Argentina renews claim to our beloved Falkland Islands

[Navaleye]

Here. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/06/30/wfalk30.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/06/30/ixnews.html)

Might be a prudent move to up the garrison size and perhaps a few more F3s. Presumably land based radar should be able to spot incoming Arg a/c on take off so early warning should not be a problem. HMS Liverpool is FIGS at the moment.

[Daede1]

This is only kicking off because Falklands Oil and Gas have finally secured a drilling rig, and can now start actually pumping the black stuff out of the ground around the islands.
That and the fact that Argentina is still in an economic s**thole, makes another invasion an 'easy' way of picking up all that revenue.

[giblets]

Sea jet anyone? :)

[BEagle]

Simple - Argentina v England in the World Cup and the winner keeps the islands.

Can't see what bennyfit a few more grunts and another brace of fag chariots would provide - Argentina ruled out military action several years ago. And where would the 'upped garrision' actually come from - Iraq or Afghanistan?

[jammydonut]

It would be easier to give each islander £1M each and a ticket to NZ

[Navaleye]

And where would the 'upped garrision' actually come from - Iraq or Afghanistan?

We still have over 10,000 in NI not doing very much.

It would be easier to give each islander £1M each and a ticket to NZ

We tried something similar in Diego Garcia. I don't think HMG would want to be in that position. The days of forcing citizens out of the land of their birth are long gone.

[Gainesy]

And didn't the Garcians win an appeal to be allowed to return sometime in the last month?

[AlanM]

No surprises there then - saw a Malvinas flag behind the goal in the Argy Bargy game last week - went right off them again.

[WHBM]

We tried something similar in Diego Garcia
Not too similar. I think the inhabitants were given something nearer to £1 than £1m !

[BEagle]

"From 1967 to 1973, British officials and military officers – in secret and for a secret fee of $14 million, paid by the U.S. military unlawfully (without Congressional authorization) – forcibly evicted, arrested, detained, deported, and excluded permanently from their homeland the entire indigenous citizen population of all 65 islands (every last man, woman, and child), an ethnic-cleansing which (as they secretly admitted at the time) violated the United Nations Charter and other U.S. and international law and, as a British Court ruled 30 years later, British domestic law as well (Nov. 3 2000)."

Hardly the same as bunging Bennies £1M and a one-way ticket each!

See http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1317945,00.html for more information on the scandalous treatment of the islanders of Diego Garcia.

[Navaleye]

Could the Kiwis cope with an influx of more technically advanced and otherwise superior species of immigrants? :ouch:

[jammydonut]

More to the point, could they cope if they brought 5M sheep with them...

[airborne_artist]

on the scandalous treatment of the islanders of Diego Garcia.

And to add insult to injury, most of the DGs were then "re-settled" in Crawley :(

[flipster]

So moving Crawley very more much up-market?:eek:

[jammydonut]

A tropical paradise fishing or down town Crawley cleaning LGW toilets......:ouch:

[LowNSlow]

Daede1 sorry mate that's cobblers, Desire Petroleum (who have a lot / most of the blocks around the FI) shares are still bumping along around £0.33 as they have done for ages. See here http://www.axlquotes.com/axl-dlls/publish?url=/trades.shtml&SYMBOL=DES

[althenick]

Argentina ruled out military action several years ago.
Come now Beags - You ought to know better than to believe the word of a politician. :O

[vecvechookattack]

Sounds a great idea. Hand the bloomin things over as soon as possible. We have wasted far too much money on these islands...let some other bugger take care of them

[alwayzinit]

oops!

Started another thead before I saw this one.:O

Correct me someone if I am wrong but historically Argentina has never owed the Falklands/Malvinas.

I believe that they, the islands, were originally a Spanish outpost as was the "colony" of Argentina.

Spain ceded ownership and pulled out and a couple of RN frigates planted the flag as nobody else wanted them.

This was before Argentina was even an independant country. So consequently they have no claim under international law.

Alwayz

[Taildragger67]

And didn't the Garcians win an appeal to be allowed to return sometime in the last month?

