Yobs throw rocks at air ambulance

[HOGE]

http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=55&ArticleID=1584388
YOBS threw rocks at the Yorkshire Air Ambulance after it delivered a patient who needed emergency attention, putting it out of action for hours.
Yesterday the chief executive of the air ambulance, Martin Eede, condemned the thugs, saying that they had not only put the lives of paramedics and his staff at risk but patients' lives as well.
The crew was were transferring a patient who had suffered a ruptured aorta from Airedale General Hospital to Leeds General Infirmary.
The helicopter landed at Woodhouse Moor, Leeds, on Wednesday evening, where it was met by an ambulance crew.
As it was flying off a small group of youths began throwing stones.
When the aircraft returned to base it was grounded so mechanics could strip the engine to make sure no stones had got inside.
Mr Eede said: "We are paid for by the people of Yorkshire, we are a charity and we do not want some mindless youths attacking it and putting peoples' lives at risk in this way."
The helicopter was grounded Wednesday evening and Thursday morning. Superficial damage was caused to its frame.
Mr Eede added: "It is not only putting our paramedics and pilots at risk, it is putting patients at risk – we were not able to fly yesterday morning if we were needed."
He said the patient had been transferred safely to the infirmary. It is the first time the air ambulance has ever experienced such problems.
A spokesman for West Yorkshire Police said they had been alerted to the incident.
23 June 2006

[Torquetalk]

Well, yes. Wouldn't you love to throttle them?

But that kind of reaction by sections of alienated British groups is not at all new: the fire service comes under attack in various parts of the country from time to time.

It begs a bigger question of why so many young British men feel no sense of civic connection with such services, which in a balanced community would be respected and valued.

TT

[lup]

I think the medical term is "cockroach DNA"

[chevvron]

Catch them and cut off their goolies, that'll quiet them down.

[Droopy]

RAF HLS entry for Liverpool Annfield hospital....security required due to the high risk of vandalism to the aircraft. It's a good job none of the feckers know how to fly....

[Flashover999]

Jeez..am I never going to be able to escape this crap? We was stoned 3 weeks ago by a group of youths whilst on the way back from a call in the fire engine. One of the reasons i want to complete the UK CPL is so i can get away from all this stuff, now it seems that i will be dodging rocks in a heli too!:ugh:
I just hope that we can get a government who will finally have the balls to tackle this virus like infection of youth "Attitude" as it is getting worse and worse and its come down to the fact they know they will get away with it. :=

What do you think to the idea of bringing back national service in the UK? College/University, legitimate apprenticeship or 2 years national service? Think it would do the trick for a majority of "Scroats" :eek:

Answers on a post card and sent directly to Big Tony "Im going to sort out your country" Blair!:ouch:

Flash

[rotorspin]

all you need is a "hoody hook" neatly lift the blighters off the floor, climb to approx 3000ft, then release... :}
hmmm...where did I put that patent application form?! :D

[soupisgoodfood]

Who needs a hoody hook when you have rotor blades?

[Torquetalk]

Surely this is more than a case of some youths with bad attitudes, and much more to do with endemic poverty and alienated social groups. Why does the UK experience much more of this than say Norway or Sweden? Throwing rocks at fire engines and helis ain't normal in a balanced society with balanced people.

That isn't to say a good kick up the culprits' arses isn't due ;)

TT

[[email protected]]

We have a generation of youth who were not allowed to be disciplined at school or by the police without outrage from 'human rights' groups and 'anti-smacking' do-gooders and as such see themselves as untouchable. As with all things in life, if there are no discernable boundaries then people, especially young men, will keep pushing until they find the boundaries of acceptable behaviour - that is why they get to the stage of happy slapping, then knife attacks and the first boundary they meet is being arrested for assault, manslaughter or murder.
This is certainly not about endemic poverty - they come from a generation that wants it all and has it all - now - without waiting, and the lack of parental control just makes it worse. The kids lack direction, either from their parents or the government and are looking for thrills and kicks from either drugs or violence or both - the inevitable consequence is an increase in crime as they lack respect for the society which appears to have failed them.
The answer? maybe cutting the goolies off will sort some of the boys out, but what about the girls who are just as bad? Some sort of national service might help, we could send them out to do humanitarian work in the properly deprived areas of the world.

