Has the ISK Staish Lost the Plot?

[Wotta Dump]

So first we had people writing formals letters for not wearing their hats for the 3 yards from the door of Ops to the Crew Coach. Possibly slight overkill with the letters requirement, but at the time I agreed with him that some of the aircrew were being slack gits.
However, apparently you now have to keep your hat on while you are seated on the Crew Coach. I'm not sure at what point you are allowed to take your hat off. Is it as the coach crosses the white line delineating the active pan, or is it just before you actually step onto the pan?
With JPA still being so screwed up (I have heard people on the phones this week talking to the helpdesk for the 3rd month running trying to get their pay straightened out), it's nice to see the hierachy sorting out the important 'issues' - not.:ugh:
I look forward to seeing him seated in the cockpit of an Eastern Airways aircraft with his hat on!
Wotta :oh:

[BEagle]

Suggest you do as you're told.

Hardly a particular embuggerance to have to sit in a bus with your hat on, I would have thought.

I very much doubt whether your Stn Cdr has 'lost the plot' - but perhaps he doesn't like scruffy slobs.

[goatmanni]

Wotta

I'm with you mate - no advantage to wearing a hat on a coach.

As for Beags reply - what's scruffy about not wearing a hat inside a vehicle? I suppose he's a 'flat-cap wearing' Volvo driver who always wears his cap whilst driving. Some people really need to focus on the important things in life.

[L J R]

Don't wear the hat, don't write the letter, get the bollocking, problem goes away.


Getting 'extra duties' as a 'punishment' is illegal nowerdays.

Log on to JPA and PVR. Oh I have found the flaw in my argument.

[South Bound]

Goat

no advantage to wearing a beret or SD hat at all. It serves no function apart from identification and appearance. But it is uniform and that is why we wear it. I am a fairly black-and-white individual, so either we wear hats properly or do away with them altogether. Until they are done away with, we should wear them properly and that may involve wearing them on Service vehicles. Funny that is not difficult for the army to wear berets driving for hours down the motorway....

I know it is a faff, but it is not difficult either. You say focus on the important things in life - absolutely - is it gonna kill you to wear it? If that is the way the staish wants it, crack on and don't moan too much.

[BEagle]

One presumes that the coach is for officers - and that the untermensch are marched to the aeroplane? Then lined up and inspected?

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/B-29_674.jpg

I've no idea whether your Stn Cdr wears a 'flat-cap' (how distressingly Northern) or drives a Volvo - I most certainly don't do either of those things.

A Volvo indeed.....

[ChezTanker]

I would suggest that the order to wear hats in service vehicles is not limited to the crew bus. I suggest you stop being 'holier than thou' and consider that 'you' should be setting an example to others. If you don't like it then there is a door marked exit from the RAF.

Stand back and wait for 'holier than thou' individuals to calm down.

[flipster]

Wotta,

These days, Stn Cdrs have so little actual power, the only things they can actually do anything about are 'hats on/off' and 'designated car-parking spaces'. Give him a break!

Admittedly, its a bit sad and hardly 'big picture' stuff, as you quite rightly point out and yes, there are better and more effective ways to get people to have a bit of pride in their appearance but how else is he going to make his mark and get promoted? Some of the best and up-beat units I have seen were united in hatred of their @rse of a Sqn Boss/Stn Cdr - who then, regrettably, got promoted....aargh!

However, as others have said, wearing a hat is not a difficult thing to do. So, unless you want to make a bad name for yourself, do as he says, paste a happy grin to your face and keep your powder dry for the big issues. If the Stn Cdr gets those right, however, maybe he's not so bad after all? Although, his apparent lack of focus does not bode well for ISK.

In the meantime, always remember RULE 1 - DON'T GET CAUGHT!!!!!:ok:

[airborne_artist]

If you can't take a joke you really should not have joined.

It's the Staish's trainset, so you play by his rules.

[anotherthing]

Sorry,

it might be an inconvenience, it might p:mad: :mad: s you off to have to do it, but at the end of the day it's small cheese.

If petty little things like that affect you, then you are probably too precious to be in the armed forces.

I left a few years ago and yes some of the small rules can be annoying, but the armed forces have much more to worry about nowadays with overstretch etc etc that personnel should not really get their panties in a twist because their Commanding Officer decrees they have to wear headgear at certain times.

[Danny_Boy]

Perhaps the guy feels there is a significant lack of discipline/untidiness about the unit in general. By targetting the low-level, and some would say inconsequential stuff, perhaps he is hoping to change this. The New York 'Zero Tolerance' stance in the 90's targetted shop lifters and litter droppers, and before too long murder rates had plummetted. Beret on today, FOD put away tomorrow?

[L J R]

Give mew a hat that is not a FOD problem (buttons and metal badges etc) and I will wear it!

Current RAF uniforms are a significant FOD hazard, we just haven't yet lost a jet to prove it (Yet!)

[TOPBUNKER]

BEAG'S

Would the "do as you're told" comment apply to those who refuse a legitimate order to perform a fitness test?

If the cap fits...

[BEagle]

Yes it would.

If you're implying that I ever had to be ordered to do the RAFFT, then you're talking spheroids. Although it might have taken a while for me to get round to bothering....

When I left the RAF, all stats were fully current.

[Wrathmonk]

But Beags surely the RAFFT is annual not a once in a lifetime experience!:}

[TOPBUNKER]

BEAG'S



Oh I see.

As a Sqn Ldr (setting an example?) "not bothering" to do the RAFFT is fine and dandy, but neglecting to wear a hat in a crew bus constitutes a disciplinary offence.

Gottit now.

The word hypocrite comes to mind!

And by the way don't QRs count as legitimate orders? Just because you weren't individually prodded in the chest and kicked 'round to the gym is no excuse. And yes, actually I sort of didn't bother doing said 'test' for a long time, and I also neglected to do the hat donning thing on many occasions; but I'm not trying to be holier than thou! - Well not much anyway!!

[Kitbag]

This is starting to remind me of the 'MT cleaning a vehicle after its use' thread. I think the same principles were argued about over 7 or 8 pages. Staish, train set, vote with feet, change rules, military discipline, legitimate orders. There that should cover the basics, now can we put this one out of its misery? :ok:

[vecvechookattack]

Far be it from a member of the senior service to lecture people on dress and bearing (we are the best example of how not to do it) bt can anyone explain to me what a crew bus is and what it does ?

[BEagle]

You probably know it as a 'Pusser's Tilly' or by somesuch jackspeak name.

Used by those whose aeroplane is too large and important to be situated close to the squadron buildings.

[vecvechookattack]

Thought that may be the case...Thanks Beagle

[airborne_artist]

You probably know it as a 'Pusser's Tilly'

If our legs had been too weak to carry our bellies to the cab we'd have been taken off flying.

