around to single engine to land. Which you will be very up to speed on for your IR. In my opinion there is alot less variables to go wrong with doing the cpl in a twin. The ability to do a glide approach and a PFL is so vital to CPL holders NOT.

Its horses for courses. I did a session in the sim with the IR instructor and he decided if it was the best way to go or not.

Also as well the CPl examiner seemed to treat the IR passed first people differently. The CPL first they did the full monty of watching them approach the plane, walk round etc they had to do a pax brief etc. then spend bloody ages doing cockpit checks etc all under the "eye". The IR's first just got told to go and start it and he jumped in after about 5 mins with engines running. I was still doing my instrument checks when he jumped in and said he "we are going VFR you don't need them". And as usual I engaged mouth before brain and replied " I have paid for them and its leeds its 4k viz and I am checking them". He just laughed and away we went. BTW the vale of york is a utter bastard for VFR nav in 4k viz. I never did find that sodding VRP to the south in the whole time during my training 4k or 10k. Apparently it was at the bottom of a valley next to a bow in the river next to a cinema.

I don't know why he didn't bother maybe because i had already jumped through the hoops with the CAA examiner. The CPL did seem to be just another bit of paper after the IR. Maybe because you are that brain ****ed after the IR or doing it in the twin it only seemed to be the NAV you needed to sort out, all the rest was just the same as the IR but you had to look out the window. You might get questioned about what would you do in xxx situation. With an IR under your belt you would just reply I wouldn't be fannying around at this level anway in this viz i would be IFR above MSA.

[bfisk]

I'm an an integrated ATPL program where most of the flying takes part in the US. At the same time we are doing FAA liscences as well.

Did PPL just under 50 hrs, continued on to build VFR cross country hours. Then did IR at 145 hrs, and then did 50 hrs IFR cross country. With 250,3 hrs, I did the commercial checkride today, and passed. Minimum is 250 hrs under part 61, so I pretty much wrapped it up in as few hours as possible. A few hours in the ME now, and I believe I'll be ready for the checkride with the end of the week, or early next week, hopefully.

IR was a bit hard to start off with, but everything you don't know is difficult...

[genius747]

Unstable aloft, weigh up the cost per hour reductions.
IR before the CPL, your CPL training is reduced by 10hours, from 25 to 15.

CPL before the IR, your IR time (FULL JAA IR not conversions) reduced by 5hrs, from 55 to 50.

Multi Engine before your CPL, you will have completed at least 7hrs of your CPL complex a/c time.

Additionally combining your multi rating and your cpl flight test in one reduces 31hrs flight taining to 28hrs (25hrs cpl training & 6hrs multi training minimum =minimum 31hrs training if taken individually, but combine the flight tests reduces flight training costs by 3 hours and combines two seperate flight test fees into one). A final not on this option, you will not be required to do a practice forced landing during your CPL exam due to the fact you are flying a multi engine a/c.



Hope this helps!

[swervin'mervin]

I did the multi/IR first - because i too was fed up with fannying around trying to build hours. The hours on the multi/IR count obviously towards your total time so help if you are short before being able to start the CPL (150hrs). As mentioned the CPL is a doddle after the IR if not scary being made to look out the window again! Yes the IR is hard but i dont reckon the CPL before will put you much further up the ladder than a newbie straight in to IR. Some people take to it, others will struggle, it depends on which one you are?!

Edited to add - also if you want to get the IR issued on the PPL then you can finish your hour building with some decent IR in the book to get the CPL issued after your training is finished.

[topcat450]

Why do then most flight schools (and people) seem to suggest (or do) PPL, 100hrs hours building...CPL...ME/IR in that order?

(I don't mean to sound awkward - but just trying to figure out if I'm missing anything before I embark upon the ME/IR before CPL route)

[chrisbl]

They are in business to make money!

[wobble2plank]

I also did Multi/IR before the CPL, mainly to reduce the instructional hours required for the CPL. My route took me 15 hours IR of which 5 could be in the ground based sim with the multi thrown in with the 10 hours IR!!!!! That was a baptism by fire after not having flown fixed wing for 16 years or so :-) After the M/IR I found the CPL a touch boring, especially having to get into a 'non complex' warrior before being allowed to fly the 'complex' arrow :ugh:

The plain answer is, if you don't want to 'waste time' then go for the IR and then the CPL. You won't regret it, it will enhance your skills for the CPL no end.

Good luck.

(Just wanted to add that I had a heavy helo Multi/IR before starting the training, hence the CAA dispensation for fixed wing training, just before the LASORS guru's start shouting :-) )

[powdermonkey]

Hi,
I just have my 70hrs PIC done and also need the xtra 30hrs to get 100PIC TT.
I have started the multi engine training and once I have done the required min 6 hrs in the plane, providing my instructor thinks I am good enough for a test sign off, I will then do my multi IR. After that, I will combine my multi Ir skills test with a multi engine skills test, giving me 40hrs in the sim and an additional 15hrs min in a twin before I do the handling skills test of the multi.
Most reckon that after 6/7 hours in a twin, it is unlikely that you are proficient enough in aircraft handling to do a good skills test, so by combining the two, you give yourself more time to be comfortable in the multi. After that, the shorte CPL training is much shorter and also in a single engine, much slower etc., should make for an easier flight test. Also, IMHO, I reckon that if you can do a single engine approach/missed approach procedure under the hood, the examiner at his discretion may well decide that a certain part of the class rating will also have been covered, thereby possibly reducing the amount he may want you to demonstrate VFR for the class rating.....makes sense?
Good luck anyway, I know how you feel about doing another 30hrs, I think I'll just chip away at it whilst doing the rest of the training. A few hours here and there going to various airports should keep your planning/nav skills up to date for the CPL, so it is no harm to have a few hours left to do.

Just to confirm is it 10hrs or 15hrs for the CPL after the IR?

[Cactus99]

Powder,

Its 15 hours my friend.

Good luck, :ok:

[powdermonkey]

Thanks Cactus
Couldn't remember which one it was :ugh:
Probably wishfull thinking:{

[Hufty]

I also did the ME and IR before my CPL - you can do the ME course first THEN do the IR training and sit the ME test followed by the IR test. It alows you to have maximum hours on the aeroplane before you sit your ME rating test and gets you into "test mode" prior to your meeting with the man from the CAA. I don't think I would have benefited from having done the CPL first - you can use your hour building to work on your aircraft handling and you don't really do anything in the CPL that you haven't done already on your PPL. It is more important to be in current flying practice before your IR if anything.

I found it great to get the IR out of the way and looked forward to the CPL as a result - I felt that I was more familiar with the VFR stuff and enjoyed being able to look out of the aeroplane for a change.

I too had less PIC time than I needed but after I had completed my CPL, I did some more hour building to get the 100 P1 required for licence issue. I really enjoyed the final few hours as I knew all the difficult stuff was over and I just had to get the rest of the experience boxes ticked - P1 hours, night cross country etc....

I ended up spending the same amount of money though - the CPL course is reduced, but I just decided to fly as many hours as I thought I needed to have a reasonable chance of a first time pass, but you can do it in 15 if you feel like it.


Good luck!