DID OXFORD FIRE BEST INSTRUCTOR ????

[soviet bloc]

I have heard a rumour, that's what prune is all about isn't it... verifying rumours.... that the self-styled Airline Training Centre which likes to think of itself as the centre of the universe has fired a particular member of its groundschool training staff for the unforgivable, dispicable and treacherous act of actually advising students of said organisation as to what they should revise for internal examinations.

Said individual, a gentleman of the highest reccomendation was (some time ago) thoughtful and caring enough to allow students such as me, a copy of CD rom reedback exam questions; the use of which individually led to high pass rates of such students. The CD in question was "banned" at the said organisation for not being "approved" by the bunch of retired ex-forces navigators (frustrated failed pilots) who have forgotten they are no longer in the Officers' Mess at RAF Forgotten-In-Haste. The truth of the matter in this case being that the monumentally usful CD was not written and audited by said top brass and therefore in their opinion (given their characteristic arrogance) was sub-standard. The lack of substance et al of said organisation's own training manuals and feedback will not be elaborated on, but is apparent to all who have previously and are currently at, it would appear, its mercy.

The gentleman in question, if of course this rumour is true, cared for nothing more in his job than the fast, effective and continuous success of students whom he recognised as devoted, determined individuals who would not allow the bigotry of the parent organisation to stifle their progress into the industry.
My hat goes off to him, he was and is, one of the single most devoted and exceptional tutors I have encountered during my entire education, and I have since my success in groundschool considered his guidance pivotal to my high average.
The reasons behind the alleged dissmissal (confirmed by 2 parameters) clearly represents the willingness of the employer to put politics and ego before the needs of students, while this splendid veteran of groundschool tuition is put out to graze, many remnant members of the officers' club feast on their age old clientalistic job security. No matter how incompetent, unqualified or uncaring they may be, or how egoistic, bitter and unimaginative their tuition, they on the other hand remain fermly rooted.

The nature of this is typical of the attitude, bahaviour and bigotry of this organisation, the bottom line here is that the organisation in question will, through its own inadequacies, have lost one of the most valuable assets available to them. While that asset on the other hand is far better off without them, the real losers here are those students now deprived of one of the most imaginative, inovative and focused ground instructors there is.

SB OUT

[porridge]

Soviet Bloc - there's nothing new here. The said company has always taken the attitude that anyone showing initiative and more than a modicum of excellence above the lowest common denominator will not fit in to the organisation as they are a threat to the status quo (i.e. the military attitude of the circa 1960’s & ’70’s) as well as the a threat to the over-inflated ego’s of the management – who was it who said: “It’s my train set and I’ll do what ever I want with it”?

[scroggs]

SB, I don't know the truth or otherwise of your allegation, and I care less. I do, however, object to your characterisation of the RAF and those who seved within it as unwarranted and unjustifiable.

The RAF is an organisation of unrivalled professionalism, with a record of achievement, both in war and in peace, that is quite exceptional. The vast majority of individuals who have served, and now serve, in the RAF are of the highest quality both personally and professionally. As an organisation, it is put in harm's way every day in the defence of your way of life. The 'navigators', of which you speak so disparagingly, were part of the front line of that organisation and, as such, were the most likely to have been placed in danger in the course of their duties. And, never forget, the very reason that you live in a society where you may freely criticise your betters is because a generation of people in the RAF and other services gave their lives and their livelihoods for your freedom.

There may well be problems within OAT, and your tutor may or may not have been dismissed, and that dismissal may or may not have been justified, Whatever the story, it has nothing to do with the RAF, its procedures, traditions or anything else.

The professionals who serve, and have served, in the RAF are at a level you can only aspire to. As yet, you are not fit to clean the floor they walk on. Your attitude disgusts me.

But then perhaps your nom-de-plume has some meaning?

Scroggs

[november.sierra]

Unfortunately, soviet bloc, is 100% right in what he says. The gentleman in question was no doubt OAT's best instructor and the only one that genuinely cared for his students, was always approachable and ready to help and my exam passes in his subjects are 100% down to him.

Sadly, he was not an OAT man, and didn't fly the OAT flag because all he cared about was getting his students to pass the exams and continuously got into trouble with management over this. Typical of OAT really to keep getting the best instructors into trouble. As I understand it, the reasons for his dismissal were largely a setup by some of the management.

What a shame to see the best man they had go like this. OAT have shot themselves in the foot big time here, and as has already been said, unfortunately the only losers here are the students. This FTO prides itself as being the world's best, but quite frankly, their treatment of customers and staff is disgusting to say the very least.

On a brighter note, I have been informed that the gentleman in question has been offered an instructors' job with a well known FTO on the Dorset coast, so I'd like to wish him all the best with his job there.

[unfazed]

Scroggs

As yet, you are not fit to clean the floor they walk on. Your attitude disgusts me.

Above comment doesn't fit with the chivalrous and professional code of honour that you so rightly and passionately highlight ???:uhoh:

[Mercenary Pilot]

a copy of CD rom reedback exam questions; the use of which individually led to high pass rates of such students

Would that happen to be the complete JAA ATPL questionbank? The one that the CAA have stated that they will prosecute anyone found using or distributing? (but then do nothing about!?) If that’s the case then I kind of applaud OAT's attitude. It means their students will actually understand the subjects rather than just "doing the feedback"!

However that said, I think it’s totally unfair some students have access to this CD while others have to struggle and learn the subjects properly. It’s a 2 tier system and totally undervalues what most of us worked very hard for.

[scroggs]

Scroggs
As yet, you are not fit to clean the floor they walk on. Your attitude disgusts me.
Above comment doesn't fit with the chivalrous and professional code of honour that you so rightly and passionately highlight ???:uhoh:

Well, I accept that it may be a bit OTT! However, SB seriously wound me up by ascribing the deficiencies of the OAT management to a shared RAF background, which is clearly inaccurate and highly insulting to those of us who are and were members of that Service.