Pusser's tillies were driven by delightfull blonde/brunette/redheaded young things in crisp white blouses, a shortish black skirt, stockings and elegant heels. Their legs were always the right way up. :E

[BEagle]

Did you let Jenny WRNS drive them as well?

Never quite sure about you soap-on-a-roap RN types......:p

[vecvechookattack]

If their legs were on the right way up then they were surely WRAFs.....everyone knows that WRNS have their legs on upside down.

[WhiteOvies]

Having sampled the delights of both (as I am sure many on this forum have :E ) and despite being proudly RN, I came to the conclusion I preferred WRAFs and married one. All legs were on the right way round but there's no accounting for personal tastes, and I'm sure that after a few stella it wasn't really important. :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

What goes round goes round. When we had the no flying suits off the flight line, ISK went finger up and ISL went hard nosed.

I always used to wear a forage cap when around the mighty V. A hard hat could have bent things and broken aerials. The soft cap saved my head many a time.

On the Shack I think we had to wear headsets, certainly getting on an E3 you need a headset on before you leave the crew bus.

This then begs the question, where do you put your tiffer? At least on the Vulcan Mr Roe put a very handy stowage for the nav rad and AEO just above their desks.

In the Nig nog they jst add to the clutter in the back, nav bags, jackets, hats etc.

Just as well they have a luggage locker to hang your No 1s and a hat stowage for your SD hat in the Typhoon. Thye do have a wardrobe don't they?

Remember on the Hastings we actually flew in No 1s! Jacket off and flying suit on. Some lazy so and sos just used to fly in shirt sleevs and braces.

[Two's in]

What a dreadful imposition by the CO. I bet he's anally retentive about that other military twaddle as well, such as:

1. Shaving
2. Personal Hygiene
3. Polishing Footwear (not desert wellies)
4. Pressing (ironing for men) Uniforms
5. Haircuts
6. Saluting (not while on operations)

You'll be acting like those awful Army chappies next, all disciplined and military-like. It was never like this at the other airlines.

[ThreadBaron]

I preferred WRAFs and married one
I'm sure that after a few stella it wasn't really important
Oh, come on! They can't all have been called Stella! Unless they all twinkled.

Someone, please check out the meaning of the word 'uniform'.

[dogstar2]

Well our staish has decided that all mess social events are compulsory and the register will be taken. The aim of this is probably to get more people to attend the events. Perhaps to do that they should think about making events more attractive to the officers concerned rather than making them attend an expensive dinner where all that happens is to execute a huge list of mediocre leaving speeches. Oh and by the way.....no pyros, drilled glasses and general fun and japery which used to be so widespread in our messes - its all got to be dry, PC and frankly boring.

[BEagle]

That's easy.....

You all go. Arrive at the appointed hour. Don't speak in the ante-room unless some wheel talks to you. Reply using the minimum number of words needed.

After grace, you take your seats. No-one speaks to anyone. When the wine comes you accept a glass. Which you don't drink.

The meal continues in silence.

You do the loyal toast thing. The sit down again - and speak to no-one.

You listen to the speeches in total silence.

At the end of the dinner, you all go home immediately.

Do that a couple of times and the stupid bugger will soon see the error of his ways.......his 'guests' will be singularly pi$$ed off and the word will soon get around that he is a total w*nker.

It worked at Chivenor.....

[Anita Bush]

Just a small question on etiquette

Does one wear headdress whilst being driven from Aircraft to Ops whilst partaking in DCS eating competition?

:ok:

Sounds like your staish needs a reality check T***er! Sound like the sort of bloke who would shut the Pigs 'cause no one is using the main bar.

[insty66]

If that's the biggest item of concern at ISK might I humbly suggest that you be quiet?:ugh:
Officers and SNCOs are supposed to set a good example and not worry about the terrible inconvenience of having to wear uniform at work.
If it's too much hassle to wear it............... leave! Simple really;)

[KPax]

Come to Wiltshires premier airbase. Joint Happy Hours, Joint Dining in Nights. Seems to be going ok.

[Confucius]

"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong." (Voltaire)

[D-IFF_ident]

I currently don't even have a hat. But if anyone can get hold of a size 58 chip bag and meet me at RIAT, I'd gladly wear it on a coach if it keeps the highly paid help happy.

[Pontius Navigator]

Beagle,

Happened at Waddo too.

You missed a bit, you don't have to eat either.

One dining-in night I did not go to was at Lossie.

It was a ladies DI and Mrs PN's parting words were *!££$$" as I left the house at 0400 on a station callout.

Wheels probably thought it would be good fun and a great morale building exercise to have a 'work hard (0400-1700) play hard (1700-0x00)' game.

Years earlier at Waddo we had a great medic who got in so quick that he did not go to Cranditz and we did his IOT and AvMed in OJT.:} . We did a good job.

One dining-in he was not invited. Now he had learnt that the officers' mess is a liver-ins home and the social centre of the station. Why, he asked, when there was entertaining in his own home was he nt able to dine in?

Thereafter all dining in nights (about once per month) were offered to livers in with quarter rats and execs comng on a fill up basis. It was great and we were able to dine amngst people we knew and we had a good sprinkle of senior livers in too.

[JessTheDog]

Don't wear the hat....attempt to send a formal apology letter through JPA!

I recall a particularly @nal wing commander at Wycombe who had a thing about personnel dismounting from their bicycles to push them across 3 feet of pavement from one road to another...unless the personnel in question were of the same rank or above, or old enough not to care. Moral courage should be applied with authority.

[vecvechookattack]

That's easy.....
You all go. Arrive at the appointed hour. Don't speak in the ante-room unless some wheel talks to you. Reply using the minimum number of words needed.
After grace, you take your seats. No-one speaks to anyone. When the wine comes you accept a glass. Which you don't drink.
The meal continues in silence.
You do the loyal toast thing. The sit down again - and speak to no-one.
You listen to the speeches in total silence.
At the end of the dinner, you all go home immediately.
Do that a couple of times and the stupid bugger will soon see the error of his ways.......his 'guests' will be singularly pi$$ed off and the word will soon get around that he is a total w*nker.
It worked at Chivenor.....


Thats a normal Crab mess dinner though...? The answer to attendance at Mess functions is to make them free like at Yeovilton. The Mess is in credit to the tune of £125k and so functions will be very heavily subsidised. As an aside and tio gain a rough impression. How much does yer average RAF Mess dinner cost? and How much does it cost to take Mr and Mrs RAF to the summer ball...thats just the cost of the ticket please...no droning on and on about how much the ball gown cost?