A few went back by ship from Mauritius for visit lasting a few days.

[vecvechookattack]

No, No. They have a genuine and legal claim to the Islands. They were there long before we were..... They are closer to Arg than they are to the UK..... They are approx here 51°42'0" S 57°51'0" W .... Come and get them please Pedro...

[dallas]

IIRC the feud revolves around who found them first. History records the British finding them, while the Spaniards - modern day Argentina - were first to settle them. Then the Brits popped back and built a colony, just as the Spanish one failed and so on and so on. Problem is it's a grey area.

Perhaps Argentina might think they heard someone's neices' cousin mention WMD in the Falklands, whereupon they've got all the UN mandates they need to re-invade. I've seen it done, honest!

[vecvechookattack]

Sounds about right....but whatever the argument, they know where they are and its fine by us if they want them back....so please, please Mr Kirchner....have them....take them...

[Navaleye]

How about turning W Falkland into an open air prison for the 10,000 foreign prisoners we have contaminating our prison system. Two choices pal: The Falklands in a tent or home!

[airborne_artist]

W Falkland into an open air prison for the 10,000 foreign prisoners

NavalEye for Home Secretary :ok: :ok:

[Navaleye]

Sort of like a Gitmo, but without the nice weather, palm trees, good food etc. Probably wouldn't need to waste money putting walls or wire up either.

[alwayzinit]

No Surrender!!:mad:

The "islands " have some of the best Sea Trout fishing going!!

let alone the black smelly stuff...:E

Alwayz

[OFBSLF]

How about turning W Falkland into an open air prison for the 10,000 foreign prisoners we have contaminating our prison system. Two choices pal: The Falklands in a tent or home!Does the Falkands still have an issue with uncleared minefields? This might be a good way to clear them, Soviet style. "March that way, Bloggs!"

[Navaleye]

I believe there are about 15,000 un-located, so plenty of legs to go round!

[SASless]

As a good will gesture to try and make up for the Diego Garcia thing....what say we throw in 850 bods from Gitmo and a few thousand goats? That way we close Gitmo, remove a thorn in everyone's hide and let all the 'furriners" have the pleasure of clean air, wide open spaces, and all the wooly girl friends they could want. Sorta make Kiwi's out of them in a way.

[Gainesy]

Trouble is, if you start transporting prisoners to far away islands, they tend to come back two centuries later and beat us at cricket (well, sometimes).:)

[microlight AV8R]

Well I'm with Alwayz. There are over 250 good reasons why the Argies should stay away! Is there a decent cricket pitch there?

[Colonal Mustard]

Still.. what great viewing watching the argies getting their ar*** kicked in the shootout by the germans.........for the first (and last) time i cheered the bosh on at the end..........

Even funnier watching the argies reaction at the end!!!!!!!typical tw***;)

[airborne_artist]

watching the argies getting their ar*** kicked

They don't like it up'em, Captain Mainwaring :ok:

[Jaguar001]

What would UK do if Argentina did invade Falkland Islands now. The British forces are a bit distracted in Iraq and Afganistan. So now would be the best opportunity for Argentina to take over.

[harrogate]

What would UK do if Argentina did invade Falkland Islands now. The British forces are a bit distracted in Iraq and Afganistan. So now would be the best opportunity for Argentina to take over.

... especially now they're ficked off about the World Cup. They're looking for a fight.

Let them have the islands...

... but let's first use the area to rigourously test the replacement for Trident.

The islands be glowing when we hand them over.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

The islanders themselves want to remain part of Britain and the British position is one of self-determination. As long as the inhabitants of the islands want to remain part of the UK then Britain will respect their wishes.

Thus international law and the UN charter are on our side. End of argument. They were important enough to defend in both World Wars, and still are now.

[NightFlit]

Perhaps HMG might requisition XH558 just after its return to flight, in preparation for a repeat of history!

[*Zwitter*]

What would UK do if Argentina did invade Falkland Islands now.


pop down homebase and buy some brushes to paint the sea jets again, lease a load of F4's from Davis Monthan, give TVOC £500,000 to get the vulcan in the air?

well, we can dream...

[Taildragger67]

Trouble is, if you start transporting prisoners to far away islands, they tend to come back two centuries later and beat us at cricket (well, sometimes).:)

Only five months to go until the current aberration is put right.

[Flatus Veteranus]

How about turning W Falkland into an open air prison for the 10,000 foreign prisoners we have contaminating our prison system. Two choices pal: The Falklands in a tent or home!

And put all the paedos on S Georgia?

[peppermint_jam]

As long as they bomb the house that the ref for todays England game lives in, I'd be over the moon!!

Apologies for the Hijack

[BlueWolf]

It would be easier to give each islander £1M each and a ticket to NZ

Sorry, but Komrade Helengrad doesn't like white English-speaking immigrants, as they tend to vote for National....you'll have to disguise them as something else entirely.

[airborne_artist]

I doubt that the Bennies would understand voting anyway. Tell Helen to hold the elections at shearing time :E

[Razordome]

Here. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/06/30/wfalk30.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/06/30/ixnews.html)
Might be a prudent move to up the garrison size and perhaps a few more F3s. Presumably land based radar should be able to spot incoming Arg a/c on take off so early warning should not be a problem. HMS Liverpool is FIGS at the moment.

I take it you believe the earth is flat. Nowadays, it appears it is shaped like a ball and therefore, no, land based radars will not find the enemy aircraft beyond 40ish nm - basic physics. Didn't we have this problem in '82!!. RN thought it could cope, and immediately paid for production of AEW. It is simple - those F3's will not last long without AEW, as the SuperE/Skyhawks will be in on the deck, and taking out the runway - followed by the rest of the airfield. Land radars do not have a hope.:ugh:

[Razordome]

Sea jet anyone? :)
You hit it on the head. Oil prospects + no sea jet + RN cut backs = easy target

[Navaleye]

I take it you believe the earth is flat. Nowadays, it appears it is shaped like a ball and therefore, no, land based radars will not find the enemy aircraft beyond 40ish nm - basic physics

Quite true for a radar at sea level, but not so for a radar 1500ft up a mountain. I understand that S-1850 search radar to be fitted in the T45 was able to monitor movements at every major European airport when it was ground tested.

[Razordome]

Quite true for a radar at sea level, but not so for a radar 1500ft up a mountain. I understand that S-1850 search radar to be fitted in the T45 was able to monitor movements at every major European airport when it was ground tested.

Which is why I said about being able to see enemy at 40nm (ish I admit). At sea level you are looking at 9nm (against sea skimmer)....s^&t...boring myself now!:=

T45 looking over the horizon?? Atmospheric ducting maybe has this effect in a surface duct. Personnally heard Florida coast guard when at 200ft in UK before on HF, but radar will not get close to these ranges....maybe double the range if lucky, but will not see much in elevation.

Its like being back at work:ugh:

[SirToppamHat]

Radar Height = 1500 ft
Tgt Height = 250 ft =1000ft
Radar Horizon = 67nm =86nm

See Here:

Radar Horizon Calculator (http://radarproblems.com/calculators/horizon.htm)

Very Clever!

STH

[Maple 01]

land based radars will not find the enemy aircraft beyond 40ish nm PMSL!

T-84 radar 90% probability of a paint on a Canberra size target at 40,000ft at 250 something miles

AA4 Mk 7 Bu@@er-all probability of a paint at 3 feet on an A-380 sized target crammed with reflectors and painted with extra reflective paint

S259/S600 as far as the radar cabin door (on good day) just enough power to make you sterile

T101, AR3D - low level coverage out to bloody miles when stuck on mountains and using electronic tilt (or whatever the multiphased array thingy does), a bit more than 40 nms!

Next generation, oooh, quite a way

Mind you, most RN radars have a better detection range when they are switched off!

[Razordome]

Radar Height = 1500 ft
Tgt Height = 250 ft =1000ft
Radar Horizon = 67nm =86nm
See Here:
Radar Horizon Calculator (http://radarproblems.com/calculators/horizon.htm)
Very Clever!
STH

1500ft horizon from radar + 50ft target = 56nm horizon. OK not 40nm.

[Razordome]

PMSL!
T-84 radar 90% probability of a paint on a Canberra size target at 40,000ft at 250 something miles
AA4 Mk 7 Bu@@er-all probability of a paint at 3 feet on an A-380 sized target crammed with reflectors and painted with extra reflective paint
S259/S600 as far as the radar cabin door (on good day) just enough power to make you sterile
T101, AR3D - low level coverage out to bloody miles when stuck on mountains and using electronic tilt (or whatever the multiphased array thingy does), a bit more than 40 nms!
Next generation, oooh, quite a way
Mind you, most RN radars have a better detection range when they are switched off!

Mk7 radar is the dogs bollox, and one of the few procurement projects that has worked well. Although limited in radar horizon by the airframe it compares very well to E-3 considering its in a helicopter and costs a hell of a lot less. Even your T-84 performance doesn't impress:= T101 thingy........still cant see around corners!!....my radar is better than yours.....lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala. Get out of your bunker and get some fresh air!! - Seriously, I am just winding you up. But if we had beat the Argies in the cup final, I would be preparing to be embarking the next day.

This is getting too geeky!!!! I am off to watch someone sleeping on big brother....and think of more fires to light

[Maple 01]

Kids today, I despair! No history

Ack Ack 4 Mk 7
1950's vintage extremely short range gun-laying radar 'gifted' by our Army chums when Anti Aircraft command was disbanded and they sold the 40mm Bofors guns. AKA Blue Diamond, Range = 9.7miles (15.5km) (ha! says who?)

[Razordome]

Kids today, I despair! No history
Ack Ack 4 Mk 7
1950's vintage extremely short range gun-laying radar 'gifted' by our Army chums when Anti Aircraft command was disbanded and they sold the 40mm Bofus guns

OK - head now out of butt. Guess best put this thread back on track.........what were we talking about?

[jonny5]

The argies thinking they are going to get their greasy little mits on the falklands. Anyone who has said on this thread that we should give them to the argies are mad. Hundreds of serviceman on both sides died in 1982, that is reason enough to fight and continue fighting for the islands. Buenos aires- Bring it on!:*

[midsomerjambo]

Sorry, but Komrade Helengrad doesn't like white English-speaking immigrants, as they tend to vote for National....you'll have to disguise them as something else entirely.

As I recall the place from my 4 months on wokkas there in '85, you could probably capture the bennies, drug them, stuff a couple of hundred quid in there pockets and dump them on the Mull of Kintyre with a few sheep (having previously given the MoK inhabitants the £1m each and evacuated them to Shetland) - when the bennies woke up, they'd never notice the difference :)

[Navaleye]

Fortunately, Arg Air does not have enough air2air refuelling assets to permit a low-low-low attack on the FI. This means they will be spotted on the way in. I'd also suggest a well coordinated pair of F3s could take out a large chunk of Arg Air's only air defence Mirage sqn in one go.

[Wyler]

Razordome.

AEW the answer? You would need a shed load for 24 hour cover (land and sea based), assuming they could take off in the standard weather at MPA. Non starter.

Navaleye is correct, they can't come LL all the way. The idea is to spot them earlier. Layered defence with a little help from some clever wiggly amps. Ground based radars are limited, but only one piece in the jigsaw.

As for the 'locals', far more patriotic than your average Brit.

[airborne_artist]

Might I suggest that the easiest way to achieve a reliable early warning would be to do just what we did last time, and put OPs in by the air bases concerned, and on the likely coasting-out points.

Just rent a house close to each one, and connect it to the Ops Room in MPA via broadband with a satellite back-up.

[Widger]

Wyler, my little crabby FC friend....you need to get your butt onto a CVS and watch 849. They can cover 24hrs with as little as three or four aircraft. Its called "Ripple Flying" and they proved that they could do it in George's War II. You don't need loads of assets, just aircrew. Land on refuel, launch. But then I suppose on an E3 you have to get the galley restocked by 3663, beds changed and fluffed up etc!

[vecvechookattack]

Hear Hear. If you need AEW cover...call for the baggies.

[ORAC]

HFWSR (http://www.ottawa.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/html/RS-211-hfswr_e.html) :cool:

[Wyler]

Widger.
So, we have sufficient CVS's and AEW to cover 365 days? Doubt it. Your method is OK for clearly defined, and relatively short (weeks?), periods of time.
Anyway, the thread is referring to the FI. You telling me that the RN is going to provide those kinds of assets to protect the Islands. If so, you really are short of proper jobs.
Have been on a CVS for 2 weeks. Admittedly, most of it was parked alongside in Copenhagen, but that is another story...

[Navaleye]

We don't have AEW assets in the FI because they are not needed. The ground based cover provided satisfies the requirement apparently provides a perfectly good view of Arg air movements even over the mainland.

[SASless]

Buenos aires- Bring it on!

When GWB said that....it was "Cowboy Talk"!

My how attitudes change over time!:D

[Dogfish]

I wouldn't worry about the Argies, if the Spams hear about the oil its odds on that they will find a reason to invade.:hmm:

[Tartan Giant]

I came across this the other day - some more history.
Carlos Ortiz de Rozas is asked:
What was the Islanders legal status before the war? [the Falklands War 1982]
Answer: They had no British citizenship. If the 2,000 Islanders had said, OK, we’ll go to live in Britain they would have had no access. In 1982 they were given citizenship.............
Bit of a different story this end!
The British Government however has no doubts as to their British sovereignty, as Britain has continuously administered the islands since 1833 and the population consider themselves to be entirely British.
http://www.mercopress.com/Detalle.asp?NUM=8233
Mercosur
Saturday, 01 July
Falklands’ 25 years fishing permits “a provocation”
The granting of fishing permits of up to 25 years is a provocation inviting Buenos Aires to also adopt drastic measures, said Carlos Ortiz de Rozas, who was ambassador to the United Kingdom as the two countries went to war in 1982 over the Falkland Islands, writes Guillermo Haskel in The Buenos Aires Herald.
Amb. Carlos Oritz
In a telephone interview with the BAH, Ortiz de Rozas also said that the Falklanders were largely to blame in a dispute over charter flights to the Islands, contrasting this obstinacy with the indisputable goodwill of past British governments something that, he says, has now changed.
How do you see Britain’s stance on the Malvinas issue?
I think that Britain has assumed a stance that in no way considers negotiating with Argentina and this is made evident by these 25-year fishing permits. Those who have read, as I did, the British official story of the Malvinas by Sir Lawrence Friedman, know perfectly that the British have made a decision on this issue, and that decision entails precisely not negotiating. It says, for instance, that on the Malvinas issue the law matters much less than force. That record was written at the behest of the British, and for the first time Sir Lawrence Friedman has had access to the most confidential British archives. And he arrives at very interesting conclusions. That is why I am not surprised at these attitudes that the British government is adopting. Deep inside this issue of the 25-year fishing permits is a provocation inviting Argentina to also adopt drastic measures. I don’t know what Argentine authorities will do. This doesn’t herald anything good for bilateral relations regarding the Malvinas.
Is it President Néstor Kirchner who toughened Argentina’s stance or is his government reacting to British action?
I think that in the case of the 25-year fishing permits it is Argentina who is reacting to a British action. Because shortly before, the British had their icebreaker Endurance undergo repairs at Puerto Belgrano... Yes, at that time it seemed that things were going to be somewhat better.
Is there any visible element that may have prompted what you describe as a provocation?
If there is any, I don’t know what. I think that this is a political decision not to negotiate absolutely anything that may imply a possible sovereignty transfer. We are now in the antipodes of what could have been, until April 2, 1982, a midterm solution. There was the will from the British government to reach a solution. And, in my view, the war destroyed that possibility.
British governments, not just one British government, initially offered to share the sovereignty with a condominium, which entailed a partial transfer of sovereignty. That was already something. It was a conquest. It was not all that Argentina was hoping for but it was a step forward. Then, there was the so-called lease-back which was the acknowledgment of Argentina’s sovereignty but signing an accord whereby, for a number of years to be determined, the same conditions that existed until that moment in the Malvinas would be maintained.
How has the Argentine government acted on the Islands issue?
Frankly, regarding the Malvinas policy, I don’t see the final objective. I would say that if there is something, it is just a beginning. A state policy should be structured. Not a government policy, because governments come and go. They should gather the leaders of different sectors in Argentina to structure a state policy that assures the continuity of its implementation through the years. A policy that is not particular to an incumbent government.
Is there, in your view, such a state policy?
In Argentina there has never existed a state policy regarding the Malvinas. There have been government policies. If a state policy existed, I never knew of it, and I should have known because I have been involved in the issue for many years.
Are there any prospects that Foreign Minister Tatiana’s denunciation of the fishing permits before the UN will succeed?
The Foreign Minister’s attending the meeting of the C24 was positive. The UN has given Argentines great satisfaction. Through the years it has approved resolutions accepting our points of view on negotiations to pacifically solve the sovereignty dispute.
Even in November 1982, months after the war was over, the UN General Assembly once again insisted in the reassumption of the negotiations. Regarding the Malvinas, after the war, one has to be very patient.
Separately, all interests must be respected. The Islanders, Britain and Argentina all have interests that must be respected. And efforts must be made to seek to conciliate those interests.
How do you see the Islanders’ stance regarding flights to the Malvinas?
The issue of the flights has to do with the obstinacy of the Malvinenses because they are largely to blame in this. I have personally seen an indisputably very good will from British governments that stumbled with the obstinacy of the Islanders, who didn’t want to have anything to do with anything. As (then Foreign Officer Minister) Nicholas Ridley said as a example, there are people who live 20 miles from London and have never gone to London. The Islanders live 10,000 kilometres from Britain and are much more islanders than the British. If the Islanders showed a little goodwill there would be possibilities to have charter flights which would benefit them. What do they care if the flights depart from Argentina? They are obstinate in that the flights must depart from Chile. I think that Argentina with all reason says, so you are obstinate? OK, we too.
Is there a self-determination regime in the making for the Islanders?
They already have self-determination, because the British have acknowledged that. Not we, but the British, who have the de facto possession of the islands, acknowledged it.
What was the Islanders legal status before the war?
They had no British citizenship. If the 2,000 Islanders had said, OK, we’ll go to live in Britain they would have had no access. In 1982 they were given citizenship.
Is oil playing a part in the dispute?
I think that so far, oil is just an expectation. Its existence has not been confirmed. If it had, issues would be much harder.
How helpful is Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez’s support for Argentina’s claims to the Malvinas?
I have a very personal opinion on Chavez’s support. As was evident in Peru, his support for (then presidential candidate Ollanta) Humala was the end for Humala. So I think that is a very dangerous hug. It is better for him not to meddle. We don’t need his support.
--------------------
http://www.army.mod.uk/aroundtheworld/flk/index.htm
The Falkland Islands have been in continuous British occupation since 1833. Captain John Strong, who gave the islands their English name, made the first known landing in 1690. South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands were once Dependencies of the Falkland Islands. They were formed into a separate dependent territory in October 1985.
Argentina disputes the British claim to sovereignty over the islands. The country bases its claim to the Falklands (or the 'Malvinas' as they are known in Argentina) on the grounds that it succeeded to rights claimed by Spain in the eighteenth century. The British Government however has no doubts as to their British sovereignty, as Britain has continuously administered the islands since 1833 and the population consider themselves to be entirely British.
------------------
They won't let it go will they!
TG

[jonny5]

SASless, being as how we own the falkland islands, i do not think we can act as cowboys. Now if the argies had them and were minding their own business,(like a few other countries i could name) and we invaded them, taking the rest of us with you, then call us cowboys!!
cowboy!:ugh:

[WE Branch Fanatic]

If only we still had the Sea Jet (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98152)............. (leaving the ones at SFDO aside for a moment, hope they are looked after properly, also the ones in storage at Shawbury).

All the more reason to expedite work on the Future Carriers (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=221116).