Can't Red Ten use the bus?

[STANDTO]

Just a thought.

On saturday, last, The Red Arrows pitched up for their annual jaunt to the Isle of Man for the end of TT. The display was around four, and around 1300, the spare hawk was sat on the apron at Ronaldsway. Next to it was a DHFS Squirrel - which I presume was used to transport red 10 to Douglas to do the comentary.

I'll have the extra Hawk in case one goes U/S, but dragging a helo across the Irish Sea for a 3 minute flight to Douglas? The return taxi fare would have been less than 50 quid and because TT was effectively over there was hardly any traffic to worry about.

In these days of exceptional bean-countery, is this right? Discuss.

[BEagle]

I understand it is also used to recce the area before the display?

Anyway - so what? No big deal.

Something of the green eyed monster about your post.

[FJJP]

Not being in the loop, I can't give you the definitive answer. However, the Reds programme is invariably multi-site and on very tight timing. How long does it take you to get into an airshow? I suspect that it is done this way to avoid problems of getting stuck en route. The commentry is part of their show; telling the public what the Reds are doing and giving them odd details adds to the enjoyment. It's pretty standard for the big teams.

The costs will have been covered by the organisers through airshow income.

Beags, give the guy a break - his profile says he's a policeman...

[Spot 4]

Policeman:

More importantly, he is a taxpayer, and deserves respect when he wishes to see his taxes used efficiently. Beagle - How rude:

It would not have been beyond the realms of the organisers to have got him to the show on time (by road), and as the Reds displayed at IOM - Silverstone & Cosford over the weekend, how many Squiirels - pilots (with time off their primary duties in lieu I would assume) were used (abused) over the weekend.

The 'recce' debate is diluted by the fact that a Squirrel does not attend every show IIRC. A Red Squirrel in the future perhaps?

I saw one of the weekend displays and the lack of coloured smoke for most of the diplay replaced with what appeared to be browny grey smoke as opposed to white looked a mess.

[ShyTorque]

The obvious response is - should policemen get police cars - or should they walk? Discuss.

BTW, as far as paying taxes goes - isn't the IOM "Offshore", and not part of the UK - so what is this to do with a non UK tax payer?

[Widger]

Shy Torque....Nice One. Not often I defend the crabs but, in this case I fully support the team. they are one of the few PR positive elements the MOD has left so good on 'em!

[Wycombe]

....they must have transitted South pretty soon after the IOM display on Sat, as they came belting over my part of West Berks at about 1900L, heading South.

Not sure where they were off to, as their next show was due to be at the Grand Prix yesterday (for which I always remember them operating out of Brize).

Editted to get the time right: Thanks AA, was drinking beer and barbie-ing, so may have lost track of time somewhat!

[jindabyne]

STANDTO

I thought you were an Arrows fan - someone pi**ed you off ?

[airborne_artist]

....they must have transitted South straight after the IOM display on Sat, as they came belting over my part of West Berks at about 1800L, heading South.

Sure that wasn't 1915L, Wycombe? They were about 3 nm W of Benson at 1912, overflying (and trailing smoke) a private party for the owner (and restorer) of one of the few BoB aircraft that is airworthy. Great start to the evening.

[Widger]

Sorry but missed the bloomin obvious....buses don't float, unless Top Gear are involved, so a Taxi may have cost 50 quid but how long does the ferry to Douglas take?

[Winco]

standto
To answer your question, yes it was right.
The Arrows, whether you like them or not, are renouned for precision, and anyone with even the remains of a single human brain cell would know that as far as reliability on any UK road is concerned - you can forget it!

Can you imagine the furore if the Arrows failed to turn up because Red 10 got stuck in traffic? or his taxi broke down? heaven forbid.

Come on, leave them to do what they do best, show this country in a good light! There is little to be proud of, lets not shoot ourselves in the foot and give some spotty little civil servant an excuse to go digging.

The Winco

[greenhaven]

The DHFS Squirrel that supports the Reds is flown by CFS(H) out of Shawbury - part of their job description - in fact i'm sure it's mentioned in their Terms of Reference - is to support the Reds by flying around Red 10 to airshows various. It's already been budgeted for, so he has every right to be there, i guess.

[Green Flash]

Was the squiggle there on other buisness and was tasked to move red10 amongt other jobs? Helo studes on a landaway? SCT trip? Could be on the island for many other reasons.

Edited to add - must read previous post. Idiot caption re-set.

[Mad_Mark]

Sorry but missed the bloomin obvious....buses don't float, unless Top Gear are involved, so a Taxi may have cost 50 quid but how long does the ferry to Douglas take?

You need to slow down and actually read what has been written :=

Red 10 flew the spare jet to the IOM and parked it at Ronaldsway - therefore no ferry required. The Squirrel was used to fly Red 10 from the airport to the display in Douglas in order to give the commentary, a distance of 9.5 miles! With all those bikes there surely he could jumped on the back of one and do the journey in 10 minutes!

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Conan the Librarian]

There was a case abut ten years ago, where the Polish Display team made their debut UK appearance at Fairford for the Tattoo. They had the first slot on the Saturday (one day only for their contribution too) and missed it due to the bus from the Swinetown hotel being held up in traffic. Bet they had a good day around the bazaars though...

Conan

[STANDTO]

well, that stirred up the nest.

Few things to deal with here:

first of all: Shyte - you are out of order cutting and posting my profile. If anyone is that interested, and they are registered, then they can have a look. That said, I have never stated I am anything else than what I am these days, unlike some Walter Mittys.

Secondly, although we are an offshore jurisdiction, we are part of the British Isles and rely on our Crown for defence. We pay a wedge towards that. I was once a UK tax payer as well, so feel more than justified to ask questions as to how my buck is being spent.

Thirdly, I am a Red admirer, though not particularly excited by their display these days. their skill is however beyond question.

Fourthly, it wasn't an airshow, it was a single display paid for by IOM govt (so again as a taxpayer to them, I have an interest) It was at the end of TT when most of the visitors had left. Traffic was so light that I could have got red ten from the airport in plenty of time. In fact, if they had asked I could have probably arranged a pick up and transfer, especially if it would have saved the govt several hours of 'Squirreltime' (presuming that positioning, etc. was 'factored in' to the display cost)

fifthly, the squirrel comes every year, as did the Gazelles before them. That doesn't make it right.

sixthly, in respect of trying to police 15000 motorcycles on foot instead of in a car - well, I'll leave the educated masses to work this out.

seventhly, as a public and crown servant, I have to account for every penny I spend in pursuit of public protection. I expect others to do the same.

eighthly, I would love to see the Reds continue in perpetuity, but when everything isn't right in operational theatres, and money is being lavished just to get a commentator to somewhere on time, then personally, I think we have got our priorities wrong.

:ok:

[smithoag]

Sure that wasn't 1915L, Wycombe? They were about 3 nm W of Benson at 1912, overflying (and trailing smoke) a private party for the owner (and restorer) of one of the few BoB aircraft that is airworthy. Great start to the evening.

........& a cracking good sight they were too,from the village pub's beer-garden:ok:
Colin
oxfordshire Aviation Group
www.communigate.co.uk/oxford/oag

8th Abingdon Air & Country Show....6th May 2007
www.abingdonfayre.com

[Jeep]

Drawing attention to this and moaning about it leads to the Light Blue way. No you cant land at that airfield, because we wont pay the landing fees. No you cant go to that airshow as a static, because we are pleading poverty, and going will send the wrong message. The fun trips are getting fewer and fewer. Unless you fly for the TA of course. Oops, there is another bridge toasted.

[FormerFlake]

As much as would like to see more fun and perks for the boys and girls. I would rather see them get the basics in theatre.

I have seen too many request for vital equipment (even batteries for PRC112Gs!!) turned down to justify all that expense to avoid a pilot getting stuck in traffic.

And

I have looked out the window and seen too many coffins brought back from the gulf too.

If any doubt look at the 2 Hercules threads that are never far from the top of page 1.

[Confucius]

I always thought 'Red 10' was the callsign adopted by Ascot 5*** having been told to 'hold off' as it approached Akrotiri airspace at ~10:00Z on a Monday, having flown from Lyneham on the red-eye.

[ShyTorque]

STANDTO,

Fair enough, details of your profile now deleted, but I merely repeated what you put in the public domain, on a free public website.

As someone who previously contributed to your economy (I had banking in the IOM for some years), I'd hate to think of my hard earned money being used to buy swanky cars so policemen can drive around such a small island all year round. Presumably this could be done on a pushbike if walking isn't quite quick enough? :E

Perhaps you could be given a car just for really important stuff, such as positioning Red 10?

[STANDTO]

Thanks Shy. No offence taken.

Unfortunate that you never came to have a look at the box your money was kept in. The Isle of Man is 227 square miles, and has 500 miles of roads. a good number of these are derestricted with no upper speed limit. the communities are dispersed, and in order to provide them with first responder ability, have no option but to use vehicles. Also, unlike BWOS deals, we buy vehicles at hugely beneficial rates to ensure taxpayers money is spent wisely. You will be pleased to note however, that foot patrol is the default position and vehicles are merely a means to reach some of the outlying communities, and transport bad people. - oh, and provide a highly visible presence on roads where we still lose about a dozen a year.

I think you were referring to Sark.

I wanted to use air support to assist TT roads policing this year. Guess what - we couldn't afford it. Perhaps DHFS could give us a chuck up for the big centenary in 2007.:)

[STANDTO]

And swanky cars indeed!!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/Liberalis/b84114ee.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/Liberalis/f51e6a76.jpg

and there is a perfectly good explanation for the Rangey being on the wrong side of the road.

[ShyTorque]

Thanks Shy. No offence taken.
Unfortunate that you never came to have a look at the box your money was kept in. The Isle of Man is 227 square miles, and has 500 miles of roads. a good number of these are derestricted with no upper speed limit. the communities are dispersed, and in order to provide them with first responder ability, have no option but to use vehicles. Also, unlike BWOS deals, we buy vehicles at hugely beneficial rates to ensure taxpayers money is spent wisely. You will be pleased to note however, that foot patrol is the default position and vehicles are merely a means to reach some of the outlying communities, and transport bad people. - oh, and provide a highly visible presence on roads where we still lose about a dozen a year.
I think you were referring to Sark.
I wanted to use air support to assist TT roads policing this year. Guess what - we couldn't afford it. Perhaps DHFS could give us a chuck up for the big centenary in 2007.:)

Actually, I've flown over a few times - in a big green heli. With regard to those derestricted roads, rather than trying to cause trouble for the Reds, perhaps you would be better off joining in on the speed cameras thread :E

:)

[Zoom]

And the Scoobie is for.......?

[Roadster280]

And swanky cars indeed!!! and there is a perfectly good explanation for the Rangey being on the wrong side of the road.

Off topic - but -

a) It's not on the wrong side of the road, but the steering wheel is!

b) How come a "normal" UK mainland plate on the car (Bonnet scoop on a police car?) and a different one on the Rover?

c) The passenger in the car is looking a bit too happy in his work for my money.

[STANDTO]

Scooby is a demonstrator from those nice people at Subaru. That is why it is onthe UK plates. The Range Rover is one of a brace we have just bought.

As for speed cameras - no thanks. At the moment we find the human interface at the end of a Prolaser works just fine.

Shyters - we didn't meet in the toilets at Ronaldsway once did we?

(not as bad as it sounds viewers. The sight of a deperate Puma pilot trying to get access through his immersion suit was rather amusing :D )

Anyway. I think this thread has caused enough trouble. Long live aviation - especially rotary!

[ShyTorque]

Shyters - we didn't meet in the toilets at Ronaldsway once did we?
(not as bad as it sounds viewers. The sight of a deperate Puma pilot trying to get access through his immersion suit was rather amusing :D )
Anyway. I think this thread has caused enough trouble. Long live aviation - especially rotary!


No, I only had trouble getting it back in my immersion suit ;)

Your pilot was probably a Chinook pilot pretending :E

I agree with your two final sentences! Good fun though.....

[Beeayeate]

StandTo
I think you're shooting at the wrong target here. As has been said before the Reds do an outstanding PR job not only for the RAF but for the country as well. If you have issues with their procedural costings wouldn't it be more fitting to target the MoD, the beancounters, the fluffy tree-huggers, or your MP?

I can understand your feelings regarding the perceived lack of funding and logistics the troops experience in the current hot-spots but don't you think we should be able to do both!

. . . we could in the o l d days when we had a bigger Air Force. :E

.

[chevvron]

STANDTO: Do the organisers still have problems getting and paying for a helicopter ambulance for the TT? Perhaps if this was pointed out to the RAF, they might be able to use the Red 10 Ferry for something useful.

[Widger]

STANDTO,I am not sure you are being quite transparent in your assertations!(SP?). The Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom. Your ass belongs to the Crown as a Crown Dependancy, just as the Channel Islands are. The Crown is responsible for your Defence and that is where the MOD comes in. You have no say in our elected Parliament and as you have waived your right to be taxed by our fantastic UK Parliament, you have also no say in how it spends the UK taxpayers money. You state that you pay a wedge towards defence. If that is so, it will definately be the "thin end" and I would like to see banks tatements to prove it. You are most welcome to our protection from the Viking Hoards and we accept your thanks for our support to what is your country's second largest source of income!! I'm off to lunch....catch the flak later! P.S. Any jobs going???

[navibrator]

Secondly, although we are an offshore jurisdiction, we are part of the British Isles and rely on our Crown for defence. We pay a wedge towards that. I was once a UK tax payer as well, so feel more than justified to ask questions as to how my buck is being spent.


I doubt whether anyone here is responisble for the alleged allocation of one helo to support the reds. If you really do care that much about where your money is spent, I suggest you write to MOD London.

If you want opinions, then fine, But don't get defensive if they don't reflect your views. We are all taxpayers - well those that work are.

[STANDTO]

Chevv

We are doing OK for rotary these days. We have 2x355's for both race and practice week racer evacuation, and after someone noticed we had built the new hospital inside the course, we get a (very well flown) Bolkow for public medevac. Depending on how the next few months planning pans out, I am hoping to get a police machine as well.

Widg - sorry, almost full employment - and only 10-18% tax range:}

Nav - not defensive, just line casting banter.

[shawshank]

Gents

Lets lay off the Reds shall we. Red 10 is intergral to the flight safety of every display and has to be at the pre-flight brief and the display datum. The brief is the last thing the pilots do before kitting up and strapping in so you can see Red 10 has little time to get to the display location which can be many miles from their base for that display. There is no way the brief can be moved as the pilots require 100% concentration and Red 10 has to have the latest on what the team are intending to do.
At the display he not only provides comentary, but as an experienced display pilot he lets the leader know of any issues which may affect the display, things which may not be obvious to Red 1 as he is concentrating on leading 9 aircraft in close formation at low level pulling high G manouvers.

Yes a helicopter is expensive but nothing compared to the cost of a pilot, aircraft or the reputation of the team, and the helo crew will get training out of it aswell.

SS

[STANDTO]

I'll get me coat.......................................:ugh:

[Confucius]

Yes, lets stop having fun and taking the p***, after all the red arrows cure cancer, put an end to poverty and stop war around the world.

[Talk Reaction]

Shawshank, at last someone has said something sensible!! The cost in fuel, and that's the only extra cost is negligable compared to the whole and frankly don't you all think we should do the whole thing professionally and not look like we're making the best formation aerobatic team in the world travel by bloody taxi. Giving up their time, I think most pilots enjoy going to the odd airshow.

One final point, Red 10 is only little - not sure he should be on a bus on his own :ok:

[PPRuNeUser0172]

God what is the world coming to, I thought this thread was about the red's and then I come across a bunch of rotary mates talking about meetin each other in public toilets. Come on guy's there is a time and a place for things:E

Quote: "Long live aviation, esp rotary"

well it isnt really aviation is it;)

[ShyTorque]

We got the message the first time. Does your Mum know you are on the computer? :E

[brickhistory]

The Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom. Your ass belongs to the Crown as a Crown Dependancy, just as the Channel Islands are. The Crown is responsible for your Defence and that is where the MOD comes in. You have no say in our elected Parliament......

If you should find a merchant ship with tea in its hold, we can give some advice....

Well, it worked once before, didn't it?!

[Spartacan]

Ahhhh . . . The Isle of Man. The best kept secret in the British Isles !

[STANDTO]

Well, it was a secret, but now you've blown it. Everyone is going to want a bit. Jurby will be reopened, and due to the crystal clear airspace above, the Reds will be stationed there, so they can practice without running into Cranwell traffic. The whole thing has gone Pete Tonge:rolleyes:

[BluntM8]

To be fair, if Red 10 went on the bus, we'd save on the cost of a full fair. He could probably pass for a child, or at least an angry dwarf.

Hello, Mr R, if you're reading!

[[email protected]]

STANDTO,

You're not Nigel mansell are you? Come on fess up.

[STANDTO]

No, I am not Nigel. However, his old house is up for sale if you are interested

http://images.estate-software.co.uk/picresize?c=0761&o=001&f=DR5301.jpg

full details http://search2.estate-software.co.uk/(x0zelo4533wbh445vmv0ubfw)/details2.aspx?propertyID=464319568

If I had been Nigel, I would have been invited for a consolation ride by now:8 He has in fact left these shores and gone to run a golf club somewhere.

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

and there is a perfectly good explanation for the Rangey being on the wrong side of the road.did it swerve over there when that tyre went flat? :E


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/Liberalis/b84114ee.jpg




for some reason, after looking at those pictures, I'm really hungry for a piece of cake...

[Conan the Librarian]

Nope - that is just Rangey handling. If you want a good off roader, it will be crap off road. The reverse is true of the BMW X thingies.

Conan

[STANDTO]

actually, the perfectly good explanation is that I was there on purpose. The road was one way for most of the day - saves on head-ons - and I was reopening it on a rolling road block after a bump. Twas a perfectly executed maneouvre, much in the style of the Red Arrows, in fact.

They handle incredibly well. As long as you set the gear up with the tiptronic prior to the corner, and then drive it through, it just digs in and goes. No drama.

Excellent piece of kit

[buoy15]

What type of police dog is that sitting on the lap of the pax in the Rangey - looks like a sallukoi or Afghan Hound

[AlanM]

YES - Red 10 could take abus.

And the boys could start bombing countries by Tiger Moth, use camels instead of helicopters etc etc.

Sorry pal - but get a life. If it gives someone gets some hrs in their log book what's the problem??

Alan
UK Tax Payer extraordinaire

[heights good]

YES - Red 10 could take abus.
And the boys could start bombing countries by Tiger Moth, use camels instead of helicopters etc etc.
Sorry pal - but get a life. If it gives someone gets some hrs in their log book what's the problem??
Alan
UK Tax Payer extraordinaire

It seems a lot of guys are missing the point of how budgets are worked out and costed. At the beginning of the year DHFS have so many hours paid for, they have a year too use them otherwise they lose them. There will be other criteria such as so many pilots passing out at the end of the year, so much mandatory training to be completed etc. There are always spare hours, there has too be for such things as engineering, extra training, airshows etc. If a pilot wants too do training then there are hours allocated for this as well.

Now, does it really matter if he flies too Leuchars and back or the IOM and back? I would suggest the sensible answer is combine training with a bit of unusual tasking and help out a fellow aviator. The problem seems too come when people who are not in the loop or who are a fully paid up fun policemen decide its illegal too (heaven forbid) actually do something enjoyable. Or is the answer too attend the IOM solely as a taxi AND a land away at Leuchars. That is bound too keep the do-gooder, moany faced, penny piching, fun police tax payers happy, well till they find out we get cheap beer or some other equally heinous crime.

Anyway my rant is over.

Heights Good

[STANDTO]

and then there are others who miss the point of a thread completely:ugh:

Buoy, I had noticed that spurious reflection too. Unfortunate that it wasn't a bit more like god or someone, then I could have had the Range Rover listed as a grade 3 relic and charged people for rides. Mind you, the Vatican might have wanted it then for a popemobile.

Bombing countries? Who said anything about proper work? This is the Reds we are talking about:}

(retires behind low manx stone wall whilst fanning flames)