At Yeovilton, the summer ball cost £80 for the first 2 and then £85 for any further guests. For that you get the scran, free booze (excluding Shampoo) and of course the normal Alton Towers fiasco. An average mess dinner would cost IRO £25-30. (For that you just get the scran and wine/port at dinner - the rest you have to chit for)

[BEagle]

How on earth is your 'mess' (or should that be 'wardroom') in credit to the tune of £125K?? Which particular bunch of 'Peters' have been robbed blind so that the currrent bunch of 'Pauls' can take advantage of free functions?

Suspect you're talking bolleaux again.

And you've clearly never attended a proper RAF dining-in night.

[akula]

VVHA,

The normal RAF type dinner will hit the wallet for around the same as you Matelots and the Summer Ball seems to be a good bit cheaper around the 40-50 mark. Therefore, I suggest your 125K in credit is not exactly helping the mess members in as good a manner as you announced. Might even be worth looking at in an official capacity as messes are run for the benefit of the members not for profit or the accumulation of capital.


ALWAYS check NEVER assume

[ProfessionalStudent]

The other day, at a top secret base in southern Iraq, I had to get some crews fromthe mess tent pronto, as we had some troops under contact and we had to launch the fleet. The only way to get hold of them (comms are no the best here) was to "race" down in the company LR.

As I parked outside the mess tent, I was stopped in my tracks by the SWO.

"Just a moment, Sir. Can I have a word"

"Not really. I have troops under contact. In a bit of a rush"

"It won't take long sir. Firstly, you weren't wearing your head-dress in the vehicle, secondly, the speed with which you drove throught the gate was reckless and finally, you didn't reverse into your car parking space"

"Was there anything else?"

"I know you're in a hurry, sir, but there's an example to be set you know"

"Like not letting bullsh!t like this get in the way of Ops and people dying", said my internal monologue.

Now THAT'S petty and losing the plot. Blunt TW:mad: T

Ooh I hate them. I really really do. Glad to see we're not losing our operational focus.

[Vim_Fuego]

Is this still the same staish (at ISK) who has been systematically destroying his peoples morale and will to live for his entire time in charge?
If so then I hear the winge about hats and yes, it could be construed as petty (although I always wore mine from ops to the bus and on it as well) but this could just be a manifestation of frustration from a whole load of other stuff that has been happening up there...
Maritime...its not often you hear the word 'thin' around this part of the RAF but I've heard it is about as undermanned, certainly from the techie angle, as it can be with more PVR'ing and taking their golden ticket in the coming months...

[Jobza Guddun]

The other day, at a top secret base in southern Iraq, I had to get some crews fromthe mess tent pronto, as we had some troops under contact and we had to launch the fleet. The only way to get hold of them (comms are no the best here) was to "race" down in the company LR.
As I parked outside the mess tent, I was stopped in my tracks by the SWO.
"Just a moment, Sir. Can I have a word"
"Not really. I have troops under contact. In a bit of a rush"
"It won't take long sir. Firstly, you weren't wearing your head-dress in the vehicle, secondly, the speed with which you drove throught the gate was reckless and finally, you didn't reverse into your car parking space"
"Was there anything else?"
"I know you're in a hurry, sir, but there's an example to be set you know"
"Like not letting bullsh!t like this get in the way of Ops and people dying", said my internal monologue.
Now THAT'S petty and losing the plot. Blunt TW:mad: T
Ooh I hate them. I really really do. Glad to see we're not losing our operational focus.

What a shame you didn't give him a smack in the mouth on the way past. I guess that's why I'd never succeed as an officer!

I can't believe that, no matter how operational the location, you always find jobsworth t***s like that. :ugh: :mad:

[The Helpful Stacker]

What a shame you didn't give him a smack in the mouth on the way past. I guess that's why I'd never succeed as an officer!
I can't believe that, no matter how operational the location, you always find jobsworth t***s like that. :ugh: :mad:

Oh, there's plenty of jobsworths at Basrah.

It says something when some of us were glad to go up to Balad or Al Amara to get away from the 'hats and desert shirts on in vehicles no matter what' type bullsh!t. Oh and don't forget to carry your BA and helmet everywhere with you, unless you are off out for a run of course because rockets and mortars won't hit a running person.:mad:

[buoy15]

Dogstar 2
After our Batting Service was stealthily removed by 'new age' Mess Managers, and replaced by U/S kettles, stale tea bags, out of date UHT milk pots and early calls which never happened, I came to the conclusion that the Mess was run for the benefit of the staff and not the Members. This was followed by H&S and the Food Act which they supported with glee! No more access to the side kitchen for a late night marmite and dripping sarnie, and more better, no free 'survivor party's' following the Summer Ball
One particular year I enquired why no Survivor Party
"Sorry Sir, all the food was thrown out - Food Act you know"
"Yes I know that Flight, but we have checked all the bins and skips and there's no trace of it, and surely. your industrial fridges must be capable of storing 6 whole dressed salmon, 3 sides of beef, a suckling pig, plus 4 legs of ham for 24 hrs - not to mention all the cheeses and deserts?
"You would need to talk the Chef Sir"
"I think I'd best talk to the PMC and chief plod first"
Funny old thing - it all re-appeared on Sat afternoon in time for Survivors
Sadly, after that, I only used the Mess to collect my Mess Bill, which was usually left in a big pile at reception - providing it was manned - for my remaining 5 years prior to leaving
Love many, Trust a few, Always paddle your own canoe

[Pontius Navigator]

Buoy 15, you forgot they also put the bed in the middle of the room so it was easier to make up rather than a corner which gave more room.

[Navaleye]

Getting back to the point. If your station CO orders you to wear hats in the shower, then those are your orders and that is what you do.

Who said the military chain of command had to be rational?

[Confucius]

Getting back to the point. If your station CO orders you to wear hats in the shower, then those are your orders and that is what you do.

You know, I really think some people would.

[JessTheDog]

Anyone seen the McDaily Mail today?
1 page on drunken high-junks at ISK with 5 hospitalisations through alcohol consumption....sounds like a quiet night....

Usual journo lies?!? :}

[FlapsOne]

Having read this thread, I know exactly why I left the club 10 or more years ago!

The only thing I miss is the proximity of the bar!

[SwitchMonkey]

5 in hospital after "drunken hi-jinks"!

Don't tell me the mess has finally got some spirit back into it? Wonders will never cease.

[Pontius Navigator]

Getting back to the point. If your station CO orders you to wear hats in the shower, then those are your orders and that is what you do.
Who said the military chain of command had to be rational?

More than 3 decades ago my skipper's wife was horrified when her husband admitted that he could not get a copilot to have a hair cut. He even suggested that the gp capt would have difficulty too.

He rose to 2-star and the stn cdr to CDS.

Obedience to orders might be essential with brusiers inbound but hats in the shower? No.

