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View Full Version : What's your view on VHHH tower ATC service


787dreamer
15th Jun 2006, 07:52
Feel free to comment on our service (Delivery / Ground / Tower / Zone) ... praise / complaint / question!

BusyB
15th Jun 2006, 12:05
Why doesn't the ATIS tell you if its single runway operation?
Thanks in advance for any info.

moosp
15th Jun 2006, 16:37
I guess you are involved with HKATCC. If so here goes.

I have yet to work out when the Ground North and Ground South are bandboxed and combined. When landing on, say 07L and going to the November stands I assume that 121.6 will be required so I pre-load it on finals. After landing tower gives me 122.55. It's a small thing but looking down to change a frequency on a fast turnoff is a bit of a risk.

Do you combine them at a set time, or is it purely on workload?

Another point on descent speeds. Phil has done a great job explaining this in his articles in the various company magazines, but there is still a place for refinement. If you can tell the pilot of a reduced descent speed at least 20 miles before his normal top of descent point, then he can re-program the Vertical Navigation and make the descent earlier. If we get the speed constraint as a reply to our "request descent" call, then its out with the speed brakes and there goes fuel and passenger comfort.

In the big wide world these are small points. I think you are doing a great job, and on a day of thunderstorms in a trough line combined with a red lightning warning, multicultural accents and MCM, SZX and ZUH all snapping at your tail, they don't pay you nearly enough.

Chesty Morgan
15th Jun 2006, 16:55
It's a small thing but looking down to change a frequency on a fast turnoff is a bit of a risk.

Don't do it then! Wait until you're at a safe taxi speed:ugh:

Sorry if it's slightly off subject

Glass Half Empty
15th Jun 2006, 22:41
Given the procedural approach to 07L/R seems to be reasonably tight why can you not leave folks to fly the procedure from Limes as per the route and speed control? If you are going to hack miles off the distance to go then at least warn us prior to the event. Given the variable distance to go track miles in HK why not follow the example of say LHR that inform you track miles to run at say 30 or so in order for you to plan your descent profile in good time rather than the bust a gut effort that appears to happen in HK (on 07 in particular) every now and again.

Team America
16th Jun 2006, 00:31
Silberfuchs,
Not that I am with ATC, but I assume reduce G/S by 20kts would mean while up at FL390 G/S 440kts goes down to 420kts and then reduce to 250kts would normally be given when on descent so .83/250 goes into the box (for eg).
The "Vacate Runway after landing" yes you are quite right, yet to hear ATC ask for an aircraft to comply with the ATIS and vacate the runway :}

(Will be interesting to see if it gets removed)

Knutsford
16th Jun 2006, 03:36
Just a few questions;

Why am I back at 180kts with 40 track miles to go for 25R with barely a cloud in the sky?

Why am I told to "maintain 180kts til 8 miles" when that is part of the published procedure for which I have been cleared?

Why is the girl in Tower panicking about a spacing on finals of 4.9 miles?

Why don't we just fly the published arrival for 07L with a spacing of 4 miles, instead of all this vectoring with 5 mile spacing? Surely the arrival rate would be the same but much easier to predict for all involved. With bollockings for those that don't comply strictly with the speed restrictions. Surely your job would be easier

Please, more sarcastic calls to China Eastern etc, they brighten my whole day.:ok:

ClearToLand
16th Jun 2006, 07:28
The "Vacate Runway after landing" yes you are quite right, yet to hear ATC ask for an aircraft to comply with the ATIS and vacate the runway :}
(Will be interesting to see if it gets removed)

Maybe you guys didn't really listen to the ATIS, it says "after landing vacate RWY as soon as possible" or "after landing vacate first high speed TWY available", this just prevents some idiots stay on the RWY as long as they want while the next landing is within 4 miles. :)

Dixi Normus
16th Jun 2006, 14:29
My favorite tower instruction: “ Behind landing, line-up behind”, almost a palindrome. ;)

moosp
17th Jun 2006, 01:11
And do they still deduct from your salary if there is a go-around on your watch, like they used to?

That might explain Knutsfords comment about, "the girl in the tower panicking about a spacing on finals of 4.9 miles."

Mr. Bloggs
17th Jun 2006, 09:26
Never judge a controller until you walked a mile in their shoes, or something of the like. Overall good job.

On the other hand, what about the pilots? When asked to slow to 210 from 250 due to traffic 5.5 miles and they take their time, which requires a vector to give spacing. When you are that close, ATC want the speed now, so throw out the anchor.

