Robinson Helicopter Association formed in Australasia

[robsrich]

Australia, New Zealand and Papua New Guinea now have over 838 Robinson Helicopters.

(PNG number not known at present).

Australia has 404 R22 and 184 R44 out of a total of 1,330 of all types of helicopters.

New Zealand has 150 R22 and 100 R44 out of a total of 654 of all types of helicopters.

As a result of this tremendous growth a regional Robinson Helicopter Association was been formed in Brisbane on 1st July 2006 to support the 90 individual and 238 company Australian owners and the New Zealand individual and company owners TBA, (but about 50% of Australian figures as a guide).

Place your bets when the 1,000th machine is registered in Australasia!

We predict about June 2007 at the present growth dates.

Historical note: To achieve 838 "surviving" machines, you do not need to be a maths star to estimate that well over a 1,000 have already been sold here already.

Good news is that 838 (+PNG) are on the registers. In theory each machine means 1.1 jobs according to government data.

The organisers were encouraged by the success of the Cessna, Piper and Mooney associations who really provide a good facility to exchange technical information, social events, fly-ins and share some good fun, with like minded people.

In particular the RHA hopes to provide a bridge to get those low hour pilots into that middle level area of shortages. Their R & D is well developed, and the insurance industry attitudes may have something to do with this impasse at present. One suggestion being explored; is that the low hour pilot may be able to get an insurance policy to cover "the perceived extra risk he poses” – hopefully time will show that a well supervised pilot is no more of a risk than anyone else, doing those jobs a low pilot should be reasonably asked to do……….but we have to gather the data and confront those who have this attitude coming from World War II.

What do you think?

[RWJackOfAllTrades]

Good to see that someone is finally taking some initiative to look at options for getting low hour pilots up and running with their careers. Its staggering how much misinformation is circultaed regarding ultra high insurance rates and low hour pilots...and after a while, this false information becomes gospel. Afterall, who is safer? The guy with 3000 hrs and a good dose of complacency or the guy with 250 hrs who double checks everything and flies to the book, ensuring extra care and detail is affored to every flight manoeuvre...I think we all know guys and gals of varying experience levels and we can all attest to having differing opinions of how they fly. Whilst experience certainly counts, it is by no means a final, nor ultimate way of determining the safety or skill of a particular pilot. And Rob puts forward a good, and quite valid comment regarding low hour pilots employed on suitable taskings with appropriate supervision. If only more companies took the initiative to take on younger people and train them up over time to become what they need in a staff member.

At some point in the future, the industry will have to assume some responsibility for the training of pilots coming into he industry. It appears as though everyone wants an experienced guy or gal to fly for them, but no one is willing to help out in fostering or nurturing the growth or future captains coming through out of a bare licence. A lot of the time it is too hard or too much effort. At some point, the tides will turn, and pilots will not fall like coconuts from trees and employers will have have to proactive in taking on bare commercial pilots and training them over time to become safe, proficient and above all, professional pilots.

I am personally all for anything that will betters the future of the industry and upcoming generations of pilots, having been there and done it myself the hard way like so many before have.

[topendtorque]

"Australia, New Zealand and Papua New Guinea now have over 838 Robinson Helicopters.

a regional Robinson Helicopter Association was been formed in Brisbane on 1st July 2006 to support the 90 individual and 238 company Australian owners and the New Zealand individual and company owners TBA"

as part of the OZ HAA or separate???

"Their R & D is well developed, low hour pilot may be able to get an insurance policy to cover "the perceived extra risk he poses” – hopefully time will show that a well supervised pilot is no more of a risk than anyone else, doing those jobs a low pilot should be reasonably asked to do"

a few mixed metaphors here, are you saying a separate cover to cover a higher risk or that the low hour pilot will be at 'usual'risk???
a higher risk policy and its extra expense must cruel their chances of ever getting a job surely????

"but we have to gather the data and confront those who have this attitude coming from World War II."

beg yours???

what do I think,
a) first I've heard of it
b) it will be refreshing to see the OZ helicopter industry (which is predominately light helos) represented by an organisation purporting to represent them rather than one which may be pandering to a completely separate area, that of front line defence somehwere in the year 2016 and beyond.
c) how will OZ HAA survive this division seeing as how we hear that it is now struggling
d) anything that helps newbies - understand - survive - be employed - is good - will the R&D accomodate an explanation of the first required attribute, "attitude"??

[robsrich]

The new association will not conflict with the HAA. Not at all.

In fact, history shows the light helicopter pilots; being more junior and usually very nomadic, always tended not to join the HAA, as the issues the HAA were resolving were of little interest to the Robinson drivers at that stage of their aviation career.

The Robbie boys are more interested in learning more about their steed, how to get a better job, be a lot safer and above all have fun!

It is rumoured an HEMS association is being looked at; once again representing the very specialised and small interest group with very specialised equipment such as NVG, etc.

If this is the case, as rumoured, the HAA is then free to work with the regulators on all that important legislation stuff; which if not monitored can break our low profit and underpaid industry. Check out their website.

As to "attitudes" we need to prove that low hour pilots are a risk; and deserve the reputation they have as risky pilots at present.

If they are not (and I suspect this from early studies), then we need to convince the insurers and CASA/CAA NZ that we need to think about the “mental attitudes” that restrict these new graduates. Otherwise we will not have any means of filling the shortages now appearing in the mid-level experienced pilot group, just up the feeding chain.

We gotta build a bridge – we know that – we just gotta find out where this bridge has to go – it will not be easy; but unless we have the guts to confront this problem, and then do something, we will still be whinging, in five years, like we do today; and complaining about all surplus pilots coming in from Europe, Asia and SE Asia. (Ex—military with JAA licences).

Any thoughts?

[Texdoc]

Any thoughts?

Any argument that low hours pilots are a risk, and being one I sure am biased, is lost on me and here are some of the reasons:

Because I am not and...

They tend to fill positions that are fillable by them because of insurance requirements (or lack there of) - a corporate contract will attract requirements that need to be met, so many hours and experience on type. Fair enough! But does that necessarily mean it is now safer. It still simply depends on EXACTLY who the pilot is and how well or how bad they do the job and probably how current they are in whatever emergency procedure they may be unlucky enough to suffer from and/or how much attention they pay to detail, ALL OF THEM or just a few.

Is it not the case that quite a few positions low hour pilots fill are just as, if not more risky than those supposed required high hour pilots positions i.e. Mustering ferries and then mustering itself with less than 300hrs, tourist operations where the turnaround (and perhaps profits) are higher, almost always on piston helicopters (less cost) for the perceived risk , a 500 is easier to fly than a 300 after all, or maybe Tuna boat operations that’s where many go to get hours - It is not that they are risky as much as WHAT IS AT RISK and/or what sort of a job it is, you bet you last dollar a nice cushy job in a turbine flying up and down the coast near a major city, where you are never asked to do more than land every 2 hours for a refuel and the rest is straight and level that the hourly requirements will be in the thousands hmm, but do photographic jobs in a R22 where you are all over the radio in and out of the CTR, GAAP, OCTA,CTR and GAAP again at various heights, slow and sideways at the site then fast as you can to the next and do it all again all trying to make it back home on one tank of fuel and you may only need 200hrs or less MY POINT IS There is no definable consistency to any argument that high hour requirements are ONLY for high risk, high skill environments HOURS HOURS HOURS is the wrong catch cry for aviation, it should be experience (not ALL flying), attitude, skill, ability and training currency - these are not the same thing HOURS HOURS HOURS.

The only real solution I can see for a consistent pool of skilled pilots to fill any alledged upcoming shortages is a type of cadetship/apprenticeship where a low hour pilot is brought in trained and mentored through this process till they are doing the BIG jobs so to speak.

Now all I have to do is overcome this feeling of impending doom that having said all this I should be looking for a new career. Maybe I would except for the fact that a well respected multi thousand hour Ex Mil, Viet Vet, CIR, NVFR, ME, Sling/LL , EMS Captain I had a deep and meaningful with said to me "Hours? It's got nothing to do with hours, it is what you have done with them and how you did it that count. Not how many."

I'd say 8 out of 10 high hour pilots who are not ex mil that I asked how they got there first start said "I got lucky" "Right place right time" etc never "well I am a safe conscientious pilot who had good training background and references and life experience and was picked up because of that." The other 2 said they worked there butts off getting there hours up themselves. So odds are even if you work your but off getting the hours up yourself someone else will "get lucky being in the right place at the right time." Hey thats a lot like life! :hmm:

WHEW Time to lay down for a while :zzz: :E

[RWJackOfAllTrades]

Bravo to the post above!

[robsrich]

Well said also!

That is why we need to get a focus on that bit of the industry which has this problem - mainly the Robbie people.

So let’s roll up our sleeves and get into it!

The FW guys over the past decades have had to bite the bullet as airlines went from feast to famine.

Ya ain't got anything to lose - except the grumbling...

[500]

Texdoc,
What a bloody good post:ok:

Robsrich,
I don't know what it is you smoke, inject or swallow.... but I gota get some. It must be great being able to justify such dribble! :mad:

[robsrich]

500

What do you propose we do?

Nothing?

De-dribblize us all with your ideas.

[500]

Well Mr Rich, what exactly have you done? Given us a few figures that don’t mean s#*t to the average pilot/operator. Oh and you've given insurance companies the stupid notion that because someone has done your safety course there less of a risk. What a load of crap. The only thing it does is make Robsrich !:ugh:

[robsrich]

500

I ask again - what would you do to make our industry a better place.

[500]

Well I'd ask you to leave !!:)

[robsrich]

Well said!

Lets swap medications?.

[500]

Just as I thought. You are taking something !:ugh:

[GAGS]

Rob (can i call you Rob?)
Firstly let me say I am all for getting low hour pilots a job, we all had low hours once.
Can you explain the following to me?

You are consistently selling the helicopter game as a land of opportunity for all, new machines are being sold etc. What percentage of these helicopters are sold to private owners who fly themselves or employ one pilot on a casual basis to fly them around thus not really creating vacancies anywhere.

You say that the large percentage of accidents happen to higher time pilots (more than 1000 hrs).What is the percentage of high time vs low time pilots?
I mean surely there are more pilots with 1000 hrs plus, so Ok they may have more accidents but what is the percentage when the two are compared. Does the accident rate per pilot or hour flown decrease with experience I would think so?

I read a letter in your magazine a while ago by a wanna be pilot who was bitching that he wasn’t happy as he didn’t have a job. He said something along the lines of “as he was a manager of some retail shop b4 he should get a management job at a helicopter company so he can build his hours’. Now Rob I don’t know you, but when was the last time you interviewed a low hour pilot for a job and he had the “I‘ve spent $45k now the industry should take me and all my experience and give me the job I deserve” attitude. Did you tell him A. his attitude sucked and to go away, or B. sorry mate the insurance company/client has minimums which you don’t satisfy.( I mean the appropriate response is go back to Maccas!)

I know of quite a few pilots who have gotten jobs with well under the minimums. If newbie impress's the prospective boss enough he will pay the money to get newbie named on the policy or put it to the client and newbie is on the way with some restrictions initially of course.
The way to do this is to slave I know in today’s environment that this is a bad word but I am not sure of another one. Newbie fronts up to an employer and impress's him with the tie and shiny shoes and expects that he will get the keys to the R22 R44 or 206 or whatever. No experience that the boss can look at so it's all attitude and if newbie does the thing in the interview the boss will say come and hang around so we can look at you, if newbie impress's he gets the keys. Newbie ferries with the senior pilots (the senior pilots will always tell the boss how newbie went) But if it takes too long there is a reason for this either newbie you are unit or the boss has lied! Move on and you still have no experience then its back to the broom or getting the engineers lunch and answering the phone. Eventually you will land work. This system has worked for a while.

Rob would you let some L plater jump into your $40 000 holden or ford and go for drive without knowing them first? I suspect not.
You talk about the World War 2 attitude. These guys with this attitude all got jobs without your new association and you will probably know the figures but I think that back in the day here was a lot less machines than there is today.
Rob you are champion for looking after the low hour pilot and I applaud you, but leave Alice in wonderland mate and come back and encourage the low timers that the jobs are there but it will take time to get the first one.
Bottom line: YOU DON’T NEED TO ENCOURAGE THE INSURANCE COMPANIES IF THE CANDIDATE IS THE RIGHT GUY/GIRL FOR THE VACANCY THEY WILL GET THE JOB.IF THE COMPANY WANTS/NEEDS THEM!

Texdoc: if you don’t have a job there is one coming for you. Well said mate!

[RWJackOfAllTrades]

500...not the most constructive post to be placed on PPRUNE, though you are entitled to say what you want I guess. Even though we can really do without this sort of childish jibberish that really takes the 'professional' out of 'professional pilot rumour network', go ahead and dribble...be cynical and have an anonymous dig at someone. At least Robsrich has put forward his real name (unlike most) and he is out trying to help others, rather than be like far too many in the industry on this website who seem quite content to sit on the sideline, throw rocks and criticism from afar and whinge frequently and consistently about almost everything. Well done champ! You are an inspiration to us all. Keep up the good work.

Now...for whatever reason that Robsrich has started this new association, its a start at helping to clear up some misconceptions that have long been circulating and helping to limit what upcoming pilots can, and mostly cannot do, once they have finished a licence (500 - what have you done to help people get into the industry...just curious???). No one forces anyone to do safety courses on that note. I have not done this Robbie Safety Course, but having worked on fires, ems/sar, charter, remote area work, long lining and other specialised operations, safety training is never wasted and always helps us in some way to live and fly another day...whatever the cost, I'm alive today cause I paid some dollars or my company did in order to make me smarter and hopefully safer. Unlike you 500, I never knew everything and always welcome some input from others that will help keep me here just a bit longer. As for people getting rich out of it, we all have to make a living somehow - how do you make yours?

Whether people agree or disagree with the figures and opinions of Robsrich, at least someone is out there looking at the industry and doing some R&D and trying to better it in some way. From someone who has worked in the industry for near on 10 years in various capacities, it is known that a skills shortage is apparent in the mid-experience ranks for helicopter drivers. How long before that filters down to the low-experience level drivers and all of a sudden, we find outselves reacting in desperation to just get guys into seats to fly. What about being proactive and taking positive steps to avoid such shortfalls? Rather than just letting things happen and then managing a crisis.

I've personally experience working with companies who think pilots just magically appear and months down the track they are still waiting to fill spots. As said before, I am all for what Robsrich is doing, if it indeed will help to educate the insurance sector, employers and pilots of all experience levels as to what is fact and what is fiction.

PS Robsrich, I wouldn't even reply to any further posts from 500, as you'd be justifying the existance of someone who should probably be paying for their oxgyen!!! (thief)

[500]

RWjackofALLTrades.

Glad your thinking of me. Chump:mad:

[robsrich]

GAGS

A great point of view and spot on. You are 100% on track.

All we are doing is trying to get the low hour guys into a job earlier than later. One way is to expose a very outdated concept that low hour pilots are a greater risk than the old farts; and therefore should not be employed.

My view is that a low hour well supervised guy, given easier tasks at first, under the watchful eye on a mentor, will not be the risk that "old hands" think they are.

As for a pie in the sky .... do your home work on all the websites, look at the ages of pilot groups in each country and purchases of new equipment.

Just as an aside 65% of the 12,000 aeroplanes on the CASA register are privately owned.

The chopper industry is very the opposite, most are working machines. In recent years private ownership has appeared to jump markedly; however, closer examination shows these “private” machines are mustering on their own properties, and flying heaps of hours. Of course they employ pilots. I do not have the figures at the moment.

If people say this is nonsense, and most do - then grab a coffee (beer) and ponder the current situation with our engineers????

In my state where I live, we were stunned by country towns importing large numbers of SE Asian motor mechanics under an agreement with the government; they do their three years in the town, qualify in our system and can then apply for residency. Aussie motor mechanics are in short supply – as are skilled people in most industries.

Rather than await a crisis, why not get a mob of us together and nut out ways to change the present culture which is now not going to fit the future without a bit of pushing and shoving.

What are your thoughts…

[robsrich]

RWjackofALLTrades.

Thanks for the advice re 500.

I was going to tell him that the medication I was going to take was a bottle of Viagra - then I can be a bigger pr....ck than him.

500 really must take his anti-what evers.....

[BSurawski]

Great to hear people are talking about these issues. I recently joined the HAA hoping that at least been a member I may make a difference in the industry. There may be alot of old politics here but nothing will change if people don't put their hand up and have a go. The majority of the industry have more to offer than been a pilot. Some people have been in the marketing game, IT police and military to name a few and your other skills could be put to good use in these groups HAA or Robbie. These groups need to offer the members back something to be able to grow. Please if I can ever help, PM me and I can only try.

BJ

[topendtorque]

“is that the low hour pilot may be able to get an insurance policy to cover "the perceived extra risk he poses”

“As to "attitudes" we need to prove that low hour pilots are a risk; and deserve the reputation they have as risky pilots at present.”

“One way is to expose a very outdated concept that low hour pilots are a greater risk than the old farts;”

I for one am having trouble understand the three above Robsrich conflicting quotes.

Maybe 500 is also reacting to some of the badly managed articulation of Rob’s prime motives.

Texdoc was brilliant and of course I have been singing of CAGS’ hymn sheet for quite a while and as he points out it is not a tune that Rob knows.

There is another issue here that of welcoming in the other interested people whether they fly R22’s, are part of AAAA, HEMS, the upper crust of HAA, or even the suggested Mustering group. It’s no use complaining about a lack of engineers when there is no-one to give the time of day to one who may be interested in becoming one.

Go to a stateside HAA convention and one cannot help but notice the hospitality, the sense of ‘ownership’ of the concept of ‘being interested’.

Why do we need another organisation, did our HAA fail in this regard?

Rob you were an integral part of OZ HAA why is this so?

The following quote of yours highlights my point.-

“In fact, history shows the light helicopter pilots; being more junior and usually very nomadic, always tended not to join the HAA, as the issues the HAA were resolving were of little interest to the Robinson drivers at that stage of their aviation career.”

The BSURAWSKI post is symbolic of one who is reaching out, where does he go Rob?

[robsrich]

Topendtorque

Glad to see you are onto this case – welcome!

In reply: If the insurance industry and regulator have evidence that a low hour pilot is a greater risk and if this is correct, then we must accept the facts and get on with life. Maybe we could look at why this is so? Some factors could be too low a licence standard, outdated training syllabus, poor instruction, inexperienced chief pilots and maybe a client culture which expects too much of man and machine.

But they have to prove this to us in 2006!

However, if the research shows (and it is beginning to drift this way) that low hour pilots are not the risk we think they are; then we need to remove the unnecessary barriers along their path. This means changing the culture of those in the upper levels of feeding chain of our industry. Being human beings, this will take time.

In the meantime if an insurance product was available, at a reasonable cost, to the low hour pilot, to cover the current “perception” of the low hour pilot being a greater risk than he is (at present) then this may help at least to build a bridge across the barrier mentioned above.

Hopefully, our R&D will prove this old concept one way or the other, then at least we are another step forward.

Point is: unless someone goes out and seeks out the real facts; then this post will still be running in seven years from now when the industry has once again doubled in size, and the junior pilots will be grumbling about refuelling diesel powered helicopters and getting their good shoes “oiled up”.

Yes, the HAI Heli-Expo events are great. Of the world’s 20,000 civilian helicopters, 12,500 are in the USA. We have a healthy 1,330, now being about sixth in the world in ownership. But as you can see, the US has ten times more machines than us – let alone their military fleet which probably nudges the civilian figures. Thus the HAI does a great job for 295M Americans.

The OZ HAA, since the mid seventies have run numerous conferences and trade shows to cater for industry needs at the time; these were subject to the national economy's health. There were gloomy times, holding back our development; but the past 14 years has shown a steady growth at twice the GDP and as a result of this the helicopter 7-8% annual growth has meant the fleet has doubled in eleven years and will probably do the so in the next seven years.

I was involved with the OZ HAA until early this year when I retired. The new executive has changed direction and completely restrucured the organisation (as is their right in accordance with members' wishes). You can see their progress in trade journals such as Heli-News and their website.

GAGS: To answer you question about ratio about private ownership and jobs. This is hard to quantify; however, if you study the data bases from CASA and CAA NZ you will note that two extra helicopters appear on the Australian register and one on the NZ equivalent each week.

Jobs? As best as I can cross match with the licensing system each new airframe requires 1.1 paid pilots.

I am not suggesting that we are in a wonderland, as some have eluded, all I am saying is that we had rough times about two decades ago; however, today the growth is fact – see the registers. What we are on about is managing growth – that buz word one hears in the business community.

If anyone can cross check the data and come to a negative conclusion (as some are wanting); then please tell us.

[Bell Man]

Good on you rodsrich, I believe you are trying to doing a positive thing for low time pilots. I am a very low time CPL(H) and high time F/W pilot. Even though I'm looking for work as a low time helicopter pilot, I must point out that in my view, there are jobs out there for low timers, the only problem that I'm going to have is the pay drop. When I started out in the early 90's as a low hour F/W pilot up north, most operators wouldn't even give me the time of the day, let alone some words of wisdom. Every helicopter operator I have spoken to over the phone has had a lot of positive things to say. One problem some low timers have, is they don't know how to market themselves to perspective employers, a bit of salesmanship can go a long way ! :ok:

[CYHeli]

I was sweeping hangar floors on a casual basis whilst still working full time in the Police Force. I watched a number of other pilots come, sweep and then go into full time work. When I asked the boss (Company MD/CEO) why I wasn't getting a job, he told me I didn't have enough skills. I asked what he meant. He stated that all of us were qualified pilots with similar hours, so he looks at the other skills people possess. Like what? I ask. He says, Like office skills, phone skills, people skills, that sort of thing.
I gave up at that point. I have a heavy truck licence, a transport dangerous goods licence (having driven fuel trucks) phone and office skills from the police force, ability to met people and make cold contacts, he knew all of those things and still gave younger guys a go.
Some times they just don't want you, so you go somewhere else and sweep another floor.
Good luck Rob, but unless the 'old boy' network is going to kick in, why would someone get a job, just because they join a club? Sorry Association.:( The current HAA should be driving this barrow!
Remember the email you received that went into your last heli news about prostitution? That's the biggest attitude the industry should change, and that's the attitude of the bosses who exploit pilots. We don't need a new association, we need a union. To protect any and every working pilot.

[robsrich]

CYHeli

Sorry you have had such a bad experience - no doubt like many others.

I like your suggestion about a union; which will never happen; but needed. Today it would not fly. IR laws and all that.

However, maybe the HAA could take the unemployed pilots under their wing. Oddly enough the AFAP are the custodians of the helicopter pilots' award. This could be monitored by the HAA as the conditions of the award dove tail into aircrew further up the feeding chain.

Maybe the RHA could focus on flying techniques, technical feedback, relook at pranges with a lessons, etc. Social activites.

But still work on the risk management perception of junior pilots. That is too advanced to give away at this time.

What do you think - is there a better way?

[BSurawski]

Topend I am not reaching out,I would just like to help out in making our lifestyle even better. I am one of the lucky ones have got good hrs now and get paid well for what I do. If more people were paid properly the hrly rate would certainly go up slightly....I would imagine and not so much undercutting would occur.
Yes the HAA needs to have more of a voice a better web site and all that.
I was told when I first started ringing around doing some research into flying that You dont want to be a pilot NO money few jobs..That day before I started my license I organised a job. Why did a pilot tell me this and hypercritically he was still working as a pilot. Many pilots however did have good words to say and now if someone comes into work and asks about learning I will tell them what I learnt and spend some time with them if Im not needed anywhere else.
The associations may be able to help new pilots network etc. and tell the pilots not to turn up with thongs shorts and resume in hand, you don't do that at any other job first impressions count. Common sense I thought but happens all the time. Anyway everything takes time it wont happen overnight.

Rob is there any charge to joining, what are the benefits you percieve to achieve in the future?

Please dont correct spelling we are not all english scholars:ok:

[Texdoc]

I did a little bit of research (emphasis on little) on 50 Helicopter accidents in Australia and a few from NZ (46 AUS and 4 NZ) that are available on the ATSB or CAA NZ web sites.
I am the first to argue that the numbers game can be played well anyway you want to push your point of view and also in respect of data (lack of) that is beyond the scope of my quasi/pseudo/semi statistical analysis :8 . My main focus was on Hours. Some accidents were also excluded because of lack of data on hours flown and it does not take into account number of pilots who are flying within each respective hourly data set, type of airwork or geography i.e. there seems to be a higher incidence of low hour pilot accidents in NZ than Aus. Is this because lower hour pilots fly commercially more over there?
In any case here is what I came up with – which is little more than bush statistics with some arbitrary editing to get some form of consistency to the data…..
Of the 50 accidents I looked at (I needed the extra 4 from NZ to make up the 50 for ease of calculations :} ) pilots total hours flown were
20% were 0-500hrs
20% were 500-1000hrs
6% were 1000-1500hrs
2% were 1500-2000hrs
52% were 2000+hrs
Of these one MAY (according to me) contribute Pilot error as the main cause in this respect (includes wire strikes and CFIT but not Mech Failure)
80% of 0-500hrs (remainder was Mech Failure)
80% of 500-1000hrs (remainder was Mech Failure)
66.6 of 1000-1500hrs (remainder was Mech Failure)
100% of 1500-2000hrs
62% of 2000+hrs (remainder was mainly Mech Failure)
Of the 50:
48% were either a Wire Strike or CFIT (1 wire strike was AFTER a Mechanical Failure and the wire strike actaully looks like it saved those on board i.e arrested the AC before impact)
30% were Mech failure (includes the Mech Failure then wire strike as above)
6% training accidents (AND Includes at least 1 catostrophic mechanical failure i.e not pilot error)
16% other causes
Of the 50:
34% were Turbine AC with only 2% of these being flown by Pilots with less than 2000+hrs
What’s it all mean? Beats me, I am an aspiring Helicopter Pilot not a bloody mathematician :8 :E

[johnfly1958]

what next – I am a 13, 000 hour Accident FREE – R22 pilot who has had to sit through my fair share of Rob Richs drivel at his so called insurance required safety courses. Rob how many hours do you have in an R22, do you even have a rating what accidents have you had. How any hours in an R22 ? When was the last time you even held a pilots licence. Oh and to the posts that say what a great guy Rob is by putting his name in his posts– don’t' worry - we could tell its him by his long boring bloody self proclaiming rot – exactly like his courses.
An association for young pilots – give me a break – before you young blokes sign up and get your wallets out to feather this leeches pockets give companies like helimuster, NAH, and a few more real good operators a call. They employ young pilots and know the game better than you ever would. Being a member of this association would hinder you by association with this guy who has made up a new way to screw us pilots in the bush.
Your courses are NOT required by insurance companies – now owning my own and going out to get insurance its just a money making exercise for you Rob- you fly into town, stay in your fancy hotels and carry on about your military days – who cares.

What does heliflite in Sydney think- they are the biggest sellers of R22's and run the only quality Robinson safety course that is run by a guy who knows what he is talking about and has 18,000 hours of which half are in R22. Tim Tucker is fantastic and I attended his course this year after purchasing my own R22.
Interestingly enough it appears all of Rob Richs notes are a direct copy of Tim's course material that apparently Rob attended once. What a bludger.

Rob have you ever had to get a job as a low time pilot or employed a low time pilot – aren’t you military pilot who got a job straight from military with some ex military mates.
I cannot imagine Robinson being very happy about your so called Rob's 22 Association.
Rob you are condescending to us bush pilots, you give poor unwarranted criticism and advice, wrong assessments of accidents and have never in your whole career ever put in an 8-9 hour day mustering in hot dusty conditions. After 13,000 hours in an R22 accident free I should know. welcome to our world.
If anyone signs up for this bloody joke of an association they have been forewarned.
Low time guys -he can't get you a job- he is not respected by anyone in the bush.Im with you 500 - Rob should leave

[pohm1]

So.................... does that mean you're for it or against it? ;)

[bellfest]

Maybe there is a good opening for someone who has a lot of industry experience to head an association sponsored by all the companies themselves. After all it is about time the industry took these issues into it's own hands as they are the ones that will ultimately be dealing with the effects. There are lots of good men I could think of to fill a role like this. There is a lot of good input and ideas that could be contributed by industry players that would create an association that could be hugely beneficial to the wannabe pilots, the low houred pilots and the operators. It would be a great catalyst to create the industry policy and operational cooperation that has been talked about for many years. The money that operators outlay for currency checks etc. would instead be outlayed to financing an association that could not only cooperatively do the checks but have many other benefits as well. Killing two birds with one stone so to speak.
Certainly food for thought:ok:

[robsrich]

I agree.

I nominate JohnFly1958 for President, with that energy displayed here he should do well.

He certainly has a good handle on things!

I think I will take a Bex and have a lie down.......

[500]

I'll second johnfly1958 as president. He does have a handle on things unlike you Mr. Rich
You can’t stand up and address the criticism against you which seems strange to me, is it all justified?
I think so but of course I am bias as I think you’re a fool with no real grasp on reality!
Why should we all follow you down the path to la la land with blinkered optimism?
What are your credentials?
Like johnfly1958 alluded to, you have never done a days mustering or even a days work in the rural areas of Australia apart from flying to or from one. So how can you tell people in a section of the industry how there supposed to be doing things when you don’t understand it yourself? And don’t give me some dribble about how we can all come together hold hands and work it out.

You had the golden opportunity to listen to a room full of experienced people at one of your pathetic courses up north. You chose to just blow your own trumpet and didn't really give a stuff about the people who came along to your paid holiday.
Your name was mud before you came but was SH#T by the time you left. A couple of very unhappy companies and about 30 pissed off pilots was all you managed to leave behind.

So come on Mr. Rich put up or shut up:mad: :ugh:

[robsrich]

500

The moderator; Heliport, often comments on the problems that people have when using their identifiable Personal Titles. This means we have to take a thumping from those who wish to do so from behind their anonymous “handles”.

For that reason, I usually keep to facts and pass on things I think may be of interest. To some people facts are boring; and they seek a chance to take out their frustration and anger on anyone who looks the slightest as a “tall poppy” – an Australian tradition. You guys do it well!

I accept the fact you are on a weed eradication programme here and consider people like myself as “tall weeds”, despite what we try and do for the industry.

In this forum I have two factors working against me.

Firstly, as a CASA Examiner of Airmen, during the 1980’s, we were all under extreme pressure as there were no ATO’s at that time. They came later, and do a good job! As a result, like my peers, we did a lot of flight tests – my log book shows 620 over about six years; of which 500+ were in Robinsons. Also I did about 170 Ops Inspections, most of which were mustering organizations. From this time I no doubt made a lot of people unhappy, and they would not send me a Christmas card. But someone has to do the job, thankless as it is……

Secondly, many know of my stand against wide spread cheating in the maintenance releases – under recording of flight hours; and along with this I am opposed to those sleaze bags who do mustering – privately, cutting out the legitimate operators by undercharging, and not having a CASA license to do so……This has got me “almost death” threats, and one acquaintance with similar views had to leave the industry under police protection. No one seems to put under recording with the blade failures, etc, etc.

The course you mention, (and there were many others), started when a pilot told the group that CASA was not able to get into his invoices, and he could do what he wanted. He only recorded about one in three of the hours he actually flew to save on maintenance costs. This was said in a public forum!

In reply, I explained the powers CASA and ATSB have, and that if you are cheating, then the odds were you will be caught – especially in an accident when the insurance company walks away and CASA walks in – with handcuffs! To my surprise the group seemed to support his point of view, which has puzzled me to this day.

Later when asking simple questions such as what is best range speed in your trusty R22, I got 30 different answers from the group. Ranging from 30 kts (stay up longer) to 90 kts (get their quicker).

The course went down hill after that –

[500]

Once again you excel yourself in talking rubbish and lying.

You may have done 620 flight tests of which 500+ were in Robinsons but that doesn't mean you have any experience at flying the thing, especially in difficult conditions. And it sure as hell doesn't give you any insight into what happens after that pilot you tested gets out there in the industry, working towards that lucky opportunity. You have never had to do it, so your opinion is worthless when it comes to advising other people how to do it.
Going in to audit a company is one thing. Knowing how that company and its pilots/staff got there is another

Maybe you are miss guided in your rhetoric. With your vast knowledge and experience of CASA, you should be giving advice to prospective CASA employees. You could tell them how rosy the industry is and how there all going to be sitting in bigger better newer offices and flying around the country in brand new jets, each having one of there own. Or maybe they have seen all the bull**** come and go and are just waiting for you to go.

The course I mentioned DID NOT have any pilot tell everyone he could do what he wanted. LIAR. I have never seen ayone conduct a course in such a poor manner. At times you were so void of realistic views and information it was sickening. It was like having John Howard give a course on concreting! You were just there to bang your drum and thought you were on some higher plane than every one else. This is reflected by your pathetic accusations that you got thirty different answers to a simple question. What about when the group explained to you that over pitching was one of the biggest causes of accidents. You wouldn't accept that and proceeded to tell everyone that the biggest danger we had was turning down wind before 300 ft. Once again, obviously you know better than a group of people with approx 150 000 flying hours! The course went down hill when you introduced yourself.
You only re affirm that you are an incompetent fool and out and out LIAR.

The only person who thinks you’re a tall poppy/weed is you. :ugh:

[robsrich]

500

You really are carrying a grude?

If you don't believe the stats, go to ATSB website and get the latest 5 1/2 year report.

Today, tail rotor strikes are bringing us down..........PM and I will send you a copy - don't put your name, just an address at a neutral place.

Bit like ordering sex toys??

Anyhow, we both must get back to work, I will wreck my world and you wreck yours......

To all those that contributed, thanks, this will be my last post - stop cheering 500!

No harm intended - check out the CASA and CAA NZ websites for data, it will help the younger fellows know more about their industry.

OH finally I used Tim's slides at Frank's request because they wanted the success of their products to be noted, and how the problems they had were to solved along he way. They were very professional about it all.

Today the R22 is the safest light helo you can crash in - another ATSB report recently released!

Happy flying......

[RWJackOfAllTrades]

Well...certainly a very intesting post with alot of facts and figures and opinions on various facets of getting started in flying and people's general abilities etc etc. The only saddening thing is seeing how people within the industry can get personal and childish in their attacks on people. Whether or not you agree with someone, or dislike then in an extreme sense, try and keep it semi-professional. There are sections here in this post that read like a teenagers chat room with people trading insults left, right and centre. And people wonder why so many within the industry choose to stay away from this site fullstop. I wonder why after reading this post?

[McGowan]

Gentlemen,
It is my first look at this thread, and ooooh, a touchy subject to say the least.
The Company I work for now and in fact most of the Companies I have worked for in the past have not really had the financial ability to support a low hour pilot while he is gaining his legs so to speak.
There are a number of reasons I can think of off the top of my head.
Not all jobs that come in are suited to the low hour bloke, so the more experienced pilot does the flying, the low hour bloke stays in the hanger, pissed off because he thinks he should be able to give it a go.
An easy job comes in and the low hour bloke does it leaving the other bloke in the hanger pissed off because he thinks he sould be able to do an easy one when they come along.
After a while the two pilots hate each other and at the friday afternoon drinky pops they end up in a fight.
This doesn't happen every time, but when there are only enough hours coming in the keep one pilot happy, most Chief Pilots/Companies, me included, will go for someone with a proven track record.
You hire the pilot you want, hours DO count, depending on the job, but the most important thing is you don't hire someone who is a meat head. You get some one who fits in, who you feel you can trust, both with your $2-3 million aircraft and with the $1,000 company ute.
As some one has said, slaving is not the way to go, but a low hour pilot needs a way to get a foot in the door and I think it happens to those who make an effort. There is usually some luck, but only because the bloke put himself into a position to use the "luck". Most pilots working today will say that there was a lot of luck involved in getting the first job, "lucky I was there when it came up". Mostly they were only lucky because they made the effort to be there when the job came up.

[LABBS]

Hi McGowan, I have 12,000 Hrs command time in a holden HR ute, how about a start big fella!:eek:

[McGowan]

LABBS,
Soon as I get the HR registered again and a 100 hourly done, (only the best for my pilots) I'll give you a yell. I won't be able to do anything about the tyres, don't want the value to go over the grand.................

[topendtorque]

they made the effort to be there when the job came up.

YES

"HR ute?"

That's a bit upmarket!

[McGowan]

Top end,
Up market nothing, everybody seems to know that I now work for a mob that isn't short of funds.
I now fly a flash bit of kit, rub shoulders with people in the know, wear shiney shoes and a shirt with more than 3 buttons. The wife has to do up most of them, but I still look the part. I even only have to wash my hands AFTER going wee wee.:E
As far as the HR is concerned, and I didn't want to mention this to LABBS in case it put him off the idea of a job, but not having a windscreen in it, you can't actually go anywhere at the speed of light. So when he is off getting the lunches, it could take a while.
On the other subject, as has been said, "luck" is involved, but you have to make your own luck a lot of the time. For the low hour pilot, they have done the easy part in getting the licence, they have had the hand in the pocket for it so there will be flying as long as they can affort it. Once they have the licence in their hot little hand, they need to get the flying for free or be paid for it. Again, "slaving" is not the way to go. If a person wants to work in the hanger to be around helicopters and be available to fly if needed, great, but if the boss can't or will not pay, find somewhere else. Anyway, I don't see any easy way to do it, especially when the work is so hard to get now.

[topendtorque]

McGowan
yes, nothing travels faster than the company runabout for sure, I would counsel in favor of a windscreen (i wont tell Mr. Labbs) as they can be handy if one wishes to observe a subjects capacity to clean things!

Slaving a few years back got a lot of people on the road, whether they made it or not with that particular company. Scratching those that didn't was hard work but they got lots more than those who didn't even get the privilege of getting to know the local hanger broom, no pun intended.

Slaving has, as you suggest, been massacred way too much in recent times and I think more by plank operators than us, certainly you get much more out of a candidate by keeping him/her on a learning curve rather than the phone/broom.
Like fattening a bullock, every starvation event contributes to lower quality beef at the end of the day.

I think the underlying merits of the thread are very whorthwhile for the purpose of communicating amongst learners and that includes everyone, there are very few places where people can get to listen/learn nowadays.

I agree strongly with your Ouch! comment.

I have finally received in the mail, my invitation to join, but don't feel disposed that way at the moment. I thought Bellfest summed it up very well!
TET