New SAR Aircraft??

[rock_dove]

Just had a look at the Sea King 'crash' thread, which as far as i can see implies that the tail rotor 'fell' off!? If this is the case who or what is responsible and is it not time to consider New SAR aircraft anyway!? Forinstance, would the new Merlin aircraft not be suitable for the UK SAR role? Augusta Westland (predictably!) seem to think so!!

http://www.agustawestland.com/products01_01.asp?id_product=7

[fj1]

Is it not time to consider New SAR aircraft anyway ?

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/HelicopterSearchAndRescueTheNextStage.htm

[Confucius]

I'm sure it would be a very capable £100M+ SAR asset, but at a tenth(?) of the cost perhaps a bigger fleet of C/S/HH-60s (or whatever) would be better.

[rock_dove]

Ok, got me FJ, but with regard to the Merlins suitability for the role, would it be an option, or are there more suitable Aircraft, such as this in use with the US Coastguard (if still in production?)

http://www.uscg.mil/datasheet/images/HH-60.jpg

[NURSE]

I thought the contractor had already decided on the S92

[Wiretensioner]

Yet again the old chestnut. The Blackhawk and its versions for SAR. Just because the septics use it does not mean we have to. Pilots might like it but having flown in the cabin of the Jayhawk and spent several years on the 412 in the Middle East my comment is the cabin is too small and to low. For SAR you need a S-61/S-92/Sea King size cabin that the rearcrew can stand up in and not do there back and knees in trying to bring a stretcher onboard. Also plenty of room to put in all the rescue and medical kit. Even the Super Puma is to cramped with all its kit in and the crew doubled over.

Certainly a new aircraft is needed for SAR. The Sea King is a good cab but its time is coming to an end. Lets get the choice right but forget about the BlackHawk family.

[fj1]

If the fleet remand military, yes Merlin would be suitable (Common fleet etc). However it’s more likely to be a S-92 on G-Plate operated by Bristows

[NURSE]

I'd like to see Merlin in the Role but allegedley the down draft is to much, its to loud, its unreliable oh yes and its not cougar (all the above have been quoted to me by support helcopter pilots as to why we shouldn't have merlin) and according to the Rockapes you can't operate troops out of it because the ramps to steep and is slippery in wet weather.

[rock_dove]

I take it then that the Griffin HAR2 would not be considered for such a role? (please forgive my questioning, I am not Aircrew but I am applying for NCA and find it an interesting subject):8

[SASless]

If one is to dream...why not include the Chinook and the Sea Stallion (CH-53D or E) with AAR capability and plenty of standup room, range, and lift ability.

What value is a SAR aircraft without AAR capability....oh, I forget....no Hercs to do the Fueling part.

[R 21]

Griffin would probably be the cheapest option having the aircraft military run but civilian registered. However it doesn't have the range or the cabin space to be a suitable platform.

I thought all SAR Boys are off to be civies in the near future anyway??

'Fly Friendly' :)

[Melchett01]

Merlin .....its unreliable

Shockingly unreliable. It can only manage ~90% reliability in theatre. The problem is Wastelands/IPT not providing the spares in an efficient manner when they are actually required.

Sort the spares / log chain out and you'll be fine.

[Stratia]

Wiretensioner - you're not the winch-weight who made an interesting Faux Pas during filming for "Jim'll Fix it" by any chance?

By the way, my vote goes to S-92 - Merlin's too bumpy in the hills on a windy day apparently.

[MarkD]

If one is to dream...why not include the Chinook and the Sea Stallion (CH-53D or E) with AAR capability and plenty of standup room, range, and lift ability.

or could get to the front of the line for a new -53K...

[Jackonicko]

Merlin too loud? It's the quietest cab I've ever flown in.

And unreliable? It's been the most reliable asset we've had in Iraq.

It is expensive, and price may well rule it out for UK SAR, but it sounds as though it's the US choice for their CSAR requirement, though politics are likely to result in an MH-47G derivative being procured.

[BossEyed]

Stratia, you advise us that your knowledge of the Merlin is based in "apparent" information.

Is your recommendation for the S-92 based on a similar depth of experience? :ugh:

[Stratia]

Boss-eyed old chap, I used the word "apparently" because that's what the Merlin pilot (also, like me, an experienced sar-boy) told me after flying in the Cairngorms on a windy day - I wasn't there, but I've no reason to doubt him. Now then, back in yer box....

[SARREMF]

Here we go again! Ok, I've bitten.

Griffin - too small and very limited night capability

Sea King - loved it but time to go [and any similar vintage cabs]

HH 60 - I don't think so, thats soooo last century.

53's - that's the century before isn't it? OK OK I like them too but its old ...

Merlin - doing very well from what I hear but ..... not sure you will get a contractor to buy them

S92 - already selected for interim SAR

AW 139 - now your really talking for the close in work [well out to almost the Sea King range actually]

In the last 2 the rear crew can stand up! Now thats a novel idea! They are quiet and can be operated on or off the mil or civ register by whoever wins the follow on contract. Oh, and the military chaps who remain in SAR will be able to fly them - re-read the press releases it only said provision not fully contractorised. Do try to keep up!

[Wizzard]

If the fleet remand military, yes Merlin would be suitable (Common fleet etc). However it’s more likely to be a S-92 on G-Plate operated by Bristows
Almost spot on me old fruit!
But it will be operated by CHC
:)

[212man]

"S-92 on G-Plate operated by Bristows"

That'll be why CHC just got the SAR contract for Stornoway, Sumburgh, Portland and Lee, with S-92s and AW139s! Or why Bristow have just signed for an undisclosed number of S-92s. Time will tell. I hope SKY sort out their avionics by then, though!:confused:

[NURSE]

Merlin too loud? It's the quietest cab I've ever flown in.
And unreliable? It's been the most reliable asset we've had in Iraq.
It is expensive, and price may well rule it out for UK SAR, but it sounds as though it's the US choice for their CSAR requirement, though politics are likely to result in an MH-47G derivative being procured.

Yeap all quotes from RAF support Helicoptor pilots or people involved with support helo Inside the cabin I'm assured by people from 16AA who need to work in the back the quietness of the cabin is a great advantage. I think they were talking about external noise and actually I think its quieter than a chinook or sea king. I think the internal politics within the RAF are the problem the RAF wanted a different toy and got merlin.

[Wiretensioner]

Sorry Stratia, my only faux pas was going onto the Merlin. Strangely enough the posting man was called Jim! However soon saw the light and exited to the civvy world.

SARREMF mentions that you can stand up in the AW-139 - only if you are a midget by all accounts. The guys at Lee and Portland are not particularly impressed with getting it in 08 due to the size of the cabin. It appears to bulk out quickly and lets be honest its only a wheeled 412 on steroids.

Surprised that CRAB has not appeared on this thread yet.

Forward 40, winching out, steady.

[[email protected]]

And, as if by magic, here I am.

I believe that the industry bidders asked SAR H at the beginning of the process if the answer was going to be Merlin because they didn't want to waste a lot of time and effort just to be told by the politicians that regardless of common sense, the only way forward would be to support Wastelands again.

Fortunately the decision to waste a whole heap of money on Super/future/lynx just to keep wastelands order book full will ensure that the bid for the SAR contract will be dictated by industry other than wastelands.

As for the Sea King crash, any helicopter will fall to bits if you smash it into the ground hard enough, especially with drift or yaw - from what I gather, they were very lucky to stay upright.

[vecvechookattack]

I cant help that think that spending a small amount of money on F.Lynx is money wasted.....surely money well spent. The MOD worked long and hard to award that contract and for once we can safely say that F.Lynx will bring VFM.




As for industry asking SAR H if Merlin was the answer..... If you think that is the case then please contact the Serious Fraud Squad.....thats Illegal fella.

[NURSE]

And, as if by magic, here I am.
I believe that the industry bidders asked SAR H at the beginning of the process if the answer was going to be Merlin because they didn't want to waste a lot of time and effort just to be told by the politicians that regardless of common sense, the only way forward would be to support Wastelands again.
Fortunately the decision to waste a whole heap of money on Super/future/lynx just to keep wastelands order book full will ensure that the bid for the SAR contract will be dictated by industry other than wastelands.
As for the Sea King crash, any helicopter will fall to bits if you smash it into the ground hard enough, especially with drift or yaw - from what I gather, they were very lucky to stay upright.

So the Army don't need a laison and recce helicopter with some lift capibility and the Navy don't need a Light ASW/AsurW, Laison helecopter?

[tucumseh]

Given the MoDs track record, I think it's wholly reasonable for a potential bidder to ask if the decision has already been made. Bidders often have to spend many millions answering, meaningless Invitations to Tender. However, an experienced bidder will spot the tell-tale signs, such as vital information being withheld but made available to just one bidder. But, they have to play the game in case they are frozen out of future work.

[[email protected]]

Flynx may well be popular with the RN as it seems to have a good track record on board. However, for Army use it is next to useless as it isn't big enough to do the job that the AAC need ie to provide support for Apache ops. It can't lift enough, it can't get enough troops in the cabin and, since it has no sensors of any kind - it is not a battlefield recce machine either.
The MOD keeps being criticised for not having enough battlefield helicopter lift capability yet the RAF buys Typhoon and the AAC will get Flynx. Meanwhile the Sea King fleet is knackered and can't cope with hot and high ops so we are left with not enough Chinooks and Merlins. But it's OK, Wastelands are propped up again by the UK taxpayer.

PS - liaison not laison

[Confucius]

Given the MoDs track record, I think it's wholly reasonable for a potential bidder to ask if the decision has already been made. Bidders often have to spend many millions answering, meaningless Invitations to Tender. However, an experienced bidder will spot the tell-tale signs, such as vital information being withheld but made available to just one bidder. But, they have to play the game in case they are frozen out of future work.

This happened to a company of which my Uncle-in-law was MD.

[Mr-AEO]

Getting back OT.

Some threads so far seem to be looking at how MOD contracts, does business etc and how this has manifested itself in our other UK Helicopter projects. Let's not forget that the SAR-H programme is joint MOD and UK Coastguard. They will bring another perspective to the party I'm sure.

[South Bound]

I hope they bring something new. It must be a bit dull to spend years generating a 'best-value-for -money-while -meeting-the-requirement' business case, only to have the beanies send it back with 'Buy British' written all over it...

Well, just as long as BAe Systems, Westlands, DARA and Marshalls survive, that is the main thing...

[tucumseh]

Mr-AEO

I’m sure you are right although for some years the MoD and Coastguard have been procuring/supporting/sharing together.

I think the underlying point of any procurement discussions is that, for every penny wasted, the front line suffers a capability loss. A simple example. What is the point 10 members of an IPT spending 9 months preparing a 700 question Invitation to Tender when the answer to 99% of them is either “yes” or “no”; and yes = 1 point and no = 0 points? Everyone knows that every bidder (and there can be 20+) will answer “yes”. 1 “differentiating” question is better than 700 neutral ones. Main culprits? ILS and commercial. So far up themselves they are blind to the nuisance they cause.

[212man]

Bristow recruits James Goodbourn as Development Manager for the SAR Harmonisation Project

Bristow Helicopters is delighted to announce that Jim Goodbourn will be joining their team to secure the recently announced Search and Rescue Harmonisation contract and to develop other search and rescue opportunities.

Jim was the Head of the RAF Search and Rescue Service from 2003 to 2005, responsible for all RAF search and rescue command, operational planning, policy aircrew training and engineering support. He has been a commissioned aircrew officer since 1981 and in his earlier career was a search and rescue and Chinook pilot as well as a joint forces operational planner. Jim joins Bristow from his current role as Head of Media Operations for HM forces.

Bristow already operates four of the twelve search and rescue bases at Lee on Solent, Portland, Sumburgh and Stornoway and has been involved in the delivery of UK search and rescue services since 1982.

