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Tempsford
3rd Jul 2006, 21:51
The subject of a National Airliner Collection was discussed briefly in AH&N some weeks ago. I would like the thoughts of those interested in airliners as to where such a collection could be located. Such a museum would be for the airframes that we do have left in collections before they return to their natural state and also for those yet to come (Airbus, etc). I would rather not use this as a resurrection of the BA Cosford Collection discussion as that has been debated at length already.
If I could start the ball rolling....the ideal place would be Filton using what were the Brabazon hangars. Long runway, large apron area and huge hangars. Good road links and the railway runs right past.
Over to you...


Temps

HEATHROW DIRECTOR
4th Jul 2006, 07:18
Who is going to maintain it? Cosford failed... there's a small museum near where I live where some very intersting small aircraft, including an old DH Drover, are rotting away. I would imagine finding a site would not be too difficult but the upkeep would be a major problem.

Good luck with your endeavours.

TwinAisle
4th Jul 2006, 21:07
Filton would be as good a place as any, as would East Fortune. But at the risk of repeating myself, finding the right site would be a case of "cart before the horse" I fear. What we need to have is a debate about what should be preserved - and properly preserved, not just being drained of fluids and left to rot - and what should be turned into beer cans. To quote myself - do we really need three Vulcans? Do we need four Concordes? Or a dozen Spitfires? If resources are scarce, and space is limited, then surely it makes more sense to keep the last remaining, or single significant example, of a type. I would gladly lose all but one of the Concordes if the remaining one is properly preserved, and the remainder of the money and space was used to look after a VC10 (for example).

Museums should tell a clear story, rather than being, as sadly most aviation museums seem, to be a kleptomaniac's scrapyard. No strategy, just "if it has wings, grab it and park it in a field".

The old Department of National Heritage, long since wound up into Prescott's former megalithic department of Culture, Media and Sport, should be called to account as well. It cannot be right for items of such significance to be turned into coke tins and razor blades like this; if the National Gallery decided it was going to bin a Turner because maintaining it was getting to be a drag, fuses would blow (or at least I hope they would) in the Ministry. Why should our technological heritage be any different?

Tempsford
29th Jul 2006, 15:29
Thank you for the two responses. Having just two does in effect symbolise the level of apathy that does exist when it comes to preserving our civil aviation heritage. I have been having a clear out prior to moving house. Amongst the many photographs that have come to light are some of the airliners at Duxford a few years ago (and the airliners that were at Cosford). They looked in quite good condition then, but photos taken not many years later show the slow but steady decline in their condition. I may add that this does not in any way decry the efforts made by the volunteers at Duxford to slow down the deterioration. It won't be too long before another 'Cosford Cull' take place this time at Duxford. Never mind though, we have a nice shiny new hanagar at Cosford containing many aircraft types that have at least one already under cover. Before too long we will have lost the opportunity to preserve a select few aircraft and also to make plans to accept more types in a controlled environmemt as they are retired.
I also see that there are yet more Spitfires about to return to the sky. Why do the preservationists have this fascination with mostly military aircraft? Finally, we must preserve whole airframes and not just the nose sections. Given the choice, I would rather lose the whole aircraft than be left with what equates to a big game hunters trophy.

Temps

Opssys
29th Jul 2006, 17:50
Hi Temps.
My thoughts for what they are worth!
a) A serious amount money is going to be needed to get the project started.
b) A slightly smaller, but still very sigmificant sum is going to be required each year.
Whilst in theory the Lottery could help with a), at best HMG is certainly going to have to stump up almost of b) and some of a).

Until 'Big Brother' dictates what we do with our money there will be more Spitfires and similarly iconic warbirds restored by wealthy individuals and private Collections will tend to try for 'Sexy Airframes; even if they cannot preserve them long term.

So a National collection is going to have to be paid for by the Nation.
Assuming the money is forthcoming:
The objectives of the Collection must be:
1) Conserve an example of each Aircraft which was significant to British Commercial Aviation.
2) To stop collection drift only Aircraft above a certain weight for each era are to be in the collection. This will also allow the other museums to cover Airfamres within their budget and ability.
3) The collection to be divided into British built and foreign built Airframes.
4) A representative sample of engines. Basically showing the development of the piston engine, jet and turboprop engine.
5) Other than Airframes the Collection is to include:
Ground Support Equipment (Tugs, Steps, Hylo's forklifts, GPU's etc) both operational and purely display.
6) Cabin Interior Mock-ups. Showing example of Cabin layouts from each era. These don't have to be complete cabins but sub-sets.
7) Airport Models showing the Development of Airports in the UK by era.
8) Document and Media Archive. This should be staffed not just to sort and store the material for extemal researchers, but be staffed so that over time the collection produce online and printed 'books' and other material.
9) Multi-media Kioks allowing visitors to review more information than just seeing the exhibit allows (so example Full History of an Aircraft Type..
10) A College of Aviation Conservation leading to a degree, or a trade qualification
11) A seperate Aeronautical College (a commercial organisation) which in exchange for low rent provides student time to assist the Collection Staff.
12) Restoration and Replica building workshops. Some important Airframes from the 20's, 30's and 40's just don't exist any more and none are 'sexy enough' to attract individuals sifficiently to pay for a replica. This would be a long term series of projects over a period of 20 odd years.
13) All Exhibits must be able to be Hangared, but as many as possible to be towable for outside display subject to weather.
14) Liveries for Aircraft should be in period and cover as many airlines as possible.
15) The Web Site and Interactive Displays, must be focussed on stimulating interest in Aviation and allow the visitor to 'drill down' to obtain more information on any subkect that takes their 'fancy'

As for Site of such a collection other than the Airfield must be active and be able to allow the largest 747 (and above) Aircraft to Land I don't have any peference.

But without the launch money and a very large annual subsidy all thiis is a 'dried frog pill dream'.

m5dnd
29th Jul 2006, 21:12
Sadly, I think Your answer is contained in this thread :

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30443" (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30443)

Where are the airliners ??. (ignore Concorde!!)

The fact seems to be that Civil aviation is the extremly poor relation to the military. It would be so good to have a National Airliner Collection but sadly the cost would be very likely prohibitive. The size of Airliners is their downfall as the Cosford situation shows. :ugh:

I am involved with the preservation of an airliner collection (Not Duxford!) and see the Mil v Civil debate around Me. I prefer to work on the civil side but help out with mil when needed.

Here's to the future :ok:

M5DND

A and C
29th Jul 2006, 22:32
I was under the impression that the National historic airliner collection was held at Brize Norton and was in flying condition (just!).

Tempsford
29th Jul 2006, 23:35
Thanks for the additional responses. If we at least discuss the subject at this stage, there may be the possibility of moving on to develop a National Civil Aircraft Collection. By the way, the best airshow I have been to at Duxford was the one that included the Civil Airliner Flypast. Another good show included the formation of Rapides. Both were a pleasant change to the Flying Programme.
Aircraft that as yet are not in museums in the UK are A300,A320, B737,B757, B767, BAe 146etc. Whether they be British built or not, all of the a/c mentioned have played a major part in the development of Civil Aviation in the UK and unless plans are put in place to preserve at leat one of each type, it will be an opportunity missed.

Back to the top!

Temps.

chevvron
30th Jul 2006, 14:17
Yes the Drover and all the other a/c at Lasham look to be in a very sad state nowadays; what a great shame Lottery money is all being pinched by the government for its own agenda rather than going to worthwhile causes commemorating our heritage.

Albert Driver
30th Jul 2006, 18:01
British Government --- The post war history of British civil aviation --- Government funding to celebrate the Goverment's failure to support all those brilliant British designs....? Hmmmmm!

Let's get real. The only way we are going to get Taxpayer's money into a National Civil Aircraft Collection is if we can make an existing collection a success and offer the Government a bit of the glory in exchange for some extra cash. We are where we are and we start from here. That means supporting the collections we have and watching while the best-managed ones grow and the badly managed ones die.

In the meantime Cosford has taught us two things. First, the best surviving British civil airliners have to be put under cover (any cover, anywhere, but soon). Second, we have to find a way of improving communication and teamwork between collection managers so that when an exhibit becomes surplus to requirements at one location there is a means of transferring it elsewhere (anywhere, a spare farmer's field, anywhere) until another collection can find the space and raise the funds to look after it. Never again can we afford to see the "Cosford Solution": the JCB Manicure.

It's that last point that's needed right now: a National Civil Aircraft Collection Register and Exchange to list what still survives (nothing difficult there, it's mostly been done) and to put sellers (or JCB lovers) and buyers (well not exactly buyers but "we'll take it off your hands, Guv") together, twist arms and bang heads where necessary to try and get a sensible, long-term viable outcome when exhibits have to move. If anyone really wants to "make a difference" I think that would be the place to start - and it wouldn't be difficult or expensive. It would be a matter of slowly gaining credibility as a centre for the exchange of information and hardware. That's when an attempt to rationalise the whole scene might find a place.