[BEagle]

Rather than have to order me to get a new hat (actually, I already had a spare 'cere' one for parades, weddings and bollocking safely tucked away), the sqn boss took a simpler course of action.

He fed it to a chum's labrador....

"Of course, (BEags), you can now claim off your kit insurance - hat eaten by dog"

Hmm..........

[Navaleye]

Does that count as sqn high jinks or sheer bl00dy stupidity?

[teeteringhead]

Hey BEags(actually, I already had a spare 'cere' one for parades, weddings and bollocking safely tucked away) .. wasn't you in the famous story of the aircrew mate and the tatty hat on parade was it??

Staish: For ****'s Sake Bloggs, your appearance is appalling! Is that your only hat??

Bloggs: Nosir!! . . . [long pause] ... it's my best hat!

[PAMCC]

I agree with an earlier message that this staish has caused low morale and that the hat thing is just a way of someone venting their frustration at many petty decisions.

No he hasn't 'lost the plot' as he never had one.

Yes, it's his train set, but it's paid for by the tax payer and they have every right to expectations from this person. The petty things should be left to others.

As for the drunken hi-jinks of Friday night's International Hangar Party to mark the end of this year's Fincastle; I left as the ambulances were arriving. It wasn't difficult for any sensible person to see how things were going from early in the evening. The amount of free alchohol was, quite frankly, ridiculous. Offering drinks to young men and women that amounted to an eigth of a bottle of Vodka or Rum over ice-cream with a dash of coke was just asking for trouble.

I watched these drinks being poured right in front of the staish. I know we should all be adults and be responsible for our own consumption, but I really do think that he should have noticed what was happening and found some way of slwoing things down.

I hope no-one was badly hurt.

[South Bound]

Can you imagine the abuse he would have got on here if he had stopped them being poured????

[PAMCC]

I wasn't suggesting that the drinks were stopped, just reduced to a senisible level. Two of those drinks would have floored an elephant.

5 people were taken to hospital.

The rescue services reported total chaos with many people lying about unconcious. The local hospital ran out of ambulances and SAR helicopters had to be used as Air Ambulances.

It's all very well everyone having a good time and getting drunk but this was ridiculous and it was obvious that the Rate and amount of alcohol being given at any one time was, stupidly, too much. If the amount had been reduced then the youngsters could, possibly have handled it.

Someone in authority should have done something. The P & J report that there is an investigation under way.........well we all know how that one will disappear. It also reports that there will be disiplinary action...against whom? Those that did it, or those that allowed it to happen. We all know the answer to that one as well.

[Almost_done]

Someone in authority should have done something.


A well used phrase there, why can you be the person to do something? If you feel strongly enough about it.

[Had Enough 77]

I'm with you wotta dump, the current staish needs to get a grip morale is so loww at ISK due to him flapping round the station. Even on IOT you were allowed to take off your hat on a bus, what a joke he is. Pity he didn't keep his self made title of Kinloss Force Cmdr (KFC), oh thats right he was told to wind his neck in by the AOC.
Mind you with the return of the old OC42(R):eek: the whole station will be made to wear blues, you will probalbly have to change into your flying kit down the back of the aircraft and march to the a/c and back again.
Here endeth the rant!:O

[Skeleton]

What a pity ISK appears, from the small straw poll on here, to have gone to the dogs. Do not have a problem with officers wearing hats when told, (standards Sir) but in the 12 years i was there the changes to the RAF that seemed to plague other stations, was always bravely batted away by those in charge of the ISK flying club.

Mind you if the Staish is the man advertised on the official Kinloss website then he was IMHO a plonker of the highest order as a Sqn Ldr. :ugh: :ugh:

Now the other man running one of the Sqns at ISK, top bloke. He would probably insist on wearing your hats backwards if it was dark!! :)

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Just had to take a look at the ISK website for a Vis Ident!

Who ate all the pies?

[Pontius Navigator]

Wow, no wonder the MRA4 has a weight problem.

[The Gorilla]

Indeed and a name to fit. From a distance and I am no expert on either, but could it be a lively wig or Grecian 2000 (Sorry I mean Just for men!!)
:}

[Wrathmonk]

Glad to see he has extensive operational experience - in support of the Golden Jubilee!!!

[Clockwork Mouse]

When I was serving it was always a military custom to wear headgear in uniform outside a building, unless there were good reasons not to, eg in an aircraft manoeuvering area. Simple matter of standards, discipline, pride etc. But then we didn't wear growbags in the mess either.

So someone is trying to arrest the slide into total anarchy. Good for the Staish. Grow up you whingers or change jobs. And I don't think it was very clever identifying the individual. Not much evidence of standards, discipline or pride in your performance on this thread.

[Melchett01]

I have absolutely nothing to do with the Kipper Fleet, so have been watching this from the sidelines.

Just had a look at the Kinloss website out of curiosity and found this little gem:

the Nimrod MR2 Force:The premier global surveillance and attack force over land and sea

Blowing your own trumpet is one thing, but I think II & 13 might not be in entire agreement :E

[Skeleton]

And I don't think it was very clever identifying the individual. Not much evidence of standards, discipline or pride in your performance on this thread.

Agreed with most of your post but am slightly confused by the above.

Why not? Its on a website available for all to view, to which i mearly provided a link. No one has confirmed this is the individual concerned and to be fair the website is probably out of date anyway!!

[Clockwork Mouse]

Skeleton,
Quote: Mind you if the Staish is the man advertised on the official Kinloss website then he was IMHO a plonker of the highest order as a Sqn Ldr. Unquote.
Suggest this unambiguously identifies an individual. Also suggest you keep your humble opinion to yourself. Hope you have a good lawyer.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

Totally agree with Clockwork Mouse - I don't believe anyone's interests are served by airing issues like these in public. I think it reflects poorly on those (hiding behind a pseudonym) who use this forum to attempt to discredit their Station Commander.
The RAF isn't a menu that you can pick 'n mix exactly which parts you agree with or consider suit your particular lifestyle.
There's always been an element of aircrew who think it's "operational" to look scruffy. Bolleaux. Clean your flying boots, replace that tatty hat, bin your ripped cold weather flying jacket, put your hat on and save your posturing for when you're off duty.
In the meantime, grow up, show some loyalty and support the man.
Or leave.

sv

[Maple 01]

So someone is trying to arrest the slide into total anarchy. Good for the Staish. Grow up you whingers or change jobs. And I don't think it was very clever identifying the individual. Not much evidence of standards, discipline or pride in your performance on this thread.

The slide into total anarchy will start with Officers not wearing hats on a bus?

Get a life!

[JessTheDog]

I'm afraid you can say what you like in the company of like-minded people, whether in the bar or on an Internet chat room....as much as those with sinister authoritarian tendencies would like to change that!

