Joining RAF ATCO

[Shamrock274]

Just writting for Advice

Ive just been browsing the RAF careeres website, I didnt quite understand something....(sorry if its a couple of dumb questions??)

1. If you want to be an ATCO do you have to joing as Flight Operayions Officer and then progress to ATC or can you apply directly for ATCO??

2. How long might the process take from interview to qualifying and is the ATCO training selection and process very different from civilian?? Is it very competitive to get in, are the selection tests similar to NATS

3. What is the pay like, during trainning and after, and what is the carrer progression like...... retirement age etc and how long do you have to serve abroad and at home etc.....

4. After serving in the RAF, how hard would it be to transition into civilian ATC.

I would be gratefull if anyone has more infor, please fel free to PM, i am genuinly interested in becoming an ATC, Im 27 and married , so im not eligible for Eurocontrol and beacause of family and personal reasons i cant apply till next year when im 28 and that leaves a very small window for NATS.....

Any help will be welcomed... thanks

[BDiONU]

4. After serving in the RAF, how hard would it be to transition into civilian ATC.
Extremely difficult, particularly given your current age.

BD

[ratty1]

Goto the AFCO and ask them.

[Shamrock274]

Goto the AFCO and ask them.

Sorry but who or what is AFCO??

[NightFlit]

...Armed Forces Careers Office... it tells you on the careers website (..or should)!

[FOMere2eternity]

Shamrock

AFCO is the Armed Forces Career Office - they will at least have a leaflet even if the bloke in the chair doesn't know the detail himself. But...

1. You will directly apply for ATC. Flight Ops is a different branch entirely. There are age limits but the RAF website or AFCO will tell you what they are. IMHO I don't think you're too old yet, but you haven't got long to play with.

2. You will be required to apply at the AFCO, which will take several months, then attend the Officers and Aircrew Selection Centre at Cranwell to do up to 3 days of selection tests including the one for ATC. After that you'll wait for a vacancy. Next you do Initial Officer Training ( about 4 months I think), followed fairly promptly by JATCC - the Joint Air Traffic Controllers Course, which I think is about 9-12 months long now.

3. Pay is pretty meagre to begin with, but when you reach Flight Lieutenant (automatically), your salary with be in the 30-40s. An ATC tower can be a bit of a back-stabbing place because there's an undue concentration of commissioned officers all vying to get on. If you get there you'll see. Promotion is arguably on merit an you will be required to rotationally do 4-month detachments to wherever we have ATC officers - Falklands, Balkans, Gulf etc.

4. In the RAF you will work civilian aircraft and are granted permission by the CAA. However, when you leave the RAF you have no licences whatsoever, so you're just as qualified as the next guy. I have heard some people say their licences cost them 30-40k when they left and, of course, age is an issue for CAA selection. In summary, if you're going to join the RAF as ATC at your age, I wouldn't think it was a tremendous route to the civil world.

As for you not being eligible for Eurocontrol because of personal reasons, if this is a nationality issue you need to be British to join the British Forces. If shamrock is a clue, you won't get in.

[JAG3]

Your thinking about the RAF and you don't even know what the AFCO is?

Go to the careers website again which does tell you the pay, retirement age, whether you can go straight to ATC officer.

''ATCO training selection and process very different from civilian?? Is it very competitive to get in, are the selection tests similar to NATS''- it's common sense and requires limited military knowledge to answer that. Sorry if I'm being a bit harsh but I find it outstanding that someone would even think of the RAF without using google or even doing some limited research.

Before anyone blasts me about asking for advice-my advice has been on the basis of personal opinions and some of the question he asked were a bit of a joke.

Sorry about being harsh but good luck anyway:ok:

[FOMere2eternity]

Bit harsh Jag - he does want to be an officer after all.

It's only recently that H&S took away the spoon that we feed them with.

:rolleyes:

[ratty1]

Whoa..........indeed that was harsh. Remember these questions you asked about becoming a civilian pilot? What are the educational requirements? Medical requirements? Way of life eg. hours, travel and culture? How to join? Do you need a PPL? RAF or Commercial? Is it true you have to pay £60,000 plus-how is a 18/19 yr old meant to afford that? Do you have to be good at physics and maths etc. I especially like the last one....Obviously, as you would put it, that was a joke question?

[JAG3]

Got me a good one there, its just anything to do with someone asking silly questions about the RAF peeves me off a bit because I stupidly have wanted the RAF for about 6 years and know quite a lot about the careers side of thing so I personally think that anyone seriously looking to join the RAF should know quite a lot about it. Regarding those question about civi-I done plenty of checks and searches regarding it ie.

Hours etc.-I done checks through the internet which brought different hours for a number of companies, culture-I personally think thats a question which is impossible to find out
Need PPl-asked this because I found sponsorship programmes that funded you through the whole process so wasn't sure as the forum talks about PPl
RAF or Comm-personal opinion needed for this, wasn't sure whether RAF would be regretful if I didn't get aircrew
£60,000-again this is down to confronting answers from other threads which states company funding or paying a lump sum
Physics or maths-again personal choice but I do admit it was asked before but with different answers each timeSorry about being a bit harsh:ok:

[Shamrock274]

FORMere2eternity and Nightflit thanks for the info guys, I have been to the my local careers office and they are closed till November, i dont live an Army or RAF base, so ive been planning to visit the nearest careers office which 60 milles away.




Got me a good one there, its just anything to do with someone asking silly questions about the RAF peeves me off a bit because I stupidly have wanted the RAF for about 6 years and know quite a lot about the careers side of thing so I personally think that anyone seriously looking to join the RAF should know quite a lot about it. Regarding those question about civi-I done plenty of checks and searches regarding it ie.
Hours etc.-I done checks through the internet which brought different hours for a number of companies, culture-I personally think thats a question which is impossible to find out
Need PPl-asked this because I found sponsorship programmes that funded you through the whole process so wasn't sure as the forum talks about PPl
RAF or Comm-personal opinion needed for this, wasn't sure whether RAF would be regretful if I didn't get aircrew
£60,000-again this is down to confronting answers from other threads which states company funding or paying a lump sum
Physics or maths-again personal choice but I do admit it was asked before but with different answers each timeSorry about being a bit harsh:ok:
JAG, Fair enough you calling me or my questions stupid.....
but some things are just an "in crowd thing", like AFCO, how am i supposed to know out of the blues what it stands for(I work in the medical field where we use a A LOT of abbreviations for stuff and we dont always remember all of them), I know about the careers office i just didnt know thats what its abbreviated to.... so i think your comment on this one is unjustified and presumptious.

... i have looked at the Air force careers page, i have been to my local careers office and there was a huge sign saying they are closed till November and so chatting to people here is part of my research and also getting peoples opinions before I make such an important decision

Before you get too comfortable on your high horse mate, just know that we are all knowledgeble and gifted in different things mate. This might be your area of expertise but one day mate you will be in my position and we will see how you enjoy being frowned and looked down upon.....
_______________________
What goes around, comes around.

[BEagle]

Some years ago, we successfully achieved JAA recognition for experienced military pilots, so that now the transition to a civil licence is much easier and cheaper than hitherto. For some it just means a Class 1 medical, an observed IRT and an Air Law & Op Procs. exam, pay the money and that's it....

The intention was that similar 'skills and experience gained in military service' receiving accreditation would also extend to other branches, including ATC.

Has any progress been made in this direction yet? If not, one wonders why not.

[anotherthing]

Beagle -

If you can show that you have held a military ATC licence then you are exempt from navigation and met exams... otherwise you do the same course.

Civvy ATC is a hell of a lot different from Mil - even basics such as aerodrome control and how we as civvies use strips instead of the old pin boards etc etc.

Mil guys have to learn all about civvy operations, including the ANO etc etc.

It's not like flying multi engine in the forces then transitioning to type rating in a civvy aircraft - flying is flying at the end of the day and if you can do it, you can do it (in fact I would go as far as to say if you can do it in the Mil, then as long as you can stand being civilianised you will have no probs on civvy street performing the task... unlike the otherway around. Most mil flying is far more involved and intense than sitting on an airbus reading the newspaper during cruise and monitoring Ts and Ps).

The controlling is totally different and to go from one to the other in either direction would need the training - how many civvies have to split a four ship arrival and integrate helos etc??

The way that operations are run, say at London TC, would mean that if an ex mil controller was given dispensation to do just the bookwork exams, then train live, it would take a hell of a lot longer for the OJTIs to get him or her to the required standard. Time which I am afraid is not available due to the amount of people that have to be trained, the amount of ATCOs available to do it, the amount of SCT required for other ATCOs etc etc. Although possible theoretically, it is just not feasible.

By the way, before anyone jumps down my throat, I flew in the Mil (badly), decided to increase my lifespan by becoming a mil ATCO, and am now a civvy ATCO, so I know where I am coming from with what I say.

I did the full NATS course and although I would have like to have had it shortened due to previous experience, I am glad it was not in the end. I work at TC and I work a hell of a lot harder more often than I did in the Mil, having been based at some very busy Mil units.

Conversely I know a lot of civvy ATCOs that would struggle at Mil ATC

[Pierre Argh]

Has any progress been made in this direction yet? If not, one wonders why not. ... could this be to stop the mass migration from the forces over to the much better paid, better equipped. shorter working, don't get shot at (often) CAA?