Did he really want to say that?

[Seat 17]

Watching the BBC News 24 channel earlier this evening, my eye was caught by a piece filmed on a GK E3A doing surveillance ops over the World Cup stadiums.
Nothing new about that, High Value Events have oft been covered by the E3 component. But when the American Colonel (Tactical Director), in charge of the mixed NATO crew, was asked about possible outcomes if they spotted a renegade aircraft he said,

"well, they might scramble fighter aircraft to intercept and, as we saw in 9/11, possibly shoot down the aircraft"

I would have loved to sit in on his debriefing post-mission!

Seat 17

[microlight AV8R]

Splendid ! I love a good conspiracy theory to make life more interesting ;)

[sonicstomp]

Bless - such a valuable contribution to western security that outfits makes....

[Seat 17]

But is it just a conspiracy theory, or is something more afoot?

[SASless]

Seat,

What is your point? Are you miffed he said that or are you miffed an errant aircraft might be intercepted or are you miffed they might actually shoot down an aircraft positioning itself for an attack on one of the World Cup Stadiums with tens of thousands of possible victims?

[microlight AV8R]

Or, is he just being subtle :cool:

[Skunkerama]

Seat,

What is your point? Are you miffed he said that or are you miffed an errant aircraft might be intercepted or are you miffed they might actually shoot down an aircraft positioning itself for an attack on one of the World Cup Stadiums with tens of thousands of possible victims?

Don't think he's "miffed" but it could be said that the guy admitted that the Pensylvania plane was brought down by military force as some loopy conspiracy theorists have claimed.

I'm sure we would all be happy if a civilian plane was brought down if it was lining up on a stadium, especially if it was England playing, not sure about Germany Brazil or Argentina though.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Subtlety........Our cousins don't do that which is probably why Sensless missed it AV8:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[microlight AV8R]

Subtlety........Our cousins don't do that which is probably why Sensless missed it AV8:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Yes, thanks for that. I really must remember that these other chaps from overseas tend to lack our primary weapon (humour) :cool:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

If you remember that "Farty Towels" was a concept they could'nt cope with then you can assume that anything on here even remotely "alternative" is going to sail straight over their heads:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[SASless]

Perhaps it is the fact the aircraft was commanded by someone so inferior that bothers you there Wilts. Must be terrible having to suffer such a travesty. But then Montgomery felt that way all during the World War II especially after IKE put him firmly in his place (which was not superior in rank to IKE).

Seems a lot of you have not gotten over it yet.

[Samuel]

Did he really want to say that?

Yes he did, but as spoken English differs from country to country, [and even from county to county in England!], especially in the US and UK, "divided by a common language", I believe y'all should read again what was actually said.

"well, they might scramble fighter aircraft to intercept and, as we saw in 9/11, possibly shoot down the aircraft"


This doesn't say an aircraft was shot down on 9/11. What he's suggesting is that given the thousand and one "ifs" that needed to be in place for one of the aircraft to be shot down,combined with stratagies developed after 9/11, then it might have been an option.He's talking hindsight!

As for speculation on whether one was [shot down], there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to suggest that happened.

[Samuel]

"Seems a lot of you have not gotten over it yet".

Don't worry SASless; just give Spielberg all the money he needs and he'll re-write history in movie form to show Monty never left England, and Ike won the war entirely alone!:D

For the record, despite Spielbergs smart-arse screenplay in "Private Ryan" denigrating Monty and his army, there are buried in Normandy :13,800 Americans [2,055 missing],17,000 British [1,808 missing], plus 5,110 Canadians, 729 Poles, 246 French, 27 Australians, 19 New Zealanders, 7 South Africans, 7 Russians, 3 Czechs, 2 Italians and 2 Belgians.

[SASless]

Sam,




Ike and Monty – Command Collisions

The task of creating the tremendous war coalition of allies for the purpose of invading Nazi-occupied Europe was a matter requiring the cooperation of many governments. But the task of managing the combat operations of that coalition was up to a single individual, General Dwight D. Eisenhower. Ike went to great lengths to hold the coalition together. He worked hard to maintain cordial relations with his subordinate commanders as he exercised his duties as Supreme Commander. But Field Marshal Sir Bernard Law Montgomery of Great Britain created a series of contentious incidents that finally developed into a direct command collision with Ike near the end of the war. The situation came very close to ripping the alliance asunder.
Both Ike and Monty came from humble origins and earned their way to the top of their respective hierarchies. But there the similarities ended. With his warm smile and optimistic demeanor, Eisenhower welcomed frank discussion and was often willing to accommodate and even compromise in the interest of allied unity. Monty, on the other hand, was stubborn, rebarbative, and prone to self-aggrandizement at the slightest opportunity. Nothing induced Monty to compromise. Even Churchill once used the word “insufferable” when referring to Montgomery.
Though Eisenhower was Supreme Commander of the Allied forces invading Normandy in 1944, Montgomery had temporary command of allied ground troops for the duration of the assault on the beaches. After the beaches were secure and Ike’s headquarters had been established in Normandy, Monty would command all British and Canadian ground forces and Bradley would command the American armies. Montgomery and Bradley were to be co-equals under Eisenhower.
After the D-Day successes, the British government promoted Montgomery to field marshal (a non-existent rank in the U.S. Army). In the eyes of the Brits, this put Monty senior to Bradley and made permanent his status as commander of all allied ground forces on the continent. Thus, when Eisenhower moved his headquarters to Normandy — whereupon his jurisdiction was limited to command of British and Canadian ground forces — the British press and Montgomery bitterly expressed their displeasure at Monty having been “demoted.” In fact Monty had not been demoted and had known long in advance that his role would revert to equality with Bradley after the invasion succeeded. This knowledge, however, didn’t dissuade Monty from publicly agreeing with the British press and demanding that Eisenhower turn over all ground command to him. Ike stuck to the original plan.
As the war in Western Europe progressed Monty continually demanded to be appointed overall ground commander. Ike politely ignored the demands, but it became increasingly difficult for him to deal with Montgomery on major issues. The Combined Chiefs of Staff of Britain and America had approved, and never changed, Eisenhower’s basic “broad front” war strategy, but Monty continuously badgered Ike to abandon the broad front strategy and attack with a single overpowering “narrow” thrust into Germany. Of course, Monty’s demands always included himself as commander of the spear-like thrust.
Finally, Ike agreed to let Monty try his single thrust theory and approved his plan to drive 60 miles straight through Holland and enter Germany over the Arnhem Bridge. Eisenhower stopped the advance along the rest of the front and diverted the fuel and supplies to Montgomery for the attack. He also assigned two American paratroop divisions to assist the British forces. Historian Carlo D’Este later characterized Monty’s plan as, “…the most ill-conceived major operation of World War II.” After he lost the battle, Monty did his best to shift the blame to Eisenhower.
The final command collision happened after the Battle of the Bulge. On December 16, 1944 the German army launched a surprise attack into the American-held forests of the Ardennes along the German borders of Belgium and Luxembourg. The Wehrmacht employed 500,000 soldiers and 1,400 tanks to split the allied forces all the way to the Meuse River thereby driving a huge bulge into the American lines. The bloody conflict lasted until the end of January when the American armies pushed the Germans back to their starting point. During the relentless fighting over 19,000 American and 100,000 German soldiers were killed. The British dead amounted to just over 200. It was, by any measure, the largest and deadliest American Army battle of the war. It was also a decisive American victory and the German army never again launched an offensive.
Field Marshal Sir Bernard Law Montgomery’s role in the Battle of the Bulge was to defend the northern shoulder of the Bulge throughout the conflict. He did it almost wholly with American divisions that Eisenhower temporarily transferred to his command early in the battle. While Montgomery held his position, American forces under Bradley and Patton attacked and eventually prevailed.
Towards the end of battle, Montgomery held a press conference, broadcast throughout Britain by the BBC, in which he announced that he had led the British Army to the victory and had saved the day for the Americans. The British press used banner headlines to report that Monty had rescued the Americans from certain defeat.

The American commanders were livid. Thoroughly embarrassed by Montgomery, Winston Churchill rose in the House of Commons to say that American soldiers won the battle and British forces played only a minor role.

Picking the absolute worst time to further upset the supreme allied commander, Montgomery sent Eisenhower another letter demanding that he be promoted to ground-force commander of all allied forces facing Germany. He had finally pushed Ike beyond his limit of endurance with respect to such blatant insubordination. Montgomery’s press conference, the resulting British press reports, and the letter demanding promotion all combined to blatantly suggest to the world that Ike could not handle battle command.
Eisenhower convened a staff meeting at his headquarters, which Monty’s Chief of Staff Major General Francis de Guingand attended, and announced that he was relieving Montgomery of command. Ike circulated a cable he would send the Joint Chiefs of Staff requesting Monty’s removal from office. Unlike his boss, Freddie de Guingand fully recognized that Montgomery would lose in any open confrontation and implored Ike to give him 24 hours to sort out the situation with Montgomery. Reluctantly, Ike agreed.
General de Guingand immediately flew to Montgomery’s headquarters in Brussels and informed him that he would be replaced. It had not dawned on Monty that he had finally pushed Eisenhower too far and that he would lose his command. A chagrined Montgomery sat down and penned a letter to Eisenhower which he began with “Dear Ike” and ended with the words, “Very distressed that my letter may have upset you and I would ask you to tear it up. Your very devoted subordinate, Monty.”
Eisenhower relented and did not send his cable. The crisis that might have split the alliance was over and Montgomery made no more public demands to be promoted. Nothing, however, would ever reduce the ill-will Monty had spread throughout the U.S. command by demeaning the battle quality of the American soldier.

[MarkD]

SASless

I believe the Churchill reference was on Monty's appointment to NATO - "in defeat, indomitable; in victory, insufferable; in NATO, thank God, invisible."

[Blacksheep]

Monty won the crucial victory at Alamein and he did the planning for Overlord but was he brilliant, was he lucky or was he overrated?

I've had the privilege to speak with two veterans of Alamein. Both were tank commanders, but on opposite sides. The British chap told me, they sat next to their tanks waiting for the bombardment to stop, then jumped aboard and headed for the German lines. "The fighting was bedlam - no-one knew what was going on; we just shot up anything we saw and never bothered about who or what it was...."

The German fellow said they hid under their tanks during the bombardment. When it stopped they knew the British were coming , climbed aboard and headed towards our lines. "Ve see zer tank - boom! boom! ve shoot zer tank. Sometimes ve shoot zer Britisher tank. Sometimes ve shoot zer Italian tank (he chuckles) und sometimes ve shoot zer Cherman tank (he laughs out loud)..." He described driving around the desert, shooting anything they saw until they ran out of fuel. English troops arrived and they surrendered. While being driven back behind the lines to a prison camp, their convoy was strafed by German fighters and he lost his left foot. That would be Grey on Grey I suppose...


Doesn't sound like well thought out battle plans from a pair of brilliant Generals does it?

[microlight AV8R]

Firstly let me state that I will live out my days in gratitude to all of those Americans who came across the water to fight and die beside us all those years back. Our lives would have been very different if we had not prevailed. However, I do find it rather crass to repeatedly see that films are so far off the truth as to be fairy tales. I believe there is a film about the colonial chaps capturing the enigma machine and winning the war ? So we didn't need all those boffs at Bletchley Park.

The war was won in September 1940 when Hitler abandoned any pretence of being able to invade these shores. Every time I see a Merlin engine flying in close formation with a Spitfire or Hurricane airframe I get a lump in my throat and look on with a mixture of pride and gratitude.

But we mustn't forget the secret weapon: Personally I consider Dads Army to be the most accurate docu-drama of those momentous days :)

"Vaat iz your name?" "Don't tell him Pike!"

[SASless]

Too true that Hollywood can twist the facts completely out of proportion. That is bad sure enough. What is worse yet is most of their patrons do not know the difference. We agree on that point entirely.

[Skunkerama]

To be fair we are just as guilty of bending truth to fit a good story. Look at Zulu. One of my favorite films but full of inacuracies.

The missionaries were nowhere near Rorks Drift

Very few of the men were welsh and it wasnt a welsh regiment at the time of the battle.

There was no argument as to who would command.

Hook is shown as being a coward and a bad soldier. He was an excellent soldier who had a great career.

Colour Sgt Bourne was only 23

500 wounded Zulus were killed by the British after the battle





It's not just Private Ryan and Pearl Harbour that mess with the truth

[cazatou]

To be pedantic, "Private Ryan" was actually PFC Fritz Niland who fought with his Unit of the 101st Airborne as far as Carentan and was then shipped home as soon as the news had filtered through.

[Samuel]

Correct. There were four Niland brothers; Preston, Robert, and Francis landed in Normandy in different units, whilst Edward was was air-crew in the Pacific.Robert was killed on 6th June at St Mere Eglise, Preston on the 7th at Utah Beach, , and Edward went missing the same week. The authoritities then decided to save the fourth of the Niland boys.The survivor, Francis was sent home, although Edward was discovered to be a POW of the Japanese and later returned home. It was this true story that formed the basis if "Private Ryan". There was, however, no 'hunt' for Francis, they knew where he was!