[Clockwork Mouse]

M01

I suggest the slide into total anarchy has already started when something as trivial as an order to wear hats in uniform on a coach on duty on station has become the catalyst for officers, I assume they are officers, to identify and personally villify their commanding officer on a very public forum. What is your definition of anarchy?

If you behaved in such a disloyal, unbecoming and insubordinate manner, you would not deserve to be an officer. How would you expect your subordinates to behave when you had to give an unpopular order and how would you react if they behaved towards you as the posters on this thread have done? We are supposed to be a disciplined military force, for God's sake.

I have had a life. If you are indeed military, I suggest you should now look for one more suited to your own personal standards. You certainly don't live up to mine.

[Skeleton]

Mouse,

So you want me to keep my opinion to myself. I can cope with that but frankly don't see why I should. Is this because its a bad opinion? Are we saying its ok to give opinions on others provided there good? I thought this was a forum enriched by diverse opinion.

At the end of the day it is purely that - my opinion, sorry if it rankles with some but thats life i guess.

I think officers should wear hats when told to. That way at least they will remember to put them on :}

Steps into flame retardant suit and heads for cover.

[[email protected]]

There's always been something about the sideways walking fraternity which has made me wonder what they've got against wearing head dress. At the first opportunity they doff caps, and never seem to know when to don them again. It's as if they're ashamed of that particular part of their uniform. Can't you get together and come up with a combination of blue hues which appeals to your sense of fashion and doesn't upset your hair style too much?

I once heard the excuse that head dress wasn't to be worn in vehicles in case it slipped down over ones eyes, obscured one's vision leading to an accident. What tripe, the damn thing should be able to stay in in a Force 7, so that doesn't wash. Perhaps it's the female influence, maybe they're afraid of upsetting the girlies and making them appear military. No, that can't be it, nothing looks less military and than a crab in uniform, regardless of gender, rank or trade.

Get a grip. Wear your uniform with pride, wherever and whenever you can, including head dress.

[Confucius]

I think part of the objection is calling a hat 'head-dress'. The only people that I hear that use that term without a trace of irony are the very same that have an apoplectic fit when others refer to (such items as) gas masks, and bullets in guns. Of course the more wound up they get, the more one uses the term.

Dictionary.com's descriptions of "head-dress" cannot help but raise a smirk though:

1. A covering or ornament for the head.
2. A hairdo; a coiffure.

:D

So get yer tiaras out and head off down the hairdressers for a lovely big perm.

[JessTheDog]

The battle of subordinates against authority over trivia has been fought over millenia - with the rulers invariably retaining the upper hand. I bet Scipio's legions grumbled, as did the Carthaginians and so on throughout history - except when they had more pressing things to worry about, such as battles.

The root cause is probably the constant and indescribably frustrating ability of authority to focus on minutae - such as wearing a hat for 10-15 seconds (I don't know for how long exactly) whilst neglecting other concerns, such as a system that doesn't pay you, cutbacks and overstretch, increasing FQ charges etc.

Long may it continue! When the troops stop grumbling, that is when to worry.

[Maple 01]

I have had a life. If you are indeed military, I suggest you should now look for one more suited to your own personal standards. You certainly don't live up to mine.

:{ :{ :{

Sir, you cut me to the quick! If niff-naff and trivia is what floats your boat so be it - I'd rather have a boss that tried to do something about overstretch/shortage of kit or manpower/morale rather than worrying about the small stuff. Sorry, I prize operational efficiency above bull****. It has been my experiance that treating people like adults and cutting them some slack gets better results in the long run, rather than taking man-management tips from Blackadder's Wellington. Or perhaps we should re-introduce stocks to keep chins up and smart heavy wool red tunics for the chaps in Afghanistan?

Orders is orders?
Face the front and don't ask questions?
I was only obeying orders?

nothing looks less military and than a crab in uniform, regardless of gender, rank or trade.

You say that as if it's a bad thing, long may it stay so, substance over image!

[BellEndBob]

Was at Red Flag a few years ago. Walking behind 6 RAF types. 6 different variations on the uniform (all scruffy, only 2 wearing hats). 6 different levels of clinical obesity. Utter shambles. Surprised anyone takes you seriously.

Add to that, disloyalty to your CO by some on here.

Class act.


Well done. :D

[Skeleton]

Bring it on Bellend.
How about we have a rig of the day.
How about we all get issued the same kit.
How about the RAF no longer get everyone's cast off's. Blue Jackets anyone via the ambulance service, or the farcical boots the army had refused.
Fully agree about Red Flag thats how you spotted the RAF, we were all dressed differently.
Not a case of not supporting the CO, this problem has gone on for years. Getting people to put there hats on when there on a bus I have no problem with.
Getting the RAF all dressed the same may take a while longer i fear.

[Navaleye]

I think this is getting a little too personal. Endex.

[Roadster280]

I think this is getting a little too personal. Endex.

Agree the attacks are becoming personal, and no need for that. However -

If your CO says "Hats on", then it's "Hats on".

If your CO says "Parade at 0600 in Issue PT Kit" then see you at 0600. In Issue PT Kit.

If your CO says "Parade at 0600 in Issue PT kit wearing SD Hats", then perfectly reasonably, one of his DIRECT SUBORDINATES should "have a word". After parading of course.

Gents, it's the military. Age old thing. "Defend, not practice democracy".

Leaders will emerge. Some may be promoted beyond their capacity. I'd like to think that the RAF has now been around long enough to recognise its future senior leaders.

For now, get your f***ing hat on. Sir(s).

[Skeleton]

Well said Roadstar.
Trouble is once out of the airfield, and into the domestic sites getting the RAF to dress the same would cost heartache and money.
I bet its been looked at for years over, I still can't see whats wrong with the Navy way, "you will wear this today"
Tough titty if you get cold or your hot because you have to wear your jumper.
Before anyone says it, the Navy and Army have pilots to - But they wear the rig of the day when there not flying, and that includes all the trips across station that RAF pilots / aircrew insist on doing in flying suits - because I am flying in 3 hours / days, and the same applies to groundcrew and the dark blue shirts that need no tie.
A pop at our chiefs - yes, it would be nice if we all dressed the same. Maybe then the pride and the tradition the other two services correctly accuse us not of having would be batted back.

[foldingwings]

And I don't think it was very clever identifying the individual.

Rather too late for that as the individual was identified in the initial post that launched this thread. Staish + ISK = one person only!