Where to site a Collection? Wherever the dice fall. Inevitably the best locations will come under threat from redevelopment eventually. Brooklands would have been a good choice but now it's been boxed into a corner by developers. Greedy eyes have, it seems, fallen upon Duxford. Even Filton may not be safe in the long term. But does it matter? Most of these aircraft will eventually have their main spars cut for road transportation and once that's happened they are exhibits that can be moved anywhere. The railway preservation movement shuffles its locomotives and rolling stock between railway centres by road all the time. What matters is that an exhibit goes from under one roof to under cover elsewhere.

The most urgent need is for storage cover for aircraft which can't be restored for the time being. That could be anywhere.
Some very large, quite useless covered space...
Did someone say the Millenium Dome? Waterside (BA HQ)? Department of Culture, Media and Sport? Houses of Parliament? Number 10.....

TwinAisle
31st Jul 2006, 11:11
Let's get real. The only way we are going to get Taxpayer's money into a National Civil Aircraft Collection is if we can make an existing collection a success and offer the Government a bit of the glory in exchange for some extra cash. We are where we are and we start from here. That means supporting the collections we have and watching while the best-managed ones grow and the badly managed ones die.


Heartily agree with this. It does boil down to having a strategy on what we should be keeping, and what should go for beer cans. If we choose carefully what we need, perhaps we can get some of the manufacturers, operators, even airports, to chip in a bit, but I can imagine the response you'd get right now from BA if you went to see WW and said "I've got five Vikings, three Tridents and a couple of VC10s and 1-11s that need preserving, get your cheque book out, mate".... He might be more compliant and willing if you could say "this single aircraft is very important, we will have it in your colours, and it will be gleaming and a real advert for you....". Well, he might be....

I'd argue with Temps' view that we should look to take in Boeings, etc etc. Surely it should be up to the Americans to look after their heritage. I would like a Caravelle, but same argument applies, and it was hardly a key aircraft in the UK's story... Let's stick with our great stuff. I would suggest as a starter for ten on what to keep:

One Concorde, last BA colours.
One VC-10 - ideally in BOAC colours.
One 1-11 - Court Line would be fun!
One each - Viking, Viscount, Britannia, Vanguard.
One Trident in BEA colours.
One Comet I, and one Comet 4 (given the historical importance of the beast)
(And a dream - an HP42...)

Not a huge collection really. I am sure others will sagely add to it, but in real terms, how much space would we actually need to get them under cover, with outside parking for nice days? Bet they would all vanish into the AAH at Filton without touching the sides, and there is loads of room out the back. How about it, BAE Systems? ;)

I'd definately go along with the whole aircraft argument. Never saw the point of collecting nose sections, seen one, seen them all really...

TA

HEATHROW DIRECTOR
3rd Aug 2006, 10:38
Can anyone confirm that the Britannia G-AOVF, which was at Cosford, has been destroyed?

treadigraph
3rd Aug 2006, 12:02
Twin Aisle the HP-42 may not be just a dream - Aeroplane reported several years ago that Mike Russell was spearheading a project to build an airworthy HP-42 - it may have been shanghaied by the same nonsense that temporarily grounded Sally B though. Or maybe just too darned expensive to realise. Anyone know if there has been any progress?

TwinAisle
3rd Aug 2006, 12:09
A few minute's Googling reveals

http://www.imperial-airways.com/Hp42_project_information.html

and Treadigraph is proved correct. Last project update was September 2005 though...

Wouldn't that just be a wonderful sight, at Farnborough next to an A340? :D

HD - If that is true, someone ought to be hanged for it. Who just decrees this can happen?? If the National Gallery ripped up a Rembrandt because they needed the wallspace, or because they couldn't afford to regild the frame, there would be a national outcry.

mfaff
3rd Aug 2006, 20:47
HD

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/cosford/collections/aircraft/aircraft_info.cfm?aircraft_id=16

Still there..

Surprised nobody has mentionned the National Airliner Collection at Wroughton, held by the Science Museum...

It is the only civil airliner collection wholly funded by the UK government...(MoF funded by Scottish Government;) )

It may not be as comprehensive as we could wish for..but it is there.