New Sponsorship (ish) scheme OAT [Archive]

Jenson Button

19th Jun 2006, 17:43

FlyingTom06

19th Jun 2006, 17:53

Thats pretty drastic, im working on about £68000 total for the course as loan from my folks and im hoping tht all its gna cost

Jenson Button

19th Jun 2006, 18:00

Flying Tom,,it always always costs more than you think.

I went the modular route expecting to cough up about 22k and its cost me about 32k (though that did include a rating) AND that doesn't include loss of earnings etc etc.

FlyingTom06

19th Jun 2006, 18:10

im 17 going on 18 and about 9months away from applying, iv alreay got my PPL so loss of earning snt sumin worrying about as im not really earning much anyway only bout £100 a week with my side job! but yeh i knw its flying my ppl cost a grand and half more than i thought and im still to take my skills test! but im going dwn the integrated route and i can handel the financing as the loan is interest free so i guess im lucky!

femaleWannabe

19th Jun 2006, 18:23

Jenson,

That's exactly my point... thought I was the only one thinking this is insane. Even if you forgot about the loss of earnings, that's still a hell of a lot of interest!! I'd much rather take the risk and go modular... sure, it'll take longer, but then I can start on a decent salary! Why pay £60k+++ for something, then be on a reduced salary, when you could pay £30k and be on a proper salary?!?! Am I missing something here? (Apart from the old "integrated is better than modular" argument.)

WingDown

19th Jun 2006, 19:00

Can I just get this clear in my ‘ead….

£64000 – For the course and fees
£6000 – Say costs incurred for your good self incl food, other accom, living expenses
£15000 – Loss of earnings at a low just out of Uni level for the time with OATS
£22500 – Interest on the above over a 5 year period
£39000 – Reduced salary loss of earnings as a Cadet F/O with TCA for three years.

Grand total to you the student - £146500

Of course I’ve rounded it up a little bit, but it’s a ball park figure to play with. As a FO with TCA with a full bells and whistles licence and some experience under your belt, you would have a basic of £33k ish. As a Cadet, last time I checked, £20535 pa.

Can’t help but take sharp intake of breath.

Going modular, getting a couple of years TP experience isn’t going to cost over 1/8 of a million quid ?

Good luck to those that want to embark on this route…… :E :E :E
Unless I am mistaken, the reduced salary is because they are paying back your OAT training fees from your F/O gross salary offering a distinct advantage over a self sponsored student paying for training fees from their net salary.

Please correct me if my interpretation of the financing of the scheme is wrong, however, I think your estimations of the cost to the student participating is wrong.
WD

mad_jock

19th Jun 2006, 19:07

Your not going insane femalewannabie.

It is huge amounts of money to be playing with. But this argument repeats itself every 3 months or so. For some its good value for money and its very strange that anyone could get a job unless they have done an intergrated course. And for others its very strange that anyone would get taken in by this obvious marketing ploy. Although it must be a bit of bitch when your not one of the select few who go to BA or BMI and in your first job your sitting next to a pilot who has payed under half what you have for the same blue book.

Only point I might dispute is that modular takes longer than integrated.

PPL - 3 weeks

Phase one - 8 weeks study

exams 2 weeks course 1 exams

hour build 50 hours- 2 weeks

Phase 2 - 8 weeks study.

exams 2 weeks course 1 weeks exams.

hour build + MEP. 2 weeks.

Cpl - 2 weeks

IR - 8 weeks

MCC - 2 weeks.

41 weeks

5 weeks for the nervous break downs and generally waiting and your all done in under a year. And for 35k less.

Re-Heat

19th Jun 2006, 19:40

Grand total to you the student - £146500
I agree with WingDown. As an accountant, you are mixing current and future costs in a completely random fashion, which are not worth the same. Furthermore, loss of earnings is already factored into your interest rate decision in a way, such that the "investment cost" already considers this.

I would say that £100k would be a far more appropriate figure to factor for this - however that is significantly more than advertised by training providers.

What I don't like about these schemes is the con that they place you on a "cadet" salary, when in many cases the costs of training are NOT secured - I don't know if they are in this case but I would be surprised as this is not a CTC scheme with no risk to you if adequately selected.

However you must consider that if you go for the £30k modular route, that your continuity will not be the same if you have to work in another job at the same time - however hard you work - and/or that additional waiting for a job does cost you real lost earnings, as training departments DO discriminate towards integrated holders of CPL/IR.

Jenson Button

19th Jun 2006, 20:02

Apologies to the accountants amongst us. Agreed, I have mixed current actual costs with future APR costs and some of my figures have been rounded out.

BUT, its back of a fag packet calculations (which you need to do at the sharp pointy front end every day) and they are not that far wide of the mark. At best,I reckon you'll be spending 120k and at worst £145k give or take a bit for interest rates, rise of inflation, earnings etc. Don't even get me started on the T&Cs that the "glad I've just got a flying job at the end of my Rolls Royce Integrated Course" will be getting. Pension, Health care, Loss of Licence etc.

The thread could degenerate into the pro's and con's of integrated versus modular. BA have taken on a few modular guys and gals over the last few years, so its not entirely sewn up.

ITS a Pub guesstimate, but its still pretty incredible abouts of money.

Again, best wishes to those wanting this direction.

Jenson

Like the Murphys, I'm not bitter

EK4457

19th Jun 2006, 21:51

Just to throw my two pennies worth in,
I don't think JB's guestimate is that far out. Oxford themselves say 64,000 plus 13,000.
Add interest, loss of earnings (a fair factor when used as a comparison with modular) and living expenses takes it to well over 100k, more realistically closer to 140k.
Then, there is the rather vague way in which the loan is repaid. Quite why you have to wait untill stage 2 before it is fully explained is a mystery. Obvioulsy not somthing which either party want to advertise!

'successful OAT/TCA candidates will benefit from a special Cadet First Officer salary programme. Over the first 7 years of employment, TCA will repay the graduate's actual OAT training and CAA costs by deduction from their gross salary.'
You start on a cadet salary, of, I believe, 20k (makes sense too as 65k / 7 years = about 10k per year and SO's start on 30k)
A bit of quick maths (not exact):
Salary of 20k = 1600 /month = 1100 after tax.
Minus the interest of over 20,000 (nope- TCA will not be paying that!)
Did you borrow that 13,000 for living expenses? Take that off too.
Notice that nobody has mentioned type rating yet? Doubt they'll be giving them away....
The amount of cash left over per month is eye watering. For SEVEN years.
The 'financial benefit' is just a bit of playing with figures. I've no doubt that this way is slightly cheaper than borrowing the cash for an integrated course, all living expenses and a type rating and then paying that back on 30k for seven years. But who in their right mind would do that (I know some do. :ugh: )
To put it another way, you pay a huge premium to go integrated and get the luxury of a conditional offer from an airline. Is that premium good value? Can you afford it?
For me, working and studying untill CPL stage and then getting a 25k loan for the rest (at Oxford if you must) is the best way to do it. Even if it takes 2 years to get a job, I'll still be financially streets ahead of an equivalent person on this scheme.
But thats just me!
EK

Aerospace101

19th Jun 2006, 23:29

I heard a rumour that the chosen cadets, once employed by TCA, ontop of their basic starting salary, will get £1000 tax free each month - which goes to paying off the £64k training cost. perhaps this is why it is referred to as being 'financially attractive'. Thus you have stay with the airline for 7years for it to be effecitve? Hence, why it is financially better than the self sponsorships offered through FTE and Cabair (Flybe, Thomsonfly, BAConnect)

Pilot Pete

19th Jun 2006, 23:31

An interesting take on facts;

In addition to the security of ‘conditional employment’ So what security would that be? No vacancy, no job. Want cake and eat it comes to mind.

successful OAT/TCA candidates will benefit from a special Cadet First Officer salary programme. Oh yeah? What benefit is having a reduced salary?

Over the first 7 years of employment, TCA will repay the graduate's actual OAT training and CAA costs by deduction from their gross salary. Great, they pay.:ok: Oh, no they don't, YOU pay, they just deduct and pass on the payments from YOUR salary. Got it. Oh and of course 3 years in you WON'T be at all pi**ed off at such a crap salary.

The effect of this 'repayment' arrangement will be that graduates will achieve significant financial benefit compared to the more usual situation of repaying these training costs themselves out of a normal First Officer net salary. But alas not if they pay significantly less for Modular training and get a full F/O salary net from day 1.:ok:

Under the Scheme, OAT training will cost £60,000 plus £4,000 for the CAA test fees. The successful applicants will therefore need approximately £13,000 of their own funds to participate in the programme. So, total £77k. Is that what you pay back through reduced salary or is there interest on this 'loan' not accounted for in these figures?

For UK residents, full security will not be necessary, but the equivalent to a ‘parental guarantee’ will be required by the bank. Check it out parents, you could get stiffed here too!;)

Airline recruitment of a self-sponsored student occurs only after completion of training, meaning that the student bears the entire risk of training failure. In this scheme, the airline shares the risk. Hold on, how does that work. You sign up for the loan, they offer a 'conditional job offer' (presumably one of the conditions being you pass and get the licence issued?) You fail, your loan, with your 'parental guarantee', your problem paying it back, right? Or do TCUK bail you out if you fail, but only make you pay if you pass?:rolleyes: I don't think so. What am I missing here?

OAT will charge a standard Skills Assessment Fee of £195 Oh, just add that to my £77k tab would you please?;)

Any candidate who participates in one or both days of Stage 2 who does not eventually qualify for the OAT/TCA Scheme, would be able to complete the full APP FO Skills Assessment process at no extra charge should they subsequently decide to apply to join the course as a self-sponsored student. WOW! Something for free....!!!!:)

All applicants who reach Stage 2 should be prepared to spend a maximum of 2 days at Oxford Airport. Sorry, how much will that be per day?:confused: Sod it, just add it to the bill. Thanks.

At this initial stage, we would ask that you do not contact us by telephone or e-mail in connection with the Scheme unless you are genuinely facing technical problems over the completion and submission of the application form itself. Could I not phone you to make a downpayment on my account?????:E

Save your money guys, go modular. If the market keeps going the way it is you should get a job anyhow and in 7 years you should have about 5 years experience and more importantly have paid off your £30k loan and potentially have around 5 years on FULL F/O salary. Why do TCUK want to use this scheme? It's not for your benefit, it is for theirs. They, like most airlines want you to take all the risk, you to have the millstone for 7 years because they know time to command in their airline is going up and to quote their former Chief Pilot "I am fed up of 2-3000hr F/Os bleating on about when they are going to get a command." This is why they started using CTC all those years ago getting very low houred pilots who would need at least 7 years to get the hours for a command as opposed to a 2-3000hr experienced F/Os from other airlines. Oh and of course you will be cheap, very cheap.

Enjoy if you go for it, but go in with your eyes open and realize that you probably won't earn enough to get a mortgage for 7 years as well as your loan....

PP

scruggs

20th Jun 2006, 07:07

One good thing I REALLY like about this scheme:

"No upper age limit is given"

I can't go for it this year, but next year - definitely (if it’s offered)!

Good luck to all those who apply this year.

Grass strip basher

20th Jun 2006, 07:38

"This is all completely wrong.
First thing the 15000 for "Loss of earnings" is your own problem if you want to do integrated so that does not count at all."

I hope your grip on your own finances is better than your grip on basic economics! How can you say loss of earnings doesn't count when it comes to the integrated vs modular debate?? .... it is a clear opportunity cost of going down the integrated route vs modular and is a driving factor as to why many people do indeed go modular! How can that "not count at all"? (It was THE issue that drove my decision making)

I have no axe to grind I think Oxford is a first rate school but it is very expensive. You can stay in full time work the entire time you do a modular course which can offset all your living expenses and contribute towards the cost of funding training. I am not saying it is a right or wrong way to do things but that is a fact..... I am amazed at how you banish the concept of "opportunity cost" to the dustbin after it has been a cornerstone of economic theory put in place by much more intelligent people that you or I.

Geeez some things I read on these forums are simply nuts!

GSB

P.S. Am I right in thinking OAT are charging you over a £100 for the honor of under going selection for this scheme??

AlexL

20th Jun 2006, 08:09

This is all completely wrong.
First thing the 15000 for "Loss of earnings" is your own problem if you want to do integrated so that does not count at all.

And do you know what a sponsorship is????? The Airline pays the 65000 training costs. Read up on it before you start commenting. The costs are then covered by the airline by the reduced salary. And the interest rate is like 2-4% so 22500? I dont think so.

Oh and I think someone said you can get in without a Maths A level. TOTALLY UNTRUE. You have to show and verify that you have a maths a level or equivilant.

I hope your maths and grasp of economics improves before you embark on a flying career.
2-4% interest? Try 2-4% ABOVE BASE which makes about 6.5 to 8.5% at todays rates. A 100 grand loan paid over 5 years would incur 17400 interest at 6.5% and 23,100 at 8.5%
I've completed an entire modular course including Full Motion 737 MCC for the same amount as that interest! And in less time than an integrated course, and without giving up my day job.

Oxeagle

20th Jun 2006, 08:22

Something I can't seem to be able to figure out is if TCA pays all of the training costs, and then the cadet pays it back over a period of time via a reduced wage, or whether the student pays all of the training costs and is offered a lower wage due to the guarantee of employment at the end of it? :confused: Anyone care to enlighten me?

Groundloop

20th Jun 2006, 09:04

The Bank pays the training costs through the loan the student takes out.

Then either TCA pays the loan off (via a reduction in salary) over the seven years or, if they don't have vacancies when the student graduates, the student pays the loan off (Gulp!)!

Re-Heat

20th Jun 2006, 09:17

I hope your grip on your own finances is better than your grip on basic economics! How can you say loss of earnings doesn't count when it comes to the integrated vs modular debate
Grass Strip Basher - because although that is an economic cost, it is integrated into the interest rate decision that you use to discount your cashflows, so to work out what it costs you in cash terms, you input your cashflows and discount them back at the interest rate that takes the opportunity cost for you into account. (P.S. I also hold an economics degree).

For the layman - what I mean is that how you value the future earnings and present costs in cash terms is how you make a decision, no based upon "potential" earnings and costs.

Your cost of integrated vs modular is as follows (modular column 1, integrated column 2 - indicative only):

Year 1 -40,000 -75,000
Year 2 -10,000 -10,000
Year 4 _____0 _21,000
Year 3 15,000 23,000
Year 5 17,000 25,000

etc etc
Then discount each figure back by x% per year, and that will account for lost earnings as well through the rate you use. Lost earnings are accounted for as the future earnings are worth less when discounted back to the present day value when you make the investment decision.

Can you afford to live is another question...!

scruggs

20th Jun 2006, 09:54

You've got to remember that for some people, this isn't that big a financial commitment. A mate of mine went in to debt for 175K at 22 years of age, for a mortgage on a restaurant (part bank loan, part re-financing house etc...) If it fails, he's in DEEP sh:mad:t. But he’s had no parental help etc – its all off his own back.

I've got another mate who is actually applying for this TCA scheme this year, and his parents are financing the lot (no bank loan needed and they don’t want repaying). Assuming he gets a place that is.

Not everyone struggles to find the financing, repay the loans and survive on a reduced salary - gits! :)

sicky

20th Jun 2006, 10:43

Oh and I think someone said you can get in without a Maths A level. TOTALLY UNTRUE. You have to show and verify that you have a maths a level or equivilant.

I think i said that, but i meant you don't need one for integrated courses, but it seems you do for this one.

This scheme seems very similar to the CTC scheme, and i did read they "refund" the training costs or something along those lines.

Looking at the figures though, it is enough to make you cringe.

Superpilot

20th Jun 2006, 12:02

These schemes have become a joke designed for the young, inexperienced (with life and money) and gullible types. Anybody with 3-4 years of real life working experience knows how hard it is to save, pay rent/mortgage etc and for this reason will not be interested. You youngun's, if you value the next 10 years of your life then don't fall for this rubbish. It's a life of debt and misery.

OAT could just as well source more of their APP graduates to TCA, so why this scheme? I'll tell you why, because it allows the airlines to stipulate a requirement for self risk takers who the airline can use as virtual slaves. Remember the contract states you only get the £1,000 loan repayment for as long as you stay with Excel, and that's 7 years!

I used to like OAT, heck I'm still studying ATPL long distance with them! but I can now see very clearly how they are colluding with some airlines to turn this industry in to something else.

Millions of schools out there teach just as well if not better than OAT. But I guess the airlines like OAT because they can provide the "right" kind of candidate.

Frank Furillo

20th Jun 2006, 12:56

Why is it that everytime Oxford, CTC etc gets mentioned I am reminded of the old 'Not the nine o'clock news' sketch about 'Thats Life'.
Quote" I think the BBC is just great and would happily sell my house and home for the service the BBC provide". I am sure some older Ppruners, like me, will remember this.

bigdaviet

20th Jun 2006, 13:22

i dont think anyone will deny that this is one of the less attractive schemes. at least at Jerez you have your accommodation included in the cost!

i'm still applying though, i reckon that i can just about cover the costs. I'm guessing that stage two of the selection process is after the initial application form on the web?

this two day selection also requires us to pay for a night's accommodation? now that is really stingy!

anyway, thats all of the moaning from me!

does anyone have any info on how the selection process works exactly at oxford? or perhaps provide a link to an old thread?

Donandar

20th Jun 2006, 14:09

I don't think you're bonded to TCA for 7 years - and I think you may possibly get a type rating thrown in that at no extra cost. Way I see it is if you're not bonded then surely make use of the £1k tax free a month, get some bigger repayments made on the loan over a shorter amount of time, and when you've built some hours over a year or two - apply to another airline and get a better salary. You'd be a winner that way and you'd already have less restraint from the loan compared with standard APPFO students. You'd also have thew ability to pay more per month on a lower amount!

Pilot Pete

20th Jun 2006, 21:06

This isnt a integrated vs modular debate. We are talking about the costs of the sponsorship AFTER youve decided that you can and do want to do integrated.

No, this thread is titled 'New Sponsorship (ish) scheme OAT', not 'Once you have decided upon going integrated discuss the costs of sponsorship.' I see no problem with pointing out the true value (or not) of this scheme compared to any other scheme, or other method of getting to the same result that this scheme provides (potentially), ie a frozen ATPL, albeit with the 'possibility' of a job at the end of it. I see no mention of a type rating and or who pays for it, either directly or through 'self funded' reduction in salary etc. Don't try to stiffle debate about the merits of this scheme or not, which some people may find enlightening, or at least worth considering.

PP

Re-Heat

20th Jun 2006, 21:07

Base is 4.5% in the UK.
Base is 2.25% - 2.5% in Euroland if you are borrowing from BBVA for Jerez (but remember currency risk is greater as a result to you).

Just being aware of what the costs are is all that we need here - to much of a fixation on the end goal blinds the judgement in both the integrated and modular routes.

Just bear in mind here that you won't be sitting about waiting for a job if you work hard - to enable earning quicker to repay your debt. Bear in mind he type rating point below - no answers from the provider have been given on that, so careful what you are getting into...

If you get to the level of stifling debate, then you either have an agenda, or are fixated - similar to the treatment some get if they ask a reasonable question on the military aircrew forum on joining the RAF. Don't let that happen here at your peril...

squawkident.

20th Jun 2006, 22:10

Just wondering, but how does the TCA scheme compare with CTC EZY.

It seems very similar in so far as the 7 year bond but they do offer conditional emplyment whereas (as far as im aware) CTC only cover for half the bond.

Any thoughts please??

EK4457

21st Jun 2006, 00:28

Posted by Pilot Pete
Don't try to stiffle debate about the merits of this scheme or not, which some people may find enlightening, or at least worth considering.

Totally agree.
As pointed out earlier, most of the applicants to this scheme will be young and vastly inexperienced with these sums of money. I've been earning much more than the 'Cadet' salary for years now and there is never much left in the bank come the month's end (if any at all). And I buy the supermarket's own brand.
To a lot of these whipper-snappers, the loan is just a number. It'll sort itself out once I've got a job. How do I know this? Because that was me at uni. It took me 4 years of hard graft to pay that back, and it was a fraction of the amounts mentioned here.
Surely trying to prevent discussion of the financial aspects is to deny those who may not know the whole story from making a balanced decision.
It also shows that you don't have an answer to the very valid questions being asked and uncomfortable facts stated. Like these:
Fact: Base rate is 4.5% (ish). The interest payable really is that scary. (Note- you get to learn all about the base rate when you get a mortgage. Although that will not be for another 7 years for those selected)
Fact: Lost earnings is a factor which needs consideration. This is what made me go modular.
Q: No one has mentioned type rating of 20k. Who pays for that? (sombody suggested TCX might give it away. Arf!)
Q: Why does the candidate take out the loan AND recieve the 'benefit' of a reduced salary? Surely it's one or the other?
Fact: TCX FO salary: 31k rising to 37k after 3 years. Cadet salary: 20k probably rising at a similar rate (a generous assumption).
Q: You earn at least 11k per year less than standard FO salary for 7 years. Thats 77k. But hang on, my loan was only for 64k. Can I have my money back?
I could go on but I'm getting bored. My point is that it aint a great deal. And trying to prevent people from discussing it is not what this organ is about.
EK

femaleWannabe

21st Jun 2006, 07:06

Not sure if anyone has come across this yet? http://www.thomascookjobs.co.uk/USER/airline/pilot_salarie.htm

Gives a clear table of salaries including the cadet one. So if anyone can be bothered, you can work out exactly what you lose out on as a cadet against the size of the loan.

Donandar

21st Jun 2006, 07:51

To quote from the Oxford Forums...

"..on this scheme your repayment is taken before you've been taxed whereas on the standard HSBC loan you make the repayment out of your post tax pay. therefore, the total cost of retraining you will actually LOSE from your salary every month will be £64,000 (total cost of training) x 0.6 (to account for tax efficiency) = £38400. Which divided over 84 months (7 years) = £457 per month. Which is less than the normal HSBC loan would cost over 11 years."

And also some info given by OATs MD...

Repayment of a loan from Gross salary compared to repayment of a loan from net salary is SIGNIFICANT by the rate of tax and NI that you pay on your salary.

At the lower rate of tax + NI:

To repay £1k from net earnings will cost you approximately £1,330 of your gross salary
To repay £1k from gross salary will cost you £1,000 of your gross salary

You can work out the multiples of savings @ £330 for yourself.

Yes you get a pre-training job offer with a great airline.

TCA fund the Type Rating.

You get to fly a B757 upon graduation.

You gain access to a prferred HSBC loan.

As much as we could argue all day over this and find better and cheaper ways to get to that RHS - you've to understand that it works out cheaper than being a self-sponsired student at Oxford. Most are going to take out the loan, so the additional benefits mean that they're one step ahead in repaying the loan quicker, in less time, and bagging more net pay at the end of it. For the majority of the years it's worth it - then you'll be laughing when you get remunerated for the experience gained whilst you stayed on the Cadet salary. I don't think you could lose out either way whether you did this scheme or you didnt!

Pilot Pete

21st Jun 2006, 08:11

Yes you get a pre-training job offer with a great airline.
TCA fund the Type Rating.
You get to fly a B757 upon graduation.
You gain access to a prferred HSBC loan.[/B][/I]

So, you get a pre-training job offer? Well, you get a job offer which states that IF they have a vacancy when you qualify then you MAY get a job offer. IF however something changes the economical/ business position of Thomas Cook UK then we reserve the right to NOT employ you.

I have nothing against TCUK, I have worked for them and they are a fine bunch with high standards, BUT their German (parent company) management didn't miss a trick after 9/11 and decided to put in a contract MD to "cut to the bone" with regards to cost (and I quote) "save the airline", which transpired to be a very convenient excuse to try to lower salaries (BALPA fought that one off), lay off hundreds of cabin crew and backroom staff and attempt to demote 55 captains and get rid of 45 F/Os. I was one of them who got laid off. So be VERY careful believing that a 'conditional' job offer means you are 'guaranteed' employment at the end of this scheme, it does not. It means they want their cake and they want to eat it, with you taking all the risk and paying out of your own pocket.

So, TCUK fund the type rating do they? If you start on a REDUCED salary, who do you consider to be paying for the type rating? I know who I consider it to be and it is not the employer..................

You get to fly a 757 on graduation. Great carrot, appealing to the 'boy' in us all. A fine aeroplane, but keep EMOTION out of serious financial decisions.;)

And you gain access to a preferred HSBC loan? The carrots just keep getting bigger! Where do I sign?:)

I am not trying to bellitle anything. What I am trying to do is pass on the experience of several years in the industry, having worked for the company mentioned, flown the aircraft 'dangled' and having been through the incredibly stressful situation of thinking I was going to lose it all post 9/11 when there were NO OTHER JOBS going flying aeroplanes in the UK. BE VERY CAREFUL committing yourself to so much debt and relying on a piloting job as your only way of repaying it. This industry is so cyclical that IF there is a downturn (sorry, WHEN the next downturn occurs), you had better hope that you don't have huge debts and you have some other form of earning at least what your piloting salary was.......7 years in this industry is plenty to have experienced a downturn and remember, when one comes it affects ALL the employers, not just your current one.

Eyes open, emotion off and brain engaged to 'max sense' before you sign on the dotted line, that's all I preach.

As ever though, if you go for it I wish you good luck.

PP

Edited to add this final jaw dropping quote I don't think you could lose out either way whether you did this scheme or you didnt! You what? I despair of anyone joining this industry who believes that! For God's sake start seeing through the marketing tripe that is being pedalled and listen to those who give a balanced opinion regarding the economics of this decision as well as those with some experience of how airlines operate. This scheme is stacked in favour of them, not you. You are getting NOTHING from them. They are getting you by the short and curlies, have you paying for the training, the type rating and screwing you over for 7 years too! If you can accept that then fine, sign up, but stop trying to make out what a great deal it is for evryone!

Flies-like-a-chicken

21st Jun 2006, 08:38

After being a student for the last 3 years I'm used to living in squalor. If such a scheme gets me a job then that's great, if not then the bailiffs can't take what I don't have! Stop worrying about money and let’s go back to the good old communist days! Shotgun on the Vodka by the way!

femaleWannabe

21st Jun 2006, 08:45

Whether it gives you a better chance (guaranteed??!!) of getting a job or not - I'd rather save my £80k+, avoid the 7 years on cadet salary, go modular and take my chances of getting a job! At least then if I don't get one, I only have about £20k to pay back and can do that off my current salary without having to starve or remortgage the flat :} I don't understand why anyone would want to go for this scheme, but good luck to anyone who tries.

AlexL

21st Jun 2006, 08:47

My apologies there, I read it wrong. This isnt about "economics" lmao. Its just something I read wrong :) All the same you're wrong too. Base is 2% anyway so we are talking 4%-6%

Go do your homework

Bank of England Base rate is 4.5%

Current Variable rate mortgage 'best buys' are around 6.5% you will not find a loan cheaper than this.

Dave Martin

21st Jun 2006, 08:57

Pilot Pete,

With all due respect, everyone is aware the offer is conditional. No airline in its right mind will make an absolute offer and as OAT made clear last year, in the unlikely event that TCX goes tits up and no job is on offer then you will join the rest of the OAT pilot pool. I would guess since you have already proven yourself to be in the upper 5% of all OAT candidates just to get on the TCX scheme you would then be very well situated to get a seat on any of the other airlines that OAT supplies pilots for. For some people this may even be preferable! A conditional job offer is still better than no offer at all, which is what 99.9% of all other modular and integrated students have.

In the same discussions last year I said the same thing. We can poo-poo the scheme all we like, but for a great many people funding for even a modular course is just not possible. For others the age limits of standard schemes also cut them out. Here is an offer that provides a way around both those those problems.

The cadet salary is certainly modest, but shows quite clear progression and after 3 years is respectable. In another 4 years and on £33.5K your entire training loan is paid off. I'm sure it would be possible to cut a year or two off that with a more frugal lifestyle.

Donandar

21st Jun 2006, 09:25

From what I understand you're not bonded for seven years - it's upto you if you make use of the repayments. RE: Type rating - it seems like the deductions from gross salary go only towards repayment of the loan and no more is taken away from you to fund a TR.

I think the best thing in all of this is wait until last years TCX chaps graduate and get them to write down the ACTUAL figures so we can all see exactly what is the correct answer. I see what you're saying, but they wouldn't run these schemes if the APP course was better financially...

Pilot Pete

21st Jun 2006, 09:53

Dave

It's not TCUK going t*ts up that should be the main concern, it's the likelyhood of an economic/ aviation downturn during your 7 years, which IMHO is much more likely.

Look at the aviation market today. It is bouyant, probably more bouyant than it has been for arguably 10-15 years. It's a great time to be training, for sure, as with the projected pilot requirements for virtually all the airlines are huge over the coming years.

But it has been like this forever and a day, boom and bust. My point is that in 7 years time you could be regretting the huge debt and no job due to a massive downturn. Just be warned and make sure that any choice you make is in the fullness of the light of day and not on some whim or because there is a 757 dangling at the end of it or some other such marketting statement.

PP

Donadar

You are falling for the marketting too. You may not pay up front for the type, but they get their money back through the reduced salary, which in my mind means YOU PAY. Look at the REAL costs to you as an individual compared to what else is out there, not just because they SAY they are paying for the type!!

OK, so you are not bonded, but if you go elsewhere you end up paying for the loan from net salary, so I can't believe that they haven't done their sums to ensure that every man and his dog don't go elsewhere after year 2 because they can be better off! Prove me wrong.

Mooney12

21st Jun 2006, 10:16

"OK, so you are not bonded, but if you go elsewhere you end up paying for the loan from net salary, so I can't believe that they haven't done their sums to ensure that every man and his dog don't go elsewhere after year 2 because they can be better off! Prove me wrong."

A lot of CTC Ezy cadets have left Ezy after 6months - 1 year and gone BA DEP.....They are definately better off!!

mad_jock

21st Jun 2006, 10:23

Its another marketing/tax fiddle.

You don't get anthing for nothing in aviation.

There have been plenty of these schemes over the years and the only thing which is pretty constant is that the student doesn't get anything for nothing and in some cases gets sold into bonded labour for a significant length of time.

If anything goes wrong with your training / thompson change there mind. You end up with a crippling loan to pay off.

femalewannabie has completely the right idea it just shows how the marketing can be used to sell excatly the same product with a bit of spin on it.

Usually they way they say it works is ( And this is a general comment nothing to do with the above course its used in quite a few industrys)

The plus point that they will tell you about paying it back is that the money will be paid back by giving you a reduced salary so you won't pay NI or tax on the money repayed. Basically money will get shifted around from a loan to yourself which will be payed to the company who is sponsering you. They will pay the company training you, of course claiming back vat and offseting the costs against corporation tax so in real terms it will actually cost them 50% of what we would pay. You of course won't get to see a penny of this money. Then they will pay you a reduced salary thus saving again on employers NI contributions. So if say your training was a 60k loan you would have at least another 20k on top of that in interest over 10 years. The company would have actually got you trained up for about 20k and say another 20k(or less) for a type rating plus all the other bits and bobs.

So the bank gets 20k in interest. The training company get there usual profit plus what ever they make on the increase in demand for charging for assment days. And the company sponsoring gets 20k profit. The cunning way for the company is to actually is to find a reason for not giving you a job at the end before any of the type rating stuff. 15 people going for this with only 50% making the course could make you quarter of a million in the space of 18 months for no capitial outlay.

Donandar

21st Jun 2006, 10:35

OK, so you are not bonded, but if you go elsewhere you end up paying for the loan from net salary, so I can't believe that they haven't done their sums to ensure that every man and his dog don't go elsewhere

Agreed if you went elsewhere you'd be paying from your net salary after tax and NI - but then again, you'd be on a F/O salary and in a much better financial position to do this? After all it's what you chaps have been banging on about through most of this thread - that you're better off financially...

That's the general jist of what people are saying - you'd be better off not going this route. I think one thing you have to do is compare it with the APPFO course and NOT others on the market - remember they're not saying it's a new course of training - it's the APPFO with more benefits than your normal self-sponsored chap has on APPFO. Assuming you both take a loan out - one takes it out for £60k and the other for £50k - one has a conditional offer, the other doesn't. When it comes to paying it off, the chap who got TCA is laughing because as suggested - move to another airline as a DEP with experience and your net income should well cover the monthly repayments and you're earning more. Then again, if you disagree with the last statement, you're shooting yourself in the foot saying you're worse off.... :ok:

And just for the record, I won't be applying.

Pilot Pete

21st Jun 2006, 10:38

A lot of CTC Ezy cadets have left Ezy after 6months - 1 year and gone BA DEP.....They are definately better off!!

A couple of questions spring to mind.

1. How long are (were) the CTC Ezy cadets 'tied in' on a reduced salary/ gross salary loan repayment period at easy?

2. Are they still offering the scheme unaltered if loads leave?

I cannot believe that easy will be happy with this 'ideal' scheme if it not having the desired effect of locking pilots in for a number of years cheap labour.

If you have found a fatal flaw in the system, then great, but it still doesn't get away from the fact that if you train modular, save a fortune and apply for direct entry TCUK, Easy or whoever, you will still be better off 7 years later. The market is improving considerably this year and next year should be bumper. If things hold together and everyone keeps expanding into 2008, then the newly qualified frozen ATPL holder should have comparatively little problem getting a job. It's all a gamble, whichever route you choose, but becoming a professional pilot usually involves NOT being a risk taker.;)

PP

Groundloop

21st Jun 2006, 11:05

If anything goes wrong with your training / thompson change there mind. Usually they way they say it works is ( And this is a general comment nothing to do with the above course its used in quite a few industrys)
It's Thomson without a "p", but I thought this thread was about Thomas Cook!
Basically money will get shifted around from a loan to yourself which will be payed to the company who is sponsering you. They will pay the company training you, of course claiming back vat and offseting the costs against corporation tax so in real terms it will actually cost them 50% of what we would pay. You of course won't get to see a penny of this money...
...So the bank gets 20k in interest. The training company get there usual profit plus what ever they make on the increase in demand for charging for assment days. And the company sponsoring gets 20k profit.

This look's utter rubbish to me. The bank gives you the money which you pay to OAT. There is no way the money will end up with TCX.

Mooney12

21st Jun 2006, 11:05

The usual 7 years low-scale cadet pay.....But it's not a bad deal really...£23,500 basic or so and flying pay on top. Then £1000pcm paid off to HSBC every month....

Without a bond etc... off to BA after minimal hours = £43k basic + £12k or so flight pay...$$$$ not bad at all!

Scheme is still the same as before, but it's not exactly easy to get into BA DEP and they have stopped recruitment for the moment. Once retirement age increases in October the problem will probably stop.

easyflyer

21st Jun 2006, 11:57

Can anyone help with a comparison of this scheme vs. the BA SSP scheme...

My understanding was that if you self-funded at OAT, got into BA thru SSP, you'd start at BA on a reduced 'cadet' salary, as well as have your training debt to repay out of your net 'cadet' earnings - is this correct? And if so, aren't you essentially self-funding a Type Rating (albeit with a BA job offer)?

Was wondering what the net take-home comparison would be (incl. training debt repayments).

mad_jock

21st Jun 2006, 12:47

The post wasn't meant to be on the actual scheme or the company.

Its was a general comment on the way the schemes work.

The scheme has been used for years by all sorts of industrys to limit their corporation tax exposure. There are tonnes of other ones as well like if they are operating out of a high corprate tax region all the training will be done in a low corprate tax country. This training of course will be done at an exceptionally high cost. But it will seen as a cost and so go against profits.
Mean while in the low tax country it will be declared as profit and the tax payed.
The company as a whole hasn't lost any money as such but has payed less tax on the amount of profit.

The money is just a tool for the accountants books, the person taking out the loan won't have a clue who the money is being payed to, it will never be in thier bank account. It will all have been in the paper work which you will have pre signed with some boxes not filled out or even on an additional sheet which you will never see.

The company has to pay the training cost otherwise it would be deemed as a benefit in kind and you would be taxed on it.

Either way the whole crux of the issue is that you won't get anything for nothing. You will be paying 2-3 times as much as a modular student. Signed up to x number of years.

And it really doesn't matter what job you get at the end of it. The modular student who has gone 15k loan or no loan at all to FI for a year on 12k to TP FO for 3 years on 25k to TP captain or Jet FO on 40K a year will still be far better off than a direct entry bonded for 7 years 757 FO. And they will have had alot more fun as well.

The people who do apply for this scheme and do get the nod are the people type that the industry wants. It wouldn't matter if they had been modular trained or intergrated. They have the qualities required. Being selected for a scheme like this should give you even more confidence to go modular and save yourself the cost of a house by doing so.

Lucifer

21st Jun 2006, 18:08

I hope you aren't a tax accountant as that is convoluted and utterly rubbish.

And they will have had alot more fun as well.
That's your opinion.

The people who do apply for this scheme and do get the nod are the people type that the industry wants. It wouldn't matter if they had been modular trained or intergrated. They have the qualities required. Being selected for a scheme like this should give you even more confidence to go modular and save yourself the cost of a house by doing so.
A very pertinent comment - passing this selection will prove you have what it takes to get into the airline.

femaleWannabe

21st Jun 2006, 20:21

So what's this all about then? http://www.thomascookjobs.co.uk/USER/airline/pilot_salarie.htm :confused: :confused: :confused: It's all a bit confusing.....

mad_jock

21st Jun 2006, 21:25

No don't worry not a tax person just an ex-contractor.

Most of the type ratings which are bonded are run on the same lines.

You take out a loan with a bank, you never see the money and the company pay's it off over the time. If you leave the company stops paying. It just depends on your deal if you have a reduced salary for this period or the company pays the lot.

EK4457

22nd Jun 2006, 00:47

X3K5, how ironic that by trying to clear things up and state facts, you end up confusing the situation even more.
First Year
£33,055
Second Year
£35,367
Fourth Year
£39,611
Bolleux (excuse my french). So 1st year cadet earns the same as 1st year FO full pay? Err, no.
I think you may find that the salaries quoted above are around 12k too high. You say that you got the info from the OAT forum? Methinks that they may be adding the £1000 pcm loan payments to the cadet salary to arrive at these fanciful figures. OAT in their true colours.
I've been on their forum a few times before and, quite frankly, it's scary what gets posted as fact on there (most of the time by OAT staff).
So some people are quite mistaken if they think its around £20K.
No, you are quite mistaken. It is around 20k (£20,843 according to TCX's own site).
Just look at the figures that femalewannabee posted the link to. Interesting that the difference between Cadet salary and FO salary is 13k every year. But only 12k gets paid to your loan.
Or, to illustrate the same point in a different light:
13k x 7 years = 91k lost income compared to an FO after 7 years.
Subtract training costs of 65k = 26k lost out. Not even a type rating of 20k (less for the A320) can account for this black hole.
That I believe is different to the OAT/TCA scheme.
Oh, really? So they have a second payscale which is also called 'Cadet Salary' which also runs for seven years, but pays nearly 60% more.
But, of course, they don't advertise this on their site. It makes sense to keep this a secret and only advertise the payscale which resembles that of a paper round.
Behave yourself.
I think that after all of this discussion, we can fairly safely say this:
The benefit of this scheme to the trainee is that they get a good chance of going straight into the RHS of a jet. However, for this you do actually pay more.
The main benaficiary of this is the airline who gets a cadet who costs much less than a standard FO (even with loan payments taken into account) for seven years. During this time, there is the added benefit of them not banging on about command positions and absolutely no risk to TCX whatsoever.
The other obvious winner is OAT. They get X candidates on an APP course and a good relationship with TCX, not to mention all of those 200 quids for selection. Again, no risk whatsoever.
All of the above is fine, except the way it is marketed. For the more experienced, we can see this scheme for what it is. However, when the details include spin such as:
Refund of your APP FO training and associated costs through employment with TCA
graduates will achieve significant financial benefit compared to the more usual situation of repaying these training costs themselves out of a normal First Officer net salary.

TCA will repay the graduate's actual OAT training and CAA costs
you can see that they are trying to make it look like somthing it isn't. This is likely to appeal to the younger wannabees who are at the 'I just want to be a pilot and don't care how much it costs' stage.
It just isn't a good financial move. And TCX/OAT are either fibbers or have dodgy calculators.
EK

femaleWannabe

22nd Jun 2006, 06:53

Believe it or not, those ARE the salaries, not 20K.

But are those the salaries INCLUDING the repayments?? I refuse to believe they would pay normal FO rates AND give you an extra £1000 per month...

Edited to add: last time I checked, CTC wings cadet graduates ended up on the thomas cook "cadet" payscale... from what I know, CTC have a similar £60k bank loan scheme, tied to airline for 7 years, given £1k a month to pay off loan. So I really cannot see why this oxford scheme would be a great deal different?

Jenson Button

22nd Jun 2006, 08:07

X3K5, Do you honestly think that airline management (who include quite a few accountants and managers familiar with marketing spin) are that "honest" when it comes to trying to sell something, that on the face of it looks pretty damn great but in reality is entirely ropey ??

When you go and book your holiday to the Canaries, you have to pay for x, y, z and a whole host of other things, because ITC's are pretty sh:mad: it hot when it comes to marketing a package holiday for peanuts and then charge gold plated prices for all the hidden extras that initially were not included in the holiday price.

Can it be that much different "selling" this OAT/TCA APP course to the potential Jet RHS wannabe ?

"EK you are being quite immature in this case. You are saying that they would write false values in an official business plan? Well you should know that they cannot do that for legal reasons." - False, isn't quite the word I would use for this setup. It is marketing spin; OAT have used such vague comments for years in order to get customers through the door. AND take a look at the schemes that Ryanair, Easy and Vueling are utilising at the very moment - Its the pilot who is worse off, not the airline or training provider.

For those not familiar with the way the industry has gone over the last few years, Pilots are now seen as a cash cow.

femalewannabe, I fully agree with you. I cannot think why TCA would pay low hour fresh wannabe's straight from school the same as an experienced F/O in the RHS as their website clearly shows.

For those seriously looking at this scheme, suggest take the contract to a friendly lawyer to read through the T&Cs.

Jenson

ps. Didn't Virgin run a similar scheme with Cabair about ten years ago. But then it cost about £45k - not bad at todays prices ?

Donandar

22nd Jun 2006, 09:51

femaleWannabee

I'm positive they won't give you an extra £1000 a month of top of that (that WOULD be silly...) - what they do is give you £1000 of your monthly wage, tax-free. The remainder of your earnings in your monthly paycheque I would assume is taxed as normal.

If those are the salaries written in the business plan, I wouldn't argue with them. Yes we all know there are hidden T&Cs and stuff, but if you're going to be a pessimist all your life, I pity you on what you do with that whole chunk of time given to you.

Fact is I'd be happy to do it, but for me it's not about the money or how much I'm spending. It's what I do with my life outside of work that matters. You can be a naysayer or a pro-Oxford person, but at the end of the day if you sit at home, thinking through ways in which it can't be true, ways in which its cleverly marketed and ways in which you can find a reason to inform those who have an apparent lack of maturity compared to your oh-so-mature selves, I really do wonder! The same goes for those who praise the scheme - you're just as bad - either get on with it, or don't.

:}

femaleWannabe

22nd Jun 2006, 11:48

Ok, I understand it a bit better now having read a thread on the oxford forum. Assuming what X3k5 posted is correct, £33,055 in year one before tax and NI. Then the loan repayment is taken out before tax at £1000 per month. So that leaves you with £21055 before tax in the first year. You are not tied to the airline but you still have the loan to pay off if you leave. for those who can't be bothered working it out, £1000 a month for 7 years is £84000. so it's a better deal than having to pay the loan from your net salary, but in my opinion, still very expensive. Someone on this scheme could be starting in year one with the airline beside an ex modular student (earning the same £33,055) who only has £20k to pay off instead of £84k..... I know that kind of situation would really piss me off!

EK4457

22nd Jun 2006, 12:31

I think this whole issue of how much the Cadet salary costs will be cleared up very soon at Stage 2 when they spill the beans. It will just cost you £200 to find out :eek:
You are saying that they would write false values in an official business plan? Well you should know that they cannot do that for legal reasons.
1) False values? No. The values are not false. They have taken your salary and added the loan payments that they make on your behalf. They have just played with figures, somthing which accountants are paid to do (I worked as an auditor for one of the 'big 4' and saw this every day).
2)An official business plan? I thought you said it was from the OAT froum? Is this a normal place to publish legal documents? No, it will be subject to the usual disclaimers on such forums and, as such, aint worth the cyberspace it's written on.
Believe it or not, those ARE the salaries, not 20K.
This sort of comment proves my point. It quite simply shows your naivety. How much do you think pilots earn? Without going around in circles, it is the salary. If you extrapolate your 'official figures', you will get a cadet on 45k by the 7th year. Plus the 12k pa loan payments, makes the net benefit to the candidate of around 57k pa. You need to be a FO for 3 years and then an SFO for 15 years, on full pay, to earn the equivalent. It is just not realistic.

EK you are being quite immature in this case.
No my friend, I just have a healthy knack of asking quetions and trying to see the facts as they are. And a calculator that works properly.;)
Donandar, your post so far is the most worrying.
but for me it's not about the money or how much I'm spending.
Thats the attitude! I'll bet you'll think the same way after 7 years in a shared rented flat. You are just the person they are after.
if you sit at home, thinking through ways in which it can't be true, ways in which its cleverly marketed and ways in which you can find a reason to inform those who have an apparent lack of maturity compared to your oh-so-mature selves, I really do wonder!
Why do you wonder? There are already a few people on the forum who are thinking of applying and are now asking questions. And the long term effect of people not applying to these schemes due to the dodgy economics may, just may, be a better deal for future schemes (doesn't apply to me though, I'm already well into a modular course :ok: )
The same goes for those who praise the scheme - you're just as bad - either get on with it, or don't.
Err, so were not aloud to discuss the scheme? Just what is the purpose of this forum? And if you don't want to hear about it, what are you doing here? Does the fact that you are posting mean your comment is aimed at yourself? :confused:
May I suggest that when you do go to OAT for selection, you ask questions. And lots of them.
Don't forget your £200 cheque either.
EK

scroggs

22nd Jun 2006, 12:53

This scheme is very similar to the CTC one, at least in the financial aspects. For all of you who are considering it, be absolutely certain of one thing: the airline and the school are promoting it because it is financially attractive for them. If they can package it so it appears not to hurt you too much, then they'll get a sufficient number of applicants to achieve the savings they're after. Inevitably, these schemes are designed to appeal to the younger, or more financially-naive wannabe. The kind of person who would buy a TV from Comet/Dixons/Currys etc. at 29.8% interest because they only see the monthly payments, not the total cost.

I have no doubt that the training you will get will be excellent, and, if you are lucky enough to find that a job is still available when you graduate (not guaranteed), you will be one of the very few who starts their working life as an airline pilot on a large jet. However, you will be among the worst-paid jet pilots on the planet, and the financial dead-weight you have signed up to will make it very difficult to move to a better-paid job - because, as soon as you do, the loan will have to be paid from net income, not gross. That will be expensive!

If you are considering this, or any similar, scheme, have someone who is financially literate look over it and explain to you exactly how it works. Compare it with the alternatives, and don't forget to consider what happens if you fail the course or if the jobs aren't available once you graduate. Go in with your eyes open.

Scroggs

captainbirdseye

22nd Jun 2006, 12:56

So what is the concensus now amongst wannabes? Are schemes like this OAT offering and other similar ones on the market (CTC wings) loosing their benefit therefore their value?

My thoughts are 2 -3 years ago £84K debt and reduced salary with the prospect of job offer was a pain, but one of the best (only) ways of getting a very hard to come by job (Jet F/O).

Are the tables now turning in favour of the entirely self "sponsored" as the market is more buoyant? And the all important time to first job is appears (my opinion only) to be reducing for low hours fATPLs? Thus rendering the need for the prospective job offer given by these schemes obselete?

Opinions? esp from the old hands such as Scroggs and WWW.

CBE

- was going to start a new thread (Scroggs) but thought it fits in quite nicely here.

easyflyer

22nd Jun 2006, 13:04

Scroggs,

Isn't the important metric to understand what most new jet pilots are paid, less training costs/interest?

i.e. a typical self sponsored integrated student with debt to repay is going to be roughly as 'poorly' paid as the TC guys, all things being equal (e.g. BA's SSP 'cadet' salary less training debts / Thomsonfly's Second Officer salary less training debts). Does this not means it's a little unfair to describe these TC cadets as amongst the poorly paid jet drivers on the planet....?

Sagey

22nd Jun 2006, 13:16

This scheme seems more expensive to me than the CTC one - the training bond is more and it appears that you have to pay for your accomodation etc, which isn't true with CTC. Also CTC does have a guarantee - if you look at their website it says that if you fail to make the standards they will repay up to 30k of the bond (you are only liable for payments you have made over 30k) - ok it isn't all of it but if you are close to the full 60k you would already be close to finish training.

EK4457

22nd Jun 2006, 14:45

Easyflyer,
Does this not means it's a little unfair to describe these TC cadets as amongst the poorly paid jet drivers on the planet....?
These self sponsored airline schemes are the worst way to fund training. I got to the last 15 of the last Thomsonfly scheme for FTE. When I learnt the financial details (you pay for training AND get reduced salary) I decided not to take it even if I was offered a place (which I wasn't). Luckily I didn't have to pay for the selection process!
This TCX scheme is the worst of a bad bunch. OAT is the most expensive school. You don't get accomodation included. The salary paid is far less than FO salary (even with your £1000 added). So, yes. I think the comment is fair.
Are the tables now turning in favour of the entirely self "sponsored" as the market is more buoyant?
CBE - a very good question. I think that as far as comparing it to modalar goes, it is a no brainer.
I still have my job on fairly good money, now own a house (which has already gone up in value quite a bit and will be in the region of 10k when I finish my training) and doing my flying / exams at the same time. I should be in about 25k of debt when I finish. You could even subtract money made on the house from that too as none of the above are possible on Integrated (for me, anyway!).
However, if you compare this scheme to self sponsored Integrated, it is more open to interpretation.
I think the deciding factor is that they incourage (usually young) wannabees to opt for a route that they may not be able to afford.
For example, to get onto OAT APP, you only get 50k loan. Therefore you need another 14k for the rest of the training plus food/accom. In other words, you need around 30k in addition to your loan. People on the APP know this and are prepared to pay it.
However, the scheme hides this by offering you a bigger loan (as if it's a good thing!?) and some number fudging with your salary. The fact is that you still pay this 30k back after you have finished, plus the interest. They are praying on those who don't look forward to the next 7 years (in a financial sense). These people are usually young and want that jet job. I don't mean to be offensive to people who are young, but I've been there myself.
If you have 30k knocking around and don't mind peanuts for 7 years, then it may be for you. But then you could pay for the whole training modualr with the 30k and have no debt. Even if it took you 2 years to get a job (unlikely if you are good enough to pass the selection criteria in this climate) you are literelly tens of thousands of pounds better off.
Even if you think I'm talking a load of tripe, then think about this:
I don't know Scroggs personally, but from his posts I know he is a very experienced pilot with Virgin Atl. and knows his onions when it comes to this sort of thing. If he says something, listen very carefully.
EK

Superpilot

22nd Jun 2006, 15:36

Great response from EK4457. Similar situation to yourself here (with the house and all that) :cool:

Donandar

22nd Jun 2006, 15:38

I think in all of it most students who would take a loan to go to Oxford would still have to pay from their net salary - albeit over 11 years rather than 7. Apologies for my earlier rant over the expression of views, I did get rather carried away, probably because I myself, am not looking to do any form of pilot training for some years yet and am happy with my 'job' to bring in my income (you can't really call music a job!) and pay for my mortgage, bills, food etc.

It just would seem like a viable option for those who maybe want to get the loan repayed quicker (albeit on a cut down salary) who would then (over 7 years) have plenty of experience to move as a DEP to another airline and start on a much better salary consumerate with experience.

EK4457

22nd Jun 2006, 17:23

Hurrah!!
I think we have agreed. Well kind of.
I don't agree with the price comparison between Mod vs Int'd. You have to compare like for like, any extra costs you add to one, you need to add to the other to be fair. Especially when you consider that Integrated offers you far less hours to reach the same standard. You're more likely to need more hours.
Even if it is 25k difference, that is not the key factor. Its about level of debt owed to Mr HSBC when you get the little blue book. I'll owe (hopefully) less than 25k. You will owe 60k (at least). Plus a LOT more interest. AND I'm on full pay with house already bought.
The point I think we agree on is that, with this scheme, you get a very good chance of a job. But for this, you pay a lot of money. I don't want to get into the age old arguement of how much mod vs integrated costs. But it is a LOT.
You think it's worth it. I most certainly don't. As you get older (I'm only 27!!) you realise that, yes I still want to be a pilot more than anything else. And I am even more determined than ever. But there are also other things in life that are equally important. What do you do want once you are a TCX FO? Do you want a house? Do you want a holiday? Do you want a reliable car? I know that this is freaky, but if you want children (and I don't), most people want them by their early 30's. You will have only just paid off your loan and have none of the above (although I have no idea how old you actually are).
Your life will be one financial restriction for the next decade (don't start TCX untill 2008 plus 7 years goes all the way to 2015!).
All this to fly an obsolete aircraft to Palma.
Saying things like "This is marketing spin" is an assumption.
Nope. It's an opinion. Based on fact. Subtle difference, but fundamentally different. You are the only one making inaccurate posts.
EK

BitMoreRightRudder

22nd Jun 2006, 17:41

X3k5

Where on earth have you got the idea that you are harming your chances of airline employment by either not going for this scheme or going modular? The whole point of the counter-argument here is that this scheme is hellishly expensive, and arguably not worth the financial risk in the current rosy employment situation. This is simply a re-hash of the deal TCA have with CTC, only on closer inspection it appears as though it may actually work out even more expensive for the cadet ie - the living expenses. If anyone goes for this scheme, then the best of luck, but make sure you are happy with the finances that will apparently be explained at phase 2 of selection, as Oxford/TCA will no doubt be issuing rose-tinted specs to you all at the beginning of the day!

Be under no illusions, these schemes make money for the Training Organisation and save money for the airline while the cadet carrys a large financial burden throughout his/her training and onwards through the best part of their first decade of airline employment.

jetlagslag

22nd Jun 2006, 18:27

I cannot disagree with Ek4457s argument that yes, this scheme is very expensive, the bottom line is that integrated is more expensive than modular. The debates between the 2 go on, everyone has their valid opinions however they do not belong on this thread.

However, this scheme is for integrated, so its only fair to compare this to an integrated self sponsorship scheme. So, comparing this TCX scheme with say a self sponsored APP FO trainee, the benefits clearly are there.

Financially, well there is some debate over the pay, and im sure it will be a good deal lower than TCX FO pay. That said, 12k a year tax free with which to pay it off is a vast saving around the 30k mark. On top of this, the reduced salary may well mean a different tax bracket altogether, this we'll have to see. Okay, the 7 years maybe gives less freedom, but as far as im aware, that 1k a month is there to do whatever he/she wishes to do with it.

Obviously the pay is reduced, however i'd like to see how it pans out, with the c30k saving, compared to the APP FO with the extra interest payable by taking 11 years to pay.
The APP FO has been taxed on his salary each month before he can pay it back. I'll be pretty sure that the TCX cadet will be at least equally as financially well off as the APP FO guy who chooses to pay it off over 7 yrs, probably better off in fact than most airline FOs barring maybe a select few. After 7 ys, well - you're in the clear.

TCX i believe will pay for the TR. I certainly wouldnt pay for a 757TR, however very few pilots pay for their second TR, and on top of that, its not costing the cadet 20k to do the TR. If the TCX cadet left and still had to do say an A320 TR and fund it himself, they are no worse off than the APP FO guy. Incidentally, the 757 is a beautiful aircraft, wait and see.

There is no bond with TCX, therefore, if one so wishes, they may leave TCX for say BA DEP with experience and be financially better off elsewhere. If not, they stay the 7 yrs and make the maximum financial benefit from the scheme. After which point, the TCX FO is substantially better set up financially than the FO who's got 4 yrs of payments to go, with interest to suit.

Finally, and in my opinion the most salient point - The conditional job offer itself. Ok, there is a possibility that there are no vacancies. This is unlikely, but its still a possibility. If, as a wannabe, you think you can pour scorn on the TCX scheme, and pick and choose which shiny jet airline you want to work for fresh from your integrated course, you are very much mistaken. Try it, but on your head be it. The conditional job offer itself should certainly be sufficient bait to lure wannabes towards the scheme, whether there was financial gain or not.

I am not naive. I know TCX arent doing this out of the goodness of their heart, nor will OAT be, however, good business doesnt have to have only 1 winner.

For all those wanting to do an integrated course, there is (by tax alone) sizable financial benefit. How much will be determined by the base salary. But wannabes, listen, this is as sure a chance as you can get for your money of getting a job. You would be unwise to dismiss it.

For the record, I have no affilliation with OAT or TCX, I am very financially literate, and would be happy to answer questions regarding that aspect. As Scroggs has said, read the T&C's, dont be caught out, but I very much doubt that the contract would be there to screw you over. They will be making gains through this scheme as it is.

Regards.

easyflyer

23rd Jun 2006, 09:56

Jetlagslag,
Agree totally - the real comparison here is TC vs. APP FO. On what little information we have, the salary comparison is between net take home at TC, and an APP FO with job elsewhere post training/interest costs. On this basis, the TC scheme doesn't appear bad at all - and certainly not deserving of the 'lowest paid jet driver on the planet' accolade some detractors here would label it.

jetlagslag

23rd Jun 2006, 11:32

Absolutely, easyfler.

Again it cant be pressed home enough that this is a conditional jet job offer. The financial savings are clear, if not allowing the flexibility that another FO would have, but they are there nonetheless. Even if there were no financial gains - it would still be worth going for.

raviolis

23rd Jun 2006, 17:38

...as they probably retain my details since I asked for an information package some time ago, OAT have emailed me today to remind me of this fantastic opportunity.
With only 5 days to go, and the new scheme largely advertised, doesn't it look a bit like scraping the bottom of the barrel ?

The scheme per se is nothing new to me, looks quite similar to the CTC Wings. The selection fee is quite high tho (195 quid) and this last minute door-to-door advertising for rectruits sounds a bit like "we need more bodies for the selection. At 195 quid each the more we can get for stage 2 the better !"
Also the fact that there is no upper age limit is a bit unusual.

I'd like to apply, even just for the sake of it, see how I do with the selection. But the thought of throwing away another 200 quid, plus travelling and accomodation, doesn't really appeal to me.

Guess the best people to ask advice for this are the TCX Captains I see every day at work ? :O

MrHorgy

24th Jun 2006, 12:53

Someone mentioned using the website to compare the salary scales - well I have and it shows that in the first three years, cadet's get £12,708 LESS than their FO counterparts. After that for the next 4 years it is in the region of £15,000 pa. The total difference is... wait for it...

£99,945

How does 1/10th of a million pounds sound like to you? That's the salary difference.

On a different note, i've taken another route. I'm currently cabin crew, my roster reads LAS, POP, PUJ, CUN, SFB, LAS, you get the idea. I'm being paid well for seeing the world, accompanied by a bevy of pretty girls, some cool pilots, I get to sit in the cockpit for positioning sectors and wear the headset, and still train in the meantime. On top of that, rumours inside the company state they wish to "reward loyalty to the company with attractive pilot packages for internal applicants".

Sounds good to me :ok:

Horgy

jetlagslag

24th Jun 2006, 15:01

As has been stated by authority, the cadet salary scale on the website is not the one which the TCX intends to use.

99K is a lot of money, however consider the saving made merely by having 12k a yr tax free on top of your cadet salary (whatever that may be.). So the fact that you may be 12-15k gross underpaid, what goes into your bank is well over 12k more than the base salary pa.

The tax and NI savings are over 30k alone, not to mention the cadets will be in a different tax bracket due to their lower cadet salary (whilst still getting a tax free 12k bumper).

Oh, free type rating.... theres another 20k.

Wait, theres more! A conditional job offer! worth the weight of a 757 in gold to any airline wannabes.

Is there a bond with TCX? Nope... if you should feel you'd be financially or professionally better off elsewhere, away you go. Then you'd be responsible for clearing the balance of the training cost yourself, as per any other integrated-trained employee.

MrHorgy, I have been asked to weigh up the financial ups and downs of the package for several people, and assuming the Ts & Cs are about the same as say, an FO with TCX, its a financially beneficial deal. Remember, a good business idea can benefit both the proposer and the customer. And in this case, im sure it does. Obviously you are in a different position altogether, with seemingly a different route into the RHS of a shiney TCX jet, and I wish you all the best. The benefits of this scheme are most relevent when weighed up against an APPFO grad who didnt take part in this scheme.

As for OAT scraping the barrel? Well again, im sure it's happy getting people in for selections and making some cash out of it, its also benefiting those who are unaware of the scheme. I believe those who have passed OAT selection prior to the scheme, but who have not joined OAT for training yet recieved an email notifying them of the scheme... OAT are not making money out of that, as those notified will not be required to be re-assessed. Rather if they are shortlisted, they will go for an interview at TCX.

Stop being such a bunch of sceptics and scaremongers! If you want to save max cash, go modular. Easy. Just bear in mind that airlines do generally tend prefer an integrated low hours student. This much is fact
it isn't saying modular students wont get employment, however.

If you are sure expensive integrated training is the way for you, well this is cheaper, much cheaper. It also carries the all important conditional job offer.

I would, however like to know what OAT would do with those who got onto the scheme and were then subsequently dropped by TCX on the basis of their training performance. I would imagine TCX would lay fairly stringent guidelines to their cadets, merely because they can.

I would like to think that they would continue the APP course like anyone else, they'd be getting the money just the same.

moogleman

24th Jun 2006, 15:18

Mr Horgy,

I dont think anyone is really in a position to comment on the salary difference between a cadet on the TCA scheme and a direct entrant into the company, until the scheme is more fully explained at phase 2 of the assessment.

If the cadet also received £12,000 a year tax free (which is rumoured) on top of the basic salary then he will actually be getting paid more than a direct entrant, although obviously the 12,000 will have to go straight into loan repayments.

£20,843 (+ flight pay) is a comparable starting salary to a recent university graduate entering a graduate scheme with a big company such as Airbus/Rolls/BAe, so it is not all doom and gloom for a TCA cadet. Plently of people manage on a salary that size quite happily.

Of course all the numbers i've stated may be complete and utter rubbish, but none of us will know until the full details are released by OAT/TCA. Perhaps we should all wait until these details are available before trying to compare salaries of a direct entrant and a cadet.

MM

Frank Furillo

24th Jun 2006, 15:27

To quote Jetlagslag

Wait, theres more! A conditional job offer! worth the weight of a 757 in gold to any airline wannabes

You really believe that, well good for you, I don't, but then I am a bit more cynical than you are and I dare say it, older and wiser.
As they say, caveat emptor.
FF

jetlagslag

24th Jun 2006, 16:01

I do firmly believe it. I have seen dozens and dozens of pilots struggle to find employment, including right now, when the market is ideally situated, integrated and otherwise. Nobody in their right mind should think they are in a position fresh out of an FTO to think that someone like TCX is 'beneath' them. Its the all important aspect that makes the investment into an integrated course worthwhile.

Of course, as I said, theres no bond. Do the scheme, if its as bad as the scaremongers make out, disappear! go BA DEP or head to CX.

Its a competitive process, so I'm sure if one is of the calibre to get accepted onto this scheme, they have a good chance of attaining such goals as a Legacy airline pilot. Especially with a few yrs experience.
In such case, I doubt as to whether you'd be expected to pay for your second TR. Even if you did, who cares, everyone else fresh out of OAT APP does, bar I believe Excel and BA.

Lucifer

24th Jun 2006, 16:38

raviolis

24th Jun 2006, 21:39

It's not a case of being sceptical scaremongers.

Quite frankly I am very interested in this scheme and I would like to go for it, but I think 200 quid for the selection is an extortion. Considering I'll have to travel and find accomodation, plus taking time off work, it will probably cost me half grand altogether.

I am also not very sure about the application form for this scheme. Has anybody had a look at it ?
I think a Tesco application is more thorough and complete. This one has 3 questions... they basically don't even know who you are, where you studied or who you worked for. But it's enough information to decide whether you'll go to stage 2 or not.
Can't help thinking they are very keen on having people going to stage 2.

At least the CTC application was a lot more complex. You had to provide lots of details, referees, and then if they selected you there was one second part to send by fax.

Are they looking for the best motivated skilled young individuals ? Or for someone who's willing to take a financial risk ?

jetlagslag

24th Jun 2006, 22:37

200 quid isnt cheap, however none of the integrated schools are i'm afraid.. At the end of the day you're requiring a fair wack of time from professionals so I'n not sure you can grumble..

As for the application form... Maybe they are after people to get to stage 2, however I know how I'd like to be assessed. Testing, aptitude, teamworking and by interviews. Not some poxy application form. I assume the form is there above anything else to screen for eligability.

I'm sure with the competition aspect, they will get the best motivated and skilled individuals. Everybody must take financial risk in this game I'm afraid. Integrated is clearly the most expensive. This scheme works out financially beneficial to the cadet, so I hardly think they want those just willing to take financial risk above anything else!

Mikebert4

25th Jun 2006, 18:28

I've been reading the info on OAT's site about this scheme and two questions pop into my mind..

1. How flexible is their 'Don't apply with predicted A-level grades' statement? Because I'd like to start running through schemes like this to try and pick up after being dropped from phase4 of the MAPS scheme :(

2. Is this going to be run more often? As in once or twice a year? because If I can't apply until i've got my grades... will I be able to in the future?

Any light anyone can shed would be nice :)

Ta!
Mike

FunFlyin

25th Jun 2006, 19:32

Mike,
They will be quite strict about sadly.
Any schemes like this or true sponsorship schemes back in the day attract a huge number of applications which it takes a lot of admin to work through. Setting clauses like results etc are a way of cutting down the admin required and being able to give more attention to those that meet the criteria.

As to your second point noone will be able to answer sadly. This is the second year i think they have run this scheme and it is showing some forethought from the airline in judging their requirements. But who knows what will happen even while the current recruits are training - just ask the Aer Lingus cadets :ouch:

Adding on to what X3 said too - Take everything people say with a pinch of salt. There are lots here who will give genuine advice. But you also need to bear in mind Fto's are businesses at the end of the day. And all that i have come across are VERY good at their marketing ;)

Donandar

26th Jun 2006, 09:51

I think look at it this way...

You're still a self-sponsored student and not a cadet as you're still getting a loan from the bank - an agreement between you and the bank - not the airline and the bank. Therefore the cadet salaries you quote won't be applicable - instead they've just used the word 'cadet' to indicate you'll be on a 'special' salary geared towards this scheme and to help you with loan repayments. It's a valid possibility and would help explain a lot of the rash arguments to do with what you will be / wont be paid.

Good luck to all those who get to Stage 2 and learn more about it!!

EK4457

27th Jun 2006, 09:08

Donandar, TCX have never run a 'cadet scheme' as you define it. If what you are saying is true, TCX have never used their cadet salary as they never have any 'cadets'. The CTC scheme is run the same way as this Oxford scheme (but is around 20k cheaper).

I know for a fact that the Cadet pay structure is in use. It would be useful if you would stop making things up and claiming them to be facts. You cannot claim that these salaries are not applicable. There is nothing to suggest this.

I agree that they are NOT cadets, but TCX/OAT would very much like us to think that they ARE.

I think that my issue with the scheme is this:

Yes, comparison to a normal APP is favourable. The tax relief is a significant benefit (if that is what it turns out to be).

However, the scheme is marketed as an affordable alternative to the APP. Claims of paying back the training costs / favourable rates of pay / significantly larger than the usual (enormous) loan etc give the impression that this is a relly good deal.

The reality is that if you could not afford the APP, you can't afford this. A tax fiddle on your loan payments, whilst nice, doesn't even dent a loan of 60k.

As I have said earlier, those who have already decided on the APP know the costs involved and are prepared to pay them (although I recently read a thread of a guy who was going on the APP with no flying experience because he 'couldn't afford a PPL' !!?? :ugh: ).

For this scheme you need (in addition to your 60k loan) 4k for fees, food and accomodation for 13 months and then to live on the lowest jet salary around for 7 years.

The marketing for the scheme should say this:

'If you can afford the APP and are already thinking about it, then apply for this because it's got the benefit of a bit of tax fiddling plus a good chance of a job.'

But it actually says this:

'These courses are really expensive and not everybody can afford it. But now you can! We give you a bigger loan but that doesn't matter because you'll get a job with TCX who will pay it all back for you. You can't loose (don't forget your £200 cheque).'

They are aiming at a certain type of person, and by the look of some of the posts, they are going to get them and their application fees.

Just not cricket.

EK

jetlagslag

27th Jun 2006, 09:35

The reality is that if you could not afford the APP, you can't afford this. A tax fiddle on your loan payments, whilst nice, doesn't even dent a loan of 60k.
EK

the tax and NI 'fiddle' is worth 30k in tax alone, not to mention NI, and that lower salary = lower tax bracket, thousands saved there too.

Pilot Pete

27th Jun 2006, 11:19

and that lower salary = lower tax bracket, thousands saved there too.

Are you for real? I have never, ever heard anyone put forward an argument that a lower salary is better than a higher salary because of the tax break!:rolleyes: Which marketing department do you have aspirations of joining?:D

PP

Shamrock274

27th Jun 2006, 11:26

just been thinking, would it not ease things a bit if i were to joing the RAF cadets while at Uni and gain a PPL, i know the one in cambridge offers a PPL?? does anyone know more about this??

jetlagslag

27th Jun 2006, 11:45

What I'm saying is that having 12k un-taxed a year makes all the difference in this scheme.

circa 30k for the tax on this, plus the additional tax savings by being in a different tax bracket, rather than earn 12k a year more, and be taxed on everything prior to repaying the loan.

Do the maths PP. This is my background. I am not anything to do with scheme, I was asked by certain folk to add what i thought about the financial aspect.

If the salary is the same as the TCX cadet salary, the financial benefits far outweigh and APPFO. Do the calculations, but use all variables, not the ones that make this scheme sound crap, rather than stupid sarcastic comments about marketing.

I work in finance. I earn very very well. I must therefore be doing something right.

I am unsure about the ins and outs of the CTC scheme, although for young prospective pilots, it looks attractive. There's a bond I believe, but otherwise...

I love this thread, absolute bitterness it seems about OAT. It prompted me to do some looking into it. Well sadly, whether you like OAT/integrated, or whether you like their marketing stance... The airlines seem to love them. Fact. Dont like it? Then dont go there. It is very much you get what you pay for, and I'm not suggesting that top instruction isn't available elsewhere, merely you're paying to have OAT (with all their clever marketing to airlines) on your CV.

Pilot Pete

27th Jun 2006, 12:06

merely you're paying to have OAT (with all their clever marketing to airlines) on your CV.

And if you knew anything about the aviation industry you would realize that having OAT on your CV is marketing hype. Remember, some of us don't work in finance, we work at the pointy end of big jets and 'earn very well' thankyou and like to pass on the benefit of our experience to new guys thinking of schemes such as this. It's nothing to do with bitterness towards OAT, just a 'reality check' about the perceived benefits of such a scheme compared to what else is available. I went to OAT for part of my training many years ago and with experience and hindsight I can categorically state that it was not the best training available, certainly not the best price available, but it served a purpose under different training regs to today and got me qualified sooner than another route would have. I left the place with my ticket and 'OAT' on my CV (which was worthless), so paying the amount that this scheme requires to have it on your CV is in my opinion a waste of money. Go modular and achieve good grades in a similar timescale (do it full time) and you shouldn't have too much trouble getting a job in the next few years with the projected requirements for new pilots in the UK airlines. If the job market holds up then you will be substancially better off. If it doesn't, then you will still be better off because you won't have so much debt around your neck and no flying job (remember that conditional job offer is worthless if the job market doesn't hold up). That's all the maths you really need to do.

As long as new guys go into these schemes with their eyes open then fine, enjoy, but make sure you enjoy for quite some time or can use it to get where you want to be on a decent salary.

PP

bluepeely

27th Jun 2006, 14:34

I'm thinking of going modular and was gonna try ota's waypoint. anyone got any ideas if its all what its cracked up to be or if there are any better ones out there????:bored:

Dave Martin

27th Jun 2006, 15:11

PP, I'm not even eligible for this scheme so I'm not coming from a pro-OAT standpoint, but I think you are missing a fundamental plus of this scheme.

Who can fund modular or integrated training? I certainly can't and earning about 18K after tax each year I will probably never be able to. I also don't have security, in the form of property or other assets with which to take out a loan.

The TCX scheme gives chosen candidates open access to a loan, to pilot training and direct entry in to a cereer which would otherwise be IMPOSSIBLE. You can slate the amount of debt all you like, but what the scheme offers (with no age limit) is unheard of these days and quite simply opens doors that are otherwise firmly shut.

Add to this the fact that the loan could easily be paid off in 7 years and the offer is extremely attractive. It took me a decade to pay off my student loan and that was substantially less than the debt incurred on this sponsorship.

I don't think anyone is being deceived in to thinking this is something that it isn't. The reality is laid out clear, and from my experience last year, if you progress to stage II then you are given a thorough briefing on the financial details surrounding this.

jetlagslag

27th Jun 2006, 16:55

If this is all just marketing hype, and you're right, I know little about the aviation industry barring a little private flying, why is it that OAT seem to have a better track record than anyone (barring CTC, for obvious reasons) of getting students into jobs?

I'm more than aware that not all OAT grads walk into an airline job, however OAT does seem to be leading the market. As I said, I am sure that equally good instruction (if not better) is available in dribs and drabs, so in this case, why dont other schools have such a record of getting their students jobs?

I dont mean to be argumentative PP, I am just now very curious what it is that helps get OAT grads into jobs. I'd be inclined to think that it was due to either tuition or the 'prestige' value of OAT on your CV. You've said otherwise, so unless OAT are lying when they produce stats about getting recent grads into jobs, I dont know what else it can be?

Of course, one must go in eyes wide open, reviewing the Ts & Cs is vital, although as I have mentioned, I cant see it being such a contract so as to screw the cadets over. TCX is a winner in this too, no doubt.

If there are no vacancies at TCX upon graduation PP, in your eperience, would you suggest that the small number of those successful in getting onto what I'm sure will be a very selective scheme would be of a suitable calibre to have as good a shout as any other low hours pilot to get a good job straight up? Barring a downturn in the market, of course.

Pilot Pete

27th Jun 2006, 21:52

They don't necessarily have a hand in getting all their students jobs. Me for instance. I will have been one of their 'success stories' in days gone by, but they didn't do anything whatsoever to help me. Either that or they just don't count people who they don't keep in touch with.

As far as the airlines are concerned, yes, many have a preference for integrated pilots due to the perceived 'continuity' and standardisation of the training. These days of course some 'selection' has been done by many of the integrated training organizations before the training starts, so I guess some sort of perceived 'quality check' has also been done in the eyes of an airline. Sure also that some airlines think that the product meets a certain level and it is easier to approach OAT than sift through hundreds of CVs. Recommendations are VERY useful in this industry, but this is a huge sum of money to pay for one (if TCX don't offer a job)!

The big BUT is the point I raised earlier though and that is the state of the job market. It is better now than it has been for MANY years and if world and economic events don't take a turn for the worse, then in 2 years from now (when anyone who signs up for training now will be on the job market) there should be fewer problems getting a start. Just look at the airline requirements for future pilots;

My airline wants somewhere in the region of 100 pilots per year for the next five years. A mate at Jet2 tells me they want 100 next year. Easy and Ryan wants god knows how many hundreds (thousands?) over the coming years, BA will still have a similar requirement and that is just 5 airlines off the top of my head. My point is that this scheme may not look quite as rosy when you start on Day 1 with the airline alongside some Modular pilot who trained over the same period and who has a fraction of the debts and earns more money! OK that is theoretical at the moment, but just watch the minimum entry requirements for new pilots keep sinking lower and lower as the supply starts to slip behind the requirement. One thing that is guaranteed is that the airlines won't spend too long cancelling flights due to lack of pilots. My airline has reduced the number of hours required for command from 5000 down to 3000 and now again down to 2500 in just 18 months. They are also getting fewer 'suitable' applicants than previously for S/O and F/O positions. Interestingly, they and a number of other jet operators are starting to see a few problems with 200hr pilots and are not overly happy with the product being provided by the likes of CTC. In the last 12 months I know of half a dozen CTC pilots who have been sent back and we have had 3 tailscrapes by similar experience level pilots.

What does all this mean? Not having a go at low houred pilots, there are good and bad, just like 10,000hr pilots. The point being that the number of good quality low hour pilots has dropped due to the sheer numbers available having dropped and this bodes well for any good quality low houred pilot who I think will be in more demand in a few years time!

Undoubtably, if TCX don't employ a cadet upon qualification then they stand just as much chance as any other low houred pilot in the open market, my argument would be that it is then a free for all and the modular guy will be in the same position, with considerably less debt. I know a guy personally who was an Aer Lingus cadet at Jerez when 9/11 happened. He wasn't taken on, finished the rest of his course at his own expense to get qualified and has been trying in vain since then to get a start with anyone else. The good news is that I heard through a mutual friend that he has recently got a start....that's over 4 years later and being a cadet (in the true sense of it; not having to pay) didn't get him a job elsewhere. Remember that this industry is notoriously difficult to get into and be under no illusions; with minimal hours you are still (presently) ten-a-penny; that's the reality, and the airlines are businesses that don't go in for romanticism of having paid for a TCX course through OAT. It will be dog-eat-dog if TCX don't offer you a start.....

Equally jetlagslag I don't wish to argue, I just want to put the alternative side from an experienced view point. This is Wannabes and all too often the rose tinted spectacles are on posters who rarely do as much indepth research as you obviously have.:ok:

'Eyes open' would be the best comment for anyone considering signing for this deal. Good luck to all.

PP

EK4457

28th Jun 2006, 11:27

PilotPete: Couldn't agree more.

JetLagSlag: Errrrm, if you work in finance then that's quite scary. Firstly, the tax saved is around 21k by my calcs. Take into account the fact that you have a loan 10k more than other APP guys (with the extra interest) then, yes, it is an advantage, but not as big as you are making out. Which was always my point.

Secondly,

and that lower salary = lower tax bracket, thousands saved there too.
Well, I'm off to my boss to ask for a massive pay reduction! Just think of all of the tax saved! In fact, if I work for 4k per year, then I don't pay any tax at all!
I don't think so. You will find that, generally speaking, earning less is not a good way of making money.
If you were good at your job, you would have realised that any tax saved in your model has already been taken into account in this '30k' figure you have plucked out of one of OAT's dodgy calculators. You have used the same figures twice.

Thirdly,

If there are no vacancies at TCX upon graduation PP, in your eperience, would you suggest that the small number of those successful in getting onto what I'm sure will be a very selective scheme would be of a suitable calibre to have as good a shout as any other low hours pilot to get a good job straight up? Barring a downturn in the market, of course.
So modular would have been a better route for these high calibre candidates, as they have spent less money AND will get snapped up by the airlines?

Bluepeely:
I was thinking of OAT Waypoint. That was untill they said you HAD to complete your ATPL's with them. That put me right off on principle. If I have decided that BGS is the better option for me, why should I have to compromise that in order to have the 'honour' of flying at Oxford?

The whole point of modular is choice. Oxford think they can take this away in order to make more $$.
The reason given is typically weak and hypocritical. Apparantly, airlines only like trainees who have learnt all of their flying at the same school. Rubbish.

I know of no one who has not been selected as a result of attending different training schools. Different schools specialise in different aspects of training. Some are groundschool only. Some are PPL only. Some are Commercial/IFR only. The fact that this is rubbish is proven by the fact that OAT don't do PPL anymore. Why? Not enough profit.

So, you have to do ALL of your ATPL at OAT for continuity. Except when you actually learn to fly for the first time. AND all of your hour building. That's over 60% of your flying.

What they actually mean is: we only do the most expensive part of training as this is the most profitable part. And were going to make you do it all with us if you want to take advantage of our 'relationship' with the airlines.

The OAT website acually made me laugh when I took the time to read it.

Rant nearly over......

I have a genuine question:

If it is possible for an employer to take £X from your salary to pay off a training loan tax free, then why don't all airlines offer this to their low hour recruits? After all, this set up costs the airline no money at all.

Discuss.

EK

Donandar

28th Jun 2006, 11:40

I would have thought you can't just 'set one up' - you'd probably have to go through lengthy processes with the Inland Revenue to allow for tax-free pay scheme such as this one. Wonder if they get anything out of it, or if it is simply that they waiver it?

Gotta love the British Government - I think they screw us over more than any FTO! :ok:

*places topic back on track*

Superpilot

28th Jun 2006, 11:41

I'm not saying getting a job after training is gonna be a walk in the park but heck I'll be happier with my 20k or so debt. No matter what anyone says money is happiness, lack of it is nothing but pain and strain both emotionally and physically. Don't fall for this debt trap, you won't be escaping it very easily especially if as PP says the tide changes and you're either totally without a chance of an Airline job due to some kind of economic crisis or the Airline Market explands at a mighty rate and your Modular peers are doing the same job as you! One thing you can bet is that it will swing one way or the other for sure!!!

mad_jock

28th Jun 2006, 13:05

Donandar

You are right to mention the tax man.

The only way this scheme works is by using a loophole in the legislation. It is not unpossible for the goverment to decide to shut this loophole at any time.
All it would take is for them to tweak it and suddenly the money payments stops being a reduced salary and becomes a benfit inkind and so due tax and NI contributions. Then you looking at an additional 350-400 quid a month off your salary in tax.

As has been said before I have no doudt that the training will be "Industry Standard" but it has the possibility to be one of the most expensive training course's on the market. It has no garantee's at all.

Is anyone else wondering about the the suitability to become a pilot of someone who is willing to accept so much risk on the possibility of something which might happen, which is reliant on so many factors which they have no control over. One of which is the goverment and policys, second is the global politics, third is the middle east, forth is oil price, fith is euroland enviromental politics (another bloody tax) etc etc etc.

I can assure you that if there were so many factors involved, loose promises from the engineers that the engine's might be OK. The fuel might be enough. The plane might be legal when you get to the other end. And if it all doesn't work out you will be paying 1000 pounds a month for the next 10 years or become bankrupt. And you have no say in any of the above factors .No Commercial pilot would except the trip.

If you do decide to go for this make sure you know what the bankrupts legislation is. Make sure you can fit the profile and as soon as it goes wrong file and sod the banks. With any luck a couple doing that will make them stop this terrible practise of allowing gullable teenagers into exposing themselves and thier parents to so much risk. Then we can put this ****e to bed.

jetlagslag

28th Jun 2006, 16:56

EK

if the 12k a yr was added to gross salary and taxed, the tax savings - tax bracket and all is pushing 30k. each monthly tax saving is worth upwards of £350ish. That makes over 29k. Add the NI... Way over 30k.

Ok, What would you rather, earn say 32k gross, or earn 32k, of which 20k is taxable? That is essentially what it is.

The TCX scheme allows a 60k loan. Its for the candidates to select it. If one has no loan at all, the same figures apply. It would be illegal for it to be done any other way, as the loan excludes TCX, I know.

All you are doing is turning this into an integrated vs modular scheme again.

PP wrote very well for his argument, and in all, that has turned out to be an integrated vs modular point too.

This does not belong in this thread. Its chalk and cheese as we all know.

TCX vs integrated, however? TCX is financially more beneficial. Free TR also. Oh, and no bond mean you can leave and become a 'normal' post integrated FO, should you feel the need.

Very amusing argument about earning less to earn more, but unless you are utterly stupid, you would know exactly what I was alluding to.

I have no interest in this scheme, but its for those considering an INTEGRATED training course, for whatever reason, one hopes they will have made a concious decision that integrated is for them. So what mad jock is saying is that integrated should be banned... As the extra 10k loan is there due to increased job probability. That much is fairly reasonable. Neither HSBC, OAT or TCX will make you take out the full 60, so to repeatedly use the 'extra 10k increased debt' argument is completely unarguable. If you can afford the normal APPFO with a 50k loan, you'd be amonsgt the most unwise to take out the full 60.

Regarding the very good question 'why dont all airlines use this idea for their low hrs pilots?' or words to that effect, It is a lengthy process, and one which will be judged individually by the inland revenue. It would have to be the result of a scheme similar to this, basically. Not being in the aviation industry, I would hazard a guess that the reason all airlines don't do this is because they won't wish to commit to a gang of newbies. Having cleared by the inland revenue, the govt could do bugger all to those on the scheme. They could, however stop it happening again. This would probably be the end of CTC though, as from what ive seen, without looking deep into CTC, it appears very similar, however the debt becomes the airlines rather than the cadets. it will however be paid from a wad of 'tax friendly' cash too!

BitMoreRightRudder

28th Jun 2006, 17:14

CTC appears similar, however the debt becomes the airlines rather than the cadets.

I dunno about that mate!

jetlagslag

28th Jun 2006, 17:18

apologies if im wrong, as i said i know little about CTC, but it was my understanding that the airline take the debt from you upon recruitment, therefore the cadet is bonded?

femaleWannabe

28th Jun 2006, 17:33

with CTC the debt is all yours... however the airline do make monthly payments to you of £1000 for you to pay back the loan. That's assuming you get a job of course... and you are bonded for 7 years... if you leave then you take the debt with you.

jetlagslag

28th Jun 2006, 17:51

Femalewannabe,

thanks for clarifying that. Is the £1000 a month part of gross salary? or is it tax free as per TCX?

I dont understand the point of the bond if the debt remains with the cadet..

femaleWannabe

28th Jun 2006, 18:16

Its a year or so since I've checked the site, but from what I remember the airline makes payments to you to cover the bond, no mention of tax so I would assume that the after tax payment is enough to cover the loan....

http://www.ctcaviation.co.uk/wings/040204.html#finance

"As a cadet pilot, during employment the airline will repay your bond in repayments that equate to those that you will be required to make to your bank."

BitMoreRightRudder

28th Jun 2006, 18:29

jet

It is indeed tax free as per TCX. Some of CTC's partner airlines differ in the way they handle the loan repayment. The new OAT scheme from what I have seen is very similar to the standard CTC arrangement. To be honest I'm unsure if the term 'bond' is relevant to the CTC scheme, as the cadet takes a loan from HSBC and it remains the reponsibility of the cadet to repay the loan regardless of what happens from that point on. CTC offers some form of financial safety net in the case of failure but the exact details of it are somewhat murky!

mad_jock

28th Jun 2006, 20:15

I am not saying Intergrated should be banned. All methods of legal training have there place as every person has there own method of learning. And if parents can afford to fund there spawn good on them. If enterprising young men and women sell there bodies in the sex industry and earn 100k for the training all power to them. Its thier money they can spend it on what they like. But I would imagine that after a year or 2 of being "shagged" they will have a very switched on sense of value of every pound spent.

Its like most wannabies which I count myself as a member of who earned their money before doing the training. It's completely a different kettle of fish spending someones else's money before earning it, to working like a bastard to reach your goal. In the days of raping companys in the IT contracting game I would have had to work an extra 100 days to make up for the difference in price. More like 150 days if I was working in the Uk under our tax rules. You know the worth of EVERY pound spent even if you are earning them at 3 am waiting for the robo tape drive to restore the sodding micro****e server pressing the the OK button ever 30mins but hey it was 25 quid for every mouse click. And of course the finance training in about all of the EU's tax regulations which those great chaps in Jersey are worth every pound spent ( which in my case was 5% of income)

The selling of a dream with half promises, market spin and a huge debt which if you were applying to do anything other than the course suggested would be smiled at only, is an issue to me. This is all to people who are in principle just very nice everyday people who do there bit, work hard, try and do there best for thier kids and have never been exposed to the harsh back stabbing world of flying.

You sign on the line with all trust, these days you don't meet the poor sods who lost 30-40k on that Bournmouth lot. Which is maybe why that us old sods are so vocal against any form of pre-payment and debt. I had the unfortunate experence of being at the exams in Gatwick when 15 people got told by the CAA that there training provider had just folded, for 1 poor bastard it was the second time it had happend to him. BTW the guys in FCL were brillant that day all pilots got dragged in and talked to about what happens next etc.

The views of quite a few on here are from the days in 2000-2002 when there was alot of crap going on. We have lived with and trained under the conversion to JAR the folding of 2 companys which stung a hell of alot of people. We work with and see alot of new recruit pilots ,we know what happens with people moving on, we share hotels with other company's pilots. We hear the bitching and the moans (which to be honest seem to be industry wide and not one company is better than the other). You speak to FO's who are on 35-40k a year on a jet job. But they are re-paying sometimes 50% of their pay in loan repayments after tax. We still speak to TP fo's who left for Jet jobs who want to come back but can't because they are trapped. Yes yes i know its plat stripes not silver but your still 15+ years to command, your pension is a pile of ****e. You have to live in the south, there is a bit of a debate if the FO is second in command or the number 1. Your getting a piss poor salary for where your living. But hey if your happy go for it.

I am far better off with no loans and no repayments flying in scotland as a FO on a TP on 27k (plus flight pay) a year for a regional operator (I started on 20k 2.5 years ago) I haven't payed for a type yet, modular trained and its bloody good fun.

My total so far is 35k spent on training including FI rating and topups on FI pay started Sept 2000 with a PPL with good old AT in FL. And now 2.7K hours 1.6k of them turbine. You can take or leave my advice I really don't care. But I won't stay mum with utter explotation of innocent punters by the training establishments. The bloody scary thing is that they have manage to convert there punters to spreading the same ****e as thier marketing deptments.

PS i know my spelling and grammar is pish, I am a dixie mechanical engineer who uses more of his degree everyday more than most that graduated with me.

scroggs

29th Jun 2006, 10:54

My, this argument has become interesting!

There are a lot of factors at work here, and this scheme is designed to attract those who like 'ready-made' solutions, regardless of cost. Nothing wrong with that per se; that's why restaurants exist, and goodness-knows how many other services that present you with a turnkey product. That's certainly the appeal for TCX - and they get the additional guarantee that OAT's reputation relies on the product (the student) being acceptable.

As a way of getting into a jet airline, and bypassing all that tedious job-searching, air taxi and turboprop time, this is as good as they come. However, you do need to seriously think about how you will feel in a few years' time when the ex-modular guy beside you at check-in is earning considerably more money and has less debt. You may well say, "Who cares, I'm flying a jet now and that's all I wanted, whatever the cost." Well, it may seem worth it at this end of the process, but you'll have a long time to regret not maximising your earnings potential! Whatever you feel about it now, you will come to see flying as just a job, and the practical day-to-day considerations of how you pay the mortgage, keep the wife/kids/girlfriend happy, repair the car and put food on the table will assume far greater importance than whether you cruise at 200kts or Mach 0.855. Believe it.

Now, to the other aspect of the arguments above. The future of flying training is still being decided by the market, but the days of the unselected, self-sponsored pilot are surely limited. How limited I don't know, but if airlines see the standard of new hires dropping (or there becomes a perception that that is the case, whatever the reality), they will have to do something about it, and the likely course of action will be to progress to pre-selected students from courses such as this OAT one or the CTC Wings course.

If aviation continues to expand, as it seems highly likely to (fuel sources allowing), airlines will need to look to a more structured training industry with a more standardised, high-quality output. Courses like this one and CTC's are the first steps towards this, and I believe they will become the norm (though with a different structure) in the future.

That is not to say that they are necessarily the right way ahead for an individual while options exist. I suggest that for the majority of you, modular courses taken full-time and consecutively to completion would be a better value-for-money solution. and that is likely to remain the case for some time to come.

Scroggs

mbcxharm

29th Jun 2006, 12:27

Just to illustrate the point re: tax relief I've come up with a simple scenario comparison:

Scenario 1: Borrow £30000 at 6.75% (HSBC rate) and repay from full FO salary over 7 years.

Scenario 2: Borrow £60000 at 6.75% and repay from reduced cadet FO salary and £1000 tax free payment over 7 years.

Result:

Scenario 1: Total repayment = £37280, total take home after tax = £209,200.
Total take home after repayments = £171,920.

Scenario 2: Total repayment = £74560, total take home after tax = £232,600.
Total take home after repayments = £158,040.

Implication: Scenario 2 is more expensive than Scenario 1 by approx. £13,880.

Notes:

1) TCX salary scales from http://www.thomascookjobs.com used for comparison between 'cadet' and 'non-cadet' scales.
2) Constant interest rate used. Increased interest rate will make scenario 2 more expensive still.

Obviously Scenario 1 is intended to illustrate a modular route and Scenario 2 intended to illustrate the CTC/OAT schemes. At one time the CTC scheme 'partners' contributed an extra £5000 for the training year towards living expenses, which would also obviously reduce the effective extra cost of this route. I'm not sure whether this is still the case. So, to me the question is whether the conditional job offer is worth sacrificing an extra ~£14000 over the first 7 years of your career.

Other things I haven't taken into account:

1) Pension. Obviously on a reduced salary the company get to make less of a contribution to your defined contribution pension. In my case this would amount to approx £1000 a year less in my pension pot.

2) Promotion. You will notice from the TCX website that there is a single cadet salary scale, with no difference between FO and SFO. That means that when you unfreeze your ATPL you get no extra money, but continue to move, year on year, up the cadet scale. An equivalent 'non-cadet' would move to year 1 SFO effectively bypassing 1 year or so (depending on how long it takes to get the ATPL) of the FO salary scale.

I'm sure there's more, but beyond the scope of this intentionally simple comparison.

sam026

29th Jun 2006, 12:56

Oxford have teamed with TCA to produce a sponsorship (ish) scheme. (you will see what i mean once you have read the page on:

www.oxfordaviation.net (http://www.oxfordaviation.net)

This shows that airlines do like OAT for their quality training, and are willing to take the Financial risk with them!!!

Good luck to all who try!:ok:

thank you very much .......

i have applied for this ....thanks for the information.

EGCC4284

29th Jun 2006, 13:22

This shows that airlines do like OAT for their quality training, and are willing to take the Financial risk with them!!!

I am a modular guy. It cost me about £35,000 in total.

It took about 5 years from beginning to end whilst still working full time earning around £20,000 - £30,000 a year.

I cannot believe why anyone would get involved with a £60,000 loan with NO guarantee of a job. Its crazy.

Scroggs, I totally agree with you on this one.

This shows that airlines do like OAT for their quality training.

What just like all the airlines love CTC as well.

The drums are beginning to sound. Many within the industry are not of the same opinion.

BitMoreRightRudder

29th Jun 2006, 16:23

Whatever you feel about it now, you will come to see flying as just a job, and the practical day-to-day considerations of how you pay the mortgage, keep the wife/kids/girlfriend happy, repair the car and put food on the table will assume far greater importance than whether you cruise at 200kts or Mach 0.855. Believe it.
Scroggs

You should carve that on a stone tablet and hang it at the entrance to wannabes.

Dave Martin

29th Jun 2006, 16:29

EGCC,

With all due respect, why would anyone necessarily want to spend 5 years and £35,000 going modular with no guarantee of a job at the end of it either?

You could have a PhD/Msc or MBA for less than the cost of going modular and in almost half the number of years. That might also not be everyones cup of tea, but given an fATPL and no job is about as useful as tits on a bull anyway everyone is in the same boat.

One of the prime arguments against this scheme seems to be a potential for lack of recruiting and/or substantial job losses in 5-10 years. If that is to occur, having done a one year intergrated "career-break", blasting yourself 60K into debt followed by a return to the work force if it all goes wrong might not be such a silly idea. A lot can happen in 5 years after all.

I wouldn't throw £35,000 or £60,000 into either, considering there are no hard statistics on employment potential, increasing political and environmental pressures on aviation, not less that most market booms (such as aviation is seeing) generally experience similar sized downturns.

At the same time, there is very little else out there in the way of schemes that offer even a conditional guarantee of employment and such easy access to finance. I'm sure anyone even considering an ATPL will have some kind of financial reserve so for just how many is this scheme actually going to put them 60k in debt?

rsr3

29th Jun 2006, 21:06

I've applied, they say they'll let you know if you've got through to stage two by the 30th June at the latest, either by email or letter. Anybody heard anything yet?

MBA

30th Jun 2006, 12:09

Hi guys,
Just reading some of the posts on this forum and I thought I would add my own thoughts.
I went through the CTC scheme, and yes there are some downsides e.g. less paid into your pension, but I simply cannot complain. I am 26 and sitting in the right hand seat of a 757 with 500 hours and having a great time.
I agree over the 7 year period I may be £14000 down compared to a modular guy, but I choose the sponsored route for some good reasons.
1. At least through a decent selection scheme like CTC's you will be told whether or not you are good enough to make it as a commercial pilot.
2. There is a lot of hastle with arranging all your own training - and if you chose the wrong training provider your training maybe of a diminshed quality, and a prospective employer may frown on not using a reptible organisation.
3. Going along the modular route you have no guarantee of a job at the end of the training. I know guys who started training the same time as me (2 years ago) and whereas I am now happily flying they are still looking for jobs - with interest on their loans increasing all the time.
4.Coming from a self improver background - modular - you are more likely to get a turbo prop job than a jet job. Through CTC you are almost 99.9% guaranteed to get a jet job with an airline as long as you pass the training.
5. All the hastle of organising the training is taken away from you, and you are given a sense of security with a sponsored agreement as opposed to a feeling of very much being on your own through a modular training course. There is a great deal of support from a sponsoring training company.
6. Sponsored schemes are generally more accelerated. I.e. I was sitting in the right hand seat of the 757 after only 20 months of training - and as I went through the CTC scheme this inlcuded many more hours training than the minimum required by the CAA (which is generally what modular guys have at the end of their training).
I have to add that these are only some of the plus points and I could go on and on. So from where I am now sitting a £14000 difference over the 7 years is more than worth it. Trust me. If I had to do it all over again I wouldnt change a thing. The choice is obviously yours so dont let my experience sway your decision in anyway. But I thought I would counter some of the negative arguments already posted.
Safe flying guys and best of luck. I hope you all make it. :)

sicky

30th Jun 2006, 13:11

We'd all do CTC if we could, i'm sure, but the main problem is getting on the course to start with. Fingers crossed when i can re-apply in sept :}

EK4457

30th Jun 2006, 13:41

MBA,

Some very interesting and good points. It seems that you have chosen a route which is suited to you.

However, you seem to be comparing yourself to a modular student. I thought the CTC scheme was modular in NZ? It appears that you have paid 14k for a contiational job offer. If you think its worth it, then like I say, it was the right move for you. I personally would rather keep the deposit on a house.

Having said that, the CTC scheme (which is NOT sponsorship - you'll find your name on the loan agreement) is by far the best of its kind. This is mainly due to the fact that it's cheaper as it is modular. Last I saw was a loan of 50k covered it all (it may well be more now) compared to 60k plus 4k plus around 10 to 15k food and accomodation on the OAT scheme.

Basically, you got a better deal on a better scheme, perhaps 20k to 30k cheaper than this OAT/TCX scheme. Add the 14k you feel you lost out on compared to self-selected modular and it makes me shiver.

:bored:

EK

mbcxharm

30th Jun 2006, 15:25

My previous post was just intended to show some facts, but I am of a similar opinion to MBA. I came through the CTC scheme a year after September 11th, when things weren't as rosy as they appear to be now, and with the 5 grand living expenses I'm worse off by about 9 grand compared to a modular student. For me, the conditional job offer from the sponsor airline, confidence from having passed a rigorous selection procedure and 30 grand money back if you flunk meant that keeping my nervous system in check for the year's training was probably, for me, worth the extra expense. I would not have been able to put myself through the same without the support I received from both CTC and my airline during that period. I appreciate that not everyone is the same in this respect.

The point that keeps coming up about CTC being a modular course is irrelevant. It has some implications for the way hours are logged and hour requirements for licence issue, but that is it. The 'bond' was never as low as £50000, it started at £60000 and I believe now there is a supplement to be payed if you are starting ab-initio, for the PPL phase. This puts the total basic cost at a level very similar to the OAT TCX scheme, excluding the issue about accomodation/travel costs.

raviolis

30th Jun 2006, 15:53

I applied to the Thomas Cook sponsorship and, surprise surprise, I have been invited to the selection process.

If I have been invited (little flying experience, non perfect age for a cadet (over 27) , non-British passport, average education) then I am pretty sure everybody else will. The screening is so superficial that I'm sure whoever meets the legal minimum requirement will go through.

I don't think I want to spend 200 quid + travel + accomodation + time off work for this.. but I'll think about it. Honestly, if it wasn't for the huge fee, I'd give it a go. The 757 rating at the end of it makes it very interesting.

Incidentally, I have been invited to the NATS selection too.. and it's free, plus they refund your travel expenses. Goes to show that recruitment can be done without taking advantage of people's dreams and ambitions !

regards

rsr3

30th Jun 2006, 16:12

Raviolis,

Were you invited via email or post? I'm anxious as to find out what decision they've reached now, be it good or a bad news.

Cheers

rsr3

BitMoreRightRudder

30th Jun 2006, 16:19

People can be so naive..................................................educa tions matters little for a pilot

Pot, Kettle and Black.
:rolleyes:

raviolis

30th Jun 2006, 16:24

I am not complaining, I'm just saying that at 200 quid a go, everybody will be invited.

raviolis

30th Jun 2006, 16:29

rsr3
got an email a couple of hours ago...

rsr3

30th Jun 2006, 16:36

Cheers, thanks

bigdaviet

30th Jun 2006, 16:46

Does anybody know what the Foot co-ordination tests will be like?

mad_jock

30th Jun 2006, 21:46

You lot really haven't worked it out yet have you?

Everyone will be able to spend 200 quid on the assesment day. Its part of the marketing plan. There is nothing on the assesment day apart from a bit of food which isn't already covered by the fixed costs of the school being open that day. Its almost pure profit. It also has a huge amount of marketing bull****e, if you make punters think they are having to be better than everyone else to "earn" a place on a course they are going to think that the course which they are going to spend there money on is better than everyone elses.

The Uni's learn't this about 10 years ago which was why all of a sudden they all started having interviews. The harder you work the student in the interview and the fact you only give them a conditional makes them believe that the course at xxx is better than yyy just because yyy gives then an uncondional with no interview.

There is only proberly about 5 chances of a job going (please note the word chance!!! ) There will be upwards of 100+ people applying. 20 grand easy money!!!!!!, Out of the 95+ that did apply and didn't get chosen proberly 10-20 will get conned into going self sponsered anyway.

Being a cynical git make sure you don't take your parents with you to the assesment day. When asked what do you parents do answer "my father is a bin man and my mother cleans for the council" I suspect there will be a bit of well if they don't get it they will do the course anyway if you answer my father is a broker and my mummy a GP. Thats another seat filled. If they think you can't afford it and you won't be coming if you don't get the tick you might have a different reply.

The whole thing is just a huge marketing ploy to get students and parents through the door on a promise. Once through the door then the full power of the marketing Power point can come into its own. Parents can be swoon by all the other cadets having fancy uniforms, bright flashy lights in that thing they call a 737 sim which in reality is just a FNPT2 . The old frasca down the corridor makes more difference to the students than the 737 thing but I bet they don't show them that. They will have RAF multi crews proberly wandering through to ops at just the right time. Parents get informed O the RAF get us to do all there multi training. Little do they know in 12 months time little johnny will be getting bumped off a trip because a RAF chap needs the plane to complete thier course.

Don't be gullable young prats see through the marketing and if you still want to go for it afterwards go for it but don't borrow and don't believe anything these marketing prats tell you.

O aye the foot thing is usually a box and a ball which fannys around, a stick will do the up and down and the pedals do the left and right. It will slip both ways and you just have to change your input to keep it in a box. The other one i have done is you steer a blob through a set of dimonds trying hit as many as possible using you feet while you hands have to do something else which is always making you work cross controls ie if your left hand is down you will be controlling with your right foot and vice versu.

Adrioun

30th Jun 2006, 22:40

hi all,

I've read many opinions since the beginning of this topic, quite hard to make a decision on my own. Though, since I've been looking closer to training courses (either modular or integrated) there will always pros and cons and there's not just one way of getting into a cockpit.

I thank you all for you different opinions, the only thing quite annoying, many of you are speaking from non official sources and personnal thoughts. Why not just wait till Stage 2 till we have official and written financial conditions.

I'll see you at Stage 2 anyways, but even though the assessment cost is quite huge, i'm giving it a go, that is still an interview and it makes good experience for the future.

Though, thanks to those with objective opinions !
All pros and cons opinions have to been taken into consideration, at least we won't have to complain like "I didn't know about..!". But I'll give it a go anyways.

Anyone knows an easy way to get to Oxford ? I'll be travelling from Paris CDG .

Thanks to all, good luck through stage 2.

mad_jock

30th Jun 2006, 23:12

Well your are well wrong there, i never paid 200 quid to be choosen to buy a service that I WANTED off any flying school. And if you bother to note I am actually flying the line. You are quite correct you are paying for a service, you are paying for all those marketing mincers to sell you the product.

When they tell you its 200 quid for the assement day just ask them I am paying cash are you wanting my 60k or what? See what the reply is.

I have never been refused training off oxford. I did modular ground school with them 4 years ago now. And was very pleased with what I payed for. In fact Mr C from the modular ground school is level first with all the ground school training I have done so far in my flying career.

The sample physics and maths paper are in my opinion are so basic a second year school student could do them. In fact the physics has 2 glaring mistakes in it which the questions are vague in the nicest sense and down right ill worded and wrong in the worst. If you fail the assement you should really consider if you should be driving a car never mind flying a plane.

now the brake down of the profit on a assesment day.

1. Staff, all on a fixed salary they would be at work anyway its all part of the job. At anyone time you will be exposed to maximum 3 people for max 1 hour each because in the great marketing book they say that if you use more than that it puts off the punter. They would get payed if the day went ahead or not. You will be there for 6 hours so 18 * 3 * 20 quid an hour is about a grand which would have been payed anyway. So anything more than 5 punters and everything is payed for even if it wasn't anyway, which it is.

2. Sim time, its a 13amp fuse, the sim is maintained on a yearly contract and gets done however many hours it does. the bloke that runs it is on point one.

3. Rooms, they have to pay for them if its full or not.

4. The ****e food that the canteen puts out which must cost maximum 1.50 per person on the day.

So I reckon increase in profit for the day is £190 per person.

Go and walk into a modular school and ask them about there courses see if they ask you for 200 quid before they will talk to you.

The most likely thing you will hear is

school " when were you thinking of starting your CPL?"
student" well next week please"
school" sorry m8 you have no chance, we have 12 students booked in for CPL and IR in the next 3 months. Next slot is early Nov but if a few of them slip it could be Dec."
student " but I need to get it done quickly"
School " sorry but we have done that before and it's really not worth the hassel, it piss's our instructors off and our current student's off and we are not willing to drop our training standards to accomadate it"

And that was a conversation I heard at my IR school by the ops monkey, maybe not word for word but the gist is there.

Do you notice the lack of well it's 200 quid to sit in a sim for 30mins and have some crap food? No its this is what we can provide when we can provide it and no we arn't going to comprise just for the sale.

And for the chap from france. Flight to Heathrow then bus up to oxford then either local bus or taxi to the airfield. Allow at least 4 hours for the trip. taxi was 4 years ago about 30 pounds on a sunday.

Re-Heat

30th Jun 2006, 23:33

The Uni's learn't this about 10 years ago which was why all of a sudden they all started having interviews.
Complete ignorance - depends entirely upon course and university. Don't post uninformed fallacies.

Mad_jock - you are talking from your other end - OAT are not in fact raking it in and barely make a profit - see their accounts if you don't believe me.

Your post is full of uninformed rumour and hearsay, and if you expect those posts to change the minds of dedicated people who have decided that their training is an investment that should ensure that they gain the best shot possible at a jet job in minimum time, then it is your loss for obstinately not believing what has been achieved rather than their loss for investing in their future.

I think that one poster's comment of only 2 from his/her Feb graduation course not having a job speaks for itself.

Since you have no idea of capital costs, I hope I don't have to explain basic economics to you in future (PS I reiterate that their profits are pants).

mad_jock

1st Jul 2006, 09:04

Yes we are talking different courses and University's. Thankfully I have never studied at or worked at a Breeze block establishment (And please lets not have a debate about the current policy of pumping youngsters through degree courses for no job at the end, although it is very similar to this discussion). Please give me an example of a proffessional course who's Uni (for that subject) is in the top 5 in the country who doesn't Interview. It was learned very quickly that as soon as you increase the apparent difficulty of gaining a place not only did you get more people applied for the course but you also got a higher quality of applicant. The year we started it at the one I worked at the number of points each person had applying went up by 3-4 and the number of conditional offers accepted increased by 15%. Which meant the course instead of starting 10 low which it had for the previous 6 years started 5 over. Which is perfect because you always get about 5% drop out in the first term due homesick, not mature enough to live away from mum etc. After 2 years most of the students had better school grades than the RA's running the labs. And I don't think anyone failed the interview.

And actually I already know that I have no chance of changing the mind of a 18-24 year old. But my posts are actually directed at the parents who are going to have to stump up the rest of the money and who arn't as focused as the wannabie on I must fly whatever. If I can get them to see through the marketing BS it really doesn't matter if the wannabie thinks its a good deal. I can remember wanting to apply to the cabair sonsorships which I think involved you working as a FI for 3 years. It was quickly put to bed when i discovered that my parents house would be used as security. I didn't even need to ask to know the answer. And thank god I didn't 3 years living in a caravan.

Myself included at that age if a sponsorship deal came up that you could get you striaght into a 747 after 18 months of training but it required your sister to work in a sweat house in India making Teatowels for a year. There would still be people applying.

And I also know that OAT isn't raking it. It has to scrabble for every pound which is why they are now suddenly realising that these pesky modular types have money to spend as well.

I have in the past promoted the waypoint program. If you want the OAT on your CV I think it is a reasonably priced course. Your taught by the same instructors, you are flying the same planes, you have to stick by the same standards, your progress checks will be graded to the same level as an intergrated student. How come it costs 35K less?

approach320

1st Jul 2006, 13:00

My biggest worry about the scheme is what type of employment possibility are we talking about. When they say that it´s "Unlikely" that you won´t get employed after completing the course, are they really telling the truth? Is it really difficult to not get the job?

Concerning the tests: Anybody knows anything about them? Are the maths and physics going to be difficult? What about the memory test?
Anybody from last year?

THanks! And good luck!

raviolis

1st Jul 2006, 13:08

well I made up my mind... been invited to Stage 2 but I won't bother going. I rather spend my 200 quid + travel costs in a few flying hours, can probably buy 3 with that money.

Such a waste 'cause passing stage 1 was a tremendous effort.... but I'll just leave it for this time. Already spent enough money with CTC, only to get told I passed all the aptitude and maths test with high marks, but because I didn't play in a team at high school they are not sure about my team work skills LOL
So I guess I won't bother spending another few hundreds to hear that sort of corporate crap again !
;)

EGCC4284

1st Jul 2006, 13:45

Already spent enough money with CTC, only to get told I passed all the aptitude and maths test with high marks, but because I didn't play in a team at high school they are not sure about my team work skills

So why did they bother to invite to for the aptitude and maths test. At what point did they find out that you didn't play in a team at school.

Out of interest, how much money it total did you pay towards CTC for the test.

TraineeBiggles

1st Jul 2006, 16:09

Hi - is there anyone who applied last year and can give advice re-2006 selection process?:rolleyes:

raviolis

1st Jul 2006, 18:04

So why did they bother to invite to for the aptitude and maths test. At what point did they find out that you didn't play in a team at school.

Out of interest, how much money it total did you pay towards CTC for the test.

the aptitude and maths came first. The rest was an interview. Anyway that was slightly off topic. I'm just not the right kind of guy for those schemes i guess. I am enjoying training at my expenses and in my own terms at the moment. Doesn't mean I'm not a team player. Just more of an indipendent thinker... lol

CTC selection fee was 164 quid, plus travel and accomodation for 3 stages I reckon I spent in excess of 400.

EK4457

2nd Jul 2006, 02:27

Oh dear,

The OAT Modular gives 103 Flight Training Hours. The APP gives 220 hours. Feel the difference? Not that Im saying Modular courses arent good, they are just as good, but you'll need more money for more hours to bring it upto APP.. Add that money why dont you?

Ok. 100 hours block booked in USA/South Africa/Oz/NZ/take your pick. All for around £5k. I have been told by everyone that I know that these 2-4 weeks are some of the best of your life.

FACT: Modular gives you the same qualification, with more flying expereince, for 25k less.

Oh, and I think that of the 220 hours you mentioned above, around 40 are in the 'sim' (a fancy MSFS2004).

And part of the cost may be just for the extra job prospects I presume.

How much does a job prospect cost? 25k obviously.

Nothing is free. All schools have an assessment fee. There may be a profit in it, I do not know but it is not all "pure profit".

Errm, FTE do a free assessment. I know 'cause I did it (and passed but turned them down). Just for the record, FTE are well better than OAT. They have a pool.

@raviolis: Individual thinking isnt going to make you a pilot, you have to be a team player.

Thanks for the advice. What airline do you fly for agian? Somebody's been reading a glossy OAT brochure methinks.

Just to open your eyes to the industry a little, pilots can be whatever they want to be if they have 5000 hours on type. Ever worked with a Chief Captain? It's his way or the highway. Not much teamwork goes on unless he's in the mood for it.

I like the way that x3k5 and Re-Heat are offering advice on how to be a pilot to mad-jock. Who is, of course, a pilot.

EK

General Dread

2nd Jul 2006, 04:23

Some interesting arguments both for and against the scheme.

I put this question to the pilots out there:

Imagine you’re a "wannabe" again - would you go for this scheme?

Either

Yes, because......

or

No, because.......

:ok:

BitMoreRightRudder

2nd Jul 2006, 09:09

No. I'd go full time modular, choose the school that was best for me, in the area that suited me best and offered the most cost-effective training for my finances. The people who get on this scheme will most likely go straight onto a jet, however IMHO the scheme is overpriced in the current employment situation.

If things continue the way they are going, airline entry requirements will continue to fall. By the time these guys graduate to their 757 they may well be rubbing shoulders with new entry low hour guys who paid half of what they did to get their blue book, but it's horses for courses and the best of luck to all who apply.

scroggs

2nd Jul 2006, 10:15

I'm sorry, but I am fed up with children posting on this forum and assuming knowledge that they patently do not - and cannot - have. X3K5 is taking an enforced rest for a week or so to allow those who are actually in the process of contracting for flying training to do so without unqualified and unwanted interruption. And, if you wish to get OAT marketing hype preached at you, I'm sure you can do so without his help - and from people who might know what they're talking about!

Any other spotters and enthusiasts take note: you may observe, but do not interrupt.

Scroggs

scruggs

2nd Jul 2006, 10:26

Well scroggs...yes or no :ok:

scroggs

2nd Jul 2006, 12:44

No - I would go via the RAF. As I did 30 years ago.

Scroggs

scruggs

2nd Jul 2006, 14:12

Good answer!

sicky

2nd Jul 2006, 14:50

It's nice to hear an ex-RAF recommend going via the RAF then into commercial rather than the regular views that the RAF should be for life etc

Anyway...sorry, back on track...

Sharky12t

2nd Jul 2006, 17:35

Evening all,

Gratefull though I am for having pprune as an incredibly helpfull resource and having read this topic in great (far too much) detail I still can't shake off my concerns.

I've been invited to stage 2 and therefore find myself in a similar situation as what I suspect to be a fair few people on here.

So here's the clincher... Does anybody have the faintest idea how many places they will looking to fill. I strongly suspect that if there's only 6-8 places on offer that my hard earned and much needed £200 would be a total waist.

And so I'm of two minds, in my position money for a modular course is very hard to come by so I need to lay my fears to rest and get a fair idea of my chances of success. Am I gonna' regret not taking the chance?

Cheers for any info.

Sharky

Dave Martin

2nd Jul 2006, 20:13

Sharky,

I'm not eligible this year so all I can comment on was last year.

There were 12 applicants to the final stage of which 6 were required. I gather it is the same situation this year.

If you are well prepared then you have every chance of progressing and I saw recently the youngest and oldest candidates last year were 18 and 31 respectively. The first day is the standard batch of OAT tests, with some slight variations and a much higher minimum standard. You will know by the end of the day if you were successful enough to progress to the next day.

That in itself could be worth the £200 - to have reached day two is a pretty good sign and confidence booster, although to be knocked out at that stage would no doubt feel like a very poor investment of £200. The second day was good fun and the interview process nothing to be feared.

The best advice is to prepare. Think about your strengths and weakenesses, about what airlines are looking for, your involvement or knowledge of aviation and the industry and of course do consider what experiences in your life you can use to demonstrate your abilities. Get comfortable with making your points clearly and positively and you will walk in to the interviews and other aspects with more confidence.

Despite all that has been said here, it is a golden opportunity. Given the costs of aviation training, £200 spent now is a drop in the pond and given the choice between 3 hours flying time or this selection process I would recommend the later. At least if it doesn't work out, you'll know where you stand.

approach320

2nd Jul 2006, 21:09

Thanks for the info davemartin!!

Can you explain just a little bit more what the tests are like?

Thanks!!

Pilot Pete

2nd Jul 2006, 21:27

Full time modular, it's not about comparing like with like, it's about comparing the various routes available to the SAME QUALIFICATION. Do yourself a favour, save the money and put it down on a mortgage once you get your first job!;) I've have said it again and again, we are not in the post 9/11 times anymore; there are MANY jobs going now and even though it is still difficult with minimal hours, the requirements are starting to be relaxed as the demand starts to (slowly) outstrip the supply, especially for anyone with ANY commercial experience.

Well done Scroggs, I had got to the point of giving up trying to put a credible argument against the blatantly obvious 'indoctrination' of a few posters.

And for the record, I am captain with Thomsonfly.

PP

scruggs

2nd Jul 2006, 22:18

How do airlines view full-time modular against guys going down the modular route, but taking longer due to working full-time?

Cheers,
eP.

mad_jock

2nd Jul 2006, 22:58

You guessed it Modular.

I would recomend slightly away from Pete and say do your PPL in the UK at the weekends while working. Preferably as WWW has said in the past with a school who either does RAf cadetships or commercial training. Then Ground school distance learning with either Bristol or OAT. Hour building can be done either the Flying for Fun way of buying a share in a PFA type and doing it in Britain at the weekends /evenings. Or disappearing off to US/NZ/SA/Can etc in blocks. All while you are working and earning.

leave about 10-15 hours to do just before you start the commercial training.

Then complete your commercial training full time. Preferably decide if you are going to do the FI before and change your hour building before hand to get the 200 hours. Then get your IR after your have 5-600 hours instructing. Thus saving 15k for a bit longer. Or do cpl/ir/MCC full time in one go if you don't want to instruct.

On the subject of Instructing

Some people are suited to instructing some arn't. Personally I think it sounds better in an interview saying you always wanted to instruct and its was all part of your master plan than you did it because you didn't get a job afer 6 months. Without an IR you will proberly find it easier to get a job as a FI(R) because the owner knows your not going to piss off at a days notice at the wiff of an airline job. If you do instruct its very easy to let your IFR skills drop. Its better not to have them in the first place. Then when you really get into the swing of applying you have fresh skills and you are current.

you can get to the FI stage in about 12-18 months. There is nothing really expensive to keep current. After you have 1000 hours plus your into the next league of wannabies which has chopped the numbers down by a factor of 10. Then its time to spend the next 20k on IR and MCC to turn you into a marketable wannabie airline pilot. So in 24-30 months you will be CPL/IR/MCC/FI and 1k hours all for 40k you will have worked a year longer and have whatever FI pay you earned. Which won't be much but at least you will be getting some return.

Don't go near a JOC its pish save your money for sim practise the week before a sim check and also use some of it for err a certain persons or the other lady's day on interview techniques and CV prep. I don't know if either of the 2 people keep stats of success rates but I suspect that for the cost of one of these assement days you can have the same increase in your chance of landing a job as you can for the additional 25k.