Protection of young people in the Air Cadets

[Thesnitcher]

:= I understand that civilians wishing to serve on a VGS are subject to scrutiny through the usual CRB channels-quite rightly so. However, it is rumoured that personnel already serving within HM Armed Forces, be they commissioned or non-commissioned are not subject to such background checks. Why should this be so when there have been several well publicised cases of senior officers who have been found guilty of improper behaviour in the company of young people.

[TheEvilDiesel]

Any member of HM forces wishing to assist with cadet activities needs to have an "Enhanced" CRB clearance.

This can be actioned via whatever they call PSF these days.

Additionally they need written authority from their OC.

For normal camp type activities there has to be a member of cadet staff present, thus removing the need for CRB.

[tonkatechie]

We've got a youngster coming to our place for 'work experience'. The pre-arrival pack we got said that anyone who isn't allowed to work with kids is supposed to declare it before said child arrives. Hardly thorough, is it? On the other hand, we have to get him to sign the Official Secrets Act...:ugh:

[Thesnitcher]

Unbelievable-the weight of preserving national security placed on kid's shoulders and yet apparent loopholes in their protection-whatever next!
It's not surprising that certain agencies only pay lipservice to procedural matters.

[airborne_artist]

It's just taken about 10 months to get MoD CRB clearance for a padre for an ACO squadron. She's already cleared by the CRB in her role as C of E minister, but the MoD would not accept it.

The time taken to obtain CRB clearance is a major issue in recruiting adult staff.

[November4]

I am CRB checked because 'er indoors is a childminder (everyone over a certain age in the house has to checked).

But that CRB check is not good enough for the ATC and I have to have another one done

Cynic in me wonders if that is anything to do with the double fee that the CRB agency will get for the 2 checks......:eek:

[Mach the Knife]

:confused: Yes that is a bit odd, why does it have to be duplicated for similar circumstances. I had to get an enhanced CRB check to help out at my childs local cub pack. I then had to go through the whole procedure again, to work the occasional weekend on an AEF. However, rather oversafe than devastated by the actions of some of the wierdos occupying this planet.

[rsr3]

While I would agree with being extra safe, you would not believe the number of genuinely enthusiastic staff we have that just get fed up of waiting for a CRB check to come through.

Quite frankly, I don't blame them for leaving after six months of waiting. When you're working full time who wants to spend their valuable weekends off sitting around unable to get involved just because some pen-pusher can't be motivated enough to push his pen a little quicker?

[airborne_artist]

I was told by a Wing SO (so it must be true) that the Army staff the Mil CRB at Imber Barracks in York. He reckoned that they prioritise ACF applications over ATC (and possibly SCC as well). Sounds good, but far more likely that it's not staffed/resourced properly, hence the backlog. No point in spending more money on it, as there's no operational advantage in doing so, will be their thinking.

[vigilant_spacey]

The CRB check taken by ACO personel is very very through, and as others have said takes months, sometimes more than a year if you are really unlucky!

I have this clearance, and just started a job with a large company. they having nothing to do with young people, but require a CRB check. This is due back tomorrow, and I applied last thursday. My ACO CRB check didnt count because it was for a different purpose.

Funny system - CRB doesnt apply in Northern Ireland, why bother!

[airborne_artist]

I find it hard to imagine that the CRB check for a teacher or Police officer is less thorough than for a Cadet instructor/officer.

[Stuff]

Having jumped through this hoop several times there are a number of slight inaccuracies/misleading comments here.

There's no such thing as one CRB check not being good enough for another organisation. It's not the case that the MOD refuses to accept the child minder's CRB check.

The system that has been established (by the government) allows for a CRB check for one position only. Section B on the form clearly states "Details of position for which Disclosure is being requested". This is to prevent one CRB check being carried out which produces a negative result and then the applicant using this old CRB check as justification for a position of trust when they may have commited offences subsequent to the old check. By limiting the CRB check to one position only it forces the employer to make a fresh check thus revealing the most up-to-date results. Thus the MOD are actually carrying out their responsibilities quite properly when they ask for a new check.

Now I agree that this seems like paperwork for paperwork sake but it is for a good reason. The root cause of the problem is the length of time that a CRB check takes. Imagine that one could be achieved in 24 hours. Would you complain so hard then? I bet not. I fail to believe that a CRB check is anything more than a database search that should take 5 mins max, how this can turn into a 10 month marathon is the real issue here. Not the requirement for fresh checks each time.

Also, I'm somewhat confused by vigilant_spacey's comments:

I have this clearance, and just started a job with a large company. they having nothing to do with young people, but require a CRB check. This is due back tomorrow, and I applied last thursday.

How can you possibly know when it is due back? There is no system in place to inform the subject of the CRB that it has been completed or that it is even being processed until the results certificate arrives. I can only assume that this has been told to you in error by the company's HR department or this isn't the same CRB check the rest of us are talking about. The real CRB check is titled "Disclosure Application Form" and has a purple logo on the top right corner and a barcode next to it.

just my 2 cents

[Insidejob]

One thing is really worrying here. When I was looking at flying with the air cadets, I was told by the CO of a gliding school that it was a waste of time, overly bureaucratic and that allowances would be made because of my service background. Who is making these rules, the security services, the MOD or the CO's. On checking this with the ACO it seemed that there were several sets of rules-some written, some unwritten; depending on who you were. Case for debate?

[Maple 01]

The key here, I'm led to believe, is if there is regular, frequent contact, someone popping down once, now and again to do a spot of lecturing doesn’t need a CRB – That’s from Cranwell Seniors course last week

I don't think the bloke in the front of a glider would need one

[charliegolf]

Some interesting points raised, and my take on them:

Why repeat them/ force new checks? People can (and do ) commit crimes AFTER being checked and cleared. Teachers now looking at 3-Years, some LEAs 6 monthly for non fulltimers.

Irregular visits? No need for any checks if the visitor is not left alone with kids- not solo so to speak. The buck stops with the teacher/instructor/unit.

CRB check not 'good enough' for an organisation? Standard Disclosure isn't good enough for working with kids- must be enhanced. That might be the confusion. (Not in the childminder example, granted)

[FJJP]

A colleague of mine left the RAF after a full career which included a current enhanced vetting (his, you couldn't get any higher). He applied for a job at an area HQ with the ATC [J Class commission?] for which he had to be security vetted. They would not accept his current vetting, even though it's the same people doing it.

10 month later he got the go-ahead to work. Talk about a gross waste of the taxpayers' money?

CRB checks are also required for those in the health service who may have to have contact with children - doctors, nurses, etc. That is administered by the local Primary Care trust, who hold the records. Now before you employ a nurse in the local surgery, you have to wait for the check to come through - weeks and weeks of waiting involved.

The system is not keeping up with demand, because the resources or funding have not been allocated. Central gov seems content to make up these laws as they go along, without fully considering the consequences. The country is in danger of grinding slowly to a halt under the weight of under-resourced bureaucracy.

[air pig]

The ATC used to do all its own security checks through the PSS, following filling in duplicate a form 177 ident. This was happening in the 70s. I know of at least one person who was told told to go and never return to the unit on instructions from PSS. The current system is a total shambles. I work for the NHS and enhanced CRB checks for urgently required staff takes weeks if not months. I suppose it saves maney, but it does p**s off applicants, who lay the blame at our door.

[L J R]

I might have missed something here. AEF pilots ARE background checked to work with young people- FACT. Is is not thru MOD channels, but throught he 'normal' child workers checking channels. The process thru the normal channels is generally swifter if you are current commisioned serving (unsure why) but the level of check is the same as any civillian.

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

For normal camp type activities there has to be a member of cadet staff present, thus removing the need for CRBI would have thought "normal camp type activities" would have been the exact time a CRB was needed...Matron

[dinoorin]

This thread started stating that VGS peeps may not need a CRB, other posters have stated that it probably isnt needed.
HELLO - given that the guys in the aircraft (AEF and VGS) are probably closer to the cadets for longer than the normal air cadet guys, I would say makes the answer obvious.
Simple answer - if you are civvy or serving you need a CRB to work with the cadets in an unsupervised role. That means that all the pilots in VGS or AEF have been fully vetted. Quite right too given the trusted position we hold.
Hope that helps and helps stop further theories.:)

[Insidejob]

Spot on dinoorin. Yep they do spend time alone in the cockpit with a cadet-once they have the qualifications needed and my bet is that certain instructors are getting away with it-with the full knowledge of their superiors. No prizes for guessing which VGS that might be.

[greycoat]

FJJP, in similar position to your friend, however, our DV checks are to ascertain whether we are liable to blackmail etc rather than establishing our suitability to work with youngsters/vulnerable adults. Sadly the two are not necessarily compatible. G

[vigilantee]

Firstly, I would like to apologise to all concerned in the ACO and VGS organisation for replying to this thread and returning it to the top (not for too long I hope).

It frustrates me enormously that yet another other thread is infected with the anti 'guess which VGS' tone. I am outraged that the known anti 'guess which VGS' individuals may anonymously post such statements as "my bet is that certain instructors are getting away with it" on a thread as sensitive as "Protection of young people in the Air Cadets " anonymously and without substantiation. I know this is a rumour forum but yet again they have overstepped the mark and have intimated many other instructors beyond the individual with which they have an axe to grind.

To the perpetrators: If you have something to be investigated then report it through the appropriate channels. If not then - please - hush - for the sake of the organisation you recently belonged to. Time has moved on. That famous VGS has moved on. Can you now also please move on.

Thanks.

V.

[frigthestoat]

This is a perfectly healthy thread V-issue is topical at the moment.From the tone of your posting you seem to have something to hide?

[background]

On the subject of CRB's the normal system can take about 10 months to work it's way through the system. The Scottich disclosure system CRB's have been coming back in 3 weeks or so, which is obviously great news for stopping new staff getting disinterested.

I see Frig can't stop himself seeing a thread vaguely related to the VGS world opening his fat mouth and trying to have a go at a perfectly well formed VGS that is now performing very well.

Cheers
Background

[teeteringhead]

Why does it take so long (the CRB check)? If I get arrested, then the police can find out instantly if I've got a record (well, they do on "The Bill"). So how can it take many months??

And there can be additional rules. On an AEF I know, and I presume all, the following rules apply to the "gents":

1. If a pilot (adult) goes into the gents and there is a cadet in there, he (the adult) must do a quick 180 and leave immediately.

2. If the pilot is already in there and a cadet enters, the adult must also leave immediately.

Both can be difficult tasks for middle-aged men...................;)

[PhoenixDaCat]

I am CRB checked because 'er indoors is a childminder (everyone over a certain age in the house has to checked).
But that CRB check is not good enough for the ATC and I have to have another one done
Cynic in me wonders if that is anything to do with the double fee that the CRB agency will get for the 2 checks......:eek:

CRB checks are not all equivalent. You need an enhanced one to join the staff within the ACO. Not sure about the double fee thing, as I thought that all were done internally, and not by external companies.

[PhoenixDaCat]

The key here, I'm led to believe, is if there is regular, frequent contact, someone popping down once, now and again to do a spot of lecturing doesn’t need a CRB – That’s from Cranwell Seniors course last week
I don't think the bloke in the front of a glider would need one

And it was also established on that course last week that the guys who kit the cadets up in their parachutes, and therefore have close physical contact, are not CRB cleared, as the key rquirement for a CRB is that you have to have "regular contact", the key word being REGULAR.

Caused a right old stir with one member of the course did that.

[frigthestoat]

Background; sorry if I upset you but did you have any particular VGS in mind as I was talking in general terms on this one. I'm delighted that your VGS is now performing well -whatever VGS that might be-and assuming that it was cr** before. Before what might I ask ?!

[Ash679]

CRB checks can take a while, and can hold up the application process for new adult staff, or when a CI goes into uniform either as an Adult SNCO or VR(T) Officer.

However, the wording of ATC regulations on the matter does not - if you read between the lines - preclude new applicants (e.g. CIs) from service whilst their CRB/application is pending, it just says that they must not have UNSUPERVISED access to the cadets. For example, very few Civilian Committee members will be CRB'd (I would imagine), but will do welfare jobs such as running the Sqn canteen etc. however, in doing so, they are not given unsupervised access.

If an applicant is happy to work "escorted" until their CRB/official appointment comes back, there is no problem (although this needs to be made clear to them). For example, I have 2 CIs - both brothers, and ex-RAF - on my Sqn. One brother joined before the other, and was cleared by the time his brother joined up. Therefore, they worked together until the other brothers' CRB came through, so that his access to the cadets was not unsupervised. Incidentally, this worked rather well, as he was able to gain some valuable instructional technique training by observing his brother in action...

[Two's in]

Apologies for the Jet Blast tone of this, but as someone who knows very little of the VGS activities, there is a definite underlying insinuation in just about every thread that has popped up in the last 6 months or so about the conduct or professionalism of that organization. With absolutely no axe to grind on this, it is not difficult to think that there is either some organizational issue that keeps reoccurring and is worthy of examination, or there is a coordinated attempt to besmirch the VGS. Don't mistake me for someone who cares, but a quick audit of the threads and subjects is very illuminating for anyone who does.

[noisy]

If you want to work in the RAFM you have to pass something called a police check. This is because you may be working with young people and collection materials.
It took about two weeks for mine to come through - does anyone know what the difference is compared to the CRB check described above?

N.

[Chinchilla.612]

Noisy,
There are varyious levels of checks which can be carried out and the length of time taken can vary a lot. A standard police check takes next to no time at all, whilst an enhanced crb check can take much longer.
I keep myself very busy as a volunteer on a cadet squadron and also a vgs and although I already had an enhanced check through the vgs, when I joined the cadet squadron another was required. I also have an enhanced check for my part time job working as a taxi driver, and all of these checks are required to be renewed periodically and independantly. This is because a check is specific to a job/company and is printed on the disclosure. (Just glad I don't need one for the day job too!)
I would personally much prefer these thorough checks (even if they take a while) than for people to "slip through the net". And as has already been stated with new staff there is nothing to stop them instructing or joining in so long as they are not left alone/unsupervised with cadets.
Two's in,
To answer your question, I've visited a number of vgs's as a relief instructor over the last few years and experienced very few problems. My own experience as a cadet and as adult staff has been a very good one and I have yet to meet a cadet who hasn't gained from the ACO as a whole. I can't comment on the experiences that have been raised by a couple of posters on here, but can tell you that I have personally never encountered anything similar myself.
Safe flying to all.
Chinchilla.

[PhoenixDaCat]

All a CRB check demostrates is that you've not yet been caught! :}

[Chinchilla.612]

Very true Phoenix, but you have to start somewhere........even if it's just to exclude the people who HAVE already been caught and are therefore a known risk?!? :ok:

[Blacksheep]

When I was in the ATC it was the RAF that needed protection from US! I was only 14 but there was certainly no way any of our squadron were gullible enough to fall victim to an 'adult' pervert. "Nannying" has become the nation's biggest industry. One wonders how far the nanny state will go before the lower band tax rate inevitably reaches 100%. :rolleyes:

[Basil]

Blacksheep,
Agreed - Wife's school had to delay opening after hols for a day or two because of work overrun and builders (not cleared to work with children) still on site :eek:

[NightFlit]

The whole situation with the need for CRB Clearances has been blown out of all proportions over the years. As has already been made clear on this thread, the CRB only stops those who have already offended!

If the appropriete authorities (this includes the dear Government) looked at the facts, it shows very clearly that the MAJORITY of child abuse cases are within the family, NOT a mere volunteer who devotes a considerable amount of free time and effort to help and progress young people!

When people actually realise and except this we might do away with such crap as CRB checks ... but then one could argue its job protectionism - not only for the Civil Servants but the Lawyers etc.

VGS activities, there is a definite underlying insinuation in just about every thread that has popped up in the last 6 months or so about the conduct or professionalism of that organization.

When someone gets upset or they get a bee under their bonnet, its human nature that they blow anything out of proportions in a very sad immature way :ugh:. For an organisation that is continually standardised, these vicious rumours are clearly personal crudges of some sort in an attempt to satisfy perhaps the fact they are no longer part of a very good flying training system. Each thread that is raised, the same response is given back - if you think there is a problem go to the appropriete authorities - the fact they don't speaks for itself, they are :mad: and have no substance!

[boswell bear]

The whole situation with the need for CRB Clearances has been blown out of all proportions over the years. As has already been made clear on this thread, the CRB only stops those who have already offended!


and been caught!

[NightFlit]

..quite! Which makes the CRB process even more obsurd!

From what I remember from the research done some years ago (I think within social services), it was about 25% of children are open to some form of abuse from within the family. While a lot of people disregard it, because the stats are so high, it is sadly true fact.

[heights good]

The world has eventually went nuts!!! The absolute paranoia about every adult who stands within 200ft of a child is some kind of deviant is ridiculous. It has got too the stage where adults will no longer want to work with children for fear of being labelled a "kiddie fiddler" or other such names. A very good friend was interviewed by the police for having "inaproppriate images" of children. He spent 5 hrs in custody. The images were of his own 2yr old son and daughter in the bath!!! Apparently it is law now that photo developers now have a duty too report such heinous crimes. The world has went peadophile crazy! I do agree that checks need to be made, however a certain amount of common sense needs to be applied.

Anyway, rant over!! :mad: :*