Scroggs

[1/2rhoVsquared]

It sounds like this guy is the one I need to speak to (just having 74% in the met exam. Not for the CD but for one to one tuition. If anyone would care to PM me I would be grateful, anonymity preserved of course.

[Alex Whittingham]

I'm not sure who this thread is referring to but, if you want private tuition in Met, you should be talking to Steve Francis (ex-OAT) who posts here as Pugzi.

[scroggs]

People, if you wish to discuss the benefits or otherwise of a military influence on civilian aviation, the discussion has been moved here. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=232154) I suspect you might get a lively response.

Please leave this thread for the discussion of the matter that soviet bloc brought up without going off at a tangent (any further than I already have!).

Scroggs

[POL1W]

I believe that it is not just the ground instruction that is lacking at OAT but also many other aspects. For example, their promise to help sort out interviews and jobs when you first enquire about what they offer on their course and the realisation that once you have signed on then they don't care as long as they have your money. Oh and they will of course claim responsibility when you do get a job eventhough they had nothing to do with it!!!!
Relying on their name which at this rate won't last long.

[boogie-nicey]

Hasn't this always been the case with the innovative and/or most imaginative teachers who quickly get branded "modern day methods", "troublemaker", "new age teaching hippy", etc.....

No one likes change especially with those at OAT that are so embedded into their own self belief that any 'innovation' is seen as potentially hazardous to 'their' future.

[PEDRO241]

POL1W
absolutely, when I was there the standard procedure was for OAT to put forward students of their own choice to airlines and fob the rest of us off with nonsence like "those who met the criteria have been selected, and we can't tell you what the criteria are..." bla bla bla, even though those selected were by no means exceptional nor even similar types of people. seems the only criteria for getting into OAT itself is having the £. I got myself a job and if I'd gone to my local flying school I'd have saved thousands and still got my job.
If ever there was an organisation surviving as you say on image and image alone it's OAT.

[Mercenary Pilot]

boogie-nicey

Giving out an illegal CD containing the ATPL Question bank is hardly a "modern day method". Oh wait, maybe it is.:ooh:

Don’t know if OAT is good/bad but what I do know is easyJet are short of pilots. I’m a modular trained CPL/IR with commercial experience (I’m also 737 rated) and I have been rejected without even getting an interview. OAT students (150 hrs, no TR or real world experience) have been taken on, so obviously the image DOES work.

P.S. Good luck guys the 737 is a great aircraft to fly.:ok:

[boogie-nicey]

I cringe every time I hear stories like Mercenary Pilot's (got all stuff + commercial exp.) and yet gets sidelined by the fast track brigade from OAT.

MP: Sorry to hear that dude, keep acculumating the flight time, next door opens and hopefully won't close in your face...:ok:

[dlav]

Soviet Bloc - We both know what the said individual was up to. It was a little more than just "telling us all what to revise".

He was already on a formal warning, and yet he did the same thing again. What did he expect? I mean seriously? :ugh:

the bunch of retired ex-forces navigators (frustrated failed pilots)
How narrow minded can you be? That is one of the most un-professional things I have read on here in a long time. Shame on you.

On a side note, he was a true gentleman. Very helpful and yes, a very good instructor. He will be missed.

For those thinking about going to OAT - Please don't believe the shi*e that is on here and that has been posted. The groundschool is absolutely superb, you will not find any instructor who wont sit down with you to go over something, or even just have a chat if the work load is getting too much.

As for the job front, well im not in a position to comment, but nearly 100 grads placed this year already, 190 odd last year. :D

dlav

[gblen]

The instructor in question was truly excellent at his job, he didnt do it exactly the Oxford way but if it wasnt for him, i know i would havent moved onto the USA to continue my flight training.

He had a great grasp of what was needed out of the students for the exams, what a pity that Oxford students are going to miss out on the experience being tought by him. Dudes, dudettes, ******* rock on.

Oxford still has plenty of excellent instructors, but its such a pity to lose this man. I can easily say that he was my favourite instructor. He always had time for students, I dont think Oxford have realised this, no time was a bad time to come talk to him about a problem with a certain topic- 24/7. He honestly encouraged you to ring him at any time if you had a problem with a topic. Better a half pissed instructor etc etc.

We all know where he wanted to place that slowly revolving pineapple!

[microfilter]

He was certainly one of the best, no doubt- imagine that- being fired and your only crime is to want to help students! Bizarre. Ground instruction ranges from mediocre to poor (except for some excpetions) and we were taught the complex subject matter of gyroscopes with little more than a baked bean tin lid and a pencil. Don't believe the glossy brochures!

His epitath will read as follows...

" Rock on dudes, rock on...ok...not gonna mess about here.....I'll tell you what you need to know- what you need to know....take a note....."

[captainyonder]

As someone who did part of their training at OAT I'd be very grateful if someone could PM to tell me who it was that got the boot, if it's who I think it is then I'm disgusted.

[Mercenary Pilot]

I cringe every time I hear stories like Mercenary Pilot's (got all stuff + commercial exp.) and yet gets sidelined by the fast track brigade from OAT.

MP: Sorry to hear that dude, keep acculumating the flight time, next door opens and hopefully won't close in your face...:ok:

Thanks. Just as long as I dont let it get me down or turn me bitter (A320rider im looking at you;) ) I'll be just fine.

- imagine that- being fired and your only crime is to want to help students!

By cheating? Thats what it boils down to really. By the sound of it, the guy was a decent GI without the CD. Good ground instructors are VERY hard to come by in the UK and i'm sure this chap wont be out of work for long. He might even find the more laid back approach of other schools more to his liking.