Thus your 3 posts in the last 36 hrs have just fuelled the flames. Suggest therefore that you get off your sanctimonious high horse and avoid threads like this if you don't like it. That's what I do!;)

[Maple 01]

So pride is all about wearing the same uniform and behaving is 'a smart military style' - like the army and navy? Bull, it's bombs on target against all the odds, it's about keeping the a/c serviceable by whatever means - our sole purpose is to generate air power anything else is ancillary

A while back (post GW1) there was a series of letters in the RAF news about this very subject, there had been a photo of some plumbers clustered around a Tonka in somewhere sandy, an anally retentive SWO had written in to chastise the sqn for looking like a bunch of pirates (bandanas, cut-off combats, sunglasses etc) An old boy wrote in to say he'd been the SEngO on a Hurricane Squadron in the DAF and didn't give a toss about way the boys looked like as long as they were comfortable and could do their job - just like in his day. Was he lacking in pride?

[Gainesy]

Was the Station Commander on Sunderlands? He appears to have a bit of mooring rope tangled around his shoulder.:confused:

[JessTheDog]

In the military, one has to do as one is told, but there is no obligation to either enjoy doing it or to refrain from grumbling about it. Perhaps there was in the Soviet Union....

[teeteringhead]

Was at Red Flag a few years ago. Walking behind 6 RAF types. 6 different variations on the uniform (all scruffy, only 2 wearing hats). 6 different levels of clinical obesity. Utter shambles. Surprised anyone takes you seriously.
... perhaps some judge the performance on a Flag more important than the appearance....

I think the Buccs were pretty scruffy on Flag too - on the ground .....;)

[Beeayeate]

This is all so trivial. Grown men wittering on about a 'hats to be worn' order. Jeese, what the ****'s the officers of today's RAF coming to! To let such a trivial thing fester in your mind to extent you get this exercised over it, well . . . It's not only lamentable, it's pathetic.



.

[Climebear]

This is all so trivial. Grown men wittering on about a 'hats to be worn' order. Jeese, what the ****'s the officers of today's RAF coming to! To let such a trivial thing fester in your mind to extent you get this exercised over it, well . . . It's not only lamentable, it's pathetic.
.
It could be worse, they might have to wear their hats while washing an MT car.
MT Rant thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=210375&highlight=car+wash)
:ok:

[Northern Circuit]

Larf...?

I nearly washed an MT Wagon:E :E




P.S dont ya hate it when someone beats you to it?

[jonny5]

wotta,
i think you should have just worn the headgear but i do agree your staish should be dealing with big issues not trivial and pointless issues as said.
Beagel suggest you stop telling people to leave and maybe direct that comment to the staish who obviously has far too much time on his hands and clearly isnt leaving menial ans pathetic orders like you must wear your hat to the SWO, we all know they love hacking people off!

[An Teallach]

Clockwork Mouse wrote:If you are indeed military, I suggest you should now look for one more suited to your own personal standards. You certainly don't live up to mine.

Sorry, but that has to take the biscuit as one of the most sanctimonious bits of tripe ever posted on PPRuNe. I'll bet you were a bundle of laughs to work with! :rolleyes:

[Tourist]

Gentlemen. (I use the term ironically)

You are an embarrasment your service.

Members of all three services are currently living and dying in sh1te conditions in war zones, and you whinge about the irritation and inconvenience of wearing a cap to your crew bus.

You should be ashamed.

[South Bound]

:D :D :D

JFDI

[stiknruda]

Tourist, well said!

[TheMightyHunter]

You are missing the point, I am away in those conditions and this thread is managing to consistantly raise my morale for short periods of time while I see the blunt perspective versus the aircrew one.

Fab, lets keep it going.

[jonny5]

Tourist,
the point is that this staish and others are far too concerned with irrelevant issues and seem to do very little if anything about actual problems on their base!:ugh:

[South Bound]

So start a thread about the real issues then and stop whinging about wearing uniform. Can't believe people need to be told.

[Confucius]

Threads should be allowed to ebb and flow as with any good 'conversation', rather than stick rigidly to the thread title.

[South Bound]

C

agreed, but most of this has been fairly personal stuff aimed at one individual. If there is a genuine gripe, cool, bring it on let's chat about that, but not because someone is made to wear a hat. This is not about hats, it is about a bunch of people whinging because they don't think the rules apply to them, that they are somehow special. They are not special, should just put the bloody thing on their heads, look smart and get on with their jobs. Find something meaningful to whinge about, because quite frankly it is all a bit embarrassing that people need to be told...

It is not the Staish worrying about an irrelevent issue here...

[Had Enough 77]

I think that people need to realise that this is not realy about the hats topic, it is the fact that all the aircrew at ISK are working their buts off at home and in the desert, they have been hit over the past 2 years with so much nif naf and trivia that has driven morale down to absolute zero.
Before all people come in and say 'well you should leave' i did and not one person i spoke to berated me in any way. The general comment was that if they could do it they would.
I think this last decree was more like the straw that broke the camels back.
Many comments on this thread refer to being military and looking smart. Come on fellas we live in the 21st century, we are here as said before 'to provide air power'. I understand that many of the older generation and Army/Navy see smartness as promoting a picture of operational effectiveness, this is a flawed opinion in my view. The air force is completely different from what it was twenty /thirty years ago, different people and differnet tasks so you need to know this to comment on it. We need to have a contented workplace to work in which makes people work better at their own job. This is not the case.
Put my hard hat on now and wait for replies!:rolleyes:
P.S Southside how are your rose tinted spectacles?

[Radar Riser]

I don't mind wearing a hat in a bus.

As long as the scuffers wear theirs when they walk the 50 yards from the police flight to the guard room. They are on show to the general public on that route and it's a lot further than the 3 yards Ops to bus trek!

Still, as long as the air force is concentrating on the important issues.

RR

PS Can't help feeling that a bluntie made the decision and the Staish just signed the order without reading it. Come on blunties, bring it on!

[A2QFI]

With, I hope, a fairly detached view on this matter I think it is fine for the Stn Cdr to address this 'problem', if that is what it is to him, so long as there is nothing else wrong on the base. How many days does it take to get a Works service done on a building, or in what used to called married quarters? If any messes are working 24 hours to support the work of the station, is the food acceptable at all times of day and night. What is the standard of the station's support to the families of those on long detachments etc? If wearing hats in crew buses in his only problem then IKS must be a very efficient and happy station!

[PAMCC]

M01

If you behaved in such a disloyal, unbecoming and insubordinate manner, you would not deserve to be an officer. How would you expect your subordinates to behave when you had to give an unpopular order and how would you react if they behaved towards you as the posters on this thread have done? We are supposed to be a disciplined military force, for God's sake.

I have had a life. If you are indeed military, I suggest you should now look for one more suited to your own personal standards. You certainly don't live up to mine.

Mouse,

You shoudn't make assumptions on an open public forum.
This man has deeply upset Officers, non officers, civilians and volunteers on the station as well as many who live in the area that have come into contact with him. For some, a forum like this is the only way they can have their say without petty retribution.

