NCA PAS/AFPS 05

[Ginger Beer]

Not only is there a gross inequality with NCA PAS in comparison to Officers PAS, in that pay is NOT de-coupled from rank for NCA.......
A recent chat with the desk brought to light that despite PMA sending out a letter saying that those NCA who have changed to the new AFPS 05 will be boarded for PAS by their new 18 year departure point, it now transpires that it is quote "very unlikely" that NCA TOS will be changed to reflect this and we, who have swapped to allow an earlier option point will still need to wait until 22 yrs for the offer.
So, as PAS was brought in to retain peolple past an exit point, WHY NOT?
Will Officers on the new pension wait until 40/18 yrs instead of their 38/16 point for an offer?
If this is how it turns out, IT STINKS,
Ginge

[Just This Once...]

I don’t think even PMA would say that this has been handled in particularly good way, but I would avoid making comparisons to the officer scheme. Whilst the NCA scheme is different to the officers TOS beyond the IPP, it does have some advantages. You may wish to be aware of some of the limitations of the officer scheme:

Not all officers beyond their IPP get PAS (those on career spine) and are at a considerable pension disadvantage compared to NCA PAS. Indeed, a flight sergeant earns more pension than a CS sqn ldr. (I will remind you that for those on reserved rights, the deal is even sweeter, as NCA pay is truly de-coupled from rank.)

Officers transferring from SSC to PC terms now serve to 40 (vice 38) even if they have remained on AFPS 75. This is a 2 year delay to PAS, rather than your concern that the new NCA terms does not translate to PAS NCA point being brought forward automatically by a few years (ie the NCA point has remained static, the officer PAS point has now moved back 2 years).

Officers beyond IPP on CS terms suffer a 50% cut in FP whilst they serve out a PVR. Even if they rescind their PVR the money is no longer returned.

If a relatively junior sqn ldr joins the PA spine at 38/40, his increases in pay slow down on transfer to PAS, even though he remains liable for sqn ldr posts and desk jobs.

Those recruited now on AFPS 2005 (the no choice brigade) do not get assimilated to 55 on promotion to sqn ldr. (Obviously it will take some time for these guys to filter through.)

Reckonable service for officers on AFPS 75 starts at age 21. Years served before then do not count, unlike NCA terms of service.

Feel free to correct any errors, as it has been a long night. But I don’t think the grass is much greener on the officer’s side of the fence. As a result, the PC offers are being turned down in droves and the vast majority of CS sqn ldrs (87% IIRC) are leaving at first option point.

[nimblast]

Just This Once... You have to compare like with like.
Not all NCA beyond their IPP get PAS in fact most of the NCA on reserved rights have not been acepted onto PAS, those that have, suffer from the gross inequality with NCA PAS in comparison to Officers PAS. The pay of Officers on the PAS IS decoupled from rank the pay bars are trade dependant, so a F/L pilot can earn more pension than a Wg/Cdr Admin.
With NCA on PAS their pay is rank capped and is not trade dependant. So PAS for NCA does NOT de-couple pay from rank as it does for Officers. We have two different PAS systems running.

[Just This Once...]

We have two different PAS systems running....You have to compare like with like...

I’ll readily agree that we have 2 forms of PAS running at the moment. Indeed, many would suggest we have considerably more than 2, given all the permutations of NCA, PAS, CS, AFPS 75/05, IPPs etc etc. I strongly advise that we fight any injustice in the way the system is applied or any unintended consequences, nothing else. Any suggestion that the argument is ‘we want what he has got’ will get the NCA cadre nowhere. The system was designed to be different, as it addresses a different (or at least perceived to be) need. It was a hard fought battle to create the NCA PAS, many on this forum though it would never happen. I wrote words and facts to support the case – did you?

I am fighting for the NCA cause, not against it. Just be careful of wishing for the ‘other’ system, without knowing its pitfalls too. The entry point for PA for officers is slowly being pushed back to 40; for some the effect is immediate, some officers have already turned down their PCs because of it.

Nimblast, like it or not this is not a like for like comparison. With a limited pot of money ‘they’ have to target those with the greatest need. To identify need they require empirical evidence, not envy or even ‘justice’. If ‘justice’ came into it, I would be paid more than my subordinates, in the time honoured fashion. The MOD currently takes a different view. My colleagues are voting with their feet. As for me, I’m choosing my footwear right now…

[Jambo Jet]

As for me, I’m choosing my footwear right now…
Ballet shoes by any chance ? or Spikes ?

[Just This Once...]

Ballet shoes by any chance ? or Spikes ?


I had roller-skates in mind, although the image of you in ballet shoes is hard to beat.

Chase me!

[Ginger Beer]

Gents,
TYVM for the points. OJT, the issues you raise tend to be relating to a minority and nimblst is quite right, we are trying to compare like with like.
It is called equality, good with the bad. In fact, PMA have already put pen to paper and stated that as PAS is a tool (carrot) to encourage the eperienced aircrew to remain in service post an exit point, it makes sense to board for PAS in the last 3 yrs of service, whenever that may now be.
The other wider issue of pay being de-coupled from rank is a bit of a farce, take a look at the AP. NCA PAS IS NOT de-coupled from rank and any Air Ranker who says it is, isn't reading the same AP as the rest of us.
Ginge

[circle kay]

Ginger Beer,

A letter was published in King and Country (AKA RAF News) about 2 months ago about this very subject (name and address withheld on request. It wasn't you was it?) The reply from Insworth clamed that some of the paragraphs of the section on NCA PAS in 3392 applied only to the Officer PAS. Even Lionel Hutz Who is Lionel Hutz (http://www.snpp.com/guides/hutz.file.html) could drive a bus through that:)

Judging by the times of your posts I guess that you are in the Sandbox. Pop down to the TV cabin when you’ve finished on Tinternet. You will probably find a copy of the appropriate RAF News under that pile of Country Life Mags no one reads

[Ginger Beer]

Circle,

Yep twas moi :} however, I didn't see the edition, do you have a date of that rag ?

The comment from the grownups that you state is pants, as I went to both NCA PAS and Orrifice PAS sections of the AP and the text was the same with regards to my issue i.e. "pay is supposed to be de-coupled from rank".

I'm not in the sandy place right now so I will have to try to find a back copy to read the company propoganda and their version of the truth.

The thread of my letter was obviously similar to this post and related however, this post was intended to raise the TOS/NCA PAS/AFPS05 points. But if we can move both issues forward, then heh ?

Ginge

[Avtur]

Ginge.
The following is quoted from the PAS TOS extant in Apr 03 and should still be valid (unless changed by stealth with JPA):

"9. Entry on to the PA.
Entry onto the PA will be by selection and the number of personnel selected each year will be commensurate with each Service’s manning requirement. The age and experience of those selected must assist the Services in moving towards their SEP. The selection arrangements for each Service may differ but they will share a number of common features. The initial identification of personnel who are eligible for entry to the PA will normally take place within 1-3 years before their IPP; however, they will not enter the PA until their IPP and only then if they continue to meet all the eligibility criteria"... "Personnel may enter the PA immediately (but not before the PA implementation date) and, subject to meeting the performance criteria, be entitled to a pay increment on their IDD until such time as they reach the bar associated with their aircrew specialisation, whereupon they will standstill. They will continue to benefit from any annual pay awards made by the AFPRB."

I think that makes it clear that entry to the PAS is at the IPP. If you are on AFPS 05, then according to the above, you transfer to the PAS at age 40 or after 18 years service (whichever is later). For those on AFPS 05, 22 years is just some random number that is meaningless. Incidently, the mention of "the bar associated with their aircrew specialisation" is only applicable to Commissioned Aircrew. NCA, as correctly mentioned previously, are barred by rank.

I was lucky enough to be offered PAS at the last board in Nov 05. I signed over to AFPS 05 in Mar 06 for the all-time good deal. My 40th birthday is Aug 06 and I complete 22 years service in Nov 06. Although there is no financial adversity for me, I have been told that I will not transfer until Nov 06. This is clearly different to the above policy.

[Ginger Beer]

Avtur,

TYVM for that. It is good to see the quote from an AP.

Unfortunately PMA have stated recently to an NCA forum, despite sending a letter to the contrary, that they do not expect peeps on AFPS 05 to be offered PAS at their 18/40 point, which as you say is their new IPP (even if it's not called that now). This does suggest that they are not complying with the TOS that you quote however, the lawyers will probably argue on technicalities like the use of the term "IPP". :yuk:

I wish I had seen my reply from the RAF Bi monthly popoganda rag wrt the "pay de-coupled from rank" issue. Perhaps Nimblast or Circle Kay could post it? I had this very same conversation with AVM Dusty Millar, as he was/is? and he couldn't understand the reason for the difference either. He promised to look into it, that was about 3 yrs ago now :=

Ginge

[nimblast]

Sorry Ginger beer,
I've not seen your article or the offical answer in the RAF propaganda News. Love to get hold of a copy though, what was the date of the raf News with the reply?

[Ginger Beer]

Sorry Nimblast,

Checking back - it was circle kay who had seen the offending article about 2 mths ago, I missed it :ugh:

If we all ask Circle nicely, perhaps he could post the reply here and save us 70p for a back copy (if we new the date). After all, I'm not a wealthy NCA PAS type yet and if PMA are going to get their way, I won't be for a few more years :{

Ginge

[circle kay]

ginge
Sorry for delay i'm away at the moment. When I'm back I'll look it up.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Whilst I fully aggree there is something smelly with the way knockers PA is administered I for one am content with my lot. I can only get to level 20 anyway so maybe a bit of a shellfish aptitude but I am feckin streets ahead dosh wise courtesy of PA and Pension 05 so bring on 55 and FULL RETIREMENT............could'nt have managed that before:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[goatmanni]

Always

You seem well excited with the combination of PAS and AFPS 05 (maybe rightly so for your personal circumstances). But, just one point - Lets hope you stay medically fit for service otherwise under AFPS 05 you might just find yourself less well-off than you would be under AFPS 75.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

PLease explain :eek:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Not Long Here]

ABIW,

If for any reason, medical or otherwise, you have to retire prior to aged 55 and you are on the new scheme, you will not get your full pension at age 55.

[BEagle]

Indeed. It is the 'lock-in' which people on the PAS face which, to me, made it look so flawed when it was first announced.

Are you sure that retiring before 55 means that the pension will be received at 55? I thought that 60 was being considered by Bliar's liars?

[No Vote Joe]

I'm not an expert, but this is how I understand it. If you retire before 55 you will not receive your FULL pension until age 65, but you do get something.

Initially you receive a 50% pension and a tax free gratuity (called an Early Departure Payment, 3x full pension), at age 55 your pension increases to 75%, then at 65 you get the full whack plus another tax free gratuity (3x full pension).

Unfortunately, you cannot commute any of your pension to increase your lump sum.

Lets say your full pension was £20,000. Retire @ 50, receive £60k plus £10k pa, @ 55 pension rises to £15k pa, @ 65 pension rises to £20k plus another £60k lump sum.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Why would anyone retire before 55 having comitted to PAS and the new pension scheme, not sure I can see where this is going:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[No Vote Joe]

Now, there's the glitch where the new scheme works in your favour.

If you retire at 54 yrs and 11 months, you get a 75% pension for 10 yrs, but you also get 2 large, tax free lump sums (1 immediately, 1 at 65), then 100% pension at 65. Take into account tax etc, balance it against living until your 65th birthday, and you should be quite considerably better off!!

Try putting the figures into the pensions calculator, it's very interesting. ;)

[BEagle]

"Why would anyone retire before 55 having comitted to PAS and the new pension scheme, not sure I can see where this is going...."

Mate - you no longer have such an option - unless you want to be severely penalised financially.

I didn't think I'd ever retire before NRD. But by late 2002, I finally couldn't stand the way the RAF was going, so pulled the B&Y some while later after calculating the optimum date for pension and leave accumulation purposes.

At least that was an option I still had. You won't have that, I'm afraid, under PAS....

[LFFC]

Why would anyone retire before 55 having comitted to PAS and the new pension scheme, not sure I can see where this is going:E
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Answer: If you're PAS and loose your aircrew medical category, you revert to CS pay status - or you can leave. If you stay for more than a year after loosing your aircrew status, then your pension will be based on your new, lower salary - therefore, you'll take a big hit to your pension!

Perhaps that's why JPA is meant to be so good at tracking aircrew medical status! I can't see that anyone should have any worries on that score then!! :rolleyes:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Answer: If you're PAS and loose your aircrew medical category, you revert to CS pay status - or you can leave. If you stay for more than a year after loosing your aircrew status, then your pension will be based on your new, lower salary - therefore, you'll take a big hit to your pension!

Am I any worse off now than I would have been if I had stayed on the old pension scheme in this scenario?

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[snakepit]

Ginger Beer
In response to your original question about being able to go onto the PAS at your EDP date instead of your IPP date, which in your case I presume is eairler, you may want to point Binnsworth to the new JSP 754 which says:

General
05.0704. The PAS is compatible with the principles of Pay 2000. PAS NCA do not receive Specialist Pay (Flying) (SP(F)) as their basic rates of pay are enhanced to recognise their aircrew skills and employment in flying and flying related appointments. Those NCA not on the PAS will continue to receive basic pay and SP(F) appropriate to their rank and specialism.

Eligibility
05.0705. The following NCA are eligible to be considered for entry to the

PAS:
c. Royal Air Force. Individuals at or beyond their IPP/EDP

IPP – after 16 years’ reckonable service for officers and 22 years’ reckonable service for ORs.
EDP – available to officers’ and ORs on reaching age 40 and completion of at least 18 years reckonable service.

I havent had much chance to read the rest yet but it seems they may have done you a favour with the above rule. You can find the JSP at http://defenceintranet.diiweb.r.mil.uk/NR/rdonlyres/15C2804E-05B7-49AC-9BE6-BFDABCD91F74/0/Chap5Sec7 on the intranet.
It takes a while to load but eveyone should have a look as it looks as if we have had a whole new TOS imposed upon us once again, on the sly.F:mad: g w:mad: s.
You aint seen me right.

[circle kay]

Ginger Beer,
your letter was in the RAF News dated 12 May 2006 in 'Have Your Say' on Page 16. For those who do not keep Pravda to refer back to. I enclose the full letter and reply, including 'the only one m in Non-Commissioned' by Sqn Ldr X



‘A fundamental inequality’

EQUAL opportunity is a well used phrase within the RAF. It is pivotal to our ethos and quite rightly so.

With this in mind I would like to bring to your attention an inequality within our pay and conditions between officer aircrew and non-commissioned aircrew - or NCA.

An officer who is paid in accordance with the Professional Aviator Spine (PAS), has the advantage of being able to achieve a certain incremental pay level regardless of them being promoted; i.e. given the requisite number of years on the pay spine, if a flight lieutenant pilot joins the PAS, they will achieve the highest incremental level even if they do not get promoted to squadron leader and beyond. Their pay is decoupled from rank in accordance with AP3392 Volume 2, leaflet 1810, paragraph 5.

NCA on the PAS are only able to achieve certain incremental pay levels which are based purely on their rank.

This contradicts AP3392 Volume 2, leaflet 1811, paragraph 5, which details the PAS with regards to non-commissioned aircrew.

Paragraph 5 states quite clearly, as it does with our commissioned brethren, that: "the PAS has only one pay range, where rank and pay have been decoupled".

I, therefore, do not understand why non-commissioned aircrew are only able to achieve the higher incremental pay levels of the NCA PAS if they are subsequently promoted?

How can the AP state that "rank and pay have been decoupled" if you have to get promoted to a higher rank to achieve higher pay?

Perhaps I am a cynic and expect the answer will be removal of that sentence from the Air Publication; however, there would still remain a fundamental inequality between the two pay spines.

Name and address withheld on request.


Official reply - The Professional Aviator Pay Spine (PAS) was introduced on April 1, 2003 for commissioned aircrew. The principle underpinning the introduction of the PAS was that pay and rank are decoupled and personnel will rise by an Increment each year regardless of rank.

There are however, bars to progression for commissioned aircrew based on their sub-specialisation.

On April 1, 2004, following the recommendations of the Airmen Aircrew Sustainability Study, non-comissioned aircrew were allowed to access the PAS although the bar associated with progression was based on rank rather than sub-specialisation.

The rank-associated bars were imposed to reflect the different terms of service between non-comissioned aircrew and commissioned aircrew.

Non-comissioned aircrew are currently selected for the PAS at the 22-year point whereby the vast majority are likely to be either flight sergeant or master aircrew rank and therefore near or at the top of the non-commissioned rank structure.

Commissioned aircrew currently enter the PAS at their 38/18 point at either flight lieutenant or, in some cases, squadron leader rank.

To provide them with an incentive, to serve to age 55, while still, in most cases, a junior officer, pay and rank on the PAS were decoupled.

Equally, whereas non-comissioned aircrew can attain the top of the non-commissioned rank structure while remaining on the PAS and attract the pension benefits associated with this, commissioned aircrew must leave the PAS on promotion to wing commander.

The first sentence of AP3392 Volume 2, leaflet 1811, paragraph 5 refers specifically to the PAS as a whole - the remainder of the paragraph clarifies the rules for non-comissioned aircrew serving on the PAS.

Sqn Ldr Name withheld by Circle Kay for posting on PPRUNE, S02 additional pay and pensions policy (RAF).

[/INDENT]

[ChezTanker]

Answer: If you're PAS and loose your aircrew medical category, you revert to CS pay status - or you can leave. If you stay for more than a year after loosing your aircrew status, then your pension will be based on your new, lower salary - therefore, you'll take a big hit to your pension!

Am I any worse off now than I would have been if I had stayed on the old pension scheme in this scenario?

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Mmmm.. I understood the rules allowed the highest pay, rounded up by wage inflation to current year, in the last 3 years service to be considered for EDP and Final Pension. Also for PA reverting to CS - I understood that you go on a special rate not CS and then mark time.

Note to self to read pamphlets in drawer again...and again ... .

[Ginger Beer]

Circle,

Vous est le garcon,

The Sqn Ldr did a good job of stating the obvious and all those facts already known however, he didn't answer the feckin question.

The only question that I posed was: How can the AP state that "rank and pay have been decoupled" if you have to get promoted to a higher rank to achieve higher pay? (And this was within the NCA leaflet of the AP.)

In his answer he states the reasoning behind the policy but does not address the fact that it is not an equal opportunity. The various recent studies have lauded themselves on creating equal opportunities for all e.g. 18/40 etc, etc. The PAS was "sold" to us as equal for O's and NCA however, as I have shown, it is not.

It is a shame that the good Sqn Ldr didn't acknowledge the fact and staff a proper response, which should have included a re-think at least. If AVM Dusty Millar thought it was supposed to be the same for O's and NCA, you would think that the good Sqn Ldr would too?

Thanks again Circle, you have saved me 70p and as I'm not on PAS and am unlikely to stay around long enough now, I need all the dosh I have.

Cheers,

Ginge