[frustrated_flyer]

I am so sad to hear of the loss of one of the great instructors at OAT. He was one of the only people who cared about the 'Customers'. He will be sorely missed by all students to come.

RIP Dude!

Adios Frustrated Flyer

[november.sierra]

As someone who did part of their training at OAT I'd be very grateful if someone could PM to tell me who it was that got the boot, if it's who I think it is then I'm disgusted.
check your pm

[microfilter]

Cheating? LOL

He only gave them tips for internal exams, which for those of you that have done them bear no resemblance to the JAAs WHATSOEVER. Complete waste of time doing them.

[gblen]

Cheating? LOL

He only gave them tips for internal exams, which for those of you that have done them bear no resemblance to the JAAs WHATSOEVER. Complete waste of time doing them.


i dont know what exams you sat, but the tips and hints from the man in question got me through Radio Nav with 92, pretty much down to him. Without his tricks of the trade, i was looking at a resit for sure. Bullshine

[Waryhawk]

'buckle up people this is going to be one hell of a ride, write this down...'

That was my introduction to radio propagation as part of my brush up course at OAT a few months ago. I honestly cannot believe OAT would not have this excellent teacher as a member of their staff. He knew what we needed to know, he offered his total support which included telling us to contact him at home day or night if students needed help with the subject. I don't know if its just me or not, but I find those who are particulary good, or work the hardest get dumped upon from a great height. I recommend any school to snap this fine instructor up as soon as possible

[PEDRO241]

Waryhawk
you are so so right, esspecially at OAT those who work hard get dumped on indeed, the thing is they make up their narrow little minds about you on day 1 and that's that. On the other hand if you have 'I'm going for BA' stamped on your forehead and go round at open days flying the OAT banner then you're quids in.

[microfilter]

gblen- i believe the action was taken over internal exam info- not JAAs- his tricks were definately valuable no doubt- my point was that the Ox internals are pointless (CAA imposed i believe) therefore to be punished for supplying a few answers for a pointless test is harsh.

[G.Q.]

Guys, as I was, unfortunately, directly involved (as a student) to the person in question and the circumstances why he was fired, I can assure you it didn't had anything to do with a CD of any kind.

I hope you can appreciate I won't disclose any more details.

The GI in question was a very good teacher, and he will be missed. I hope he is doing well, although rumor has it he has been offered a new job somewhere else.

[A320rider]

he has been offered a new job somewhere else.

prove it!!!!
or the school in question could face a national boycott.;)

[wbryce]

I was planning on going to Oxford for groundschool...It worrys me that people are saying that this instructor was the difference between a pass and a fail and that most other instructors aren't as dedicated.

[Maude Charlee]

I don't know why everybody suddenly has a problem with the teaching staff at OAT. OK, they did lose a good number of their best instructors when they decided to set up their own (sadly, short-lived) rival groundschool operation, but that still left a fair number of very capable and highly competent instructors. Yes, there are a number of planks there, but I would bet a penny to a pound of **** that they were also considered planks by their peers when they were in the RAF. The service background of OAT's ground instructors has absolutely no bearing to their ability to teach.

Those of you who progress to the flying will meet many more planks, most of whom have never seen military service of any kind (and no, the Scouts doesn't count).

Military service and plankdom are two entirely seperate entities.

As for the sacking, well if the chap in question had been warned previously about his/her conduct, then they clearly aren't terribly bright. All organisations have 'rebels' who like to challenge the status quo, and ultimately most will pay the price. Tough titties really.

[G.Q.]

prove it!!!!
or the school in question could face a national boycott.;)

A320rider, learn te read! What do I need to prove? What did I write down? Exactly, "...RUMOR HAS IT..."!

[Mercenary Pilot]

Dont bite G.Q. :=

[microfilter]

Wbryce- groundschool at OAT is seriously overrated- although you will probably leave it with all exams done- the object of the exercise. Nod oubt teaching is as good anywhere else- and at the end of the day all you need is the datebase from the excellent Bristol Ground School.....

[PEDRO241]

quite... when I was there people actually went to Bristol for a brushup course between school finals and exams !!! bet that would hit OAT if they knew their own students were spending money elsewhere, apart from the fact that it says not alot for OAT brushups.

[microfilter]

They already know we all use Bristol etc and any other means- in fact we've been advised to buy Jeppenson books to supplement the Oxford stuff!!! By the lecturers themselves!!!!

[A320rider]

I have heared only good things about Bristol.
and only bad things about Oxford.
is there something wrong with Oxford?

Don't write oxford on your CV! but Bristol... ;)

[Elixir]

Firstly if OAT has fired the instructor I am thinking it might be then big big mistake. He was really excellent and always ready to provide extra assistance. He got my class through the RNAV internal exams and JAR's with some great instruction and helpful pointers.

As for OAT ground instructors - there are some really good guys there and in my class of 20 only one person returned home from the States to retake an exam. Only those having been through the school are able to comment on its quality....and I wouldn't hesitate in recommending the school to anyone looking for a groundschool. I never heard of anyone going to Bristol for brushups!!! Pedro - there wasn't enough time between SF's and JAR's for that....!

[PEDRO241]

your still wet behind the ears eh :)
depends actually some courses do have a longer wait between school finals and exams, depends on various things, but hey if you all passed who cares.

[Cactus99]

Who was the instructor, why wont anyone name him??

Could someone PM me with who it was, I have lost touch with the guys down there now.

Thanks, Cactus.:ok:

[november.sierra]

I think there is a somewhat inaccurate picture about the dedication of instructors at OAT posted here. Fact is, most of them are highly capable individuals (bar a few notable exceptions) and make sure you do get through the exams. It is also evident that most of the exceptions have a RAF background and somehow think we're still in the days of conscription and treat students accordingly.

