Battle of the behemoths - A380 vs B787.

[ABIORE]

Despite the real internal politics, in the end it will be the public perception that wins or loses the current Airbus vs Boeing battle of the two Goliaths.
The way it has shaped up so far, Airbus are trailing (in my miserable opinion, because of all the bad publicity they have received in the past 2 or 3 weeks). I fly an Airbus, for the matter of record.
Boeing isn't being seen to put a step out of place lately.
My friend and acquaintancee on a recent flight has taken some small gamble that XXXXX will be the winner.

[BGQ]

I think you might have thsi wrong young fella...... The A380 and B787 will not directly compete. One is a behemoth and the other is RELATIVELY small. I suspect you are confusing the B787 with the B747-800.

18 years old flying an Airbus.... you have done really well and must hold some sort of record. :) :) :)

[ATC Watcher]

My dear Abiore, when you will age up a little you will learn that there are no real losers and winners in this game. I foresee that both the 787 and the 380 will have very good sales in the end and will be a success in their own categories.
But then what is success?
Even when competing in the same categories ( like the A320 and B737 families ) it is a matter of debate in determining who has the better deal , is it pure numbers produced or actual profits made ?

[Wizofoz]

"Success" in the long term would be (at least!!) two major manufacturers being profitable and producing safe, efficient aircraft for the entire industry.

[Andy_S]

The A380 and B787 will not directly compete.
They are certainly very different aircraft, but the comparison is valid insofar as they represent Airbus' and Boeing's respective visions of the future of air travel; one large scale hub to hub, and the other smaller point to point. Perhaps this is the discussion you should be having.

To say it will be "public perception" that decides which (if either) will be the winner is, with respect, rubbish. The fate of the A380 and 787 is in the hands of the airlines who are interested in buying the aircraft, and they will be driven not by public perception but by a combination of local politics and / or whether either model meets their needs.

I've spent the last couple of weeks in Malaysia, where there's been a lot about the Airbus 'crisis' in the local press. MAS is a 380 customer, but are not at all happy about the delays, and it has been reported that there is a body of opinion within the airline which is now actively questioning the wisdom of going ahead with the purchases, the logic being that if they can't even fill a 747 why do they need a 380? From what I've read on PPRuNe and elsewhere, they're not the only outfit reconsidering their position. I've little doubt that the A380 will enter commercial service - too much political and financial capital has been invested in the project to back out now - but with just 159 orders in total and none in the last 12 months, if airlines start cancelling A380 orders then it risks ending up as an expensive white elephant.

As for the 787, is it entirely true to say that Boeing haven't put a step out of place? Wasn't there a failed fuselage test recently? Plenty more time for things to go wrong.

[Groundloop]

They are certainly very different aircraft, but the comparison is valid insofar as they represent Airbus' and Boeing's respective visions of the future of air travel; one large scale hub to hub, and the other smaller point to point.

So what vision does the 747-8 fit then?

[Andy_S]

Groundloop,

I acknowlege and accept your point.

I suppose I was thinking historically, back to a time when Boeing were also considering a superjumbo (even discussed collaborating with Airbus) but decided that there wouldn't be sufficient demand, and that what airlines wanted were more efficient rather than larger aircraft.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 747-8 an attempt to capitalise on Airbus woes? It's not as big as the A380, but it's development will be cheaper and quicker. If (and it's a very big if) airlines do start to abandon the A380, they're unlikely to turn to the 787, but they may be interested in an alternative high capacity airliner. Isn't this why Boeing are offering the 747-8?
They could position it as a 747-400 replacement without abandoning their vision of point to point travel.

[Nom De Guerre]

Forgive my scepticism: 18 years old. Flies an Airbus. Is that with or without a force feedback joystick?
:rolleyes:

Andy S: to those of us in the freight world, the 747-8 is exactly what we asked for. We told Airbus what our requirements were for the A380F, they ignored us. Yes, some package carriers have ordered the -F. Real freight carriers went back to Boeing - at least they listen.

[dc8driver@night]

Forgive my scepticism: 18 years old. Flies an Airbus. Is that with or without a force feedback joystick?
:rolleyes:

Andy S: to those of us in the freight world, the 747-8 is exactly what we asked for. We told Airbus what our requirements were for the A380F, they ignored us. Yes, some package carriers have ordered the -F. Real freight carriers went back to Boeing - at least they listen.


Your right, Airbus didn't listen. I am with one of the US package giants that ordered it. It seems that we ordered it just to appear to keep up with the other one, but really we had other needs including getting out of other Airbus orders. Even as we watch, more and more airports declare that they will not or cannot make the changes to accommodate the A380. At the same time, Boeing is still making the 747-400 and getting ready to transition to the -800 which will still operate into almost any airport that can handle the -400. Also, Boeing has watched as the A380 empty weight has blossomed causing a heavy weight that limits its useful load. This caused then to make great efforts to keep their own weight down and thus relative efficiency up. I road with a check airman from our friendly competitor right after we announced that we were also going to buy the 747-400 and looking into the future model of the 747. He expressed how much they whished that they had ordered the 747 in either the -400 or -800 instead. Just looking at the alternate airport issue was going to be a nightmare and for many routes a deal breaker