Richard Burman, Managing Director of Bristow stated:

“We are delighted that Jim will be joining us as his expertise and experience with the military delivery of search and rescue services will assist us greatly in our desire to extend Bristow’s services across the UK. Bristow will seek to work with the RAF and Navy to ensure that the military search and rescue capability continues to develop, and Jim’s appointment indicates our commitment to this co-operation and a smooth transition to a UK-wide Bristow search and rescue service.”

Jim will report to Allan Blake who leads the Bristow Search and Rescue Harmonisation team.

[Mr-AEO]

:) Tucumseh - I like at your ILS comments:D

I don't have much experience of tendering so can't really comment on that. I was just muting that perhaps, with the UK CG Agency being part of the project, the DIS won't drive the decision on which company will build the aircraft. However, I may being naive on that one!

I was hoping that the answer would come after the question! Rather than the usual, 'The answer is a Westlands Merlin (for example), now go away and make your OA, etc fit' :ugh:

[South Bound]

And that is the problem with UK industry bidding for anything. They bid cheap enough to get the contract then plead poverty and warn of job losses if they don't get 4 times as much once they have won the contract. Wouldn't it be better if we went to ITT saying 'we have this much cash, what can we have?' Might see a real competition then...

[tucumseh]

Mr-AEO

Thanks. In my experience, it certainly is known for the answer to be advised before the tender. (So what’s the point of issuing the tender? Better to be honest with industry). Often, a lengthy, expensive yet fairly conducted and robust tender which produces a clear winner is ignored on political grounds. An “Industrial Impact Paper” is a common cause; perhaps as a result of lobbying by local MPs. (And IIPs are themselves often weighted). Yet I’ve known far more projects delayed for years because of the dogma of competition, when there could only be one winner – usually because of intellectual property rights or deep, long-standing engineering expertise. I inherited one in 1994 which had been frozen for 4 years because the selected contractor didn’t want the contract, on the grounds he didn’t hold IPR and would have to sub-contract 95% of it to the Design Authority/IPR owner – at a huge mark-up to MoD. There had been 7 previous project managers, and there was one file in the cabinet – containing 40+ monthly project plans, each exactly the same only showing one month slippage each time. An example which proves both our points.


Southbound

Not so radical as you may think. MoD do tell industry in advance the ball-park budget. Trouble is that this rarely matches the fair and reasonable cost of the actual requirement. Get budget and cost closer together as early as possible and you avoid a big risk. However, I do realise that very few in DPA actually agree with this opinion, but then I don't agree with their view that wasting money "is of no concern to DPA". We agree to differ!

[[email protected]]

Because the MCA don't have their own helicopter division the only advice they could get about future helicopters was from industry who, not surprisingly, would always recommend their own equipment/company for the job. This is why MOD became involved since the RAF could use ROWETU to asess platforms and any industry bias would be removed.
However, SAR H has to be more precise in its requirements - up 'til now it has maintained a stance of 'we are looking at industry providing a capability not a platform' which sounds very noble but isn't something you can create a bid on as there are too many variables and unknowns.
I know that the next year will be spent in dialogue with industry but eventually some decisions will have to be made about manning and basing which really isn't worth messing with as a. it works and b. it would be expensive and time consuming to alter.
So, despite the grand aspirations, the bid will be about platforms along with training, support and engineering - anything else is fanciful optimism.
Unfortunately, due to the unique way in which we are funded, the MOD will probably delay the actual implementation since we can't afford to pay our part of the bill until after 2012.

[Saint Evil]

Oh my God. The poison dwarf joins bristows. What next, an ex-OC 22 Sqn for CHC(you all know who I mean)

With representation like that the clash of egos should be fun to watch, from a distance - say New Zealand or Mars

[[email protected]]

Maybe he is relying on his incredible popularity in the SARF to help their business case.....oh dear.

[BBJS]

It'll be interesting to see how the poisoned dwarf gets on with the engineers, but if he is sensible he will give them a wide berth.
But knowing the bumptious little t@&t he will no doubt find out in the civil aviation world the hard way; that the engineers will not tolerate his little ways.
Oh to be a fly on the wall, to see him on his ar£e.