The individual in question here that was fired was just a particularly outstanding instructor, extremely good and knowledgeable, and always went far beyond the call of duty to ensure his students would get the best possible result. I would even go as far as saying he was the only one that genuinely cared.

OATS, as microfilter says, on the whole is overrated and I'm sure that other places will offer similarly good training. However, I didn't go looking for anything other than ATPL exam passes and so far they seem to have come up with the goods, albeit with a lot of help from the Bristol database, the best €72 I've spent so far on ATPL training.

[smith]

By cheating? Thats what it boils down to really

The class tests at all schools AFAIK have absolutely no relation to the JAA final exams. I think they use material from the old CAA exams and are there to ensure you learn material from the whole course rather than just learn the bristol QB for the JAA finals.

Speaking of which, I found the bristol QB a very useful tool in the preparation to my finals, however I just don't know how bristol do it. Their QB if not identical is virtually identical word for word to the Q's in the JAA finals. Could using the Br QB thus be considered as "cheating" as we know in advance the questions and answers? In my opinion it is not as I think the JAA exams would be nigh on impossible without the use of feedback and an important part of preparation for any exam is practicing past papers be it for A levels, GCSE's, degree exams etc.

[Mercenary Pilot]

I just don't know how Bristol do it

They probably have access to a version leaked question bank...I think it was originally leaked from Italy or Portugal but its been done more than once. The CAA are fully aware of these disks.

Could using the Br QB thus be considered as "cheating" as we know in advance the questions and answers?

It is blatant cheating. The JAA question bank is supposed to be secret!
Before this CD, students had practice papers made up from questions remembered by other students from other exams, hence the term "feedback". I remember swapping big tesco bags full of papers with pilots from other schools.

However I'm glad Bristol have done this. It was totally unfair that some students had access to the CD while others didn’t. A little while ago, I was speaking with the head of ground training at the CAA (BW) and he said categorically that anyone found with this CD would be prosecuted and removed from the exams but as far as I know this has never happened.

[potkettleblack]

I thought just about everyone had the CD these days? It has been floating around my brush ups (not with Bristol by the way) and we were all taking a copy. My school has a copy but won't admit it publicly so it would be interesting to see what stance the CAA would take in prosecuting as they might not have any ground schools left! Its even on ebay if you want to splash out a few quid. Did I look at it - nope, not enough time. I just relied on feedback and the Bristol ATP website. As far as I know the CD of the Italian database has some bung answers in it as well so you need to be careful if you just use that as your revision tool. These have been corrected in the QB that the CAA use largely through the appeals process.

As to how Bristol keeps up to date with feedback it is quite simple. Its a pure numbers game. They have so many people taking the exams each month and updating them that they keep on top of the game. I was speaking to some Bristol guys after a sitting at Gatwick and they had turned the whole feedback process into a science. Each of them were responsible for remembering about 10 questions in the bigger exams and as soon as they got out of the exam they wrote them down and them phoned them through. Ingenious really.

As an aside want to know how to spot a Bristol peep? Well they will be the ones that are out of an exam inside 20 minutes:)

Remember you can't beat the system so learn how to play it.

[scroggs]

Before anyone tries this again, it is not acceptable to name names on this forum unless they are already in the public domain. Just think for a minute how you would feel if your name came up in a controversial discussion on here, particularly if the facts were being incorrectly reported.

You demand anonimity for yourselves; allow the same courtesy to others

Scroggs

[smith]

As to how Bristol keeps up to date with feedback it is quite simple. Its a pure numbers game. They have so many people taking the exams each month and updating them that they keep on top of the game. I was speaking to some Bristol guys after a sitting at Gatwick and they had turned the whole feedback process into a science. Each of them were responsible for remembering about 10 questions in the bigger exams and as soon as they got out of the exam they wrote them down and them phoned them through. Ingenious really.


This must add extra pressure to the students in an important exam which could affect their future careers.

In effect this is like buying a pirate DVD from a car boot sale, we are paying £50 for Br QB for material that has been effectively "stolen" from the JAA exams (intelectual property).

The CAA/JAA must be happy for this practice to exist and everything is above board. Maybe the CAA get a cut from Bristol for using their intelectual property and thus it provides even more cash for them, just a theory lol.

I did find it very useful in my prep, if the CAA were to copyright the questions they could then earn a great deal from various outlets of feedback.

:8

[potkettleblack]

Sorry should have made myself clearer mr negative. The students take it upon themselves to provide the school with feedback as they generally feel that they have benefited from the hard work of others before them and so return the favour. As far as I know there is no pressure on students to remember questions and report back although a number of people will. They have so many people doing the exams each month that it only needs a few to call back and keep the process going. Personally my mind has gone pretty much blank once I am out but there you go.

[dlav]

Its been said before, the CD in question was NOT the primary reason for the dismissal.
It was a little more to do with guided revision. Some of you will know what Im talking about, others wont.
As for the comments about school finals, well thats pure bull:mad: hit Im afraid. Would you rather fail your JAAs first time round, or do some practice papers first, to get a rough idea of how you will do, and then consequently put in the extra work/effort as required, in order to get 14 FIRST time passes?
The school finals I sat at OAT were without doubt, harder than the JAA exams themselves. :ok:

[november.sierra]

dlav what are you on about? The guided revision was a real help in making sure that the ridiculous excuse for exam preparation, aka test 1/2 & school finals, which bear NO RESEMBLANCE to the real exams, were done as hassle free as possible. The last thing you need before exams is someone preaching about how you'd need to up your work rate. I for one know exactly what I'm capable of and what my shortcomings are WITHOUT school exams and would be far better off staying at home revising on my own, rather than wasting nearly a week of precious revision time.

I don't think the school finals are harder than the real exams because they don't represent an accurate model of what awaits you in the exam room. The lecturer in question knew this and just wanted to make the process of getting through them easier.

[alknibbs]

Hi All,

I'm currently at OAT studying my phase 2 subjects and thought i ought to post my opinion of what has been written here.

The instructor in question is a great guy and a very good instructor and i wish him all the best with whatever he chooses to do now, Rock on Dude! However, i can't believe the amount of negative things being said about the other ground school instructors. The vast majority of the instructors have to date been extremely helpful. They are willing to offer extra tuition whenever required, they are always available to answer queries, they offer their honest advice about how best to pass the exams, and do their best to make sure that you actually understand the subject itself as well as the particular types of questions that you can expect to be faced with in the exams. Instructors have different ideas about how best to teach us but they all have the same very clear goal and that is to ensure that we all pass and get the highest marks possible. They also try and make the learning experience as enjoyable as possible and remove the stress out of what is an extremely stressful experience. I've never seen any evidence of an 'RAF conspiracy!!' Just a good bunch of guys giving great instruction.

There are no secret batches of questions that we are handed by instructors and told to guard with our lives! We are given sets of questions that are either made up by the instructors to ensure that we know the syllabus or they are feedback questions that have been gathered from other students. I have not heard of students rushing off to other groundschools as there is neither the time nor the need. The various different databases of 'feedback' are virtually identical and pretty much all hail from the same original source.

I believe that Oxford do their very best to get all of their students jobs, of course they do, otherwise nobody would come here! Obviously their ability to get someone a job is determined by that persons performance in exams etc. Certain airlines have certain stipulations so not every candidate will be suitable!

To anybody considering coming to Oxford, come to one of the open days, get on the Oxford Aviation Training Forum, and don't believe everything you read on threads like this. I've been here just over 4 months now and so far so good!

I am by no means the most intelligent bloke in my class, in fact to be honest i am one of the less academically gifted (as you can probably tell by this post!!), however i've just passed the first 7 exams first time with an average of 90% so Oxford must be doing something right!

Feel free to contact me if you want any advice etc

[PEDRO241]

alknibbs
4 months pahh !! you wait til you've been messed around in the states, messed around back for IR then messed around with MCC and fed a load of dubious rubbish about job prospects.

actually I agree with you alot of the way on groundschool, the majority of instructers are as you say, management is another matter - actually are you management maquarading as a student ;)

yes all potential OAT students should get a copy of the glossy brochure at least for amusement value, during the weeks we were grounded due to broken a/c or skrewed up ops or some senile idiot forgetting to get an a/c back on time... we used to amuse ourselves in the crew room by counting the amount of blatent spin points in the latest edition.
also definitely go to the open day and listen to all the bluff, I mean Bush and Blair av nothing on these guys,
and by the way don't eat the free lunch, unless you want to barf
:)

[microfilter]

Problem is with this discussion is that of course it is highly subjective but in my experience the teaching at OX (apart from a handful of notable exceptions) ranges from poor to moderate. Many lecturers need urgent remedial tuition on how to teach because they obviously haven't a clue- sometimes it was embarrassing to witness. At the end of the day, all you want is the exams and never to see the place again, and if you achieve that, who gives a :mad: ? If you are wavering at all about choosing somewhere to study- there are a lot of good guys in other schools- check them out- read some of the other stories on here- Wee Weasley Welsh for example- (is that great thread still around?) and if you don't have the magical access to £60,000, had to earn it yourself or if every penny counts- give Ox a wide berth, save your cash and get BRISTOL DATABASE......

[asuweb]

I must say this post is getting ridiculous.

The instructor in question was undoubtedly a great guy, always willing to go the extra mile, and cared passionately about the students. Rock on Dude!. However, he was also under no illusion that some of his practices were against OAT's rules. Every company has rules, and every employee is required to abide by them or face the consequences.

As for the suggestions that all of the remaining instructors are not up to scratch and don't care about student - that is complete and utter bull:mad:!!

All of the instructors I've experienced are more than willing to help students whenever they are struggling with a subject.

As for internal tests - I can't believe all the negativity towards them. Would you rather go into the JAA exams without having done any mock exams? I know I wouldn't. Yes, these internals (especially School Finals) put you under pressure, but I'm afraid the industry that we are entering requires you to be able to perform with a certain amount of pressure. Yes, feedback has its place, but there are certain subject where it is more beneficial to actually understand the material, rather than just knowing that it's answer "c".

Anyone that is considering attending OAT, don't believe all of the crap that is posted on here. Go to a seminar, visit the school, sit in on lessons, and talk to the students there. It's also important to visit other schools so that you can make a sound and informed decision.

[microfilter]

Unfortunately your informed decision will only become informed once its too late. CHECK ELSEWHERE if money is tight. These are FACTS: Some Oxford antics are : abandoning lessons because can't be bothered (unbeliveable); habitually turning up late; poor teaching and learning strategies; telling stories for 75% of the lesson then finishing with 5 minutes teaching- depends what you're used to I guess....

However, if you get the 14 exams at the end- who cares how you got them?

[PEDRO241]

ALL OAT STUDENTS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME OAT STUDENTS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS
the same goes for the way they treat their instructors i.e. what they can get away with....

[Rudedog]

ALL OAT STUDENTS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME OAT STUDENTS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS
the same goes for the way they treat their instructors i.e. what they can get away with....

Hear Hear. Never a truer word said. I am happily now in my dream job but that has naff all to do with the clowns at OAT. When put forward for a job the "selection board didn't think that you met their credentials". Oh please. They would be wise to wake up to the fact that people are now aware that the sun does not shine out of their proverbial and they now have several good schools to compete with.
Succeed through our experience? Pull the other one!

[PEDRO241]

RUDEDOG
you speak to my heart, congrats on getting your job, feels good doesn't it - esspecially to do it without any help at all from the OAT "selection board"

seems selection boards concentrate on - are you a clone who fits into OAT's subjective idea of what every pilot should be, and have you taken all the crap OAT hurl at you for 18 months and still come out with a smile on your face saying 'thanks so much for doing me a favour'

considering suggesting to the clowns that they change their slogans to
Succeed DESPITE our interference, or 'Bills before flight'
or my favourite...
'Oxford Aviation, We sell dreams for cash'

[microfilter]

Bravo pedro and rudedog- I see you are amongst the 'free thinkers'! You should have seen the Cold War fossils dug up to conduct my integrated 'selection'- you're quite right- they love the clones and the guys who keep their mouths shut and just soldier- still, if you wave 70 large in their face- who is going to say no? I hear that the 'all-new' WAYPOINT scheme at Ox has since dropped its initial 'selection process' and qualification criteria......amazing how the requirements drop as the shareholders bay for dividends eh?

[dlav]

NS - you do what you want mate, I'll stick to making sure that Im prepared for the exams. Seems logical to me. I went from a 75 average in the test 1s, 83 in test2s and finally a 91average in the JAAs. I couldnt have done it unless I was able to sit a mock exam in order to sniff out my weak areas. Fair enought it might not work for you, but it did for me and many others, thats the point im trying to raise.
As for the rest of you, I can only comment on the ground school, and like I said before, its absolutely superb. But no doubt some of you will only preach what you want to hear, thats fair enough I guess, but at least take the time to do abit of research and look at the first time passes OAT gets in the JAAs, before making such ridiculous statements like:
These are FACTS: Some Oxford antics are : abandoning lessons because can't be bothered (unbeliveable); habitually turning up late; poor teaching and learning strategies; telling stories for 75% of the lesson then finishing with 5 minutes teaching- depends what you're used to I guess....

Wake up lads, I mean seriously, if your going to make up bull****, at least try and make it a little bit more believeable :ok: :=
No doubt theres going to be a wave of abuse thrown back at me, but some of the stuff on here is just complete lies, I know it, and so do the rest of you.

[alknibbs]

People warned me about posting on PPrune saying that there are a lot of negative people out there who post a lot of rubbish! Just got to say thanks to some of you for proving them right.

Just worked out that i've now attended 452 lectures to date and so far the instructors have managed to attend every single one without failure. I can count on one hand the amount of times instructors have been more than a couple of minutes late and several of those times they have just been delayed in another class answering questions that students had.

I love the way that just because something didn't work out for someone then it must be crap, i wish i was as 'free-thinking' as that! I'm no 'corporate clone', I'm just someone who feels that actually they are getting their moneys worth from OAT. I work hard, they work hard, i get good results, they get good statistics. They are a business and I'm a customer, i hopefully get what i want and they then get what they want which is a success story that encourages otheres to come. In order for somewhere like OAT to of been as successful as they have been for as long as they have been it can't all be 'marketing spin', there have to be facts to back it up. The bottom line is OAT is not cheap but you get what you pay for and that is great instruction, great guidance about the exams, and help getting a job from people who do actually care. If students were not successful then people would stop coming, is that not obvious?

Someone mentioned that there are poor teaching and learning strategies. I always thought that teaching you the syllabus, testing you to ensure that you understand the material, explaining to you how your knowledge will be tested, and trying to remain personable and ensure that the lessons are as enjoyable as possible was a good teaching method. Feel free to expand on how you would improve things, maybe you could set up your own groundschool and you could all be the instructors?! Apparently you only need a little bit of 'marketing spin' and the 'idiots' will be paying top dollar to join!

The instructor in question is a great bloke and i wish him all the best in his new job in my home town, might even pop in and see him! I'm sure he'd be very amused to read the majority of stuff being written on here!

Let's try and stick to the facts as there are people reading this who are trying to make a very important decision as to where to study. In my opinion OAT is great but I'm only speaking for myself, obviously some people will not not enjoy the experience. Each school has its merits, so get all the information you can before making your decision. If i had to make my decision again i wouldn't hesitate in coming here. To the people with the negative Oxford comments, maybe it would be more helpful if you could actually suggest to prospective students where else would be better and why?

[Lucifer]

seems selection boards concentrate on - are you a clone who fits into OAT's subjective idea of what every pilot should be, and have you taken all the crap OAT hurl at you for 18 months and still come out with a smile on your face saying 'thanks so much for doing me a favour'
Or perhaps with one's first step into the real world, many find it a shock, and OAT does you a favour putting you in line. If you can't hack that, then god help you when you meet the corporate culture of the airline...if you make it...

telling stories for 75% of the lesson then finishing with 5 minutes teaching
Teaching is best when you don't realise you are learning...think about it...

If the lessons are 20 minutes I would be very surprised...

[Subcutaneous]

If the instructor in question is an avid reader of these threads, feel free to voice your feelings on here mate. We all know you are a top guy! No doubt you are now back in work and hopefully not needing to conform with the OAT Gentlemans Club
Good luck to you!

[PEDRO241]

Lucifer
that's exactly what I'm talking about, congratulations on your brainwashing,
I suppose you now believe it's the same deliberate conditioning for the real world that will make you lose flights due to unneccesary incompetance or get delayed by weeks because of managerial skrew ups.... well maybe, of course this will happen in the real world, probably even more so, but when you're paying for it through the nose one would appreciate an attitude of 'sorry we messed up' rather than 'shutup we're doing it to prepare you for the real world'

[microfilter]

dlav- I'm not sufficiently childish to hurl abuse at you- but I'm not on here to tell lies- facts are facts- and it does get worse! Like I said, depends what you're used to and if it came out of your own pocket I guess. I'm simply saying that I expected a great deal more from the private sector and have been sorely disappointed- I'm not interested whether or not you think they are lies or not- I am reporting these events as FACTS. Unless you were there next to me you have no idea whether this went on or not. Can you remember your lessons being flippantly abandoned at school or sixth form- no chance- teacher would have been out the door like a shot- never to work again. Most lecturers at Ox wouldn't last five minutes in the public sector. The FREE THINKERS amongst those reading this thread will appreciate what I've said as the truth. But again, if you get the 14 at the end of it- who cares? Just let's have less of the brainwashing hyperbole and marketing claptrap. It's obvious that the guy who was dismissed didn't swallow the pap in the brochure- and they didn't like that.

[microfilter]

Lucifer- you may be right with your hackneyed adage, but how do you equate telling stories about music and tv shows from the 80s with teaching and learning?

[Maude Charlee]

Oh deary me, some of you are in for a shock if you think it's going to be any different when you are employed on the line. Do you actually read any of the airline threads in these forums?

I can't believe I'm going to have to sit next to some of you bozos. :ugh:

[c_jephcott]

I have ummed and ahhed about replying to this thread as I am actually starting in Oxford in August.

The reason why I chose it, well, above all else it was the graduation statistics. Sure, it might be more expensive than the rest, but above all else, if the majority of students do go on to get jobs in a shortish period of time, then who am I to complain? As I am putting down a substantial amount of money for this course, I am convinced that Oxford was the best option for this. Obviously, there will be a fair degree of spin said, but since when does a company not use spin as a marketing technique? All other FTOs are exactly the same though in that aspect - I spoke to a few students at Cabair who were experiencing quite large delays in recieving their training. You don't so much read about that in here, except if OAT had done that, hell would hath had no fury amongst the writers in here.

Above all else though, it is just the most infuriating thing to read some of your comments on the school. Fair enough, you can comment and there's noone going to stop you on that... the fact is that OAT has been running for a long time, and although more expensive than other rival schools, it will get you that magical piece of paper with "licence" written on it at the end. What is pathetic is the fact that some people chose to continue their crusades against the school in such a place. Shame on you, you should be encouraging "wannabes" and not condemning our decisions for which FTO we chose to go to.

I looked around Oxford and must say that from the very start, I was made to feel at home. The staff were friendly and polite, but above all else, what really helped to influence my mind was the fact that all the current students I have spoken to (and I have spoken to quite a few, at various stages of their training) have not had a bad word to say about the training they have recieved. Also, OAT must be doing something right, or else Thomas Cook would have taken their scheme elsewhere.

Obviously, I believe that you cannot comment on something unless you have experienced it yourself - so it's all very well with you guys on here putting OAT down at every single opportunity, but above all else, I must wonder if any of you have actually experienced any of the training that has been offered there.

Anyway, I think I should probably get off my soap box and expect the fall out from this to come any minute, so I might just go and take shelter... but above all else, you should be actively encouraging students and wannabe pilots. And not spending a vast amount of time convincing people that they are wrong to go to OAT. Any school that can get you the licence is good, and any school with a proven record of employment is worth it, be that price £5000 or £15000 more expensive than the others.


Cheers guys,

Chris

[microfilter]

Chris- don't take shelter- come have a pint instead!!!

You'll probably get a job out of it - integrated guys certainly do.

All i do is list some facts from my own personal experience for people to consider that's all. There is plenty of balance in the Oxford V the rest debate.

You might even like the place!!!

GOOD LUCK!!!!!

[c_jephcott]

Wouldn't say no to a pint right now - just having one of those days I'm afraid - literally, just had to say a goodbye to my long term girlfriend as I just left uni while she continues. So right now, I'm a little touchy. :sad:

But let's not let that interfere with the subject!

[november.sierra]

I can only echo microfilter's sentiments, as they are pretty much along the same line as my experiences at OAT. Having said that though, I never wanted anything else but the 14 exam passes and that was exactly what was delivered.

Of course when they show you around the place you are made to feel welcome, albeit in an over-the-top pretend way, rather than being sincere, as I saw every day when people were shown around.

I highly doubt that the fact people get jobs there is attributed to having completed their training at OAT. In fact, having spoken to numerous ex-graduates, they were nothing short of expressing their disgust at OAT, as once their training was completed they were left to their own devices to find a job, and - wait for it - now OAT claim the credit for their employment, even though they did nothing to help them on their way. This applies to integrated and modular students likewise, so don't believe the spin. Yes, OAT students do get jobs, but so do modular students having completed each part of their training in a different establishment, so that argument doesn't really wash with me. Essentially you're on your own once the blue book has been printed.

I'm not saying that everything at OAT is bad, but at the same time, don't take everything they tell you at face value. I did go through the Oxford system and got what I wanted, i.e. my exam passes. I'm also only too aware of their marketing propaganda machine and know only too well about their shortcomings which microfilter has detailed as well. Fact is that once you are enrolled, you are treated like a 12 year old schoolkid, and not given the respect that you are entitled to as a paying customer.

Then again if you like that sort of thing and have 62k to spare, OAT is the place to go. I for one know that it isn't. Food for thought...

[microfilter]

November Sierra is one of those with his eyes wide open- that's all we ask. The website now claims that the 'Waypoint' scheme is 'flexible modular training'. What's flexible about it? Do it all here or clear off! They also claim that 'waypoint is a brand new concept'. In what way is it so? I think the concept is that they will now recommend mod graduates as they do integrated. They used to post the success figures for both modular and integrated- but have since changed the format on the site to disguise the fact that there was little difference between employment figures. Heed NS' words- he has been there!

[Elixir]

Can there ever be a post about OAT without it descending into a bashing??

There are plenty of people who come through OAT and only have good words to say - it only tends to be the bitter/disillusioned ones that post though.

OAT is what you make of it. I had a fantastic time, great groundschool tuition coming out with high 90's average, really good instructors who somehow managed to get me through the IR and some good advice at the end about finding myself a job. If you work hard and get the results then you WILL be put forward at the selection boards. It's the airlines that set the requirements not OAT so if you want the job then get the grades.

It makes me laugh when people say "OAT left me to find a job myself after finishing" - seriously, do they want Oxford to hold their hand in the interview too?! It's a tough industry and if you don't have the initiative to do your own job hunting then there's no hope.....!

Anyway whatever gripes people have about OAT they ARE doing something right, they get people through and with some pretty good results too. Only 2 from my class of 15 are still looking (and the last of the class finished in Feb).

Chris - you'll have a great time! If I had to do it all again I would still choose OAT. Good luck with it!

[captwannabe]

The fact is that other FTOs provide the around the same quality of training (some better, some worse), for less €€€s. With regard to schools claiming credit for the employment of those left to their own devices, that happens everywhere. Why else would Ryanair or Cityjet be mentioned on their websites? That is irrelevant when comparing different FTOs. Thomas Cook also hire out of CTC, and dare I say, if they need even more low-hour FOs, they would take their business to FTE. And apparently, OATs employment figures also include people in the hold pools for the respective airlines. I would be interested in the ratio of people on the course to those employed with airlines after graduation at Oxford.

"Food for thought..." Exactly what I was thinking. The price of food and accomodation in addition to the hefty €90k price tag is incredible. At least in FTE, that is all looked after. And the course size is smaller in FTE, which I think is an advantage.

[PEDRO241]

"Can there ever be a post about OAT without it descending into a bashing?? There are plenty of people who come through OAT and only have good words to say"


let me guess... you never raised a complaint about a thing at OAT and sailed straight into a job because you smiled all day every day at everyone in the place,

"If you work hard and get the results then you WILL be put forward at the selection boards."

yeh right I know plenty of guys with an average of 90+ and first timers in all flight tests who get kicked to the kerb while others get put forward for 2 or 3 airlines, seems nothing other than the personal opinions of the crusties on the 'selection board' a board which essentially presides over the question 'do WE like you enough to give you the help we promised you?'


"It makes me laugh when people say "OAT left me to find a job myself after finishing" - seriously, do they want Oxford to hold their hand in the interview too?! It's a tough industry and if you don't have the initiative to do your own job hunting then there's no hope.....!"


100% RIGHT alot of us got a job off our own back, and fair credit to them, just don't let OAT take credit for the hard work and effort of those individuals whom in most cases they failed.
:)

[Elixir]

Exactly! I didn't smile every day and was quite open about anything I wasnt 100% happy with. And I still got put forward to an airline. No school is perfect including OAT - it just deserves some credit in amidst the bashing. Ok so it doesnt work for everyone but it did for me and lots of others.

Anyway I've said what I wanted and am drawing a line under it now.

Are you still the master of chocolate truffles??!

[PEDRO241]

exilir

indeed sir I am still the master and always will be NONE CAN RESIST THEM
and who might you be - pm me

however I have always been willing to give the pilluks credit where it's due and have never advised people decisively against OAT, in fact if I had to do the whole thing again I would have to consider seriously wether or not to go the same route, but would not count out OAT after all their bull does seem to count in alot of airline recruitment offices,

just that i was nieve once at an open day and bought into the spin, want to warn others against the bitter dissapointment that can and may be experienced at thier cost

by the way do you want some more truffles ??

[dlav]

Well for over 5 months, not one lecturer has failed to show up, classes most certainly are not randomly cancelled either. Make of that what you will people.

I appreciate that you may have had a different experience than me, and Im sorry for you if you feel let down, but I for one cannot yet fault them.

dlav

[BEagle]

Currently, you can have all the qualifications - and even a type rating - but the harsh facts are these:

According to major airline recruiters, around 50% of fATPL holders are unemployable. Because they are NOT the type of people the airlines wish to employ.

This view is shared by several folk high up in the CAA. Indeed one only has to sit at the door of the Belgrano on an exam day watching the candidates as they come in to know who the future unemployable are....

At least aptitude testing sorts out those who are unlikely to succeed in an airline career. I would be very surprised if 'Oxford' have suspended selection for integrated courses.

Reading the posts on this thread, it is pretty obvious who will be unlikely to be offered airline employment. Take notice of your seniors at Oxford and learn from them. Vociferous kids with poor command of either spoken or written English will be lucky indeed if their applications are even looked at.

Harsh, isn't it. But it's the reality of life.

[november.sierra]

BEagle, If that was supposed to be an insult hurled my way, then regretfully I have to inform you that I do have a job, and a job with a well known UK airline, which OAT no doubt took the credit for, but I got on my own devices. Fact is that the picture OAT paint, of what a supposedly ideal airline pilot should be like, does not match reality. OAT, as has been mentioned before, like robot personalities, and anyone who doesn't fit in that mould is deemed unsuitable.

dlav, I'm glad things have worked out well for you, I really am. However, the reality during my time was different, you weren't there and consequently wouldn't know. Do NOT dismiss me as a liar, you weren't there.

[PEDRO241]

BEagle
apptitude testing is only as subjective as those half baked Freudians who write the tests for £500/hr subsequently highly unreliable.
However do agree with your pitch that many people are 'unemployable' however that won't stop training schools taking their money.

N.S bang on the button as usual :)

[scroggs]

As this thread has lost its way and become yet another general OAT discussion thread, I am closing it. We already have a perfectly acceptable OAT discussion thread. When I get time, I shall merge this thread into it.

Scroggs