If we could stop pandering to the minority of lefty, liberal 'intellectuals' who keep telling us that the rights of the individual are paramount and go back to the proven concept that the rights of the majority must be respected at least as much if any society is going to function properly, then we might start to reverse a very dangerous trend that has taken us a long way down a dark path.

[ShyTorque]

Crab, I agree. I am the father of sons. In their teenage years, in particular, it seems that they have found the boundaries imposed by myself and their mother to be a comfort blanket and a place to tie up against in a storm (not that they would admit it at the time). I was the same with my parents.

It appears that some of their friends and aquaintances, for various reasons, don't initially have these boundaries laid out and have found the transition towards adulthood rather more difficult.

Perhaps most folk eventually come to find more or less the same boundaries but the ones who are shown them earlier don't fall foul of the umpires so often in the process.

[Sgtfrog]

What a bunch of mongs! Well said all - if any of you run for government you can count on my vote!:D

[gremlin 030]

Crab! You have turned into your Father! :=

[chevvron]

The rights of an individual ARE paramount EXCEPT when those rights would impinge on the rights of the population as a whole. Thats what the legislation should say, but our namby pamby government is too frightened of upsetting the lefties to write that in.
How come the Irish government can have human rights legislation allowing it to ban travellers from un-approved sites, when we can't?

[206av8]

It sounds like these 'yobs' need to find a soccer match to go to, surprised they're not at the world cup starting riots.

[thecontroller]

its a multi-facted problem. lack of discipline in the home/school, lack of respect for authority, poverty, broken homes, lack of facilities for young people, increased violence in everyday life, bad schooling, the increasing fractionalised society we live in, lack of 'community', increased alcohol/drug use, the 'me-me-me' thatcherist consumerist values.. i could go on.

it's all very well saying these people are "bad" and they should be strung-up/sent to national services, but that is just a daily mail reactionist viewpoint which doesnt contribute anything to the debate

now before you all jump on me, i'm not excusing their behaviour but trying to maybe explain how we got to this situation

unfortunately "yob culture" in an ever-increasing problem in UK society. not one thing can explain it

[rotorspin]

I remember a time when kids used to dream about becoming heli pilots not throw things at them!!!!

It is quite funny that this thread has led us all debating on yob behaviour and how we can stamp it out.

Chucking a rock/stone at a heli could lead to a number of people being seriously hurt or even death (not only for those on board)

This is attempted manslaughter - so back to the "hoody hook" and lets stop defending/debating these arrogant little rats. Prison is too good for them :*

[chevvron]

Definitely not National Service as it was ie armed forces; when they're demobbed, this would merely produce 'fit' yobs who are in some cases trained to kill. It would have to be a national service which is useful to the population as a whole eg working on farms, building houses etc

[Phoinix]

Sorry, I can't hold myself back on that one.
YES those kids need attention, they need social rights, freedom and protection in this cruel world, adn most of all the need love... :sad:

... hell, those kids need a good beating first :mad: !

Maybe that can clear out the world for them, their responsibilities and then, they can MAYBE learn! If not, back to beating the hell out of them! There is no excuse on puting the lives of crew, patients and who knows who else.

... and i'm not a violent guy.

[MReyn24050]

Crab! You have turned into your Father! :=
What exactly do you mean by that outburst?
I applaud what [email protected] posted he is stating what most sensible and mature individuals think is going wrong in this country today.

[Gerhardt]

The quote was meant as a compliment.

[jayteeto]

One of my 'jokes' to visitors here is that if we have an emergency landing, I will set down in the local safari park lion compound rather than some of the estates here. I have no doubt whatsoever that the aircraft would not last five minutes. No boundaries or respect for authority isthe problem, the government refuse to seriously address it..... Result? Exactly what we see now on the streets of our cities. They COULD be decent kids, but with no guidance and authority they just dont know how to behave. Tackle the cause (liberal do-gooders and so called rights) and we may get somewhere, if we just build prisons and lock them up then there will be thousands more to take their place.

[thecontroller]

the cause isn't liberals and do-gooders. that is a lazy viewpoint. i suggest you study some basic sociology.

[jayteeto]

My point exactly, that is the problem, reading about sociology!! You last post talks about multi-facted this and poverty that. Management speak bo**ocks. These people laugh at people like this because they just nod and agree with you about wanting to sleep with their mother complexes!! When all they actually want to do is get out and get their next fix, saying anything to do it. In any society there will always be a criminal element, but these people just dont care what they do. That is because they can GET AWAY WITH IT!! Their rights are above that of their victims. Lazy viewpoint.... my a**e!!

[thecontroller]

"just nod and agree with you about wanting to sleep with their mother complexes"

i think you are confusing sociology and psychotherapy. i suggest you stick to flying helicopters and reading the daily mail.

[jayteeto]

i think you are confusing sociology and psychotherapy. i suggest you stick to flying helicopters and reading the daily mail.

Yeah right matey!! How many other 'ologies and therapies' should I confuse you condesending prat. Cant stand the Daily Mail, I read the Sun, have you got some leftie complex theory that will now neatly put me in another box because of which paper I read? I like the sport coverage in that paper, so it goes without saying I must be a yobbo, eh??
Rant nearly over, sorry, but I cannot stand these people who think by quoting Freud and some books they have read at university they can talk to me like that. I now live around people with 'low basic skills' (leftie pinko term for scum) every day, we are having to move because of these nice misunderstood people around us. They dont care a toss about authority because they dont have to. Ology, therapy, whatever..... My qualification is real life experience. STOP protecting them and start giving them boundaries, if you get locked up for a year then do a year inside. The 14 year old's quote (who tried to run over a bobby in a stolen car) in the custody suite: "Yeah Yeah, I know my rights... I'm only 14 so tell me off and let me out, the football is on soon". It really IS the human rights lefties who stopped school discipline etc etc who have put us in this situation.
Oh well, got to go, my Daily Mail has arrived and my 12 hour shift is nearly over. Just a little bit of time left to fly my helicopter, thecontroller will be pleased with me for completing my task without thinking of sociology.....

[7balja01]

gee.:ouch:

[7balja01]

s@#t.

not even close.the problem is the kids right. they should be doing mathematics, english, physics, and having legal fun right?

hmmm. it's funny how those kids comes from the state school IF ANY SCHOOL AT ALL ,the poor housing estate, the parents smoke and drink. what else are they supposed to do. if you were in their position you would probably be throwin rocks at (expensive) helicopters (owned by rich people), flown by helicopter pilots (who have a job at least).

capitalism.:ugh:

ball.

[HeliEng]

The problem I have with this whole situation, is that it was the Air Ambulance.

I completely agree with what has been said, young people having a problem with authority, not having any boundarys etc etc...

I am in no way condoning their behaviour, it is unacceptable in ANY society, no matter what your background, and no matter how many B&H your mum and dad smoke a day, BUT, I could almost understand it, if it were the Police aircraft. (It just highlighting the issue with authority), but an Air Ambulance, or a Fire Engine, what the hell is all that about????

I am not saying that had it been the Police aircraft that it would have been O.K, but it is like vandals, I cannot see what someone gets out of slashing tyres or keying the sides of cars, but I can understand what I thief gets out of stealing something.

I am sure I am going to get a whole heap of abuse for this, but it is the best way that I can explain!

[R22DRIVER]

Being a young spunker from the UK im so glad i had a good upbringing.
Before training as a pilot i was an engineer and i got a few of these num-nuts as apprentices.
Not only were they a pain in the arse they were also thick as Sh*te. I have no idea what has happened in the 10 years since i left school but boy this generation is only going to get worse.

I feel sorry for you guys being stuck back in that dump of a country with them, but until the government pulls its finger out its arse, the situation is only going to get worse.

There is no one answer way to resolve the way these kids are growing up, but im sure a damn good dose of discipline and teaching of respect is a good start.

These kids know the law cant touch them and even if it does they get sent home with a 'Please dont do that again'. What happened to being scared shi8less of the local bobby who would then drag you home and have your dad belt your arse red raw to make sure you didnt do it again?????

Get the tossers out of london and put them in these estates for a month, then see how they change their minds. If something is not done then that country is going to become even more of a cess pit and then these little bastards are going to have kids at 14 and let them grow up to be even worse.

Send the little ****s to Iraq and wake them up!!! Maybe even shoot the ba%8tards!!!.

Sorry guys for my rant, but those little sh8ts need sorting out before it get too late.

R22

[Impress to inflate]

Sod the do-goders, bring back hanging and beating, get rid of the human rights sh*t and go back to old values. This post comes to you by someone under 35. :=

[R22DRIVER]

Try being 26!!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Firstly, yes, cut their goolies off.


Secondly, I have (as I've admitted before) a strong hobby interest in martial arts - specifically I teach and practice a form of Jiu Jitsu.

A friend of mine runs a big Jiu Jitsu centre in Bedford - quite a severe and dangerous form of the art. Yet, the local social services refer problem kids to him, they've shown that what he teaches them is exactly what they need to calm them down, make them more sensible, and stop them being violent outside his training hall. Counter-intuitive, but damnit it works!

So, more than likely some variation on national service might work. Failing that, a few hours locked in a room with a martial arts instructor seems to do the job quite well! Possibly it's a rapid creation of the rules-framework that was being talked about earlier, together with a "better" appreciation of what violence and helplessness feel like the other way around, albeit delivered in a controlled manner!

G

[thecontroller]

it's an extraordinarily complex problem with no single solution. i don't think it's about excusing or apologising for adolescent boys/young men's behaviour, it's about understanding the context in which this behaviour is taking place. yes, these kids make lousy choices about how they live their lives and they should be held responsible for those choices - but unless we acknowledge that their choices are to some extent constrained by their social, economic and cultural environments and do something to try and change that, the situation will just get worse. this isn't about being a bleeding-heart liberal, it's about understanding a basic truth that those at the bottom of the pile in a society fractured by inequality and inequity are less likely to have any investment in or commitment to that society.

[Whirlygig]

society fractured by inequality and inequity
Eh? Which society and which country are you talking about here? In the UK, there is a pretty good state education system for all, we have a National Health Service (not without its current faults I admit) which is the envy of the world, we have a State Welfare system which attempts to support the citizen (sorry Subject) "from cradle to grave" and "to each according to their need from each according to their ability". And you have the cheek to say that this is an iniquitous society?

Perhaps it might just that because this section of society has had everything handed to them on a plate that they do not understand that things have to be worked for and they assume the world owes them a living.

Crab said it best :ok:

As regards punishment? There is one form of punishment that has not been tried in this country for years, many years and that is the punishment of humiliation. Village stocks, their peers pelting them with rotten fruit, a community telling a miscreant that what they have done is wrong. I dare say this would be against their "rights" for a dignified punishment but, it's not been tried for a while and, as I am anti-capital punishment and prison/borstal doesn't seem to have much effect, might be worth a try.

Cheers

Whirls

PS - I do not read any newspaper and I would say my politics are left of centre if that's any help to anyone!

[whoateallthepies]

Controller
You're a bleeding heart liberal.
Don't make excuses for the little b******s they just need a good birching.

[thecontroller]

so a kid throws rocks at someone/something

do you really think putting him in the stocks is going to make him see the error of his ways? or deter him from doing it again? not a chance. if anything it will make his behaviour worse. just like prison isnt a deterrent. most offenders arent born 'bad', they behaviour is shaped by many factors.

[thecontroller]

>And you have the cheek to say that this is an iniquitous society?

It's not as simple as a welfare state existing or not - see below.

and, 'each according to their need...etc' is a quote from Marx to describe the ideal communist state - hardly applicable to the UK.

Poor people with the greatest need for good health care, education, jobs, housing and transport continue to have the worst access to opportunities and services 60 years after the founding of the welfare state, according to a new assessment of 21st-century Life in Britain, co-authored by Dr Mary Shaw of the University of Bristol's Department of Social Medicine.

A series of ten analytical studies for the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, launched today at a lunch meeting at the Royal Geographical Society's Annual Conference, use data from the millennial Census to uncover the continuing 'inverse care law' whereby poor communities have the least access to essential life chances and resources.

"From that point of view, it is acutely disappointing to discover that so many opportunities and resources still depend on where people live. Wide and persisting inequality is reflected in big differences between 'rich' and 'poor' areas in terms of housing, education and health care as well as economic wealth. Perversely, people living in the poorest neighbourhoods with the greatest needs are often the least likely to have access to the services and support that would help them improve their lives and life chances."

etc.

from: http://www.bris.ac.uk/news/2005/789

[Whirlygig]

...and your suggestion is?

I'm not denying that a babe is born sin-free and I do not believe that badness is inherent in people (unless they have some form of psychosis) BUT the factors that have created this level of behaviour can be reversed. The speed at which it is reversed may not be quick enough for society to cope with. Yes, maybe their mummy didn't hug them enough or maybe daddy didn't play footie with them enough but that doesn't solve the solution now does it?

I merely made an alternative punishment sugegestion to the hang 'em high/chop 'em off brigade with whom I do not agree!

As for this ..."so a kid throw rocks at something" ... do you fly a helicopter for a living? This is a bit more severe than throwing a stone through a neighbour's greenhouse?

Cheers

Whirls

Edited after your second post which was very quickly cut and paste from some publication.

I have no idea where you live but I live in one of the poorest areas in the country, Norfolk. It also has one of the lowest crime rates. Go figure! the "deprived" areas are not necessarily the poorest.

[whoateallthepies]

Society's to blame Guv. And I've got me rights.

Oh, and the "inverse care law" is why I chuck stones at Ambulance helis. Not because I'm just an undisciplined yob.

[thecontroller]

my arguments are not excuses for their behaviour. yes, they broke the law and it was wrong.

what i am trying to do is explain how these young people end up with these patterns of behaviour.

by the way: yes, i do fly professionally for a living

if we follow a tabloid agenda and just "string 'em up" then that will solve absolutely nothing. it will not improve our society and it will not deter them, or others, from behaviour like that. we need to understand the root causes and address them

we need to ask ourselves "how do these people end up doing things like that?". the answer of "they are bad, we should string em up, it's the bleeding heart liberals fault etc" is a lazy knee jerk simplified answer which solves absolutely nothing.

look at our prison population (highest in europe per capita). sending a 15 year old to prison just starts them off on a path of crime and they will get stuck in the endless cycle of the criminal justice system. hence, more crime, more victims, more cost to the state.

[Whirlygig]

Well now thecontroller, as it seems to be mostly me with whom you are arguing and are using the “hang ‘em high” argument against me whereas I have specifically said that I do not agree with it, I shall repeat myself.

You have not said anything new – in fact Crab@SAAvn summed it up nicely. There is no point NOW trying to understand HOW this situation has arisen in society; we know how it’s arisen – it’s a matter of what can be done to “cure” it. I’m still awaiting your suggestions.

Cheers

Whirls

[Torquetalk]

I agree with a lot of the anger and frustration in this thread. The thing I don't fathom is the popular truth that do-gooders are somehow the cause (by driving unbalanced human rights in the favour of the badly behaved) or obstructing change (by opposing more robust interventions).

Do these popular truths really bear up?

Haven’t the First World War (mass shared experience of ineptitude and inhumanity by leaders) and the coincidence of anti-ruling class Marxist theology been identified as significant factors in the erosion of deference in UK society? Legacy effects amongst unsuccessful families seem at least as likely as an outbreak of “inappropriate” human rights.

The other idea that do-gooders are somehow obstructing a good solid response, because they advocate inappropriate namby-pamby responses is also odd. Who are these people? Social workers, probations officers, teachers, community workers? Can't say I recognise any reality to this popular idea. I have, however, seen a lot of good work done by individuals in the most pressing of circumstances and with very little in the way of resources. But how would anybody ever know this when popular media and opinion generically disparages such work? I dread to think how bad things would/will be without it.

Whirly, your point about there being no necessary connection between poverty and criminality is a good one. It makes me wonder if your area is in better shape socially if not financially; perhaps a stronger community structure and higher levels of life competencies are still in place? Poverty is about much more than money. I’m not so sure about your confidence in the end delivery of health and education as part of an essentially fair Britain though. There are grave problems in many parts of the UK and that post WWII shared sense of nation is gone. Throwing rocks at air ambulances and fire engines is not one-off behaviour but occurs quite often throughout parts of the UK. This isn’t so in most other northern European nations, and they have broadly the same judicial processes, human rights and don’t have corporal punishment (as either a deterrent or cure). Why is Britain different?

Before I'm mistaken as a liberal: I think kids who throw rocks at helis, fire engines etc should be punished significantly and promptly... At the same time, I think changing such behavioural problems - as opposed to punishing their expression - is a broader sociological question. The level of public debate and a haste to satisfy justifiable anger does not begin to reflect the scale of the problems at hand. But I am glad the moderators have so far allowed it to be thrashed out here. And that most people have managed to avoid being rude about issues that make us all hot under the collar.

TT

[thecontroller]

i'm not arguing with you, just the general "hang em and flog em" mentality on this thread

the solution? mmm.. well thats the $64,000 question. it's not easy. and it's not going to happpen overnight. thats why politicans prefer "quick" "popular" fixes which make them appear "tough on crime" for the duration of their term in office. but the underlying causes still exist

some solutions maybe:

- a less "me me me" consumerist society (a tough one!)
- curbing the UK's habit of binge-drinking
- more discipline in the home/school
- parents taking more resposibility
- dont have kids unless you can provide a stable family environment to them and can afford to raise them
- more things for kids to do (ie not hanging around)
- more exercise for young people, less TV/video games
- curbing the increased sexualisation of society (adverts, tv, magazines etc)
- increased access to decent housing, healthcare, job opportunites, re-training for poorer areas (look at the ex-mining pit towns, once prowd communities decimated by the loss of the coal industry, no hope for the young generation, increased drug/alcohol abuse)
- less teenage pregnancies. young women need to validate their lives in other ways, they need hope and opportunity
- we need to build more "communities", ie not towns where everyone drives to Tesco, commutes 50 miles to their job, watches big brother, yet doesnt know their neighbors name
- we need to find a way to make society less polarised between the haves and the have-nots. go to most towns in the UK and you will find huge £300,000 houses within a few miles of crappy sink estates

[[email protected]]

It isn't the fact that do-gooders do good, it is that many don't know where to stop - there has been a growing belief since the 60's that humankind is essentially good and allowing all individuals to grow unfettered by the rules and regulations of society will somehow produce a world full of happy, smiley, fulfilled and peaceloving people.

However, you don't need to go far off the beaten track to realise that civilisation is a thin veneer and that, left to our own devices, we rapidly degenerate into a Darwinian 'strongest survive' which doesn't encompass 'most intelligent, caring and compasionate survive'.

Education should help us rationalise our way out of the jungle but money and sex repeatedly blur our moral direction - look how many businessmen fight their way to the top, realise that money can't buy you happiness and then give it all away to charity to salve their conscience.

Like Ghengis, I am a student of martial arts and whilst it may not be everyones cup of tea, it does teach young people respect, both for themselves and for others. I am not proclaiming it as a solution to our yob problem but anything that helps must be a good thing.

There are many people doing excellent work to help the truly disadvantaged but so much of this effort is wasted on those who just can't be bothered to help themselves and see the State as an easy meal ticket.

As with all of life, there is no 'one size fits all' solution, especially since the problem was not caused by one event but has been growing steadily, fuelled by successive governments pandering to the 'quick fix' vote-winning headline answer rather than tackling the root of the problem (often the poor example set by the governments themselves).

Human rights are important but they need the wisdom of Solomon to be applied appropriately to prevent the opportunist taking advantage by hiding behind clumsy legislation. If only we had a Ministry for Common Sense we might have some chance of redressing the lunatic decisions handed out by courts who are too obsessed with the legal process to see the damage they do to society.