Delays into CYYC? [Archive]

shakazulu

6th Jul 2006, 19:49

My understanding is that the YEG Center controllers as well as the YYC tower, approach, etc. guys and gals like protecting their overtime too much for the general good of all. So instead of getting the correct amount of employees to do the given job, they get to work overtime whenever they want, but the rub is that you then get days when there simply aren't enough people to do the job. Anyone ever hear of "flow control" for northbound aircraft out of Calgary and Edmonton? That's where that comes from.
Someone ought to point some environmental group towards these guys; maybe that's the way to solve the problem. How much fuel is burned as a/c sit on taxiways, aprons, etc. waiting for their "flow time". Just another case of the tail wagging the dog - now wait, where have I seen that before??

RB211-524G

7th Jul 2006, 00:00

This is what I have also heard. As well, I have heard from someone who worked in Vancouver Centre for many years that the Edm. Centre people have a terrible rep within ATC. That being said as a pilot who deals with Edm Centre almost on a daily basis, they are in fact HORRIBLE AT WHAT THEY DO!!!! I have no idea why WJ,AC,JAZZ,etc... has not filed official complaints. How many times have I heard coming into yyc "the ceilings 010OVC, we're down to one runway, we're going to need you to slow down to 160KTS!!!! to make a crossing time or hold for the next hour" or "I'm going to vector you all over the sky because I can't figure any other way to get the spacing I need. What the f*ck, they are pathetic!!!! Ok. what about not closing IFR flight plans that originate in BC, even when i specifically say "please close and cancel my flight plan" Brutal!!!! Edmonton Centre is an embarassment to Canadian Aviation and is in some serious work. ok enough rant.,

Glacier1900

7th Jul 2006, 00:34

It's absolutely no different anywhere else in Canada. To make the understatement of the century ....our system is in serious need for an overhaul. VMC day into YVR/YYC/YEG, "slow as much as possible" then 10 min later "Go as fast as you can". Left hand, i'd like you to meet right hand.

saudipc-9

7th Jul 2006, 02:55

Well for having the worlds second largest airspace we sure have the most complex rules for flying in it. I really don't see why we couldn't be like the US and have VFR up to FL180.
I know around YMJ. YQR, YYN and YXE we have a number of problems with ATC. They often have the same guy controling all of the same airspace especially YQR and YXE. They actually made us file flight plans to go VFR from YMJ to YQR. What a crock of sh!T. However, not all of the guys and gals controlling are knobs, but good god once in a while it's obvious the controller needs to go and spank his monkey for some stress relief.:ugh:

Number2

7th Jul 2006, 06:04

Some of the comments are a little harsh I feel. From what I understand, YEG Centre is working 2-man sectors (i.e. Data & radar positions) as single man sectors for a large proportion of the day due to lack of manning. I'm not sure if other centres have the same policy/problem. There are some pretty tired people at the Centre that probably wouldn't choose to work the maximum amount of overtime - if they had a choice. This has a knock-on effect on ability to train and the downward spiral continues.

Maybe, some people on here, if they use the facility regularly, should keep a day free and visit the centre. They might have a better appreciation of what's happening 'behind the scenes'.

My rant over!

Ray Darr

7th Jul 2006, 10:43

Look at the real issue. Nav Can is doing what any company is wanting to do: Minimum levels of staffing (dangerously min...) + Max time in the seat = max profits divided by the risk of this dangerous practice possibly resulting in AN ACCIDENT!! :=

NAV CAN - you read these posts - HOW ABOUT GETTING SOME MORE BODY'S FOR THOSE SEATS?? Your worker-bees are burned out, and it shows. Care to comment???

It's certain people at Nav Can's upper mis-management that needs a kick in the nuts over this, not the guys n gals watching the scope-blips.

~ R.D.

Number2

7th Jul 2006, 15:47

'They actually made us file flight plans to go VFR from YMJ to YQR'
Saudipc-9
With all due respect, you clearly don't realise how much that can reduce workload thus allowing the controller to provide his best service to all.
If you don't file, the controller may have to input the details of your flight into the system just to tag up the aircraft on the radar. That, as you can probably understand, can be a distraction.

Jerricho

7th Jul 2006, 19:12

They often have the same guy controling all of the same airspace especially YQR and YXE. They actually made us file flight plans to go VFR from YMJ to YQR. What a crock of sh!T.

I respectfully ask WHO "made you file VFR" and when did this happen?

Number2

8th Jul 2006, 01:14

Have we scared him off?

saudipc-9

8th Jul 2006, 02:43

Nope not scared off just been away from the puter. Ok All my flight details are kept at sqn ops and do not need to be recorded. YWG controlers are well aware of this being military flights and they are very used to us beating up the YQR pattern. Also my understanding that it was YWG who dictated that we shall file VFR flight plans to go from YMJ to YQR. Now granted this does not happen all the time and when I had to do it last it was during night flying and I know that it is greater than 25nm but being we have been flying out of YMJ to YQR for going on 70 years so that little issue is taken care of by telling our tower controllers that we are going to YQR and will be back shortly.

Jerricho

8th Jul 2006, 08:25

Also my understanding that it was YWG who dictated that we shall file VFR flight plans to go from YMJ to YQR.

Ahhhh, the plot thickens. Night flying you say........I'm guessing the terminal service had closed down for the night and perhaps the tower as well. Outside of Terminal hours, the airspace is handed over to enroute (is this your reference to "the one guy controlling the same airspace"?). Or is the fact that YQR and YXE Terminal services are sometimes combined onto the one position workload permitting? You mention "problems with ATC?" Civvy or Mil? And perhaps you would like to expand a little on these perceived "problems" rather than a blanket statement.

Now this is a very simplified description of what goes on (it is 0330 in the morning), but you mil guys stooging around in MJ airspace are already VFR are you not? Standard procedure is for the MJ contrller to give the civvy controller a point out along the lines of "See Bandit 21 there at FL200, wants a high approach at Regina........your control". IFR clearance is issued by the civvy controller while the flight is still in MJ airspace, approaches done, back to MJ.

I'm not trying to indulge in a "tit-for-tat" argument here, but you comment regarding the controller's need to knock one out in stress relief is not really founded in fact, is it? :rolleyes: And you are certainly welcome to come fro a visit to YWG centre just to see what goes on.

saudipc-9

9th Jul 2006, 20:41

I’m not trying to indulge in a "tit-for-tat" argument here, but you comment regarding the controller's need to knock one out in stress relief is not really founded in fact, is it?
Well originally meant tongue in cheek but as you have raised the question... The attitude of some civic ATC does leave me with the impression that they either hate their jobs or have been put out of sorts by someone actually asking to shoot a couple of approaches. Again, this is not all folks but there do seem to be more than a few controllers who are regularly PO’d.
The problem I am referring to is the fact that civi ATC regularly tells the BIG2 how many aircraft they will accept into places like YQR for no good reason. Do they tell AC or West jet that they cannot fly there?? No.
I am not talking a large number of aircraft for an extended period of time each shooting a couple of approaches either. The tail it seems is wagging the dog and not the other way around.
When we are trying to accomplish training, this can have a major impact on our operations and limiting aircraft makes it our problem when in fact ATC needs to change their ops to accommodate.
Our military ATC also has its own issues but they are not what this thread was started about.
I have been in YEG centre and think that the ladies and gents there do a good job as do most of the controllers be they tower or radar. However, I don't appreciate attitude or ATC dictating operations that might not be convenient for them.
Filing a VFR flight plan has nothing to do with getting an approach and we do no tell ATC in YMJ which approach we wish to fly in YQR. If it is a full up IFR mission, we will file a full IFR flight plan.

Jerricho

9th Jul 2006, 21:07

However, I don't appreciate attitude or ATC dictating operations that might not be convenient for them
:rolleyes:
If you honestly thing that any request for approaches is based on "convenience" for the controller, then I may as well stop this discussion now............

I pose this to you. Do you think that perhaps your requests for approaches have been declined for operational reasons? Traffic at the airport? Weather? Staffing? Perhaps you need a refresher on what the C in "ATC" stands for. I also find it amusing you can glean the "attitude" of a controller from up there in the cockpit. What do you base your "PO'd" assertion on? You haven't really answered anything from my previous post regarding instances when you have been refused.

The problem I am referring to is the fact that civi ATC regularly tells the BIG2 how many aircraft they will accept into places like YQR for no good reason. Do they tell AC or West jet that they cannot fly there?? No.
Sorry to be so crass, but that is just plain bull****. Once again, no good reason? Sorry mate, you mention attitude earlier.......sounds like yours needs a bit of adjustment.

I've been doing a bit of a scouting mission over the last couple of days, asking both terminal and enroute controllers have they every denied a request for approaches at either YXE or YQR (btw, I work YXE terminal, so I'm including myself here). I have had 2 responses in the affirmative, and they were during the recent CAATS ORD at Winnipeg Centre (there was a NOTAM out......you may or may not have seen it :rolleyes: ). Or is that one of the "no good reasons" you mention. I personally have never denied on. I'll do a little more asking around for you, just to be sure. Then again, if you actually visited Winnipeg Centre....... you know, the place you're being so eloquent about (as that's where YQR and YXE airspace is controller from), you could ask around yourself.

(I humbly apologise to the thread starter and other contributors to this thread for this unfortunate hijack)

saudipc-9

9th Jul 2006, 21:46

Jerricho,
You clearly have your hackles raised and need to relax;)

You haven't really answered anything from my previous post regarding instances when you have been refused.

I never said in any of my posts that I had been refused an approach!! What I did say was that AT"C" had told us that they would not accept any more than "4" aircraft going into YQR. Do I need to clarify any futher??

I also find it amusing you can glean the "attitude" of a controller from up there in the cockpit. What do you base your "PO'd" assertion on?

I'm glad that I could provide you with some entertainment. However, have you never been talking on a telephone and received attitude? The tone and abruptness which that person is using. If you haven't then I'm very happy for you but I know that others reading this thread know exactly what I am writing about.

Then again, if you actually visited Winnipeg Centre....... you know, the place you're being so eloquent about (as that's where YQR and YXE airspace is controller from), you could ask around yourself.

to which I wrote in my last post

I have been in YEG centre and think that the ladies and gents there do a good job as do most of the controllers be they tower or radar

Which part of that quote did you find not eloquent? Ops sorry I guess YWG must be a very different place to work.

Jerricho, take a step back you are making this very personnel

Jerricho

9th Jul 2006, 22:23

I will give you this to muse over...........imagine somebody came on here and started questioning the flying abilities, airmanship or professionalism of either yourself or your flying buddies (I believe one of the terms you used was "knobs"), especially with accusations that are totally inaccurate. Comments like that will certainly elicit some form of emotional respose. The eloquence I refer to is your inference that ATC "limit" your operations for ****s and giggles, with "no good reason".

In an earlier post you mention problems with YXE.......now you're in my playground. Anyone at YWG centre will tell you I'm one of the easiest (if not a little insane) people to get along with, however I will not stand by and watch unfounded assumptions that are directed at the place I operate. (I've re-read what I have posted and concur, it does sound a little snippy.......perhaps I need to knock one out myself. Although, if you want to see personal, come over to Jet Blast).

BTW, I'm glad you envoked the "others reading this thread knowing exactly where you are coming from", as I have shown this to several controllers AND a couple of pilots. They all pretty much agree what's been posted sounds like a dummy has been chucked out of a pram because them big nasty Civilian controllers have nothing better to do than make the military's life miserable. As to the 4 approaches at a time......that is managerial policy and has nothing to do with the guy or girl with the headset on. There is a conspiracy theory behind that one, but here's neither the time nor place.

Mate, we're all on the same side and working together in that big sky. If you honestly think what you have posted above regarding controllers being "inconvenienced" is fact, then that's your prerogative, and I am sorry to see that.

Number2

9th Jul 2006, 22:55

'we're all on the same side'

Bloody hell - when did that start? Nobody told me! :)

Jerricho

9th Jul 2006, 23:01

Shhhh.......you'll get to read all about it in the next Nav Can propaganda magazine :}

Number2

9th Jul 2006, 23:03

But I always get the French copy! :)

Jerricho

9th Jul 2006, 23:07

The English version is on the other side

saudipc-9

9th Jul 2006, 23:09

As to the 4 approaches at a time......that is managerial policy and has nothing to do with the guy or girl with the headset on

So now, we finally are getting somewhere, but you feel uncomfortable saying why this is in effect. Fair enough, I suspect I know what you don't want to say, but I won't press the issue.

ATC "limit" your operations for ****s and giggles

Well if you consider military flight training ****s and giggles then I guess that tells me your perspective but I hope that I'm wrong.

I'm one of the easiest (if not a little insane) people to get along with

Well that makes two of us. I always say good morning/evening/night etc and say thank you for the service I receive from ATC. I know for sure my call sign is not on the blacklist! As far as some people being knobs yep.. I have worked with and flown with a few pilots who fit that description so don't worry, I don't limit that comment to ATC.

imagine somebody came on here and started questioning the flying abilities, airmanship or professionalism of either yourself or your flying buddies

I think this happens all the time :E but I don't worry about it.

They often have the same guy controlling all of the same airspace especially YQR and YXE. They actually made us file flight plans to go VFR from YMJ to YQR. What a crock of sh!T.

Ok fair enough, poorly written and note to self, -don't post after 3 glasses of wine and a couple of beers.

Look, I'm not trying to bust your chops or anyone else's, but I do know what I have experienced.

The training load in YMJ is going to be rising by about 1/3 in the coming year so any issues regarding the number of flights being allowed into civi airfields is going to be highlighted further and yes we are all on the same side.

Jerricho

9th Jul 2006, 23:15

"****s and Giggles" - slang term meaning "for the fun of it" ;)

Number2

9th Jul 2006, 23:56

'The English version is on the other side'

I know - it was meant to be a joke!!!!

Jerricho

10th Jul 2006, 16:02

That was for everybody elses' benefit ;)

shakazulu

10th Jul 2006, 20:54

So ah, just to get back to the point boys, and now that it does indeed appear that we have a live controller on the line, perhaps you Sir, could answer a question or two for me...as myself and maybe one or two of the other guys have noticed some delays - I would maybe point toward YYC for this, as a good example - and see a lot of time, fuel, patience wasted while we all wait - do the controllers that work for NAVCANADA have any influence over whether more people get hired or not? I have heard some pretty interesting things over the last 2-3 years...

1: regular tower people like those at smaller airports, can try out for a job at IFR Center, but if they fail, then they are not allowed back to what they were doing. In other words, they have to gamble on their own ability to get through the course, or face a career change. Seems like they don't want too many people trying out for those jobs...

2: once they get through the course and are engaged in their indoctrination period, and they are asked by the company to come in for an extra shift, they are strongly coerced by the same people who can fail them out of said indoc to NOT do extra, as it might take overtime away from some of the older, established controllers. If they go ahead and do it anyway, they are seen as not really "playing ball" and somehow get washed out of the program.

I ask because I think that if that is the case, it is pretty poor. It would reflect badly on the company NAVCANADA that they could either be allowing that kind of thing to go on, or even worse, that they are so out of touch with what is going on that they are unaware of it.
I don't know the answers to these questions hence I ask them. If I am out in left field, I do apologize. If there is an element of truth, maybe it's worth talking about. I have several friends who are controllers, although I haven't seen them for some time. They are a fine bunch and are without exception, very capable people. I have had my fair share of emergencies, and was and still am very very grateful for the timely and accurate guidance I got from ATC.

Jerricho

10th Jul 2006, 23:01

Shaka, as a "off-shore" controller who came to Canada from Blighty, I too heard some of the stories you refer to (and have seen them posted on this site as well).

Now, I can only speak for Winnipeg Centre, but controllers not checking people out to "protect their overtime" is pure garbage. Overtime can be nice now and then (especially in Winter when it's -30 out), but there's only so much you can work without adversely affecting your health, your sanity and your personal life. Summer is too short round here to be stuck inside (ain't wireless internet just the best thing ;) )

We as sector worker bees don't really have an influence over people getting hired or not. Recently there has been a change within Nav Can regarding IFR ab-initio training.......it is now done regionally at the centres (this is a different topic alltogether). The program is still in it's infancy.......

As to actually checking somebody out, there is a QTP (Qualification Training Program) that must be adhered to that outlines the training process for live OJI, the level of performance that must be met at the end of each phase (normally 20 days per phase, but that depends upon speciality) by the trainee. And at the end of the day, the person giving the nod is going to have to work next to the guy or gal they are giving the licence to.

The instance you refer to regarding moving to different units is known as "Seniority Bidding" (kinda like the airlines). You can apply/bid for a move up the ladder to a new position based on your seniority (you can go backwards once in your career, for instance a move from YYZ Terminal to YHZ Terminal or YVR Tower to YWG Tower). Now, I profess I don't know all the ins and outs of it, but with respect to training there are return rights on placements where you could request to go back to your old unit (and requalify) if things weren't quite working out. And sometimes it's all very well bidding on a new position/to another centre, but if the speciality you're trying to get out of is short staffed, then chances are you won't be released. I'm sure somebody else who know the whole thing a little better can explain it better.

shakazulu

11th Jul 2006, 12:27

Okay, thanks...

pair_of_pratts

11th Jul 2006, 19:41

Whats with the unpaid training, for sometimes up to a year and a half? I think that might keep some people away from a career with ATC.

Jerricho

11th Jul 2006, 20:59

I'm sure one or two pilots could address that question for you..........although I'm not sure where the year and a half comes from.

On completion of NCTI (VFR) or Regional Training School and commencement of OJI, salary commences.

pair_of_pratts

12th Jul 2006, 04:10

Sorry, I guess my question wasn't clear, because your answer made no sense; at least the first part.
It is my understanding that while in lovely Cornwall and then later at the assigned centre for training, you receive no pay (i.e. unpaid training). Once signed off, you begin to get paid salary. And this process could take as long as a year and a half. Unless you had no expenses or a wealthy spouse, it would be difficult to do for that long of a time. Is this the case or am I wrong?