It therefore follows that many people writing here do not have to even consider living up or down to your standards. However, if your standards sit in the same area as those of the CO of ISK, then I for one, have standards much higher.

Rank does not give a right to loyalty and respect. Those two items have to be earned. For those outside the military but who work and live close by them, petty actions by a senior officer are seen to be a disgrace by someone who is being paid by the tax payer..........and I'm not talking about wearing hats here as I'm on the side of, 'if it's part of the uniform, wear it'.

[South Bound]

(If that last comment was meant for me, I really must change my name so as not to be confused with Southside....)

Same argument stands - let's talk about what is so different at ISK so as to make everyone there special so they can be scruffy if they choose. I do not agree that the RAF has changed so much that we don't need a Uniform anymore, if we have a uniform it should be worn properly. But apparently that is not the issue, so come on, what is the issue at ISK, why is everyone so much worse off than the rest of the RAF?

[An Teallach]

While we're on about standards, what has the CO of ISK got against the definite article?
http://www.kinloss-raf.co.uk/stncdr.htm
The main task of Station, situated on the Moray Firth coastline in north-east Scotland, is to be the main operating base for the Nimrod MR2 Force:
I'll get my coat ...

[Had Enough 77]

Many apologies south bound for confusing you with southside, probalby a good idea to change your name avoid the same misyake again!!!!

I never said that ISK is any worse off than other RAF station. Everyone is working their butts off but from talking to colleagues around the airforce who are working their butts off as well, they don't get the same amount of morale saping niff naff coming from a source that you would expect to have more important things to do. There seems to be an impression that all the aircrew walk around ISK in some sort of weird, concoction of uniform which is not true. As i said before it is not about 'hats' it is the culmination of stupid morale saping events that lead to this thread.

Hope this puts youat ease SOUTH BOUND. ( sorry about the south side thing again.):O

[teeteringhead]

Can't spell "browse" in the last line either.........

[The Gorilla]

My experience of such matters over a mind numbing 28 years is that that the hats issue is but the tip of a mighty iceberg. I suspect much more is going on here than can be revealed on a public forum. If people can find relief in whinging anonymously then magic our Morris! It works for me. As for the personal stuff? If you put yourself into the public domain then it goes with the territory, tough!

And oh yes, when leadership goes horribly wrong they tend to pick on niff naff to try and divert attention from the things that really matter!

:rolleyes:

[PAMCC]

Couldn't agree more. Especially your last paragraph. :ok:
Did someone say he was going to Eastern? Or is that just a rumour?

[thunderbird7]

Could somebody pm me his name - having left a while ago, I'm curious to know which of my contempories is making such an a**e of himself. Aaaah! I miss it so much:rolleyes:

[Navaleye]

Sorry guys, I like the banter as much as anyone, but mud slinging at a named serving officer who cannot defend himself in a public forum is just not on. So please wind your necks in.

[Clockwork Mouse]

NEye
Exactly. That is precisely the point I have been making. As those slinging the mud also appear to be serving officers, they are the ones who have lost the plot. This thread is disgraceful.

[airborne_artist]

The first lesson should have been "If you can't take a joke you really should not have joined."

Clearly the complainers have had an easy life munching pies/pizzas.

Time to wake up, smell the cordite, and get a life.

[jindabyne]

Agree Mouse- bit like the distasteful thread concerning the Scottish Gp Capt.
Mods please take note

[South Bound]

Yep, talk about issues, don't bitch about people openly.

[An Teallach]

Quite right. In my day if the troops whined, I'd march them out into the snow for a few days - then they were only too glad to come back and scrub out a nice, warm sh1thouse. So, you lot ...
http://www.laurel-and-hardy-museum.co.uk/binaries/ollie.jpg
"Get your bleedin' 'ats on!"

[PAMCC]

I'm at a loss as to how anyone can come to the conclusion that those who are complaining are serving officers. Can someone explain the logic that is being used here?

This is a public forum and can be read and used by anyone in the public. Amazing as it may seem, there are people in this world who are not serving officers and gosh, not even members of the armed forces; who nevertheless, have a interest in military matters and whose lives are directly affected by those matters. Now surely some of you aren't suggesting that this part of the forum is a closed shop to all but those of serving rank are you?

It could well be that those people who are complaining have a genuine axe to grind and that this forum is their only way of doing so, without, as I have said before, the fear of petty retribution. There are many people whose jobs and livlihoods are combined with ISK. As, apparently, CO ISK is not averse to some overt mudslinging against those unable to defend themselves against his directives, it isn't surprising that this thread has taken the turn that it has.

Sorry to return to the subject of headgear :) but if the cap of ineptitude fits, then he that is inept shall end up wearing it.

[Flap62]

Skeleton,

Sorry fella, I've tried but your posts are a nightmare!

There, their, they're.

Your, you're.

Please make a bit of an effort to use one of the above in the correct context every now and then.

[Skeleton]

Skeleton,
Sorry fella, I've tried but your posts are a nightmare!
There, their, they're.
Your, you're.
Please make a bit of an effort to use one of the above in the correct context every now and then.

Flap62 :) Love it. But your right!!

[Beeayeate]

But your right!!
His right what?

:confused:

[Skeleton]

His right what?
:confused:

I cnt spel for tofe!!

[Splash Coxswain]

Things could be worse! They could get detached to Seeb and meet the new DetCo there!

What? They do go to Seeb? Ooooops!

[TheMightyHunter]

Dont get me started on him, smocks....sorry shirts...tucked in at all times!!
I think you will find that the correct way of wearing said "smock" is to be un-tucked.

correct me if i am wrong which i am sure many of you will!!!

[Skeleton]

:} Hunter you mean that. The green smock you wear tucked in?
Now theres a variation I have never heard of. RAF service dress version 965!!!!


Spell checked just for Flap!! :}

[JessTheDog]

Gentlemen. (I use the term ironically)

You are an embarrasment your service.

Members of all three services are currently living and dying in sh1te conditions in war zones, and you whinge about the irritation and inconvenience of wearing a cap to your crew bus.

You should be ashamed.

Very true. And when the Secretary of State cannot be bothered to speak to the House of Commons on the issue of said war zones, and is likely to announce an increase in troops via written statement seconds before the recess, one can see the rot starts at the very top.

[PAMCC]

Oh My G.........rot from the top.........bet that means that CO ISK will get promoted so that he can carry on from further up.:eek:

Unless that comment about Eastern Airways was true ????

[Clockwork Mouse]

PAMCC
Glad to see you are taking your own advice and not making assumptions in an open forum.

[nigegilb]

Guys I am not kidding, I am thinking of rejoining, eating loads of pies and volunteering to fly the mighty hunter. I haven't laughed so much in ages.
Fantastic, especially half of Laurel and Hardy....

[Blacksheep]

SAC F*ckwit, Bomber Command bod on Exercise Mickey at Lyneham, has missed the bus for lunch. He walks, in the pouring rain, wearing - perhaps appropriately, but definitely illegally - filthy 2nd hand cold weather parka, 2nd hand boots and 2nd hand sea-boot socks. His beret is folded neatly in his epaulette, with the parka hood up and the beaver tail hanging down behind. His hands are in his pockets (cold innit?) Staff car with flag screeches to a halt alongside and a red faced Group Captain leans across and flings the nearside door open. SAC F*ckwit leaps smartly into front seat beside the Staish "Thanks very much Sir! Its jolly kind of you!" Staish proceeds home for lunch, dropping the genial F*ckwit off at the Airmen's Mess on the way. I mean, what else could he do?

In the afternoon Detachment Commander cops an invitation to Station HQ. Then we all cop a monster bollocking. Touché. C'est la vie and all that.

I reckon the ISK Staish has his hat on the right way round. If you want to be a scruff, expect a bollocking, but don't make a fuss about it. Its just a laugh and there's more important things in life. Like women and beer for instance.

[jonny5]

Flap,
moaning about grammar!

You MUST be a bluntie!:ok:

[Flap62]

Bluntness is just a state of mind!

[RubiC Cube]

So what's new? There have always been staishs complaining about dress regulations not being adhered to. In my long experience, it's always those who aren't very good at their jobs who aren't professional in all respects, like wearing hats in appropriate locations. Just buckle down, do the little things well and just maybe the big ones will be a little bit easier.

[Charlie Luncher]

PAMCC
Thats not quite how it went down but lets not let the truth or emotion get in the way of a good story. The function exists for the participants to thank those that have assisted the visiting crews and renew camaraderie and friendships amongst the competitors. This year was somewhat different, I don't know who chose to change it. One thing I do know however is that morale at ISK is the lowest I have ever seen it and it saddens me having spent a lot of years there. I think the hat thing is as others have said a venting of anger but also frustration. Is it due to the command chain, I dont know but command starts at LAC and goes all the way to the very top, thus everyone up to Trust me Tone should maybe listen to their troops and grasp the nettle or the rod depending on what is needed.
As for Aircrew being scruffy it is one of the core skills needed long may it continue. As for our USA cousins they have to be deemed smart at something and they do have nice smart clothes.:eek:
Charlie sends

[santiago15]

For a start no, I am not the son of Southside - nor am I OC ISK. However, I have 2 points:

a) The order to wear hats on buses is a myth. If it isn't, it hasn't reached me or anybody I know at ISK!

b) The reports about morale at ISK being at an all-time low maybe true; however, I believe the aircrew PVR* rates at ISK are significantly lower than those at Brize or Lyneham. Suggestive, perhaps, that the morale of the Stn is reflective of the RAF as a whole not a direct function of the Staish?

* The Staish's recent PVR noted

[PPRuNeUser0139]

I can't believe the self-serving rot talked by some posters here.. I recently spoke to an old mate who is still in and he told me that he is now being paid £61k.. He's a flt lt nav.
So it can't be the pay that is causing the low morale.. What is it then..? Having to go on 'ops'? Isn't that what you joined for? Or was it the thought of all that go-karting or sub aqua?
Being a good operator is not just about striving for excellence in the air - it's also setting an example on the ground. Bimbling around on the ground with flying boots that have never seen shoe polish, with a tatty hat, a non-standard T shirt, with a flying suit from Badges-U-Like and a bit of egg yolk down the front says unprofessional and lack of self discipline to me. As a nation, we are generally scruffy - but that's no reason for anyone in the military to aspire to scruffiness. And before you think who's this sanctimonious tw*t, I was once pulled up by the SWO for not fastening up my cw flying jacket when riding my bike on the station. He was absolutely right. (on reflection!)
There's also the suggestion that not wearing a hat between the Ops Block and the crew coach is making some sort of statement. You're right - it does. It says the person making it needs to get real. The standard of uniform in the RAF is not a matter of personal choice. It's called 'uniform' for a reason. If you can't conform, then leave and start looking for that job outside that pays £61k. Any organisation will have a few people who kick against the rules and the RAF has its share. They shouldn't be surprised that the ISK staish has reacted. High time the whingers grew up and joined the rest of the air force. All power to his elbow.
Needless to say I have no connection with any of the events on this thread.
Feel better for that!
sv

[PAMCC]

>Thats not quite how it went down but lets not let the truth or emotion get in the way of a good story. <

Charlie Luncher:

Exactly which bit wasn't true? You don't say. I was there and saw the ambulences, a guy with a badly cut face, blood streaming down it, the unconcious folk and the glass and muck all over the hangar floor.

I understand the ethos of the party and think it's a great, but this time it all fell apart. I felt sincerely sorry for the crews and folk who had put so much work into it. However, the fact remains that the overly free flow of alcohol was a major factor and it could have been stemmed, without spoiling the party. However, this needed to be done from a position of authority. Instead I saw the Staish ISK watching it all go down and doing nothing. I'm not saying that he should have intervened personally, but he could have done so quietly using his authority to get personel to ease up on things a bit.

It was a huge shame that such an event was allowed to descend into such a shambles. Talking to some of the crews the following day, I am not alone in my sentiments.

I agree wholeheartedly, with everything else you said though :D

[buoy15]

An Teallach
Not quite true
You need to look at the Mission Statement for the Station which was brought on by the EU and the Nobs at Main Buildind some 10+ years ago. This has to be supported by the crass, infantile and embarrassing Directives from every section on the unit to support this cr*p
The Nimrod capabillity has changed by leaps and bounds since then, but the statement remains the same
In fairness to the present Staish, who I know well; he is not the first who has tried to maintain Military Standards on his unit when things get very busy - it's during these times that standards can slip - A diplomatic and subtle approach is to use the middle management chain of command to sort this for you - then they take the flak - if he has to come up front to sort it, then his people are letting him down
I remember one stroppy FS aircrew who insisted that putting polish on his flying boots would create a fire risk on the ac - I told him to take his head for a sh*t - go to flying clothing and use the non-flammable silicone polish - and that I would also be writing his next report
As in civvy street, we have the odd awkward bast*rd who wants to buck the system, let down the crew and and challenge authority - I am delighted to say that I have p*ssed off an awful lot of these people over the years in support of Service standards, but also to their benefit - that FS eventually got commissioned
Still loving many, Trusting a few, but paddling my own canoe

[An Teallach]

Buoy15 wrote:An Teallach Not quite true. You need to look at ...
Thanks for that Buoy15, but I'm having some difficulty relating it to anything I've posted on this thread. :confused: