The £10,000 question?

[smellysnelly2004]

Hello,

I had the selection tests second time round yesterday and noticed a few interesting changes but not in the test material.

Firstly, out of 58 people registered to sit the tests only about 27 or 28 were there - is this a direct effect of people researching the starting salary? (genuinely don't know if this normal turnout) Secondly the Q&A session with the ATCO was 95% about money and how you could possibly cope at the college whereas last time around the main emphasis was on ins and outs of the job and what a normal working day was like - things you'd expect candidates to ask when presented with an opportunity to talk to a valid controller.

Personally, I agree with the ATCO who did the talk (Chris from Gatwick - by the way, very helpful and honest) who said that although the 6 - 9 months would be tough, from there the rewards are enough to justify that time. However, there were a number of people at the test who clearly would not be able to manage on this money under any circumstances without a couple of years of preparation (family etc). Whilst it's unlikely, due to statistics, that these people would have passed all the stages surely there's an element of cutting off your nose to spite your face here, especially considering that the September course isn't full yet.
Whilst I personally can appreciate both sides of this argument it seems to me that in the not too distant future there could be a shortfall in candidates of sufficient quality to fill 4 courses of 50 students each year.

Whilst not wanting to fully re-ignite this debate i wanted to share my experiences!!!
:eek: :eek:

[anotherthing]

At the risk of having ATCOs refuting my statement by saying that trainees should think about the future and not the short term, I fully sympathise with anyone trying to get started as an ATCO with NATS.

Firstly, the pay issue - £10k is not a lot when you are having to provide accommodation in Bournemouth (about £100 a week), food, transport to the college (because public transport is virtually non existent) and have money left over to be able to go out with fellow students and enjoy a good night on the beers.

Although getting drunk and being turned down by the underage slappers in Berlins is not mandatory; it’s a great way to bond with your course mates and let off steam.

Old and Bold ATCOs who say that the money is not that bad, should think back to their days before making comment.

As for the course itself…. 4 intakes a year, with 50 students on them is in my opinion ridiculous. The College exists to provide trainee ATCOs to operational units. These units have a numerical requirement each year to enable to start making up from the shortfall of valid ATCOs (although management will claim little or no shortfall).

By cutting down on the course length and content, we are asking students to pass with very little help or good in depth background knowledge of the whole of Air traffic and not just a ‘tower only’ specialisation.

The managements way of getting the right number of people through is not by ensuring that the course is the correct length etc etc, but is done by throwing so many people at each course (50), that enough will hopefully get through the other side.

These poor people then have to validate; and this is putting more strain on OJTIs who have to teach people basics they should already have with regards to impact on other units.

However, do not let this put you off… it is a great job, and believe it or not, once you validate, it will all be worth it. It is a hardship you should not have to endure, and it is short sightedness (once again) by incompetent management, but unfortunately you are stuck with it.

Good luck with everything :ok:

[flower]

50 on a course is nothing , when i went through 60 was the average number.

[dbounford]

So out of the 50, how many will they be expecting to get through?

[mattcarus]

Presumably all of them, doesn't make much sense to go but not plan on passing...

How many actually pass is a different question.

[dbounford]

How many actually pass? On average.

[rodan]

It varies a lot from course to course. You're unlikely to get an accurate figure, I'm afraid, and the number of people who don't make it isn't something NATS recruitment likes to talk about. However, you shouldn't be worrying about numbers and percentages, since you aren't competing against your course mates. All you need to consider is whether you have the required natural ability, and whether you are working hard enough to pass.

[dbounford]

It wasn't that I was worrying about the numbers, I was just wondering whether there was any truth in the suggestion above that 50 people are put onto a course so that it is inevitable that a certain number make it through (i.e. putting 50 on the course may guarantee 30 ATCOs, putting 30 on a course may only guarantee 20).

[rodan]

Well, I don't see how else it could work. Certainly all 50 will be selected because they have the potential to pass the course, but it must be accepted that not all will. What the target figure is, I have no idea, but don't worry about it. If you all make the grade, you will all pass. The standards are set by the CAA, they are not adjusted by NATS to give them the correct number of passes (despite the fevered rumours about the 'numbers game' in the student common room when I was going through the sausage machine).

[niknak]

£10k per year is just under £28 per day, not a lot, but I survived on less, whilst having to support a family while I was doing my courses, all of which I paid for myself. There are quite a few others who went through the same ordeal.
Prices of most essentials are roughly equivilant to what they were then, (aside from ale and petrol :) ), and if you are careful you can make it work. There are a miriad of benefits available for families on low incomes, I know because I applied for them all, it's not much but it makes the difference.

Ultimately, you're not at the college for a long time and the benefits thereafter are worth working for.

I don't agree with CAA policy on the Cadet wage structure, but that's the way it is and no one is forcing anyone to take on the job.

Perhaps those who can't see beyond the initial salary shouldn't be in the job anyway.

[anotherthing]

Niknak -

This is 2006... when did you go through the colleg, and what was the cost of living??

Flower -you may have been on a course of more than 50 people - that was the way they used to be run.

It does not excuse the fact that they are upping the numbers at the college now because the courses are so shambolic that they need to throw large numbers at each course to ensure a decent amount pass.

It's an extremely poor way of compensating for courses that do not prepare students for real life controlling.

[Quincy M.E.]

It does not excuse the fact that they are upping the numbers at the college now because the courses are so shambolic that they need to throw large numbers at each course to ensure a decent amount pass.

It's an extremely poor way of compensating for courses that do not prepare students for real life controlling.

I have to say that if this is true it would be very annoying. Attending the course, though thrilled to be accepted, means a huge upheaval in my life and as such I would hope that I was accepted because they think I can pass, not to make up the numbers as described above!

[anotherthing]

Quincey -

Go to the college, do your best.... that's all you can do. The instructors are good and getting better (more of them remain valid at units).

What the company is doing, is cutting back on the amount of background knowledge trainees get i.e. a tower only controller has no real concept of how his or her actions can affect controllers at approach radar units and area units etc etc.

It is going to be the case that the OJTIs are gong to have to spend longer teaching what the college should already have covered.

If you are good enough, you will get through - in that respect it is no different from what has happened in the past - it's just that you may suffer from a lack of a good knowledge base.

Good luck with it and don't dwell on what is written here - this is more an issue with qualified ATCOs bemoaning the state of things and a perceived degradation.

Just concentrate on keepng your head down and getting through the college - it is worth it!!

[Quincy M.E.]

Allas clar

Cheers anotherthing, will do! I know it will be really tough but well worth the effort. :ok:

[aaaabbbbcccc1111]

It wasn't that I was worrying about the numbers, I was just wondering whether there was any truth in the suggestion above that 50 people are put onto a course so that it is inevitable that a certain number make it through (i.e. putting 50 on the course may guarantee 30 ATCOs, putting 30 on a course may only guarantee 20).

Potentially NATS would want you all to pass the college & the validation due to the amount of money it costs to train you (around £600K) & they need qualified ATCO's asap. Good luck, keep your head down & in your books and ignore all the rumours!!

[055166k]

Not all trainees will be expected to control aeroplanes forever. After validating at your chosen unit you may get selected for a management role in as little as three years....many important positions in nATS are filled with people who have had only the briefest shopfloor time.
It is a sad reflection that within nATS anyone who actually enjoys their job of controlling is looked down upon as a non-achiever.
At the college, don't be afraid to ask for an instructor's background......they not only talk-the-talk but have walked-the-walk.

[kraggy]

anyone know if the september course has been filled yet?

[Gonzo]

Not filled yet.

[Dances with Boffins]

It is going to be the case that the OJTIs are gong to have to spend longer teaching what the college should already have covered.


Actually the OJTIs are going to have to spend more time teaching what their management have agreed that they don't want the college to teach anymore.

Don't blame Hurn. We would be quite happy to do it, but the Units reckon they can do it better/cheaper. Looks like all those years spent knocking the college [not aimed at you 'notherthing:ok: ] may have just bitten a few people in the arse.

We are assured that all trainees selected for a course have been assessed to the same standard as has always been the case - i.e. all of them have a fair chance of passing if they put the work in. If all 50 pass, maybe we can knock off early for the year and get some time in on the beach. Or get a bonus. Or maybe not.

[Gonzo]

Not quite sure that's correct, DwB.

I think it was a 'corporate' decision. I can only speak for Heathrow, but AFAIK we weren't even told about the course changes until they happened, and ever since then we've wanted them to change back to what they used to be.

but the Units reckon they can do it better/cheaper

No we don't. In fact, if one examines the figures more closely, it's far more expensive! The number of trainee that have recently moved on from Heathrow with 500 hours of training behind them....factor in a watch of 8 OJTIs getting the quarterly payment, and now the hourly payment, and 13 months of the trainee's salary, not to mention all the resources involved in 'covering the gaps' (sim time, input staff, ATCO instructors (released from the line by AAVAs).

All that for a validation rate that's less than half of what it used to be.