[Wiretensioner]

And don't call him 'Little Jimmy'!

Forward 40, Winching out, Steady

[mallardpi]

Oh my God. The poison dwarf joins bristows. What next, an ex-OC 22 Sqn for CHC(you all know who I mean)

Unfortunatley, not all of us do know who you mean. Is the former ex-OC 22 Sqn you refer to an incredibly tall Test pilot? Please say no........

[lurkposition]

Oh yes!

Oh Dear!

[mallardpi]

Oh Dear dear dear indeed

[SARREMF]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[Bismark]

"Jim joins Bristow from his current role as Head of Media Operations for HM forces"

Since when? Methink his CV overstated the truth!

When will the civvy market learn that recruiting ex-RAF will result in an overmanned, over-cost bid - as they (the RAF) just do not understand lean manning and training.

[SARREMF]

Actually, some of us do!

[[email protected]]

Bismark - it is the difference between doing just enough to satisfy the contract and doing the maximum possible with the available resources - one is driven by profit margins, the other by professional pride and many of us here are proud to be that way.

[Jaguar001]

How about getting the Beriev Be 42 from russia and fitting western engines and avionics. According to the following website, http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/a40-01.htm, "The Be-42 SAR aircraft would be able to take 54 survivors of a marine accident and would be equipped with liferafts, powerboats and a range of specialized medical equipment including a transfusion machine, defibrillator and ECG. It would also be equipped with various infrared sensors and a searchlight."

[rock_dove]

Is it April the first today!!!:confused:

[JKnife]

Bismark - it is the difference between doing just enough to satisfy the contract and doing the maximum possible with the available resources - one is driven by profit margins, the other by professional pride and many of us here are proud to be that way.
Crab, oh come on! I do hope you are not inferring that the crews who work on the MCA contracts or for Bond SAR do not have the same professional pride in the work they do? Those in civil SAR have as much professional pride as you and your colleagues.

However, can you really blame a civilian company who is bidding for a SAR contract to not try and attract someone who has had recent experience in the SAR world? You and your colleagues may not like the individual on a personal level, but his recent experience at high levels in MOD SAR will be attractive for a civilian company bidding for the military work.

[212man]

It's a familiar process; they (BHL) took on Edward Taite in preparation for the DHFS bidding process (which they won), then he left. Then they took on Howard Hollingsby (ex Shell) in preparation for the Shell North Sea contract bidding process (which they won), then he left. Thus far it seems to be a winning formula!

If he's as bad as you make out, then it sounds like he and Allan Blake are made for each other;)

[[email protected]]

JKnife - I don't know how you manage to infer any of that drivel from my post - maybe you're just fishing again.

[JKnife]

Crab

Sorry for not making myself clear, however the first paragraph in my reply was in response to your reply to Bismark, but I suspect that what you wrote wasn't really what you meant.

The second paragraph was in response to both Bismark's comment and your reply, which I did not make clear, I accept.

However, the points I made still stand. As for fishing? Never liked the sport!

JKnife

[NURSE]

Flynx may well be popular with the RN as it seems to have a good track record on board. However, for Army use it is next to useless as it isn't big enough to do the job that the AAC need ie to provide support for Apache ops. It can't lift enough, it can't get enough troops in the cabin and, since it has no sensors of any kind - it is not a battlefield recce machine either.
The MOD keeps being criticised for not having enough battlefield helicopter lift capability yet the RAF buys Typhoon and the AAC will get Flynx. Meanwhile the Sea King fleet is knackered and can't cope with hot and high ops so we are left with not enough Chinooks and Merlins. But it's OK, Wastelands are propped up again by the UK taxpayer.
PS - liaison not laison

Interesting as SOHB lists the sensors the current lynx can carry and I'm sure they will be compatable with FLynx. As to lift I seam to remember a brief in the dim and distant past saying lynx was for lifting small teams like Milan or Javelin detachments or OP teams. And that lift of anything over a section strength would go by support helicopter. I agree the AAC lift capability is poor and 212's or 412's should be more widespread however in my opinion battlefield support hele should be part of the army just like the Americans and Australians have.