It can go both ways. Pilots must anticipate the ATC needs and the ATC must consider the capabilities of each aircraft. Also every company has different SOP’s.

It’s all about communication. Ask the pilots to slow down early so they can reconfigure the computers and the pilots can state the missed approach off 25R will be straight ahead (due to thunderstorms) earlier, and not surprising the controllers when the TOGA (Take-Off/Go-Around) buttons are pressed.

Example: Take off 25L heading eastbound (i.e. TPE, JPN). ATC need altitude not forward speed (FL 140 or above at “Trout”), so after leaving “Prawn” at 230 kts, keep the speed at 250kts and climb faster. When you gain enough altitude you will be cleared more direct, then go fast. Then again I may be wrong.

It would be nice to know if we knew everybody’s intentions, but this is not the case.

I remember having controllers in the cockpit for FAM flights, but how many pilots took up the controllers on their invite to sit in the Approach, Director, ATC seat?

When the wx is not suitable, take more fuel to hold and take the pressure off everybody.

Work together and help each other, sorry I forgot, we are Cathay pilots, every man of himself.

Ask the controllers how busy they are at 3-4 AM? Air traffic stops for no one. At that time I am keeping an eye on the circuit breaker panel, but don't tell anyone.

Bedder believeit
18th Jun 2006, 09:43
Having worked quite a long time in HK ATC both Kai Tak and CLK I thought I might put my bit in.
First BusyB. The ATIS should give a half hours warning that a change in RWY status is about to occur, ie from single to dual or vice versa. Sometimes at night when it's busy (around midnight) it might get left behind, because there is so much stuff going on, but it shouldn't.

moosp. If, when you are on final you hear the previous landing(s) given a certain frequency, that should provide a pointer, but as a generalisation, between 5.30pm and through to around 10.30 am the next day, all grnd will be on 122.55. Outside those hours, it will be a split between 121.6 & 122.55, depending where you are parking, and which twy you turn off. But please (unlike United and North West) don't change till instructed. They just about always c---k it up.

Glass Half Empty. Let me assure you that it is far more efficient given the nature of the approach paths into HK (particularly 07L/R) to vector than to let everyone follow the app procedure. Take the example of a "No 1" and we let the a/c fly the procedure, then every other a/c following in a sequence behind until there is a gap will be delayed by probably 2 minutes because of that. That may well accumulate to 20 or so arrivals each delayed by that time, and let me tell you, as time gores by and fuel becomes expensively more difficult to find.....I realise that people reding this will disagree with me, but I can assure you that this is the case. Let's face it, we are doing it day in and day out.

Silberfuchs. It is generally known in ATC that once a/c are put into holding patterns, you pretty much lose control of things from a fine tuning point of view. Sure if a big hammer is needed, like the Wx goes to hell, or there is some sort of emergency, or there is just excessive traffic, then holding is the answer, but generally speaking, vectoring and speed control suit most situations. I couldn't agree more with you re freq congestion, it is getting out of control. When I am instructing locals I spend my whole time telling them not to chase unnecessary read backs that will mean nothing anyway...but, I may as well urinate into a typhoon.

Knutsford. Each controller generally has their part to play in the bit of airspace that they are working, and sometimes what ATCO "A" tells you to do, is incongrous with what ATCO "B" needs. A good example is between Approach (119.1) and Director (119.5) All I can say is that it is not a perfect world, so put up with it. The system is trying to put as many A/c on final at a set distance given all the other factors involved, be they controller experience/competence, Wx, Rwy configuration, wake turbulence issues, airspace considerations and people that just won't play the game and do as they are told/expected. Also re your comment "why is the girl in the Tower", we have over 50 females rated to work in all positions in the tower. Your comment would be like me complaining about "The guy that flies the morning Cathay B747 flight to Tokyo" when there must be well over 200 Captains in CX that would qualify.

Dixi Normus. "Behind landing....behind" is the correct ICAO phraseology and should be used everywhere. The reason being that if the transmission is partly jammed, the word "behind" has a reasonable chance of being heard/understood by the tech crew, and we won't end up with some whizzo taxiing past the holding point with an a/c on short final. And believe me, it does happen.

Mr Bloggs. Thanks for the vote. The days of ATC's riding in the cockpit seemed to have vanished with the twin towers. Let's face it, the reallity these days is that very few new Controllers will get any meaningful jump seat experience. And take the case of HK where we are just training so many new locals all the time, most of whom have had minimal exposure to airline flying and really, probably only passing interest, and this aspect won't improve. I often wonder how many of the kids around now have any idea about different speeds (ground, indicated, true, MACH etc) and their effect on things. Really we are stuck with an environment where the job is increasingly done by numbers, and that's not going to change. It is a shame that we don't get the opportunity to have more drivers in the centre, but that is all pretty wuch a waste of time. I see groups of "Captains courses" being herded around the Tower and centre occassionaly and really the only worthwhile thing is for them to be able to plug in and have a listen to APP/DEP for an hour or so, but that isn't going to happen.

In closing, much of the time the voice that you are hearing is a controller under instruction. We are under enormous pressure here to on train people, and it isn't quick, and it isn't easy. Despite a controller starting to train on terminal radar (App, Dep etc) having been within the system for some six or so years, after 4 months of classroom and sim instruction, they will still take another 6 to 8 months of on the job training to be (hopefully) rated. And that is just the beginning!

LKF, here I come

moosp
18th Jun 2006, 13:14
Bedder, many thanks for that explanation. Most of the pilot/ATC frustrations are of the nature of "why do they do that?" when the reason is rational but not communicated between the two parties. When we hear of your reasons for doing things it becomes "Oh fine, now I know I can accomodate that".

I guess cost is given as the cause of the lack of communication opportunites between ATC and Pilots, but that is a fallacy as one good article from ATC(like the ones Phil Parker wrote for our in-house magazines) can save fuel and go-arounds.

CX's Corporate Safety section is well wired with people and expertise. They are the way to communicate with CX pilots as they are trusted and respected, and we read their output.

Glass Half Empty
18th Jun 2006, 22:13
Quite right Moosp. May be a question and answer session in KaiTalk would be a good idea.

OLBA18
19th Jun 2006, 09:42
Hong Kong ATC's are in my opinion very professional. However there is one local ATC chap who confuses the hell out of me by bracketing his instructions with the flight number, for example
" der dragon xxx, descend der, flight level xxx, heading der, xxx, for dragon xxx". So the last thing I hear is our flight number and the two or three instructions involving numbers are further back up the queue in my head. I'm sure this could be the reason his frequency is more cluttered with people asking for confirmation of instructions.

BusyB
19th Jun 2006, 10:30
BB,

Thanks for your response but I suspect you misunderstood me.

Either departing or arriving I would find it useful to know when single rwy ops are going to be implemented or whether they are in use. At present we get no info on this unless someone mentions it over the RT. It would give an idea of whether delays are to be expected in both cases. Notams are not always the appropriate way to find out at short notice and may be in error.:ok:

geh065
19th Jun 2006, 10:36
In general, after flying around in Asia, it is a pleasure to switch over to HK control. It does show that there are different experience levels however, as one controller can be very different to the next and as has been explained, this is not something I expect to change anytime soon.

Many of the small issues have already been mentionned and explained above, however there does seem to be more of a case of the left hand not talking to the right hand in HK than I experience in other places. I know that each ATCO looks at their piece of airspace but sometimes slowing to 250 in descent then being told high speed or VV results in a inefficient profile for us, sometimes exaccerbated by the low crossing heights at MANGO and MELON.

I know there are many women ATCOs but there is a local lady who has obviously been living in the UK for a long time who micromanages things to the extent it makes everyone much more busy, clutters up the frequency and generally elevates everyones stress levels. Are lots of 10-20kt speed reductions really neccessary? No-one else seems to do it.

generally speaking however, a job well done considering the number of carriers with questionable english standards. Got to love those UK and North American controllers with the sarcastic comments!! :ok:

gyro
20th Jun 2006, 13:31
When there are known extensive delays thru Dotmi, there has to be a better way to sequence the flow rather than waiting till doors are closed, "Ready" call given, then advised of an extensive delay. Believe me, the pax reaction to a 2+ hr delay is not good:uhoh: Some kind of advance notice of slot time perhaps? Fully appreciate the delay is externally driven, but there must be a better way for all involved.

Have to concur with the comments re approach vectors to 07, being held high, slowed down then shortened up generates very high workload (can hear the cynicism!!)

When requesting taxi after pushing back from W50, W48, the instruction is quite often to contact the other SMC freq for taxi. With a view to reducing the aforementioned surplus transmissions, why not include the freq txf in the pushback instruction? Eg "Strangled Lizard 892 push back red, 121.6 when ready to taxi"

My HKD1.20's worth, cheers to all.

moosp
20th Jun 2006, 13:52
On the point that has been raised at a users committee a couple of times, the chatter on Zone 120.6 can get wearing. I appreciate that you use it for training and so absolute correct procedure is being taught, but sometimes the repeated references to traffic in the ICARA's can defeat the purpose of Zone and Information.

If someone is trying to lift/deposit a dodgey load with his/her Lama off a pinnacle in a hooligan of a wind, the last thing they need is being required to answer to traffic information on a transit that is two miles and 1500 feet away. I know your are only following the ICAO procedures, but perhaps we should file a Hong Kong exception report and just handle Zone and Information as the controllers and pilots want it. ie see and be seen and use the mode C a bit more.

VR-HFX
21st Jun 2006, 12:36
I am with Silberfuchs on the holds....and I am also sick of all the vectors.

Bedder....I take all your points but humbly submit that you should do some work on using the holds as a more efficient method of crisis management, at least during the rush hours.

In the old days when we could read the tea leaves and think ahead we used to do it ourselves.

Study the data and work out how to use the holds...ultimately IMHO it would lower the stress levels for everyone.

That said...given the cards you are dealt, I doff my hat.

There is too much static on the ground but given the fact that, for most these days, English is not the lingua franca, I do not see how this this can be avoided.

As my old man used to impart...say what you mean and mean what you say...in as few words as possible.

HKG Phooey
21st Jun 2006, 12:58
how about auto transfer when airbore??? tower are no use for radar vectors so if you have a problem you dont want to speak to them anyways.... and when vacated.... auto contact ground..... (soon we will all know what the freq will be.....)

and....

letting more than 1 aircraft push at one time....


:cool:


oh and i dont really think HK is the problem.... how about fixing CHINA????

Bedder believeit
21st Jun 2006, 14:17
There seems to be a bit of angst regarding being either vectored to final or allowing the people in the front (computers?) of the airplane do it. If HK was a 360 degree airfield with no airspace limitations to the West, If HK didn't have up to 3400ft of solid rock running from the NE to the SE only 2 to 3 miles away, If HK didn't have a restrictive egress for departing aircraft off RWY 07 that will conflict with just about every arrival from the East and many others, if HK was only trying to manage a maximum demand of say 20 odd arrivals per hour instead of up to 40, If HK wasn't hemmed in to the South by Macau airspace, If HK didn't have to process arrivals and departures into and out of Macau that have a tendancy to conflict either with each other, or just about every other HK arrival and departure...should I go on(?) then, I agree, just letting the FMC (and pilot's) fly the approach would in all probability be the best option, However....This is not the case. Sorry, but the airlines demand via the Airport Authority that we steadily increase movement rates. Sometimes this will not be to our collective liking.

I feel very sorry for the people on the receiving end of some of the horrendous delays that are being given (with little or no notice) to departures to DOTMI and a lesser extent BEKOL. I am not trying to pass blame, but, it doesn't come from us.

As to having automatic frequency changes, one of the reasons for keeping departures on the tower frequency is so that if the departure goes shooting of to the South (as has happened when an aircraft was initially given a 07R sid, then changed to 25L for departure and not re programming the new 25L SID into the FMS and then making a huge turn towards PORPA/Lantau Peak as soon as auto pilot engaged), then the Tower controller will hopefully see the situation and take some sort of action. Mind you many departures are transferred at 500' to 1000' so this is negated somewhat.

I can't access one of the last comments, but since when did we have a situation where only one aircraft at a time was pushed back? Obviously if two aircraft are on adjacent bays, or a corner bay, then other bays will be blocked. One thing that grates with us is when people call ready for push, and we then move traffic around to suit that, and then they end up not being ready for some time. And believe me (Bedder) it happens all the time.

I am not trying to teach people to suck eggs, but I guess incidents happen, and a band aid is then applied, and people then say "where did that come from?"

moosp
21st Jun 2006, 15:23
After the brickbats, have a bouquet.

Tonight from Elato, cluster formation of four, one for Macau, all within ten miles trail. Speed variations given, descents given, by 250 we were all back at 290 knots or greater. A real professional job quickly executed.

Usual dog fight towards Limes, some from south, some from east, all sorted, lined up and trailed with minimum waste of space. Joy to watch. Then to complete the evening tower welcomed us back, leaving a warm fuzzy feeling.

And I guessed the ground freq. correctly! (see passim)

Pleasure doing business with you.

Mr. Bloggs
22nd Jun 2006, 01:39
Cathay Pilots are trained to anticipate the push back. If only one door is open (baggage or passenger), the trainers gets on you if you don’t anticipate (lack of awareness they say). I say, when the doors are closed, ask for push back.

So a push back is asked with a door open and is given. Behold a door does not shut and you ask why. Cabin attendants found a problem with seating or Ground handlers found another bag to be loaded. So now it will take a minute or so.

Now since all the Aircraft have been moved to suit you, you do not push back straight away.

My advise is don’t ask for push back until all the doors are closed (there are others using the same field). For the controllers, if you see someone asking for push back and the doors have not been closed (maybe hard to see the pax/cargo door) Ask if he is allowed to push back with a door open and if not wait until it is closed. Ask just to confirm all doors are closed. If not, yell at him. If they do not push back within 30 sec, stop the push until ATC can accommodate other aircraft and you move to the back of the line (penalty box thing in the States).

What is the difference between being “Ready” and “Fully Ready”? You are ready or you are not.

My personal opinion, I would rather get vectored. Don’t like being in a hold with 1000’ clearance with someone who could make a mistake on their altitude clearance. too many aeroplanes too close together. Rather do S turns, it keeps me awake. Seems it was said before, holds don’t optimize arrivals. I know it is very difficult to reach up the turn the heading button every 30 sec or so, but use your beer drinking arm, it is much stronger.

Been to LHR and they use the snake system after leaving Lambourne for Runway 27 and been to the States where they use the same “S” snake system. All at the same speed following each other in. One big happy snake. If you don't do what your are told, you get yelled at.

If you hear “Turn heading 265 and descend to 4100’, then 3000’ and 1500’ (Runway 07), you know you will be dropped in early. Seems the controllers will give you a 9-10 mile final, so prepare for it. Saves time from going to “Sokoe” and Limes”. You don’t have to dive to 1500’ when cleared, just intercept the the glide slope at 2600-3000’. Make life easier, have the gear down and a reasonable speed to intercept. Takes more mental work, but hell, you are Cathay Pilots, you invented flying. Seems some may have invented ATC also.

In the end, ATC are in a box, a small one to boot, so unless you are going to have a mid-air, let them do there job.

For ATC, what are some of the things you see pilots do, that we can do better (whining not included, we have that mastered)?

Bedder believeit
22nd Jun 2006, 07:51
To HKG Phooey, I forgot to mention in the response to your request for auto freq transfer on Departure. When RWY 07 is in use (the bulk of the time over the course of a year) the overshoot path for aircraft on RWY 07L ILS/D app is not quite separated from the SID Departure path for an aircraft departing RWY 07R. Therfore if an aircraft performs a missed approach on 07L, at the same time as an aircraft is becoming airborne off 07R, then both aircraft can be kept "in house" (in this case the Tower) so that a suitable vertical (and visual) separation can be implemented by the two concerned controllers (118.4 and 118.2) before transfer to Departures (123.8). Obviously two differing requirements might be: Situation 1. A heavy cargo aircraft overshooting on the North RWY against a lightish medium flight to nowhere climbing like a rocket off 07R, we may instigate an altitude restriction on the freighter, and get the light departure to expedite climb. Situation 2 would be the exact reverse. This is also one of the reasons why we are reluctant to approve requests for practice VOR/D approaches onto either 07L or 25R as the overshoot paths are both "Maintain Runway heading", and it means that we lose a departure slot. Whilst this in itself is not critical, the aspect of having to make the decision at such an early stage when you request the approach means that the system does not often know how many departures may be taxiing out. This may explain why you don't always get your request.

Five Green
22nd Jun 2006, 12:24
I actually prefer vectors to holding as well. If the vector is obvious enough ie you can plan the right vertical speed, then you can save fuel over holding. In a hold you will ( on average) be lower and the constant powering up around the corners does waste fuel. One thing that is handy and used elswhere when major vecoring is "number in sequence" helps you see the game plan. Yes we get by without that but it is noce on the bad wx days etc.

Take off 25L heading eastbound (i.e. TPE, JPN). ATC need altitude not forward speed (FL 140 or above at “Trout”), so after leaving “Prawn” at 230 kts, keep the speed at 250kts and climb faster. When you gain enough altitude you will be cleared more direct, then go fast. Then again I may be wrong.


Mr. Bloggs: The 744 at or near max TOW does not climb efficiently at 250 kts, the rate of climb still relates to best angle and best rate. Usually at max TOW best angle is still nearer to 280 than 250 therefore you will not climb any faster at the slower speed. That also means you will not reach altitude in any less distance/time and the draw back is that at 250 kts you use more fuel to get to altitude. Extreme winds asside.

I realise that the "after landing vacate the rwy...." is probably for the few rather than the many however the standing joke is "after landing" as that can probably be left out as you are not going to attempt it before landing ! Another insight to Cathay check rides regarding the above. You now get demerits for not hammering on the brakes and careening of first oppurtunity. Even if there is not someone 4 miles in trail !!! There is still no grey for some of our CTs

Also the speed control on the ILS plates. Can ATC wave that (ie "speed your discretion") if the spacing is not an issue as it does not fit with a really light weight arrival in the 744. Plus we are still having issue with getting our landing flap out by 1500 AAE and the speed control just confuses that.

Hong Kong is the only airport I know that you talk to "HKG departure" on "arrival" ?

The other day we were on our takeoff roll 07R when another 744 went around. Interesting to watch from up close and handled no dramma. Job well done ATC !

IMHO Cheers

NoseGear
23rd Jun 2006, 01:29
Bedder, can you tell me how/who to contact for a visit to the tower? I am keen to see how you operate up there, might even learn something!

PM me or post here if you feel like being inundated!

Nosey

Mr. Bloggs
23rd Jun 2006, 03:57
All I am saying is use best angle or 250, which ever is greater, to 14000 then you may get turned toward “Ocean” sooner then drive it to “Econ” climb. “Elato/Envar should not be a factor in a 744 to FL 290-330. A heavy 340 will definitely struggle.

Any ATC thoughts on this or is the thought process all shot to hell? What works best for ATC to turn early towards Envar/Elato/Ocean/Rasse, Altitude or Speed?

HKG Phooey
23rd Jun 2006, 05:42
see there is a reason for everything....... thanks.....

the diff between "ready" and "fully ready" thats easy.....

"fully"


:}

Viper2
25th Jun 2006, 13:30
I agree with GEH065. I fly from Macau and it is a big relief to get into HKG airspace out of China or Taiwan. Maybe it is a bit busy sometimes but so much better than anywhere else in Asia!

Oops ... almost forgot .... can we have the right base every time? :ok:

geh065
25th Jun 2006, 16:57
Mr. Bloggs, I have never been taught to request pushback before all doors are closed, nor do I see it very often at all the other guy request it.

Mr. Bloggs
28th Jun 2006, 09:57
Sorry but I have.

Five Green
28th Jun 2006, 11:12
As far as a know there is no requirement to use the phrase "fully ready" here in Hong Kong. Please correct me if I am wrong. I know that it is actually written in the pages of LHR's charts ! Always made me laugh similar to kinda pregnant. So I usually use the phrase "barely ready" ,"mostly ready" etc.

All kidding aside I would say that the push back delays can also happen unexpectedly such as a difficult tug, unexpected ground personal issues (tug driver not there is a common one!),broken shear pin, cabin issues etc so Mr Beddfer try not to be too harsh on us driver types. Maybe we should have an all ready call to the ground before we ask for push but that won't happen at CX we are still trying to sort out what to say and when, to check that our doors are closed !!!

Fully Finished, down off soap box

ClearToLand
29th Jun 2006, 11:59
On a slight tangent; Its is rediculous to be told "Youre No.2 to the Cathay 330 in front", when quite patently the Cathay in front is No.5 in the queue. That makes me No.6, not No.2.

These are mind numbingly useless words and both ATC and Aircrew are in err in this respect.

Not necessarily Siberfuchs, normally when we say "You're no.2 to the Cathay A330 joining from whiskey" means you are following/giving way to that Cathay, it doen't mean the departure sequence. If we tell you the departure sequence, we'll say "follow the Cathay A330 ahead, you're no.6 for departure"

bekolblockage
29th Jun 2006, 15:41
Ha! Thanks Suzie. That would explain why the Rec Room was full of expats between 12 and 2.:}

ClearToLand
30th Jun 2006, 03:06
Haha, but we held him at the holding point for a south lander.... :D

gyro
30th Jun 2006, 16:38
You only held him for one arrival....??? What about giving him the 2-4 HOURS his kinsmen are assigning us!!!!!! :mad:

throw a dyce
3rd Jul 2006, 12:37
I'm surprised they didn't diddle the TOIL for the tower guys 2 hour disappearing act..:ooh: Looks like nowt has changed across there. If it wasn't for the gweilos then the :mad: place would have never f:mad: ing opened.:ugh:
It's ok out in the real world,after escaping you know.:rolleyes: